Doctors leaving medicine

[truthspeaker1]

Curious why anyone is entering medicine right now. The practicing doctors are miserable and most looking to quit/retire/leave the field entirely?

Full disclosure, I’m a physician and have been in practice for over 15 years. My colleagues are not happy.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[LunaOri]

Medicine is still a very rewarding career. I go to work every day knowing that what I do helps people (and I get paid well to do it). My work is interesting, and I learn new things all the time. I’m involved in selecting and training the next generation of physicians. I’ve never regretted choosing medicine as a career.
(Attending MD, department head, med school professor, adcom member).

 

[truthspeaker1]

Medicine is still a very rewarding career. I go to work every day knowing that what I do helps people (and I get paid well to do it). My work is interesting, and I learn new things all the time. I’m involved in selecting and training the next generation of physicians. I’ve never regretted choosing medicine as a career.
(Attending MD, department head, med school professor, adcom member).

Glad you have found happiness. You are also not in a typical practice as an academic running a residency. Most of the doctors I know, went to med school with, trained with, and work with, regret going into medicine. These are not opinions, just stating the facts.

Anyone considering medicine needs to know that the profession has very much declined in the last decade and is getting worse (as are reimbursements - having to work harder and harder to maintain incomes).

 

[Mr.Smile12]

There are so many factors that have changed medicine in the last 10-20 years. Probably more significantly in the last 10 include passage and implementation of ACA, the increased proliferation of EMR's and midlevels, corporate org/reorg of hospital systems (including venture funds into healthcare and pharma), the rejection of clinical expertise during the COVID pandemic, and the newly found awareness of work-life balance and wellness.

Regardless, applications to medical school still keep creeping up, which is remarkably different compared to many of the other health professions. Feel free to listen to the other chats among frustrated health care professionals on the forums.

 

[Goro]

My clinical colleagues love what they do.

 

[chssoccer7]

Physician shadowing is required on apps for a reason. I interacted with somewhere around 20 physicians during my shadowing time, and all were brutally honest with me about what they don't like about their job. They were also honest with me about what they do like and why they do it.

There are plenty of discussions on here from disgruntled physicians trying to warn people away from the field. There are also plenty who speak of it with rose tinted glasses. Both sides of the conversation are here and very easy to find.

Anyone with a hard stance on either side of the line is only giving you half the story.

 

[HuskyMD Emeritus]

Pulmonary-Critical Care doc in the trenches for over 30 years, not in ivory tower academia but have been involved with teaching housestaff while carrying full load of pts and overbooked clinic, chief of department for 18 years (undergrad was in electrical engineering), have no regrets with this most satisfying career. Have talked to my colleagues in pulm-ccm and other specialties, some were in academia for many years but joined our group subsequently. All have enjoyed their careers with no regrets. We are in a very busy multispecialty group. I retired about 2 years ago but still renewed my board certifications and am working part time. My daughter had aspirations to be a concert violinists but ultimately chose to go to medical school and is now in general surgery and she loves it.
Is medicine a difficulty career? Yes. Is there a lot of burn out? Yes. But so are other occupations, just ask the investment bankers, the average engineer, the writers, actors, waiters, etc.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

The people who need to weigh in are not those in training or forum moderators. Talk to doctors in the real world, in practice for over 5 years. Everyone I know wants out.

I've been a practicing non-academic physician way longer than I've been a moderator (10 years versus 2), though I'm unsure why that matters.

I still very much enjoy my job as an outpatient family physician. I work 4.5 days per week, 90 minutes for lunch, first patient at 8 last at 4. Take around 30-35 days off per year not including holidays, and have broken 400k the last 3 years (and on track to again this year).

Vast majority of my patients like me, the ones that don't find new doctors. Most are fairly compliant with treatment, and the ones that aren't I can typically get them there with time.

My employer values primary care and so we are treated well and have good support.

If you'll allow me to pontification for a bit, there's a handful of things that I think help keep me enjoying what I do.

First, pick a field you like. Don't just go chasing after money or prestige.

