Shadowing - who/what/when/where/why

[estradiol9]

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I have completed one shadowing experience. I spent one day, 10 hours, in an emergency room. During this experience, I actually got to do some hands on stuff since I am an EMT such as taking vitals or blood sugar, assisting patients, etc. I spent time with each of the staff members including the attending physician, nurses, residents, etc.

Recently I sent out a bunch of requests to various physicians asking if I could shadow them. I actually got replies from two of them so far. (The two who replied work together in a cardiology group.) They said that I could spend a day with each of them. I've never had a shadowing experience where I was one on one with a physician. For those of you have, what was your experience like? Do you follow the physician everywhere? Have patients minded your presence? Did you ask a lot of questions? What types of questions did you ask? Did they let you do anything hands on?

Also, are more shadowing experiences set up like this? One day with a physician? What did you wear during your visit? (I am a female.) If you spent the whole day there, what did you do about eating lunch?

Sorry for the many questions but I am quite nervous about this experience!
Also, how many total shadowing hours are typically considered acceptable/desirable? (I already have over 1000 hours of patient contact experience so I am not looking for my shadowing experience to count towards patient contact hours or anything.)

 

[aSagacious]

Shadowing etiquette:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=622510
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=448852
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=705430
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=627843
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=201182

 

[captaincbr]

You can certainly ask many doctors if you can shadow them or not, but preferably, you want to shadow doctors specializing in fields you are interested in or want to learn more about.

Personally, I have shadowed many doctors in many specialities in many different hours. For example, I shadowed a family practitioner for two weeks everyday (9-5). I shadowed a surgeon for many many months, but every now and then (maybe 200-300 hours total?). The point is, there is no standard time to shadow. It is ultimately decided by you. If the doctor says one day and you shadow him or her for that day, at the end of that day, if you want to shadow more, you just ask for permission. Usually they are really cool about it so don't be bashful.

In terms of the actual shadowing, you literally stick right behind the physician wherever they go. If they are in surgery, you stand right behind him, maybe even taking a look at other staff and seeing how the team works. When they go to lunch, you should tag along too so you can get to ask him more questions about their lifestyle. Also, I tried to ask a question whenever I can because they usually don't have any down time.

Patients responding to you may differ wherever you go. In my experience, none of the patients I encountered did not mind me at all. If the doctor knows the patient and is a troublesome patient, the doctor will just tell you to sit in his office for that reason, and I had no problem with that.

Since I'm a guy, I don't know what else to say about attire other than business casual. It certainly doesn't hurt to dress up. It makes you feel good, makes you appear professional to others, and as a added bonus, you can use those clothes for your medical school or residency interview.

Finally, there is much debate about how many shadowing hours is acceptable. I would say at least 160 hours, but this is assuming you shadow for one full month everyday for the whole day. This really is a great experience because you actually see exactly what they do for one whole month. If you are not bored by the end of it, the specialty the doctor practices certainly would be one of your options when applying for residency programs.

I know aSagacious gave you links to shadowing etiquette, but I just wanted to throw in my two cents.

 

[MonkfishSushi]

I agree with most of the statements above except for the heavily debated topic of shadowing hours. 160 hours is A LOT of time--I doubt more than 15% of applicants have that much shadowing. With 100+ hours of clinical volunteering, 50+ hours of shadowing should be sufficient for most schools.

Remember during shadowing, your purpose is develop an understanding of what it means to a physician. Feel free to contest my opinions but 100 hours of shadowing with 2-3 different specialties is probably around the point of diminishing returns (as in more hours won't necessarily help you for medical school admissions).

 

[mtbtx]

Yes

 

[AnotherBioMajor]

I agree with most of the statements above except for the heavily debated topic of shadowing hours. 160 hours is A LOT of time--I doubt more than 15% of applicants have that much shadowing. With 100+ hours of clinical volunteering, 50+ hours of shadowing should be sufficient for most schools.

