shadowing?

[chrissyxf]

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So I've done a bit of reading on sdn about shadowing and it's turning out to be really important. just curious if it's something i really have to do if i'm already a physician assistant? any np's/pa's out there applying that aren't getting "official" shadowing time? I did all my rotations with physicians and I obviously work with several physicians now (interns, residents, fellows and attendings). help? thank you 🙂

 

[nlax30]

I would say you are probably set as far as clinical "shadowing" experience goes.

 

[hopefuldoc97239]

So if I understand this, you're a certified PA who's now headed to medical school.

To answer your question: I think in your case you can dispense with the shadowing. The purpose of shadowing (in my humble opinion) is to prove that you really know what the work of a physician is like... not just what you've seen on Grey's Anatomy. If you're a practicing PA-C, then you're probably set!

But now I'd like to ask you a question. What are you going to say when the interviewer says, "Why do you want to become a physician when you're already a PA?" I'm asking just out of personal curiosity. Thanks!

 

[Torr]

i would say you are probably set as far as clinical "shadowing" experience goes.

+1

 

[Holderlin]

troll?

"Hello I've been working full time as a hospital volunteer for the last 5 years. I was wondering if I still need to get volunteer hours?"

 

[RFHawks]

So if I understand this, you're a certified PA who's now headed to medical school.

To answer your question: I think in your case you can dispense with the shadowing. The purpose of shadowing (in my humble opinion) is to prove that you really know what the work of a physician is like... not just what you've seen on Grey's Anatomy. If you're a practicing PA-C, then you're probably set!

But now I'd like to ask you a question. What are you going to say when the interviewer says, "Why do you want to become a physician when you're already a PA?" I'm asking just out of personal curiosity. Thanks!

OMG. OP better have a good reason for switching... No, wait... OP better have a great-knock-your-socks-off reason for switching. Not just, "I want more pay or I want more responsibility." Switching from nursing to MD or DO is not unheard of, but many adcoms will scrutinize the reasoning behind the switch. Why? Because you are taking away training that could have been used for someone who truly wants that position as there are a shortage of nurses, PAs, etc. already. But switching from a PA to doc, many would frown on this as there are even less openings for PA students in this country than for nursing students. The only thing that I can think of that may warrant some change is that you REALLY feel passionate about surgery or something that a PA doesn't do. If you want to go into EM, IM, or peds, you have a more difficult challenge in presenting your case.

If you can't answer hopeful's bolded question and get reasonable responses here, you may have a pitiful chance at convincing an adcom. Why didn't you apply for med school before? Why PA instead? Do your best to answer these questions here and we may be able to spot problems in your app before you shoot yourself in the foot in the real deal.

 

[nlax30]

OMG. OP better have a good reason for switching... No, wait... OP better have a great-knock-your-socks-off reason for switching. Not just, "I want more pay or I want more responsibility." Switching from nursing to MD or DO is not unheard of, but many adcoms will scrutinize the reasoning behind the switch. Why? Because you are taking away training that could have been used for someone who truly wants that position as there are a shortage of nurses, PAs, etc. already. But switching from a PA to doc, many would frown on this as there are even less openings for PA students in this country than for nursing students. The only thing that I can think of that may warrant some change is that you REALLY feel passionate about surgery or something that a PA doesn't do. If you want to go into EM, IM, or peds, you have a more difficult challenge in presenting your case.

If you can't answer hopeful's bolded question and get reasonable responses here, you may have a pitiful chance at convincing an adcom. Why didn't you apply for med school before? Why PA instead? Do your best to answer these questions here and we may be able to spot problems in your app before you shoot yourself in the foot in the real deal.

I don't think this is really an "OMG" situation. While the OP most likely will be scrutinized some and asked why the switch, they are certainly not the first PA to have done this.

And I don't think you can say that they are taking away a PA training spot as they are already a PA.

Especially if someone is already working as a PA, I would give them a little more credit for saying that want a little something different out if their career and thus wanted to become a physician.

 

[katiemaude]

One of you seriously thinks chrissy is a troll? LMAO She's been posting here for months and has never said anything inflammatory.

As for her being grilled about her decision to switch, that's not what she asked. You really think she hasn't given that thought?

Also it's not the first time a PA has decided to switch. There is at least one DO program (Erie) that has a 3-year program for people just like her.

 

[RFHawks]

I was unaware of programs like that. I was told by adcoms that this kind of switching looks bad unless for a good reason. But I am curious now, LizzyM, what do you think about this kind of situation?

 

[MacVA]

It can't be that big of a deal; in my SO's class of ~150, there are 3 PA's/2 nurses and 2 pharmacists.