Second, remember that medicine is a job. Its an important job certainly, and one from which I derive satisfaction. But at the end its a job. It will have its frustrations and irritations like any other job. But it can also be more rewarding than most. I ran into a couple yesterday at our town's Greek Festival who thanked me for saving his life. She and the kids were over at my house a few years ago for a playdate and she happened to mention that her husband was having trouble opening his mouth. Find out he stepped on an old roofing nail about 2 weeks early. I made him to go the hospital where ID specialists from 3 hours away came because they had never see a real case of tetanus.

Third, we do get paid quite well. I am aware that many fields pay better or the same with less training, but no other field is guaranteed 200k minimum the instant you finish training.

Fourth, pick a good place to work. Not all jobs are created equal. It took me 5 jobs to find one I really liked. Don't be afraid to job-hop.

Fifth, have a decent life outside of medicine. As one of my partners says, live to work don't work to live. Have a solid hobby or two. Spend time with your family if you have one, start one if you don't but wish you did. If you have no desire for a family, most single-and-happy-that-way doctors I know travel constantly.

None of this will guarantee you happiness, and I do acknowledge that current students have a way worse debt situation than my generation had. But, if you can accomplish most of the above it should give you a pretty good shot.

 

[sugasathya]

Most of wonderful things happen at 20’s. Great companies were founded by people at this age. Great inventions and patents.

Honestly I guess US medical education making students to spend their precious age with undergrad + Gap years + Stress of application + 4 year MD + residency etc., is not the way to utilize the potential properly.

Compared to Core Engineering and Design Job Or Research Jobs, most of other high paying Jobs like “Physicians, Financial Analyst and S/W coders” will be replaced by AI and put more pressure on these professionals. If young people are passionate in curing people, they should work in technology creating affordable health care that is really scalable.

 

[ontiquicuo]

Agreed. Just look at my threads. I'm a new PGY1 and I have a great senior but doesn't know much. I simply asked a few medical questions on this forum and got shut down immediately.

Which threads would those be? This appears to be your first and only post.

 

[Cornfed101]

This is not an equal sentiment in all specialties. I’m a 4th year applying anesthesia and I have yet to meet an unhappy anesthesiologist. Reimbursements are definitely down and nobody is happy about that, but the sky is not falling universally.

Work sucks in general. I wouldn’t try to find happiness in another profession because you likely won’t find it.

 

[Nontrad_FL_LGBT]

I've been a practicing non-academic physician way longer than I've been a moderator (10 years versus 2), though I'm unsure why that matters.

I still very much enjoy my job as an outpatient family physician. I work 4.5 days per week, 90 minutes for lunch, first patient at 8 last at 4. Take around 30-35 days off per year not including holidays, and have broken 400k the last 3 years (and on track to again this year).

Vast majority of my patients like me, the ones that don't find new doctors. Most are fairly compliant with treatment, and the ones that aren't I can typically get them there with time.

My employer values primary care and so we are treated well and have good support.

If you'll allow me to pontification for a bit, there's a handful of things that I think help keep me enjoying what I do.

First, pick a field you like. Don't just go chasing after money or prestige.

Second, remember that medicine is a job. Its an important job certainly, and one from which I derive satisfaction. But at the end its a job. It will have its frustrations and irritations like any other job. But it can also be more rewarding than most. I ran into a couple yesterday at our town's Greek Festival who thanked me for saving his life. She and the kids were over at my house a few years ago for a playdate and she happened to mention that her husband was having trouble opening his mouth. Find out he stepped on an old roofing nail about 2 weeks early. I made him to go the hospital where ID specialists from 3 hours away came because they had never see a real case of tetanus.

Third, we do get paid quite well. I am aware that many fields pay better or the same with less training, but no other field is guaranteed 200k minimum the instant you finish training.

Fourth, pick a good place to work. Not all jobs are created equal. It took me 5 jobs to find one I really liked. Don't be afraid to job-hop.

Fifth, have a decent life outside of medicine. As one of my partners says, live to work don't work to live. Have a solid hobby or two. Spend time with your family if you have one, start one if you don't but wish you did. If you have no desire for a family, most single-and-happy-that-way doctors I know travel constantly.

None of this will guarantee you happiness, and I do acknowledge that current students have a way worse debt situation than my generation had. But, if you can accomplish most of the above it should give you a pretty good shot.

