Shortage of doctors

[DrQuack247]

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GO batteries!

not gut shot!

 

[bkz]

Your first sentence in this quote is overly cynical and not really well justified. Unless I'm missing something.

Youre right I should have made that more clear. What I meant is when people make statements such as the ones Gutshot did without explaining their reasoning, it leaves little room for any motive other than self interest. If they had said it's not fair because ___ I wouldn't have been nitpicking 😀 That sort of applies for your post too, when people say things like "___ isn't fair" without saying why, it just makes me want to roll my eyes because it sounds like whining. So yeah I guess that is cynical LOL.

Hmm, interesting point. I agree they aren't always the same, but I would change fair to right in my previous post, ie "is it right that cardiovascular surgeons make nearly 4x pediatricians" and still stand by that as a pertinent question.

this is sort of the same deal, without saying "Pediatrians deserve more money because they work longer hours than CT surgeons [yeahright] or they have longer horrible residencies, or Obama is sending the boogyman after them" these are all acceptable points that support the statement, without them it just kinda makes me wonder.

And the problem with your second quote is the word I bolded - most Americans (with American values) would agree that it is fair to tax rich people more than poor people

hmm, I would beg to differ. Just so you know I have no vested interest in arguing for this, I'm a poor student and my parents aren't wealthy. Yet I feel very strongly that the American dream of being able to make a profit, pull yourself out of poverty by the bootstraps etc should be preserved and taxing the rich at rates of ~50% (which is close to what some doctors would be taxed under Obama's $250K or less plan) is not what American is about. You may enjoy a story called Harrison Bergeron (?) in a book by Kurt Vonnegut. It describes a dystopia in which people who have extraordinary abilities are made "equal" with mere mortals by inflicting handicaps upon them. In that story the State decided to violently limit human potential.
Do I wish I was as rich as Bill Gates so I could buy a new car? Sometimes...does that make it right to tax people richer than myself in order to make everyone more equal...no.
So we may have to agree to disagree on this.
edit: here it is

Not quite - let me clarify - sorry for this being garbled.
Person A: I want to be a doctor for the money!
Person B: That is a terrible reason, you will be a terrible doc and you will probably not make it through residency.
Person C: I think Obama's plans are relevant to our future, do you guys want to talk about it?
Person B: Obama is an evil socialist because he will make doctors poor.
And then I think "PersonB kind of wants it both ways".

ok I think you are saying here that it makes Person b sound like a hypocrite. I guess what rubs people the wrong way is the term socialist, but a spade is a spade...progressive taxes are a socialist in nature. Why do people who support socialist programs get so mad when other people describe socialist programs as socialist 😕😕

Thanks for providing an interesting response.

 

[enjoydrywax]

ok I think you are saying here that it makes Person b sound like a hypocrite. I guess what rubs people the wrong way is the term socialist, but a spade is a spade...progressive taxes are a socialist in nature. Why do people who support socialist programs get so mad when other people describe socialist programs as socialist 😕😕

Thanks for providing an interesting response.

Socialist

 

[WaterBird]

That sort of applies for your post too, when people say things like "___ isn't fair" without saying why, it just makes me want to roll my eyes because it sounds like whining.
this is sort of the same deal, without saying "Pediatrians deserve more money because they work longer hours than CT surgeons

Well, I can add a "because" if that makes you happy. I didn't before because I was really posing the question, and I don't think you've justified why the gap should be that big. so here we go: "I don't understand why CT surgeons should make 4x more than IM or Peds given that they all work hard. Sure, maybe the CT went through a longer training...but that gap makes me think it must influence residency choice and the purist in me wishes people could choose based on other factors" I think anyone who is scared about the socialism type possibilities making specialties less elevated over primary care should stop for a second and think about whether or not they want their kids treated by the docs who had the worst board scores - because while there are some rare altruistic folks, lots of high-scorers won't give up the 4x more salary no matter how much they like the kiddies.

Yet I feel very strongly that the American dream of being able to make a profit, pull yourself out of poverty by the bootstraps etc should be preserved and taxing the rich at rates of ~50% (which is close to what some doctors would be taxed under Obama's $250K or less plan) is not what American is about. ...does that make it right to tax people richer than myself in order to make everyone more equal...no.