 

[PharMed2016]

OMG. OP better have a good reason for switching... No, wait... OP better have a great-knock-your-socks-off reason for switching. Not just, "I want more pay or I want more responsibility." Switching from nursing to MD or DO is not unheard of, but many adcoms will scrutinize the reasoning behind the switch. Why? Because you are taking away training that could have been used for someone who truly wants that position as there are a shortage of nurses, PAs, etc. already. But switching from a PA to doc, many would frown on this as there are even less openings for PA students in this country than for nursing students. The only thing that I can think of that may warrant some change is that you REALLY feel passionate about surgery or something that a PA doesn't do. If you want to go into EM, IM, or peds, you have a more difficult challenge in presenting your case.

If you can't answer hopeful's bolded question and get reasonable responses here, you may have a pitiful chance at convincing an adcom. Why didn't you apply for med school before? Why PA instead? Do your best to answer these questions here and we may be able to spot problems in your app before you shoot yourself in the foot in the real deal.

That's a question they always ask if your switching professions. But I honestly don't think its the end all be all.

To many people go into medicine for the wrong reasons and make it into school without really knowing what medicine is about. How? BSing their way in thats how, lol. At least you, OP, will be going in with a good idea of what it is about and I applaud your determination. 😉

 

[n3xa]

I don't think this is really an "OMG" situation. While the OP most likely will be scrutinized some and asked why the switch, they are certainly not the first PA to have done this.

And I don't think you can say that they are taking away a PA training spot as they are already a PA.

Especially if someone is already working as a PA, I would give them a little more credit for saying that want a little something different out if their career and thus wanted to become a physician.

No, the OP certainly isn't the first, but should be aware that it might definitely come up in an interview, should be prepared to deal with it, and shouldn't be surprised if an interviewer says that they took away a PA training spot because I've heard that answer before.

 

[RFHawks]

The way it was explained to me was that it takes time, money, and energy to train health professionals and these training facilities would rather spend that time and energy on training someone who will commit their lives to that profession, rather than someone who is just using it as a stepping stone.

But I admit, this is not an area that I know much about. Just anecdotal evidence from a few adcoms I've talked to.

 

[nlax30]

The way it was explained to me was that it takes time, money, and energy to train health professionals and these training facilities would rather spend that time and energy on training someone who will commit their lives to that profession, rather than someone who is just using it as a stepping stone.

But I admit, this is not an area that I know much about. Just anecdotal evidence from a few adcoms I've talked to.

And what would he use medical school as a stepping stone to?

That argument is more for why a nursing or PA school would not want someone who is ultimately interested in become a physician. I view that very differently that someone already working in the field who decides to go back and do something different.

 

[EdLongshanks]

The way it was explained to me was that it takes time, money, and energy to train health professionals and these training facilities would rather spend that time and energy on training someone who will commit their lives to that profession, rather than someone who is just using it as a stepping stone.

But I admit, this is not an area that I know much about. Just anecdotal evidence from a few adcoms I've talked to.

There is a difference between going from nurse to doctor than from PA to doctor. Nurse is not the same profession as doctor. PA is arguably the closest position to physician there is.

 

[JKinSC]

While not exactly the same, I had a similar question when it came to shadowing. I've been a CT/Xray tech for almost 18 years now, a job that entails exposure to literally every department in the hospital. When I asked the dean of admissions at my state school about the necessity of shadowing, I was told it was still necessary. No idea why, but I think that they really just want to be able to check that box on some form.

Regardless of it actually makes sense, I'd go ahead and do at least a little.

Just my .02

 

[nlax30]

While not exactly the same, I had a similar question when it came to shadowing. I've been a CT/Xray tech for almost 18 years now, a job that entails exposure to literally every department in the hospital. When I asked the dean of admissions at my state school about the necessity of shadowing, I was told it was still necessary. No idea why, but I think that they really just want to be able to check that box on some form.

Regardless of it actually makes sense, I'd go ahead and do at least a little.

Just my .02

I'd argue this is a little different. You are certainly exposed to many docs but you are not observing what they do throughout the day beyond you're interaction with them from being a tech.

A PA, for the sake of this discussion, is doing the same things a physician would do and in some cases is working intimately with them all day.... seeing patients, writing notes, surgery, writing orders, etc. They SHOULD already have a pretty darn good idea of what being a physician entails.

Now, if the PA has always worked in one specific field then maybe there's some utility to at least spending a little time with a physician in a different field to get some exposure. But I'd say that would be more for the PA's benefit than for application stuff.

