Shady behavior

[unsung]

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So... what shady behaviors have you guys encountered from your fellow classmates out on rotations?

I've been a little spoiled because most of my rotations I've had real great classmates. We helped each other out & we were all genuinely interested in learning the material.

Now... it's a new situation. This dude seemed real nice at first. I actually trusted him more than other people. But true colors are revealed. We all agree to show up at a certain time. It was agreed what work we'd all do. Well, dude shows up an hr early & gets credit for doing the work. Makes me look like a slacker.

Never encountered this before. I don't care what he does to ingratiate himself with the attendings/residents... but just don't do it at my expense, kwim? What's extra annoying is I think he thought I'd be stupid & happy & actually thank him for it.

I've noticed he's done little things similar to this to other people. Like, try to take their patients in the guise of "wanting to help out". (But of course, only wanting to help out when the residents are watching!). No one else has really caught on to this though... 'cuz he hasn't done anything quite this excessive to anyone else.

How do you guys handle stuff like this? Should I let my other classmates know about what happened? Part of it is, I think he feels like he can get away with it 'cuz the rest of us are kind of naive. And maybe he figures I wouldn't bring it up with anyone.

I hate drama, so I'm inclined to just leave things alone. On the other hand, I don't want to be taken advantage of.

I THINK I should just take the high road & let him shoot himself in the foot eventually. It's hard for me to hide my feelings though. Also, it grosses me out to see him take advantage of other people and have them thank him for it.

It's kinda sad when you can't trust people on rotations. I mean, in most other "job environments", you're not on constantly on the watch out for underhanded behavior from every single coworker.

How do you maintain trust in people without being too trusting?

 

[Valadi]

This guy sounds like a rotation gunner. Professionally confront him about it and after he weasels himself out with some excuse just know that if you want to upshine him you gotta come in 1 hour early and have more solid clinical knowledge than him. Be cool to your residents/attendings and that will go a long way. Not confronting him isn't a high road, it's an indicator that you don't mind being walked on.

Only way to beat a rotation gunner is to bust harder BUT be cooler and more professional (ie, don't throw people under the bus or steal patients). A great surface-to-gunner missile tactic I like to use is to comment to residents/attendings that X med student or Y resident taught you something that might benefit the patient. Your being a free-distributor-of-information team player will make the gunner look pretty weesh for his individualistic approach to care. Another good one is that when you have a cool finding, ask the attending/residents/and patient if you could show it to the other medical students on the ward.

Team Player + Knowledge >>> Gunner in the eyes of your graders.

 

[thepoopologist]

This guy sounds like a rotation gunner. Professionally confront him about it and after he weasels himself out with some excuse just know that if you want to upshine him you gotta come in 1 hour early and have more solid clinical knowledge than him. Be cool to your residents/attendings and that will go a long way. Not confronting him isn't a high road, it's an indicator that you don't mind being walked on.

Only way to beat a rotation gunner is to bust harder BUT be cooler and more professional (ie, don't throw people under the bus or steal patients). A great surface-to-gunner missile tactic I like to use is to comment to residents/attendings that X med student or Y resident taught you something that might benefit the patient. Your being a free-distributor-of-information team player will make the gunner look pretty weesh for his individualistic approach to care. Another good one is that when you have a cool finding, ask the attending/residents/and patient if you could show it to the other medical students on the ward.

Team Player + Knowledge >>> Gunner in the eyes of your graders.

I agree with this advice.

Don't leave it alone. If he's really making you look bad by coming in an hour early then you have to get there an hour and a half early.

 

[Mr hawkings]

Similar situation. We all leave for a 1hr didactic lecture close to but not quite the end of the day. Afterwards, we all agree together to call it a day and just head home since all the notes had been written. Find out later that one person went back and did the whole "is there anything i can help you with" routine with the residents for an additional 2 hrs behind our back, making it look like they were the only person who cared enough to come back after the lecture.
I am this close to paying them a visit at night with a sock with a bar of soap in it.

 

[OveractiveBrain]

Similar situation. We all leave for a 1hr didactic lecture close to but not quite the end of the day. Afterwards, we all agree together to call it a day and just head home since all the notes had been written. Find out later that one person went back and did the whole "is there anything i can help you with" routine with the residents for an additional 2 hrs behind our back, making it look like they were the only person who cared enough to come back after the lecture.
I am this close to paying them a visit at night with a sock with a bar of soap in it.

I have a couple of things to point out

1. Medicine is about teamwork. People who do "extra work" are appreciated. Because lets be honest, if someone shows up early, takes on more responsibility, and advances patient care, then they are doing great work. But that doesn't make a great student nor a great doctor. Its more important that there is teamwork. Unless you're on surgery, or your residents are *******es, they are going to see through the absence of teamwork and see him for the gunner he is.

