Shocking fact. Did you notice?

[Kiroro]

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Please check out these two links from AAMC and compare the MCAT status of Asian and White applicants and their acceptance rate:

Accepted student # link:
http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2004/applicants2004.pdf

MCAT score link:
http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/examineedata/sum2003.pdf

Did any other Asian premeds out there realize the shocking fact that although Whites and Asians have exact same MCAT scores (even essay scores) but acceptance rate of Whites were above 52%, while Asians were below 48%.
Although 4% difference may not seem much but if you take the huge number of applicants into consideration 4% actually represents hundreds of students.

Obviously, not only the MCAT but also GPA is very important factors in med school admission and above fact may seem biased but it seems AAMC have recently changed their statistics website and they do not post the GPA data of Applicants any more (or at least I couldn't find it). However, I distinctively remember that when I visited the site months ago, Asians and Whites GPA were nearly identical every year (Asians may have been slightly higher due to the higher Science GPA). If anybody still knows where these GPA datas are, please check if I am right....

Anyhow what shocked me the most is that I really didn't expect that Asians somehow are much more disadvantageously selected compared with Whites. I mean aren't they both considered as majorities and should be pretty much equal in the competition? Then, where does this difference in acceptance rate come from?
Your thoughts? 😕

 

[Law2Doc]

I may be confused but I'm not sure how the MCAT averages have any bearing. The average MCAT score is not a competitive score for medical school. I don't believe we have any way of knowing what kind of distribution around that average there is. To demonstrate some sort of discrimination (if that is your thesis), I think you would need to show scores of those actually admitted/denied...

 

[SanDiegoSOD]

A 4% difference may not even be statistically significant. But even if it is, the acceptance differential is not high enough to me to be alarming. As you said, the MCAT is not the only thing that ADCOMs look at. If I were to hazard a guess, I would say that it is worth no more than a third of one's application, leaving a number of possibilities open as to the cause of the difference. Besides, Asian applicants will have a much higher percentage of non-US citizens applying, which puts those students at a significant disadvantage, while few whites will be applying as foreign students. I would hardly call this situation shocking.

 

[WatchingWaiting]

Please check out these two links from AAMC and compare the MCAT status of Asian and White applicants and their acceptance rate:

Accepted student # link:
http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2004/applicants2004.pdf

MCAT score link:
http://www.aamc.org/students/mcat/examineedata/sum2003.pdf

Did any other Asian premeds out there realize the shocking fact that although Whites and Asians have exact same MCAT scores (even essay scores) but acceptance rate of Whites were above 52%, while Asians were below 48%.
Although 4% difference may not seem much but if you take the huge number of applicants into consideration 4% actually represents hundreds of students.

Obviously, not only the MCAT but also GPA is very important factors in med school admission and above fact may seem biased but it seems AAMC have recently changed their statistics website and they do not post the GPA data of Applicants any more (or at least I couldn't find it). However, I distinctively remember that when I visited the site months ago, Asians and Whites GPA were nearly identical every year (Asians may have been slightly higher due to the higher Science GPA). If anybody still knows where these GPA datas are, please check if I am right....

Anyhow what shocked me the most is that I really didn't expect that Asians somehow are much more disadvantageously selected compared with Whites. I mean aren't they both considered as majorities and should be pretty much equal in the competition? Then, where does this difference in acceptance rate come from?
Your thoughts? 😕

Fundamentally, I don't think a 52% versus a 48% difference in admission rate particularly significant. An obvious explanation is that Asians tend to be highly concentrated in California and a few other places which tend not to have easy state schools to get into. Alabama, Missouri, and many other states that tend to have fairly low numbers of Asian American students and fairly high numbers of white students, also have easier-to-get-into state med schools that don't accept out-of-staters. That differential, number of Asians residents of states with easier-to-get-into med schools as compared to number of white residents of states with easier-to-get-into med schools could pretty easily explain that gap. There is also the possibility that white applicants have slightly better extracurricular activities or better statements of purpose. Also, I think the white undergrad gpa is actually slightly higher than the Asian undergrad gpa.

It is a pretty minor difference when you get right down to it.