 

[Holderlin]

While not exactly the same, I had a similar question when it came to shadowing. I've been a CT/Xray tech for almost 18 years now, a job that entails exposure to literally every department in the hospital. When I asked the dean of admissions at my state school about the necessity of shadowing, I was told it was still necessary. No idea why, but I think that they really just want to be able to check that box on some form.

Regardless of it actually makes sense, I'd go ahead and do at least a little.

Just my .02

This is the stupidest thing I've ever read. Adcoms must really be ******ed. They actually want applicants to acquire "clinical hours" in full knowledge that it is just a ridiculous charade carried out for the sole purpose of checking off a ****ing box beside some little brat's name.

I was starting to come to terms with the inauthenticity of this whole process, but I think this single post brought me back to my former contempt.

 

[nlax30]

This is the stupidest thing I've ever read. Adcoms must really be ******ed. They actually want applicants to acquire "clinical hours" in full knowledge that it is just a ridiculous charade carried out for the sole purpose of checking off a ****ing box beside some little brat's name.

I was starting to come to terms with the inauthenticity of this whole process, but I think this single post brought me back to my former contempt.

I wouldn't go that far just yet. See my post above.

Being an xray tech in a hospital does not automatically mean you have an idea of what being a physician really means and what their day is like. Granted, neither will shadowing for a day do that, but at least it shows you've spent some time with an actual physician and have some sort of clue of what the profession entails. It's also a good chance to get to ask the doc questions and seek advice.

I think there's at least a LITTLE to it beyond just checking a box on the application.

 

[EdLongshanks]

This is the stupidest thing I've ever read. Adcoms must really be ******ed. They actually want applicants to acquire "clinical hours" in full knowledge that it is just a ridiculous charade carried out for the sole purpose of checking off a ****ing box beside some little brat's name.

I was starting to come to terms with the inauthenticity of this whole process, but I think this single post brought me back to my former contempt.

Before making such a radical conclusion, you might wait to hear from someone who is not just speculating about the possible motivations of adcoms.

 

[lsu hopeful]

This is the stupidest thing I've ever read. Adcoms must really be ******ed. They actually want applicants to acquire "clinical hours" in full knowledge that it is just a ridiculous charade carried out for the sole purpose of checking off a ****ing box beside some little brat's name.

I was starting to come to terms with the inauthenticity of this whole process, but I think this single post brought me back to my former contempt.

Clinical hours are not an arbitrary "checkbox". It's such a valuable experience that it deserves to be a requirement. I'm sure someone on your block is making a killing selling tin foil hats.

 

[JKinSC]

Allow me to clarify a bit here.

I understand the difference between the job of a PA and my own--quite well, actually. And believe it, or not, I'm not really complaining about shadowing. I truly enjoyed it, and I did learn quite a bit more than I thought I would. I also think it should be required of everyone.

The point of my post was that given my clinical experience, which includes more exposure than probably 99% of all applicants (not because I'm better, just because I'm old🙄) I didn't think it would be necessary. The dean obviously felt differently. There were no questions about what I'd seen and done, just the assurance that it was necessary "to make sure you know what you're getting into." That is why I suggested that chrissyxf do some shadowing, even if it didn't seem necessary. In lieu of an in-depth question and answer session, I think the default answer will always be, "Yes, it's necessary."

As for my checking the box comment, I meant it quite a bit more tongue in cheek than it apparently came across. I absolutely feel that shadowing is an incredibly important experience for most, if not all, applicants. Again, I was just surprised that my experience didn't "exempt" me, for lack of a better word, from the requirement.

tl;dr
1. I didn't (past tense) think it was necessary;
2. I'm glad that the dean thought otherwise;
3. I think that some shadowing could be helpful for just about everyone.

 

[Holderlin]

Clinical hours are not an arbitrary "checkbox". It's such a valuable experience that it deserves to be a requirement. I'm sure someone on your block is making a killing selling tin foil hats.

Yeah because my post was really paranoid.

Before making such a radical conclusion

It isn't really a new or "radical" opinion that premeds running around trying to get "ECs" just to put on their application is a disingenuous game. But when I hear of a Dean of admissions prating the importance shadowing regardless of someone's experience around doctors and hospitals it's an indication that there is an element of mindless "box checking".

I've spoken to admissions people before as well and I've gotten the same recycled prattle, further validating my perspective, and cheapening the processes even further.

I'm sorry, but this is contemptible and disappointing to me. If this really offends people then I suggest some efforts towards disillusionment.

 

[lsu hopeful]

Yeah because my post was really paranoid.