2. When things "get decided" as the quote illustrates, it should be decided by the team, not by the students. If the students agree not to return after didactics and one does, then they are showing initiative. If the team says "don't come back" and the student does, that's irritating. Feeds in to number 1. Don't be afraid to get your residents involved in team decisions. It limits the gunner aspect. If we, as a team, decide to "be ready by 830" and the guy shows up at 630, it indicates to us that he needs two hours to see his two patients.

3. Except for the shallow, empty, self-concious residents, I have found that we are better evaluators than I gave us credit for when I was a student. Yeah, residents are human. Yeah, they succumb to tricks of personality and the whims of emotions. But on the whole, we see through the gunner. Interns talk to each other. Show your skill by doing the tasks assigned. When offered, take additional responsibilities. The pushy always-around student does not necessarily earn more credit for being present.

 

[dannyboy1]

Similar situation. We all leave for a 1hr didactic lecture close to but not quite the end of the day. Afterwards, we all agree together to call it a day and just head home since all the notes had been written. Find out later that one person went back and did the whole "is there anything i can help you with" routine with the residents for an additional 2 hrs behind our back, making it look like they were the only person who cared enough to come back after the lecture.

Most residents will see right through this. Remember these guys were med students just a few years ago and they know that if one person is sticking around after a late afternoon lecture he is just trying to look good at the expense of others. In fact the attitude of most residents I have met is that med students should leave as early as possible to take advantage of the free time that you will not have in residency.

 

[Mr hawkings]

I have a couple of things to point out

2. When things "get decided" as the quote illustrates, it should be decided by the team, not by the students. If the students agree not to return after didactics and one does, then they are showing initiative. If the team says "don't come back" and the student does, that's irritating. Feeds in to number 1. Don't be afraid to get your residents involved in team decisions. It limits the gunner aspect. If we, as a team, decide to "be ready by 830" and the guy shows up at 630, it indicates to us that he needs two hours to see his two patients.

.

I see your point.
And i feel like i would not have had a problem if if this student had said they were going back. My problem is with them saying they are going home and then going back. Thats lying just to make everyone else look bad to get ahead. Weve done so in the past. there have been times when the interns were swamped with new admits in the ER and we decided as a group to stay and do transfers of care and anything else that needed doing even though we had been officially dismissed by the upper-level. In those instances, some of us left later than others but no one was trying to make anyone else look bad.
This student did not go back to because they wanted to "help". They went back because none of the others were and they wanted to stand out and make sure they were seen.
I'm sure that if even one person had suggested going back, the whole team would have agreed and followed (maybe reluctantly).

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Most residents will see right through this. Remember these guys were med students just a few years ago and they know that if one person is sticking around after a late afternoon lecture he is just trying to look good at the expense of others. In fact the attitude of most residents I have met is that med students should leave as early as possible to take advantage of the free time that you will not have in residency.

👍

Won't lie, you do give us a good laugh and are the butt of our jokes for a good few days when y'all pull that shiit, in an attempt to "impress" us with your "initiative."

 

[coldleg]

A bunch of us were shipped off to an affiliate hospital about 40 min from our mothership for a rotation.

Wednesday mornings we were not supposed to go in, as this was our didactic day and mandatory lectures started at the same time rounds would.

Everything was fine until 6 weeks in, when 'darling med student' decided to skip the mandatory lectures and go in to round on EVERYONE's patients. It was reported by one of the interns that the exchange went something like this:

tern: "What are you doing here?"

darling: "Oh my god, where is everyone else this morning? this is so weird that I'm the only one here!"

 

[bucks2010]

A bunch of us were shipped off to an affiliate hospital about 40 min from our mothership for a rotation.

Wednesday mornings we were not supposed to go in, as this was our didactic day and mandatory lectures started at the same time rounds would.

Everything was fine until 6 weeks in, when 'darling med student' decided to skip the mandatory lectures and go in to round on EVERYONE's patients. It was reported by one of the interns that the exchange went something like this:

tern: "What are you doing here?"

darling: "Oh my god, where is everyone else this morning? this is so weird that I'm the only one here!"

lol ... obvious gunning is obvious.

I wonder what the distribution of rotation gunners looks like across med schools ... more common at higher-ranked schools, or more evenly distributed?

 

[deleted245139]

just playing devils advocate:

is it possible that sometimes a person just genuinely enjoys the rotation and likes to stay late/come early/help out? As was point out above, I'm sure genuine enthusiasm vs gunner attitude becomes readily apparent to the residents/attending, but maybe we peers we should be a little more willing to give the benefit of the doubt? I've experienced this from both sides... though for me it was Anesthesia. I was the only student on service so this is harder to compare, but i LOVED it. I was told I didn't have to come in till 8 but cardiac cases were at 7, so I started coming then. My attending offered to send me home at 1 or 2 every day but I stayed as often as I could (without being annoying).