Remember during shadowing, your purpose is develop an understanding of what it means to a physician. Feel free to contest my opinions but 100 hours of shadowing with 2-3 different specialties is probably around the point of diminishing returns (as in more hours won't necessarily help you for medical school admissions).

Wow, only 100 hours of clinical volunteering? I have exceeded that by a lot... I was told 250+ hours.

 

[captaincbr]

I agree with most of the statements above except for the heavily debated topic of shadowing hours. 160 hours is A LOT of time--I doubt more than 15% of applicants have that much shadowing. With 100+ hours of clinical volunteering, 50+ hours of shadowing should be sufficient for most schools.

Remember during shadowing, your purpose is develop an understanding of what it means to a physician. Feel free to contest my opinions but 100 hours of shadowing with 2-3 different specialties is probably around the point of diminishing returns (as in more hours won't necessarily help you for medical school admissions).

I disagree. It truly depends on who you are shadowing. If you are shadowing a primary care physician, that would be plenty for you, but specialists are much different. I don't think 160 hours is a lot of shadowing hours. As a matter of fact, I think it's insufficient because I was shadowing a general surgeon, who also worked in the ER every now and then. I understand your point that you are shadowing to develop and understanding of a typical schedule of a physician, but there are just so many more benefits by allowing yourself to put more time in shadowing hours.

You have to understand that you're competing for a very limited space in med school against hundreds, if not thousands of other applicants. For some schools (ie. GWU), there's over 10K applicants for a roughtly 200 spots. If everybody did the sufficient 50 hours, you certainly won't stand out among the crowd. More importantly, I don't think that little amount of hours enable one to truly understand the work environment that doctors go through. However, if you can give me a good reason why 50 hours is better than 250+ hours, please share your thoughts.

 

[dohlo]

You have to understand that you're competing for a very limited space in med school against hundreds, if not thousands of other applicants. For some schools (ie. GWU), there's over 10K applicants for a roughtly 200 spots. If everybody did the sufficient 50 hours, you certainly won't stand out among the crowd.

If your plan is to stand out from the crowd with the number of hours you are shadowing, you are going to have a rough cycle...

Although I have never sat on a adcom, I have talked to a few people who are heavily involved at some of the top schools, and when it comes to shadowing, and clinical experience, its quality over quantity. Adcoms don't care if you have 50, or 250, they care about what you have gained from them, if you can talk about them.

Get enough hours so that you feel you have an idea of what being a doc entails, and then focus on exaggerating how life changing your 50 hrs of shadowing was in your PS. If you are enjoying it, keep going, but don't go to fill some random numerical requirement. Spend those extra 200 hrs studying for the MCAT if you are looking to "stand out"

 

[captaincbr]

If your plan is to stand out from the crowd with the number of hours you are shadowing, you are going to have a rough cycle...

Although I have never sat on a adcom, I have talked to a few people who are heavily involved at some of the top schools, and when it comes to shadowing, and clinical experience, its quality over quantity. Adcoms don't care if you have 50, or 250, they care about what you have gained from them, if you can talk about them.

Get enough hours so that you feel you have an idea of what being a doc entails, and then focus on exaggerating how life changing your 50 hrs of shadowing was in your PS. If you are enjoying it, keep going, but don't go to fill some random numerical requirement. Spend those extra 200 hrs studying for the MCAT if you are looking to "stand out"

I agree that the experience is quality over quantity. However, I believe that with more hours, you will gain the opportunity to retrieve those quality experiences. I too know some doctors who were in the adcom, and those who spent more hours tended to have a more quality shadowing experience. Sure, you can get that same experience with a fraction of the time, but not everybody can. Depending on the specialty and the location of practice, you may or may not see the different cases that allows the physician to utilize his or her skills. Just imagine if you shadowed a PCP for 50 hrs, and during those times, majority of the patients come in for a common cold (which is usually the case).

 

[estradiol9]

So do people typically send a thank you note after the shadowing experience?

Also, for a female, would it be okay to just wear black pants, a button up top, and flats?