 

[Kiroro]

Fundamentally, I don't think a 52% versus a 48% difference in admission rate particularly significant. An obvious explanation is that Asians tend to be highly concentrated in California and a few other places which tend not to have easy state schools to get into. Alabama, Missouri, and many other states that tend to have fairly low numbers of Asian American students and fairly high numbers of white students, also have easier-to-get-into state med schools that don't accept out-of-staters. That differential, number of Asians residents of states with easier-to-get-into med schools as compared to number of white residents of states with easier-to-get-into med schools could pretty easily explain that gap. There is also the possibility that white applicants have slightly better extracurricular activities or better statements of purpose. Also, I think the white undergrad gpa is actually slightly higher than the Asian undergrad gpa.

It is a pretty minor difference when you get right down to it.

Yeah, you have a good point.

I never thought about the location factor. Maybe that's what it is then.

I feel a little better now 😳

 

[DoctorFunk]

I'm not sure if this idea holds any water, because I don't have the time to do the necessary demographic research, but it seems to me that there might be a disparity between where your average white applicant and the average Asian-American applicant resides. Could it be that there are a select few states that have a large number of Asian-American students in addition to a greater number of medschool applicants (e.g. I gather California may fall into this category), thus making it more competitive for Asian-Americans to gain acceptance at schools within this state? Meanwhile while whites do not have a greater percentage of acceptances than Asian-Americans within e.g. California, their overall percentage is bumped up by the whites applying from the Midwest, who are able to take advantage of preferential admission to residents.

In summary, I think the argument of widescale discrimination and racism is weak unless one is able to prove that this discrepancy is found within the majority of schools and geographical areas of the country. I, for one, doubt very much that this would be the case.

 

[velo]

A 4% difference may not even be statistically significant.

well that's an interesting question, and I'm bored.

I ran the chi squared and I got p<0.0001, so the difference is highly significant. Are asians being discriminated against? Probably not, and you can't tell based on this alone; there are a lot of considerations that go into an acceptance, but clearly some factor is making their acceptance rates significantly lower than whites despite comparable MCAT scores.

 

[Quentin Quinn]

I'm not sure if this idea holds any water, because I don't have the time to do the necessary demographic research, but it seems to me that there might be a disparity between where your average white applicant and the average Asian-American applicant resides. Could it be that there are a select few states that have a large number of Asian-American students in addition to a greater number of medschool applicants (e.g. I gather California may fall into this category), thus making it more competitive for Asian-Americans to gain acceptance at schools within this state? Meanwhile while whites do not have a greater percentage of acceptances than Asian-Americans within e.g. California, their overall percentage is bumped up by the whites applying from the Midwest, who are able to take advantage of preferential admission to residents.

In summary, I think the argument of widescale discrimination and racism is weak unless one is able to prove that this discrepancy is found within the majority of schools and geographical areas of the country. I, for one, doubt very much that this would be the case.

Over one-third of those that identified themself as Asian-American in the 2000 U.S. Census were California residents... yeah, I think location plays a factor!! http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/c2kbr01-16.pdf

Other states with a high percentage of AA population include Washington, Oregon, Hawaii, Alaska, New York, New Jersey, Mass., Maryland, Illinois, and Minnesota. These are all extremely difficult states in which to gain admission to med school, save for perhaps Hawaii (not sure on that).

 

[Kiroro]

Over one-third of those that identified themself as Asian-American in the 2000 U.S. Census were California residents... yeah, I think location plays a factor!! http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/c2kbr01-16.pdf

Other states with a high percentage of AA population include Washington, Oregon, Hawaii, Alaska, New York, New Jersey, Mass., Maryland, Illinois, and Minnesota. These are all extremely difficult states in which to gain admission to med school, save for perhaps Hawaii (not sure on that).

I'm just very glad that Florida is not one of them... 😛

Speaking of CA, I heard academic competitions in school is really rough there, no matter universities or even high schools. I have an Asian friend there and he told me that it is really due to large number of east Asians students in the school and that Asians are dragging him down. That's kinda sad....