2 things -
1) There are many American dreams. My immigrant grandma who was a classic bootstrap story felt a lot of pride in paying her taxes because she believed this was a country where everyone could have opportunity due to free education, etc. There is a lot of structural inequality that makes pulling oneself out of poverty hard then and even harder now. If you think anti-progressive taxation will give more room for this dream, then you have more room for more learning about urban poverty. (I'm sorry, I'm trying to stay really constructive but I can't think of a nicer way of saying that).
2) arguing against taxation towards equality is another strawman. I don't know anyone who says, "let's talk the crap out of the rich so everyone takes home the same amount!" All the same, I don't want anyone to live in poverty in this, the richest nation on earth, because poverty disproportionately impacts children.

ok I think you are saying here that it makes Person b sound like a hypocrite. I guess what rubs people the wrong way is the term socialist, but a spade is a spade...progressive taxes are a socialist in nature. Why do people who support socialist programs get so mad when other people describe socialist programs as socialist 😕

The socialist part wasn't really my point - my point was more about the "obama will make us all poor" which, as i stated before, i believe to be scaremongering bull****, and, in this case, hypocritical to boot. But yeah, I think the reason why people react to that word is because of the scary tone that Fox news anchors use to say it and the throw back to red scare tactics. It's not a neutral descriptor.

 

[Slack3r]

It just rubs me a little bit the wrong way when people are all "ZOMG, Obama will make the specialists pooooor." That will not happen.

How do you know? Neither side can effectively argue what is going to happen, we can just look at what's proposed and make educated predictions from there. Pending Medicare reimbursement cuts, talk of dropping specialist pay, talks of a national system...none of these things particularly bode well for physician reimbursements. Judging by the fact that physician's salaries have been steadily decreasing for the past 2 decades, I can't say things are looking good right now. And no, I highly doubt doctor's will ever be living in cardboard boxes, but at some point the time/money invested in a medical education becomes a fruitless endeavor when the eventual rewards are lackluster at best.

I don't think you've justified why the gap should be that big. so here we go: "I don't understand why CT surgeons should make 4x more than IM or Peds given that they all work hard. Sure, maybe the CT went through a longer training...but that gap makes me think it must influence residency choice and the purist in me wishes people could choose based on other factors"

Well, one requires a highly skilled surgeon to cut a person open while the other takes kids temperatures. Yes, I know pediatricians do much more than that, but let's be honest here. You cannot honestly believe a pediatrician has the same level of training as a CT surgeon. More training, more skill, more "important" invasive procedures --> more pay. Sorry, but I cannot honestly agree with the justification of paying a pediatrician the same as a CT surgeon, by any stretch of the imagination.

most Americans (with American values) would agree that it is fair to tax rich people more than poor people

Probably because most Americans are complete *****s. There's no reason a very small proportion of people should be taxed at ungodly rates while an extremely large portion of the population pays NO taxes. Tax rates should be flat percentages of income, and no arguments about "fairness" can legitimately support otherwise.

 

[Gut Shot]

Is that really all you have to say? Im disappointed.

Yeah, I know you're probably twenty-something and you just finished Atlas Shrugged and all, and you're brimming with all these important things to say, but I have bigger fish to fry.

 

[bkz]

2 things -
1) There are many American dreams. My immigrant grandma who was a classic bootstrap story felt a lot of pride in paying her taxes because she believed this was a country where everyone could have opportunity due to free education, etc. There is a lot of structural inequality that makes pulling oneself out of poverty hard then and even harder now. If you think anti-progressive taxation will give more room for this dream, then you have more room for more learning about urban poverty. (I'm sorry, I'm trying to stay really constructive but I can't think of a nicer way of saying that).
2) arguing against taxation towards equality is another strawman. I don't know anyone who says, "let's talk the crap out of the rich so everyone takes home the same amount!" All the same, I don't want anyone to live in poverty in this, the richest nation on earth, because poverty disproportionately impacts children.

U know I was kinda thinking the same thing when I posted the other night but had to go to bed...saying that taxes are unfair altogether is riduculous...I think we actually probably agree about this a lot more than we disagree. Both extremes are unreasonable and lead to straw-man fallacies. I don't want anyone to live in poverty or not have access to social services. What I have a problem with is entitlement and people who abuse the system but that's another debate.

What we probably should be discussing is the percentage/tax structure SPECIFIC NUMBERS..but that's boring 😛

It's not a neutral descriptor.

Again I am just curious...why?
I don't see any reason why "socialist" is deragatory...it's descriptive...I realize throwing it out creates a knee-jerk response in some people but it is what it is..yeah?

Yeah, I know you're probably twenty-something and you just finished Atlas Shrugged and all, and you're brimming with all these important things to say, but I have bigger fish to fry.

Again instead of actually refuting anything I said you are resorting to lame ad hominem arguments...why bother posting if you are not going to add anything useful

 

[niranjan162]

Well, I can add a "because" if that makes you happy. I didn't before because I was really posing the question, and I don't think you've justified why the gap should be that big. so here we go: "I don't understand why CT surgeons should make 4x more than IM or Peds given that they all work hard. Sure, maybe the CT went through a longer training...but that gap makes me think it must influence residency choice and the purist in me wishes people could choose based on other factors" I think anyone who is scared about the socialism type possibilities making specialties less elevated over primary care should stop for a second and think about whether or not they want their kids treated by the docs who had the worst board scores - because while there are some rare altruistic folks, lots of high-scorers won't give up the 4x more salary no matter how much they like the kiddies.