 

[captaincbr]

So do people typically send a thank you note after the shadowing experience?

Also, for a female, would it be okay to just wear black pants, a button up top, and flats?

A thank you note certainly will not hurt. It's a very nice gesture, and will leave a good impression. As for your attire, those seems fine. Just keep it business casual. Most likely you'll be wearing a white coat, so you may not need to bring a jacket. This depends on where you are shadowing though.

 

[PD187540]

You can certainly ask many doctors if you can shadow them or not, but preferably, you want to shadow doctors specializing in fields you are interested in or want to learn more about.

Personally, I have shadowed many doctors in many specialities in many different hours. For example, I shadowed a family practitioner for two weeks everyday (9-5). I shadowed a surgeon for many many months, but every now and then (maybe 200-300 hours total?). The point is, there is no standard time to shadow. It is ultimately decided by you. If the doctor says one day and you shadow him or her for that day, at the end of that day, if you want to shadow more, you just ask for permission. Usually they are really cool about it so don't be bashful.

In terms of the actual shadowing, you literally stick right behind the physician wherever they go. If they are in surgery, you stand right behind him, maybe even taking a look at other staff and seeing how the team works. When they go to lunch, you should tag along too so you can get to ask him more questions about their lifestyle. Also, I tried to ask a question whenever I can because they usually don't have any down time.

Patients responding to you may differ wherever you go. In my experience, none of the patients I encountered did not mind me at all. If the doctor knows the patient and is a troublesome patient, the doctor will just tell you to sit in his office for that reason, and I had no problem with that.

Since I'm a guy, I don't know what else to say about attire other than business casual. It certainly doesn't hurt to dress up. It makes you feel good, makes you appear professional to others, and as a added bonus, you can use those clothes for your medical school or residency interview.

Finally, there is much debate about how many shadowing hours is acceptable. I would say at least 160 hours, but this is assuming you shadow for one full month everyday for the whole day. This really is a great experience because you actually see exactly what they do for one whole month. If you are not bored by the end of it, the specialty the doctor practices certainly would be one of your options when applying for residency programs.

I know aSagacious gave you links to shadowing etiquette, but I just wanted to throw in my two cents.

You know something, you just brought up something about "shadowing" as it relates to my college experience. I graduated with a bachelor's in Pathologist's Assistant, which is a very rare major on the bachelor's level. No surprise that I want to be a pathologist (perhaps medical examiner).

As part of my graduation requirements, I had to do a completely unpaid internship for a full year, 40 hours week, to gain Pathology Assistant experience (in 2005-2006). And I just thought to myself, WHY NOT USE THOSE HOURS AS SHADOWING EXPERIENCE AND FOCUS ON SIMPLE VOLUNTEER WORK FROM NOW UNTIL WHEN I APPLY TO MED SCHOOL?

I think I can just put that on my resume as "shadowing" experience (because that's what it was...rotating between 3 hospitals, always working with and around pathologists, attending tumor board conferences, etc.). Even though that was part of my grad requirements, I can still use that as shadowing, no? Even my college transcript has this listed as "CLINICAL EXPERIENCE PATHOLOGY ASSISTANT" worth 30 credits.

What do you think?


P.S. This really didn't involve any contact or interaction with patients, but I don't think that should harm anything. I got a chance to see medicine being practiced in action, I *literally* got my hands very dirty grossing specimens and helping out medical residents, I experienced the hospital environment, I interacted with multiple physicians (both the pathologists and surgical doctors when performing frozen sections), and I got a good feel for how the hospital system works. Isn't that enough for an adequate shadowing experience? I would think so....

 

[LizzyM]

Good for you! However, the road to the path lab (or the ME's office) goes through the clinic, the OR, the ER and the inpatient units. You are going to be expected to talk to patients and examine their living bodies. Getting a peak at that before you apply to medical school might be a good idea. Shadowing some surgical and non-surgical specialists and some primary care providers (pediatrician, general internist, OB) might be a good idea. Figure on one day (start of the day to the end) with surgical, non-surgical and PCP to get an idea of the environments you'll be in as a M3 and M4 student.