 

[cfdavid]

A 4% difference may not even be statistically significant. But even if it is, the acceptance differential is not high enough to me to be alarming. As you said, the MCAT is not the only thing that ADCOMs look at. If I were to hazard a guess, I would say that it is worth no more than a third of one's application, leaving a number of possibilities open as to the cause of the difference. Besides, Asian applicants will have a much higher percentage of non-US citizens applying, which puts those students at a significant disadvantage, while few whites will be applying as foreign students. I would hardly call this situation shocking.

Good point. It's way more likely that Asian applicants be foreign than Whites. (non-Hispanics).
I don't know too many young German's coming here to study medicine. Maybe a few hundred years ago, during a very different demographic of immigration.

 

[Daichi Katase]

well that's an interesting question, and I'm bored.

I ran the chi squared and I got p<0.0001, so the difference is highly significant. Are asians being discriminated against? Probably not, and you can't tell based on this alone; there are a lot of considerations that go into an acceptance, but clearly some factor is making their acceptance rates significantly lower than whites despite comparable MCAT scores.

dude, you are a NERD!


hehehehe. I like saying that

 

[cfdavid]

Please accept this for what it is. I'm truly not trying to start anything here. I had a few asian, and east indian friends in high school. I had a lot in college. Good friends.

One thing that I did notice though, is that not many of them grew up playing team sports or having too many other ec's. Is this because schooling is perhaps emphasized more strongly than the average American? (I said average, not all)

For instance, many of my asian or east indian buddies (mostly guys) went to private schools or at least were very competitive students in my public high school (academically). But, seriously, not too many were involved in team sports or ec's that I could tell.

What's up? Or is it just my, admittedly, limited experience. I'm from Michigan and we do have many Korean Americans and East Indian Americans here.

 

[dara678]

Good point. It's way more likely that Asian applicants be foreign than Whites. (non-Hispanics).
I don't know too many young German's coming here to study medicine. Maybe a few hundred years ago, during a very different demographic of immigration.

It's more likely, but it's not likely enough to account for the 4%. Asians who are applying to med school are most likely Asian-Americans, because for one thing most medical schools DO NOT accept ppl who are not US residents or have a permanent visa. I have never once, in my interviews, met someone who was foreign and applying. Nor do I have anyone who is a foreign student who is in my class. While I think there are some, it's not likely that the 4% is caused by that. It's more likely the 4% is caused by the location difference, as discussed before.

I think it's a really bad preconception that Asians who live in the US are all immigrants ... a lot of young ppl here were born here and have a right to be called American just like everyone else. They shouldn't automatically be thought of as foreign. 😡

 

[45408]

cfdavid - a lot of Asian families put great emphasis on academics, and I've been told by some that in places like India, if you're not going to school to be an engineer or a doctor, you're "wasting your time."

 

[bidster]

I think it's a really bad preconception that Asians who live in the US are all immigrants ... a lot of young ppl here were born here and have a right to be called American just like everyone else. They shouldn't automatically be thought of as foreign. 😡

This is a good point, but at the same time, I think cfdavid raises a good one as well. While a lot of Asian-American kids were born and/or raised in the US, many of them (outside of California, where there is a longer history of Asian immigration) have parents who immigrated in the 60's, 70's, and 80's. The largely "academic success or bust" values that came with those parents didn't vanish the second they got to America--they passed on to a lot of Asian-American kids grew up with that pressure. I grew up in that environment (Indian, specifically), and even though my parents are relatively liberal, I remember having to convince them as early as middle school that it was possible to study AND do stuff outside of schoolwork. It was also telling when I once caught my mom using air quotes around the word "anthropology" (my major).

This is not to say that Asian applicants are doomed to one-dimensionalism, but a lot of kids do grow up with some resistance, and I know several cases in which that resistance crosses into controlling.

 

[fotolilith]

It's amazing that people still look at the numbers and see black and white (or Asian and white).

Medical schools are building TEAMS. Just like a football team cannot function is every player is a quarterback, a medical school would not be serving the public if every doc that came out of it was Asian/ White/ etc. Therefore, they try to balance the percentage of applicants they take, based on the numbers that apply.

Medical schools in the US have a duty to society to produce competent physicians who will serve in a variety of fields/ areas. Obviously if they admitted everyone who was the same, every one of those med students would go into one field (ie, like the stat I've heard quoted that only 5% of Asians go into Internal Medicine, which has been seeing a sizeable dip in residents in the last 20 years).