I've seen some ass-hats on rotations, so this is probably more the exception than the rule but just a little food for thought 🙂

 

[astrocreep96]

I will admit to showing up early-ish compared to other students. Not to gun, but because showing up later opens up the possibility of a time-crunch and associated stress, and I would rather finish the work early and go get some coffee and a donut.

Maybe that looks like gunning to those running late all the time, but they don't share the morning coffee/donut goodness. Their loss.

 

[coldleg]

just playing devils advocate:

is it possible that sometimes a person just genuinely enjoys the rotation and likes to stay late/come early/help out? As was point out above, I'm sure genuine enthusiasm vs gunner attitude becomes readily apparent to the residents/attending, but maybe we peers we should be a little more willing to give the benefit of the doubt? I've experienced this from both sides... though for me it was Anesthesia. I was the only student on service so this is harder to compare, but i LOVED it. I was told I didn't have to come in till 8 but cardiac cases were at 7, so I started coming then. My attending offered to send me home at 1 or 2 every day but I stayed as often as I could (without being annoying).

I've seen some ass-hats on rotations, so this is probably more the exception than the rule but just a little food for thought 🙂

Glad you asked Janus. Going into med school, I accept the inevitability of overbearing type A personalities... the neurotics, the overachievers, and the way-too-cheery-for-5am-ers. That is just who they are, the way god made them. Hell, for the most part the admissions committee was probably looking for that sort of thing. They aren't out to hurt anyone, their intentions are good, and the only detriment to myself really depends on how much coffee I've had before engaging them.

The difference between these people and those mentioned the above posts is intent. The overachiever might come in an hour early, but the true d1ck will round on everyone's patient, and correct you in the middle of a presentation. They have no soul, and will cut you down to gain the slightest advantage. That is where we draw the line- when you need to get ahead at the expense of others.

Hope this clears up a few things. Cheers!

 

[DarkHorizon]

Glad you asked Janus. Going into med school, I accept the inevitability of overbearing type A personalities... the neurotics, the overachievers, and the way-too-cheery-for-5am-ers. That is just who they are, the way god made them. Hell, for the most part the admissions committee was probably looking for that sort of thing. They aren't out to hurt anyone, their intentions are good, and the only detriment to myself really depends on how much coffee I've had before engaging them.

The difference between these people and those mentioned the above posts is intent. The overachiever might come in an hour early, but the true d1ck will round on everyone's patient, and correct you in the middle of a presentation. They have no soul, and will cut you down to gain the slightest advantage. That is where we draw the line- when you need to get ahead at the expense of others.

Hope this clears up a few things. Cheers!

Lol, I can't even comprehend how big of a waste of time it would be to round on everyone's patients, it takes me hours to round on my own handful. I love my teammates and have never had to dealt with this behavior but if a student interrupted in the middle of my presentation to correct me, they would get destroyed, doesn't matter who the audience is. Also, I am sure residents will also be pissed at them seeing someone else's patient and wil be scolded accordingly.

 

[MDwannaBe81]

How about the db med students that pimp YOU in front of people that evaluate you?

I had this one person do this a few times to me on my first rotation. He'd discover some new information the day before and he'd ask me in front of the residents if I knew the answer, knowing that I of course did not know because the question was either obscure or just random. In my head, all I could think was "you motherf**in' a--hole".

If you're smart, by all means, flaunt your little tail off, but not at the expense of your other classmates please.

 

[DarkHorizon]

How about the db med students that pimp YOU in front of people that evaluate you?

I had this one person do this a few times to me on my first rotation. He'd discover some new information the day before and he'd ask me in front of the residents if I knew the answer, knowing that I of course did not know because the question was either obscure or just random. In my head, all I could think was "you motherf**in' a--hole".

If you're smart, by all means, flaunt your little tail off, but not at the expense of your other classmates please.

I would have straight up destroyed them in this situation, in front of the residents no less.

 

[235009]

1. Medicine is about teamwork. People who do "extra work" are appreciated. Because lets be honest, if someone shows up early, takes on more responsibility, and advances patient care, then they are doing great work. But that doesn't make a great student nor a great doctor. Its more important that there is teamwork. Unless you're on surgery, or your residents are *******es, they are going to see through the absence of teamwork and see him for the gunner he is.

can u elaborate on why you singled out surgery there

 

[MDwannaBe81]

I would have straight up destroyed them in this situation, in front of the residents no less.