Your advice is super solid and applies to really any professional career. I have interns and juniors making the same complaints to me as a software engineer and I give them the same wisdom.

- 30 yo non-trad engineer in the current cycle

 

[Med Ed]

Full disclosure, I’m a physician and have been in practice for over 15 years.

Sure you are.

0/10.

 

[Med Ed]

Which threads would those be? This appears to be your first and only post.

Those would be the threads created by a different sock puppet.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

The advice posted above is true and well stated.

However the rosy picture directly contradicts physician surveys within the last 2-3 years. Please look at the data objectively (posted in above linked articles) and acknowledge that physicians, on the whole, are decidedly unhappy.

I expected to get a negative response as the entire purpose of the SDN forums is to encourage and support those applying to medical school. If I can save at least one person from going into medicine, I consider this discussion a success.

You know who doesn't take time to fill out those surveys? Doctors who are happy with their career choice. I haven't ever done one of those. Same with salary surveys.

I didn't read all of the articles you posted. I did take a glance at the one from KFF news (the author and I went to high school together). I take issue with much of what's been said in the article. Let's begin:

“Why go into primary care when you can make twice the money doing something with half the stress?” said Daniel Crummett, a retired primary care doctor who lives in North Carolina. “I don’t know why anyone would go into primary care.”

This is utterly asinine. First, you go into primary care because you like it. Second, my stress level is way lower than most of the higher paying specialties. PCP call is NOTHING like cardiology, surgery, OB, or pulmonology call. Its all over the phone, I never have to go into the hospital ever. I very rarely have to code patients or tell them they are dying from whatever. We also have the shortest training period. I have a friend who is a urologist. Makes easily twice what I do. His residency was 2 years longer and on the whole much more difficult than mine. He has to go into the hospital nights and weekends to see patients and perform surgery. I take phone-only call every 6 weeks. 2 weekends per year, again phone only. I don't have to tell people they have metastatic prostate/kidney cancer. I have no idea how anyone would think my life is more stressful than his. Sure its more money, but dude earns it.

"Crummett said he would have enjoyed working until he was 70, if not for the bureaucratic burdens of practicing medicine, including needing to get prior authorization from insurance companies before providing care, navigating cumbersome electronic health record platforms, and logging hours of administrative work outside the exam room."

Old man yells at cloud. My staff does PAs for everything. I haven't done a PA in years. Most EMRs aren't all that bad. I actually really like Epic. I don't have to do any work outside of office hours. I do review labs in the morning before my kids get up, but in exchange I walk out of the office 5 minutes after my last patient does. If I didn't do the morning stuff, I'd have to stick around another 20 minutes. I don't know any doctors who do hours of work outside the exam room.

"Once, Antonucci said, she had to call an insurance company — by landline and cellphone simultaneously, with one phone on each ear — to get prior authorization to conduct a CT scan, while her patient in need of an appendectomy waited in pain. The hospital wouldn’t conduct the scan without insurance approval."

The Emergency Department exists for a reason. If my staff can't get an urgent CT I want approved, the patient goes to the ED. I also haven't had a CT scan denied in a very long time because I know how to play to game. Yes, we all know that an abdominal x-ray is worthless for abdominal pain outside bowel obstruction but I always get one to help with CT approval. You also have to document appropriately. If you put "Patient presents with RLQ pain and nausea. TTP in RLQ, +rebound and guarding. Abd x-ray negative for acute pathology" I have never had a CT A/P get denied. But again, the ED is there. You have to know when to stop fighting and just take the easy-to-you way out. In this case its even worse since if it is appendicitis you're going to send them to the ED anyway so why not have them do the scan?

The stuff about residency is a whole other thing that I don't have a good answer to. Same thing with the fields that see way more death than is average (ED, ICU).

 

[hamstergang]

However the rosy picture directly contradicts physician surveys within the last 2-3 years. Please look at the data objectively (posted in above linked articles) and acknowledge that physicians, on the whole, are decidedly unhappy.

Are there similar surveys done in the same time in other fields, and how do they compare? Whenever I hear people complain about their job and generalize it to the entire industry, I wonder if they'd just feel the same in any comparable job.

 

[gyngyn]

I hope the axe grinding has helped this poor unhappy soul.
Closing.