The ONLY way to raise the percentage of Asians who are accepted to medical school is to LOWER the number of Asians who apply. As some people pointed out, these trends are also related to geographic location: ie, California has a huge number of Asian applicants, and a lower percentage of those who are accepted.

So, the fact that medical schools want to produce fairly even percentages of docs from different backgrounds is in NO way alarming.

What IS alarming is that med schools STILL cannot balance the specialties and backgrounds these days: someone from an urban area is 3 times more likely to be accepted than someone from rural areas, and rural acceptances have gone down 40% in the last 20 years. I think that's far more shocking than this whole race nonsense.

Med schools gripe about how few people go into primary care these days, but they fail to admit that med students often self-select for their specialties before they get to professional schools.

 

[Twitch]

To throw another set of numbers in the mix here is by race the physicans that graduated from the 7MD & 1DO school in Texas and are licensed:

WHITE 80.3%
BLACK 2.2%
HISPANIC 8.1%
ASIAN 7.0%
INDIAN 0.3%
UNKNOWN 2.1%

For a complete breakdown by school here is the link:
http://www.tsbme.state.tx.us/demo/docs/d2004/0904/mg.htm

This probably doesn't help the OP's argument directly, albeit interesting nevertheless in the sense that hispanics are considered URMs yet have a higher # than other minorities, though this being TX, does explain this since it tends to have a higher number of hispanics.

 

[exilio]

Shocked? Hardly. It's not just about the scores. To be honest, I am suprised it's even that close. The interview, essay and EC's go a long way to getting in.

So quit trolling and take your "controversy" elsewhere.

 

[Premedtomed]

cfdavid - a lot of Asian families put great emphasis on academics, and I've been told by some that in places like India, if you're not going to school to be an engineer or a doctor, you're "wasting your time."

there are some economic reasons behind this. The system needs a change and it
will as those nations get economically stronger/more prosperous
As for Asian Americans not playing sports that depends
Check out Harvard's tennis team profile.

 

[4 Ever]

Shocked? Hardly. It's not just about the scores. To be honest, I am suprised it's even that close. The interview, essay and EC's go a long way to getting in.

So quit trolling and take your "controversy" elsewhere.

i cant think of anyone with crappy GPA and MCAT scores that had great essays, EC's and interviews that was accepted.

last I checked, schools give an avg MCAT and GPA for matriculated students and not how many EC's they have or how well their essays are written. Whoever says that MCAT and GPA is only 1/3 of the whole acceptance should look into it further

 

[Kiroro]

Shocked? Hardly. It's not just about the scores. To be honest, I am suprised it's even that close. The interview, essay and EC's go a long way to getting in.

So quit trolling and take your "controversy" elsewhere.

Hardly anyone get into a med school with just a good essay and EC’s without good GPA and MCAT scores. Besides, do you honestly think people who worked so hard for good GPA and MCAT score are gonna miss out on some personal statement essay, volunteer work, and some easy undergrad researches? Not likely.

As I responded to some earlier posts, I do think the difference in the acceptance rate is largely due to the different demographics in different states but I really don’t think that essay and EC have anything to do with it. Besides, on what base are you assuming that whites write better essays and have better EC’s than Asians? At least my assumptions were based on some numbers.

Finally, I am not trolling. I just realized some issue about medical school admissions so I brought it up here for other premeds’ opinions. I did not use any offensive words nor direct the cause of the problem to any particular racial group. I find it really disturbing that some people like you on this site would flame other users of trolling. If you don’t like the post just be reasonable and stop reading the thread instead of posting rude replies.

 

[dara678]

This is a good point, but at the same time, I think cfdavid raises a good one as well. While a lot of Asian-American kids were born and/or raised in the US, many of them (outside of California, where there is a longer history of Asian immigration) have parents who immigrated in the 60's, 70's, and 80's. The largely "academic success or bust" values that came with those parents didn't vanish the second they got to America--they passed on to a lot of Asian-American kids grew up with that pressure. I grew up in that environment (Indian, specifically), and even though my parents are relatively liberal, I remember having to convince them as early as middle school that it was possible to study AND do stuff outside of schoolwork. It was also telling when I once caught my mom using air quotes around the word "anthropology" (my major).