 

[PD187540]

Good for you! However, the road to the path lab (or the ME's office) goes through the clinic, the OR, the ER and the inpatient units. You are going to be expected to talk to patients and examine their living bodies. Getting a peak at that before you apply to medical school might be a good idea. Shadowing some surgical and non-surgical specialists and some primary care providers (pediatrician, general internist, OB) might be a good idea. Figure on one day (start of the day to the end) with surgical, non-surgical and PCP to get an idea of the environments you'll be in as a M3 and M4 student.

That's definitely a great point, Lizzy! I'll keep that in mind and try to seek out those opportunities if I can...starting this summer. I'm giving myself about a year to prep for the MCAT too lol...looking to take it in summer 2012. My bio and org. chem. need major studying...

But back to the shadowing...I'm wondering how I should go about trying to secure something like that. Do I just call up HR at the hospital and ask if they have anything like that? I'm really clueless as to how I can initiate a shadowing contact.

 

[LizzyM]

I'm really clueless as to how I can initiate a shadowing contact.

Some people cold call physicians' offices, others use contacts they have including personal physicians, the physicians of their loved ones (if you have grandparents, chances are that they have doctors), neighbors, the parents of friends or schoolmates, and doctors met through work or volunteer experiences. I presume that you've already been educated about HIPAA and you should mention that (it's a plus) when you contact doctors asking if you can shadow.

 

[PD187540]

Some people cold call physicians' offices, others use contacts they have including personal physicians, the physicians of their loved ones (if you have grandparents, chances are that they have doctors), neighbors, the parents of friends or schoolmates, and doctors met through work or volunteer experiences. I presume that you've already been educated about HIPAA and you should mention that (it's a plus) when you contact doctors asking if you can shadow.

Yep, I'm aware of the HIPAA regulations and the fact that I should have taken a TB test (which I have done in October of last year, so that should still be valid and I never traveled to a foreign country since then).

I'm going to plan on doing 6 to 8 days (48 to 64 hours) of shadowing sometime between this summer and next summer. Specialties I'm looking at are primary care (simple doctor's office), surgery, and ER/trauma if that's possible. I will also try to track down one or two pathologists I trained under in 2005-06 so I can talk to them and see if they have any connections to volunteer work. This may be difficult because the hospital system I trained in has closed down, so finding those pathologists may be hard, but I'll try my best to find them! (They were Indian, so I'm hoping they didn't high-tail it back to India when those hospitals closed lol).

 

[LizzyM]

the hospital system I trained in has closed down, so finding those pathologists may be hard, but I'll try my best to find them! (They were Indian, so I'm hoping they didn't high-tail it back to India when those hospitals closed lol).

The AMA Doctor Finder can be useful but to be most efficient you need a good guess of the State where they might be located. If you can narrow it down to one state or a couple of states, that might be your best bet.

 

[PharMed2016]

Good for you! However, the road to the path lab (or the ME's office) goes through the clinic, the OR, the ER and the inpatient units. You are going to be expected to talk to patients and examine their living bodies. Getting a peak at that before you apply to medical school might be a good idea. Shadowing some surgical and non-surgical specialists and some primary care providers (pediatrician, general internist, OB) might be a good idea. Figure on one day (start of the day to the end) with surgical, non-surgical and PCP to get an idea of the environments you'll be in as a M3 and M4 student.

I like your signature LizzyM.

 

[PD187540]

The AMA Doctor Finder can be useful but to be most efficient you need a good guess of the State where they might be located. If you can narrow it down to one state or a couple of states, that might be your best bet.

SUCCESS! I was able to locate one of the pathologists! I just hope she's actually at this particular hospital, so I'll call on Monday to inquire. I'm sure she'd be happy to hear from me and to arrange for a little sit-down chat! Oh this is excellent! 😀