It isn't really a new or "radical" opinion that premeds running around trying to get "ECs" just to put on their application is a disingenuous game. But when I hear of a Dean of admissions prating the importance shadowing regardless of someone's experience around doctors and hospitals it's an indication that there is an element of mindless "box checking".

I've spoken to admissions people before as well and I've gotten the same recycled prattle, further validating my perspective, and cheapening the processes even further.

I'm sorry, but this is contemptible and disappointing to me. If this really offends people then I suggest some efforts towards disillusionment.

It's much less offensive as it is absurd, although I may be missing your point. To check, what exactly does your phrase "prating the importance shadowing regardless of someone's experience around doctors and hospitals" mean? I may be misunderstanding this, since shadowing does not exist without an experience around doctors.

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

Here's the thing, does a PA have a pretty good grasp of what a doc does, yes, are they a doc? No, so there are job differences, as far as an X-ray tech, no way could you convince me that without shadowing you have a complete grasp of what they do. Do both X-ray techs and PAs have a ton of patient contact, you bet, is it a replacement for shadowing, no.

 

[EdLongshanks]

I've spoken to admissions people before as well and I've gotten the same recycled prattle, further validating my perspective, and cheapening the processes even further

When you find a process in life that is expensive enough for you, let us know. I hear that military is quite sensible, maybe you ought to try enlisting in the army for an enlightening experience.

 

[Holderlin]

 

[airborneinf82]

When you find a process in life that is expensive enough for you, let us know. I hear that military is quite sensible, maybe you ought to try enlisting in the army for an enlightening experience.

LOL, the understatement of the year!

 

[EdLongshanks]

LOL, the understatement of the year!

My son's enlisted army. He tells me stories.

 

[mauberley]

It's much less offensive as it is absurd, although I may be missing your point. To check, what exactly does your phrase "prating the importance shadowing regardless of someone's experience around doctors and hospitals" mean? I may be misunderstanding this, since shadowing does not exist without an experience around doctors.

I suspect the concern is that this implies that shadowing is the only way to gain clinical experience; also, if it's merely an item to be crossed off of a list, then someone completing the activity may not be really gaining the supposed benefit from it.

 

[n3xa]

 

[airborneinf82]

My son's enlisted army. He tells me stories.

Nice. I'm sure you hear plenty of interesting ones! I have done some of the coolest stuff of my life in the Army, but I have BY FAR done some of the stupidest things as well.

 

[chrissyxf]

Wow, tons of responses. Thanks to everyone for their input. I've been buried for the last 3 days in work, mcat stuff and organic chem buuuut I now have a free moment!
Katiemaude- thank you for your defense. I'm indeed not a troll and I utilize these forums regularly and hope that I offer decent advice when I see situations that are common to mine.
Hopeful doc, et. al. - yes, i understand that the number one question adcoms will ask is why this, why now...the larger story is the following (and may make this even more complicated): i was accepted into an 8 year medical program out of high school. i deferred a year following college because i was completely overwhelmed by the idea of being in academia for another 10 years and did not believe that i could be fully responsible for another's life. So I shifted paths a bit because I've always loved medicine- like reading textbooks in high school and working on the ambulance since i was 16- and chose pa school. Throughout PA school, I was always wanting more in terms of knowledge base but thought I could get past it in terms of what I was getting in return in terms of life style and all the other great things about being a pa. In any case, I started working at a university hospital and absolutely love being in academia and learning but i am extremely aware of my deficits and i'm craving more. But more than that, I've realized that the "lifestyle" I've gained is not really what I want. I'm very committed to my patients and spend something like 12 hours/day at work 5 days a week and I love every minute, even when I'm exhausted. I spend time with residents (they make up my friendship circle) and you know what, they have fun even though they work hard. And finally, I have built confidence in my skills as a clinician. I have amazing supervising physicians who give me a lot of independence. I run the consult service and get their input at the end of the day but most of the decisions I make are on my own but I like having the safety net...the key...i like having it- for now. An ARNP came to work with me and I could tell he was extremely frustrated. He had been practicing for years and you could tell he just wanted to more responsibility. Kinda opened my eyes. The few years I have to spend in training are minimal when you compare it to the number of years I'll have doing what I really love to do as fully as I am capable of doing. And lastly, I really do love academic medicine and want to contribute to it through research- it's a pretty hard to get a grant without an MD or PhD on your name 😉.
Bottom line: I needed more time off than I gave myself originally but I have no regrets. Everyone has their own life path, mine is just a little wiggly and I've grown a lot in the meantime. Sorry for the long winded answer!

 

[RFHawks]

For what it's worth, I think you have a great story behind your motivation for switching career paths. Good luck to you OP! I'll be rootin' for ya! 🙂