This is not to say that Asian applicants are doomed to one-dimensionalism, but a lot of kids do grow up with some resistance, and I know several cases in which that resistance crosses into controlling.

I agree with you completely. I myself grew up in that kind of environment. The point I was making was not about Asian ideas, but rather about the fact that cfdavid or whoever thought that the percentage of Asian applicants was due to the fact that a lot of "foreign" applicants were in the pool. It may not have been his intention to imply that Asians are foreigners, but the comment had those overtones. I think the only way we can actually work towards a really true liberal and colorblind society is to get rid of this idea of "them" and "us."

 

[cfdavid]

cfdavid - a lot of Asian families put great emphasis on academics, and I've been told by some that in places like India, if you're not going to school to be an engineer or a doctor, you're "wasting your time."

Yeah, in fact my two closest East Indian buddies had parents that were MD's. In fact, BOTH their mothers and fathers were docs, and I knew they were really encouraged, bordering on pressured, to go to med school.

In both cases, these guys had other interests, and really didn't seem to have too much interest in medicine. Sadly, I lost touch with them both a few years out of college (i graduated 8 yrs ago).

It's really not too different from a lot of white kids I know (I'm a white guy), myself included, where our parents worked their way up the business or corporate ladder with shear hard work and against large odds. First generation business owners etc. Often they really didn't go to college, or maybe had some or just an undergrad if that. But, due to their work ethic, it influenced us big time. For example, my dad would have said "summer research?". "Chris, go get a job. The carpenters building the homes down the street are looking for guys". In fact, that's how I made money during winter breaks often (among other things)!

 

[velo]

dude, you are a NERD!


hehehehe. I like saying that

As if I would argue. We had stats first block and I hated it the whole time until I sat down to study for the final and realized that its actually not too bad, kind of interesting. Plus bad studies get published with a remarkable frequency and its fun to be able recognize them.

 

[exilio]

i cant think of anyone with crappy GPA and MCAT scores that had great essays, EC's and interviews that was accepted.

last I checked, schools give an avg MCAT and GPA for matriculated students and not how many EC's they have or how well their essays are written. Whoever says that MCAT and GPA is only 1/3 of the whole acceptance should look into it further

Wow...so misinformed.

Acceptances are not based on GPA and MCAT alone. When did I say crappy? Or even hint at such a thought? That is your interpretation, which is obviously flawed and biased. Try to not be defensive for a moment and reconsider what I wrote and your response.

 

[cfdavid]

I agree with you completely. I myself grew up in that kind of environment. The point I was making was not about Asian ideas, but rather about the fact that cfdavid or whoever thought that the percentage of Asian applicants was due to the fact that a lot of "foreign" applicants were in the pool. It may not have been his intention to imply that Asians are foreigners, but the comment had those overtones. I think the only way we can actually work towards a really true liberal and colorblind society is to get rid of this idea of "them" and "us."

That was not my intent. Also, I did not know that U.S. medical schools did not typically admit foreign students (also, what else do you call a foreign national, other than foreign? You're making it a "bad" word, not me. Maybe I should have said "people from other countries that were not born in the United States and are not citizens of the U.S. Perhaps that would be more PC. But, come on.)

Also, a great deal of graduate students from my undergrad days were foreign. This I know, but maybe med schools are different. Or, you and I just have different experiences.

The ONLY way that I would not support anything like this is if their were equally qualified U.S. citizens (i don't care the color or ethnicity, or where there parents or grandparents were from) that were applying for those same positions. This doesn't make me predjudice. If you want to see predjudice, spend sometime outside the U.S.

Regardless, my goal is not to alienate anyone with "us or them" stuff.

 

[4 Ever]

Wow...so misinformed.

Acceptances are not based on GPA and MCAT alone. When did I say crappy? Or even hint at such a thought? That is your interpretation, which is obviously flawed and biased. Try to not be defensive for a moment and reconsider what I wrote and your response.

your response implied that there is an equal emphasis on EC's, essays, PS, etc as there is on GPA and MCAT. If scores were really just 1/2 the determining factor, then im sure there would be plenty more competitive applicants out there. GPA and MCAT is what really helps ADCOMs determine who is cut out for med school - not the ECs or essays. Get to med school and you'll realize that almost everyone has a lot of clinical experience, some with research, some with others. In the end, grades are what determine if you get in or not.