I was too shocked to do anything the first time. And completely dumbfounded when it happened the second time. I just made some kind of smart ass comment like "No, I don't know the answer, but since you seem to know everything, why don't you just go ahead and tell me." Before he could answer, I turned my back on him and the group and walked away.

I guess I just don't know how to handle these kinds of people. It's very immature and appalling to me. Got any tips just shy of punching them in the face?

 

[Valadi]

I was too shocked to do anything the first time. And completely dumbfounded when it happened the second time. I just made some kind of smart ass comment like "No, I don't know the answer, but since you seem to know everything, why don't you just go ahead and tell me." Before he could answer, I turned my back on him and the group and walked away.

I guess I just don't know how to handle these kinds of people. It's very immature and appalling to me. Got any tips just shy of punching them in the face?

Sorry mate, but that is the wrong way to handle it. You turned your back on him and your residents and walked away? Yes, it wasn't appropriate for him to pimp you in front of residents, but your response was also immature.

You would have been much better off trying to reason an answer on your own, or asking if he saw a case involving it. Instead, you signaled to your residents that your buttons can be pushed easily as opposed to being cool as ice.

He's a little kid saying, "I know something you don't know," so why are you getting riled up about it? Just humor little Jimmy and move on instead of saying, "Well I don't even want to know, so there."

 

[MDwannaBe81]

I would have straight up destroyed them in this situation, in front of the residents no less.

Sorry mate, but that is the wrong way to handle it. You turned your back on him and your residents and walked away? Yes, it wasn't appropriate for him to pimp you in front of residents, but your response was also immature.

You would have been much better off trying to reason an answer on your own, or asking if he saw a case involving it. Instead, you signaled to your residents that your buttons can be pushed easily as opposed to being cool as ice.

He's a little kid saying, "I know something you don't know," so why are you getting riled up about it? Just humor little Jimmy and move on instead of saying, "Well I don't even want to know, so there."

You are definitely right. However, I think my response was more passive aggressive than immature. Of course I did not include all the details...this occurrence happened when the group was transitioning to a new location so my exit was not as dramatic as it seemed.

Furthermore, residents know me as very professional and courteous. I don't ever portray myself as immature in my actions (at least that's what I'm getting from my evals). I just want to know of a sane way to treat crazy peers that have no idea how to interact with others in a working environment. Again, I'm not used to this level of immaturity. Could I be less passive aggressive...sure...but then I may have to cut a B*tch and I don't want to do that. I have too many student loans to pay off...I can't go to jail. 🙂 🙂

 

[MossPoh]

We have a different model and don't really see classmates often, so I'm not as used to seeing this stuff. Some of these situations do need the other side of the story though. To simplify it as the person going in after saying they wouldn't, so they are obviously a funner a-hole is a bit much. Maybe they didn't agree or felt pressured to agree, maybe they have a patient they like and wanted to check up on, maybe they just enjoy the experience, maybe they are trying to make you look like an ass. Who knows? One's perception of another's intentions aren't always correct. How they go about doing the work is a bigger indicator. The "teacher, teacher look at me! Aren't I great?" type interactions are usually painfully obvious and evaluators aren't blind to buttkissing for the sake of it versus working hard/extra out of interest.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

LOL this reminds me of what I heard was happening on our surgery rotation...during presentations this particular student would speak up and attempt to pimp the presenting student as if he/she were an attending etc.

Unfortunately, the attendings and residents seemed to be almost amused by this behavior and allowed it to continue long after it should've stopped.

 

[45408]

2. When things "get decided" as the quote illustrates, it should be decided by the team, not by the students. If the students agree not to return after didactics and one does, then they are showing initiative. If the team says "don't come back" and the student does, that's irritating.

Students should be honest with each other. If the students all decide not to come back, and someone does anyways, then that's being a backstabber. Just tell them all that you're planning on going back.

Everything was fine until 6 weeks in, when 'darling med student' decided to skip the mandatory lectures and go in to round on EVERYONE's patients. It was reported by one of the interns that the exchange went something like this:

tern: "What are you doing here?"

darling: "Oh my god, where is everyone else this morning? this is so weird that I'm the only one here!"

I promise that makes the "darling" look like an idiot, at best.

though for me it was Anesthesia. I was the only student on service so this is harder to compare, but i LOVED it. I was told I didn't have to come in till 8 but cardiac cases were at 7, so I started coming then. My attending offered to send me home at 1 or 2 every day but I stayed as often as I could (without being annoying).

I think that true interest shines through, and people like working with students who are interested in their field. Once you've been told twice to go home though, you should just leave.

 

[MilkmanAl]

Unfortunately, the attendings and residents seemed to be almost amused by this behavior and allowed it to continue long after it should've stopped.

That's probably because they were amused. Nothing wrong with a little schadenfreude from time to time, right?