It really doesnt have anything to do with rightness or fairness.

CT surgery takes longer and is more a difficult training pathway. Now lets look at family practice the pay is low so no one who puts the time in medical school wants to do for the low pay. They dont deem it as worth it. Nothing changes until the shortage begins to be big enough to create a problem. How low will the pay have to be before other specialties arent worth it? Before medicine altogether isnt worth it?

 

[Gut Shot]

Again instead of actually refuting anything I said you are resorting to lame ad hominem arguments...why bother posting if you are not going to add anything useful

After five an a half years and 5,600+ posts, I reserve the right to casually stop in, mutter, and stroll right back out.

 

[bkz]

After five an a half years and 5,600+ posts, I reserve the right to casually stop in, mutter, and stroll right back out.

except that you did that..lets see...three times

you sound cranky, I recommend a girlfriend

 

[Gut Shot]

except that you did that..lets see...three times

My love knows no limits.

you sound cranky, I recommend a girlfriend

I'd have to get my wife on board, which may be tough.

 

[Gut Shot]

Maragret Thatcher once said "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."

That's the paraphrased version you see on T-shirts.

Her actual quote was given at a meeting of the Conservative Party on October 10, 1975:

"It's the Labour Government that have brought us record peace-time taxation. They've got the usual Socialist disease—they've run out of other people's money."

 

[Kaustikos]

except that you did that..lets see...three times

you sound cranky, I recommend a girlfriend

And you sound annoying, I recommend silence.

 

[Nilf]

Discussions about the shortage of doctors (especially primary care) pops up every now and then, and the NYT has published an article today detailing initial approaches that the government is exploring. Thought it would be an interesting and relevant read for some of you:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/27/health/policy/27care.html?hp

Every prospective medical student should read this article. Medicine is becoming a zero-sum game. Think long and hard before you jump in. In the near future, specialists will make less than auto-mechanics (generalists already are making less).

Divide et impera is the name of the game for Democrats.

 

[Kaustikos]

Every prospective medical student should read this article. Medicine is becoming a zero-sum game. Think long and hard before you jump in. In the near future, specialists will make less than auto-mechanics (generalists already are making less).

Divide et impera is the name of the game for Democrats.

In essence, it'll mean we won't give a **** about patient harrassment and can finally say: "you feel pain in your chest because you smoke too many fckin cigarettes and eat too much, fatty. What? Yeah, go sue me and see if I care."

jk

 

[VoiceofReason]

death to capitalism

 

[ThinkTooMuch]

Every prospective medical student should read this article. Medicine is becoming a zero-sum game. Think long and hard before you jump in. In the near future, specialists will make less than auto-mechanics (generalists already are making less).

Divide et impera is the name of the game for Democrats.

its going to so bad that you have already quit your fellowship right? 🙄

what Im trying to say is you are talking out of your arss. 🙂

 

[Nilf]

its going to so bad that you have already quit your fellowship right? 🙄

what Im trying to say is you are talking out of your arss. 🙂

I have invested heavily in my education and at the moment the best thing for me to do is to carry on. This might change during next several years.

For you, the best option is to run and never look back.

 

[Kaustikos]

its going to so bad that you have already quit your fellowship right? 🙄

what Im trying to say is you are talking out of your arss. 🙂

In essence, any opinion is talking out of your ass, right?🙄
The probability of it occuring is there, despite your desires that it won't happen and you'll get that elitist position you so desire.
Pre-meds are so cute sometimes with their stbborn refusal to listen to their peers.

 

[ThinkTooMuch]

I have invested heavily in my education and at the moment the best thing for me to do is to carry on. This might change during next several years.

For you, the best option is to run and never look back.

your post is like an LSAT answer that just by looking at it I would be 99.99% sure it is false.

 

[Kaustikos]

your post is like an LSAT answer that just by looking at it I would be 99.99% sure it is false.

Care to elaborate or offer some valuable retort other than "nuhuh, you're not telling the truth! liar liar oants on fire!"?

 

[ThinkTooMuch]

In essence, any opinion is talking out of your ass, right?🙄
The probability of it occuring is there, despite your desires that it won't happen and you'll get that elitist position you so desire.
Pre-meds are so cute sometimes with their stbborn refusal to listen to their peers.

yeah everyone should listen to peers. that way next year there will be zero applicants to medical school and current med students will all drop out within 6 months. This is the best solution and all the countries health care problems will resolved. go peer advice. 😀

 

[ThinkTooMuch]

Care to elaborate or offer some valuable retort other than "nuhuh, you're not telling the truth! liar liar oants on fire!"?

as long im responding to the exact same type of argument, no.