 

[ndi_amaka]

i cant think of anyone with crappy GPA and MCAT scores that had great essays, EC's and interviews that was accepted.

FUnny.....I can. 🙂

 

[SanDiegoSOD]

I agree with you completely. I myself grew up in that kind of environment. The point I was making was not about Asian ideas, but rather about the fact that cfdavid or whoever thought that the percentage of Asian applicants was due to the fact that a lot of "foreign" applicants were in the pool. It may not have been his intention to imply that Asians are foreigners, but the comment had those overtones. I think the only way we can actually work towards a really true liberal and colorblind society is to get rid of this idea of "them" and "us."

Wow, you really know how to read too deep into a post. 🙄

 

[SoCalRULES!!!!!]

I'm shocked that med school applicants are pretty much at an all time low. Just hink if it was the mid 90s 10,000 more of you wouldn't be getting in. I guess that's party due to the fact that docs only make 1/2 now what they made in the 80s. (with a few exceptions...rads...derm...plastics)

 

[dara678]

That was not my intent. Also, I did not know that U.S. medical schools did not typically admit foreign students (also, what else do you call a foreign national, other than foreign? You're making it a "bad" word, not me. Maybe I should have said "people from other countries that were not born in the United States and are not citizens of the U.S. Perhaps that would be more PC. But, come on.)

Also, a great deal of graduate students from my undergrad days were foreign. This I know, but maybe med schools are different. Or, you and I just have different experiences.

The ONLY way that I would not support anything like this is if their were equally qualified U.S. citizens (i don't care the color or ethnicity, or where there parents or grandparents were from) that were applying for those same positions. This doesn't make me predjudice. If you want to see predjudice, spend sometime outside the U.S.

Regardless, my goal is not to alienate anyone with "us or them" stuff.

The only thing I have a problem with is the fact that you (probably unintentionally) associate Asian with foreign, which is not the case. Many Asians in America were born here and lived here all their lives.

Yes, a great many grad students are foreigners, I've had that experience too. But it's notoriously difficult for foreign citizens to gain acceptance to medical school unless they have a green card.

I never said you were prejudiced, and I understand that you did not mean anything bad in your post at all. 🙂 I'm just pointing out something I thought was interesting and something I have personally had experience with.

 

[dara678]

Wow, you really know how to read too deep into a post. 🙄

I'm just pointing out some stuff in the post that I've had directed at me, in real life, before. You haven't had that experience so don't be judgmental. 🙄

 

[Premedtomed]

It's really not too different from a lot of white kids I know (I'm a white guy), myself included, where our parents worked their way up the business or corporate ladder with shear hard work and against large odds. First generation business owners etc. Often they really didn't go to college, or maybe had some or just an undergrad if that. But, due to their work ethic, it influenced us big time. For example, my dad would have said "summer research?". "Chris, go get a job. The carpenters building the homes down the street are looking for guys". In fact, that's how I made money during winter breaks often (among other things)!

The situation's the same back in India. I come from a background where I know all kinds of people. From highly educated to self-made small businessmen to industrialists to Silicon Valley Entrepreneurs.
I guess I have a diff. perspective because I lived in India for 16years and so
realize how the "majority" thinks. But yeah this whole notion of Asian values
as equivalent to hardcore discipline is BS
My parents never forced me to do anything, which made me realize that I need to go out there and get a few things done myself

 

[velo]

your response implied that there is an equal emphasis on EC's, essays, PS, etc as there is on GPA and MCAT. If scores were really just 1/2 the determining factor, then im sure there would be plenty more competitive applicants out there. GPA and MCAT is what really helps ADCOMs determine who is cut out for med school - not the ECs or essays. Get to med school and you'll realize that almost everyone has a lot of clinical experience, some with research, some with others. In the end, grades are what determine if you get in or not.

Yes what's more (and this is a point people don't like to hear) I'm sorry, but anyone can amass great ECs, volunteering experiences, and write a good PS. Its great stuff to do, but it doesn't make up for low stats, it is meant to compliment good stats.