Should a student have any concerns about attending a new US MD program, such as Seton Hall or others

[PreMedMissteps]

Should a student have any concerns about attending a new US MD med schools, such as Seton Hall or other new (non profit) US MD med schools?

asking about any concerns about any of the new US MD schools, but also particularly Hackensack Meridian at Seton Hall. Should there be any concern due to newness or that SH seems to have withdrawn partnership/funding?

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[965978]

I think SH is still doing its inaugural year.

If you look at Northstate, for example, it didn’t do terribly on its first match list. They didn’t seem to have issues such as not matching students at all and they even had some people that matched into top programs. Some people on here were very critical about Northstate’s match list. But it was their first year!! All that matters is that they managed to swim to the end of the pool without sinking. However, I still despise their profit model.

In any case, I would trust the LCME’s oversight into the development of SH. Also, if SH does end up sinking, I’m pretty sure there are LCME mandated agreements amongst med schools to absorb each other’s students in case a school has to get shut down @gonnif can correct me on that though

 

[PreMedMissteps]

In any case, I would trust the LCME’s oversight into the development of SH. Also, if SH does end up sinking, I’m pretty sure there are LCME mandated agreements amongst med schools to absorb each other’s students in case a school has to get shut down @gonnif can correct me on that though

That’s kind of what I’m thinking. But I don’t expect SH to sink because it’s really now Hackensack Meridian’s baby and they have a mega-vested interest in the school. Since they have 16 hospitals (don’t know if any of them are teaching hospitals), they must have a concern about doctor shortage and they think this is a remedy.

(SH no longer has a financial obligation with the med school, but still has promised agreements in place...such as guaranteed spots for a number of their graduates, including their BS/MD program)

As for other med schools absorbing students in case of SH med failure, that’s an interesting question ( @gonnif ??). We have seen that happen when a US med school must temporarily close due to hurricane damage.

 

[DrFortiusNatando]

Assessing the financial stability of a new school, as well as predicting the LCME's reviews will be difficult in many cases - a crystal ball may be a good idea. Certainly you can read up on the school's funding (the new K-P school due to open in Pasadena obviously is well-funded).

A main issue for students deciding about a new medical school, and one that is often hard to answer, is the quality of the clinical experiences. That includes the clinical exposure and teaching that is usually started in the preclinical years.

For the pre-clinical years' clinical instruction, as well as the clerkship year and beyond, the students are often sent to a number of places all over the area, including hospitals and private practices that may not have ever had students before. Some will be great, some will not, and the admin will need time to sort this out.

Additionally, for any students truly interested in research, it will be important to assess whether there seems to be an adequate number and diversity of research experiences.

 

[Goro]

One of the problems new schools have is that it take time for their faculty to gel and deliver a solid curriculum.

In CNU's example, their students' success was in spite of their administration, not because of it.

 

[965978]

There is no standard “mutual support” agreement or process by LCME, AAMC, or other bodies that would guarantee transfer or placement of an existing students from a school that had an unplanned closing. Indeed, the LCME regulations clearly state that no school can accept transfer students if it impacts the educational or clinical resources of its existing students.

However, it is also likely that if a school were to close due to natural or financial disaster, the AAMC and the body of schools across the USA would make a strong effort to place existing students from the failing institution. But there are no guarantees

Thank you very much for correcting me on that!

 

[7331poas]

The medical school at seton hall will be completely Hackensack's in 4 years when the program gets the necessary credentials. And to clear up some confusion, every hospital in the hackensack meridian system has residencies ranging from integrated vascular, urology, etc.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

every hospital in the hackensack meridian system has residencies ranging from integrated vascular, urology, etc.

Ok! So they’re creating their own feeder school, perhaps?

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

Should a student have any concerns about attending a new US MD med schools, such as Seton Hall or other new (non profit) US MD med schools?

asking about any concerns about any of the new US MD schools, but also particularly Hackensack Meridian at Seton Hall. Should there be any concern due to newness or that SH seems to have withdrawn partnership/funding?

So what is concerning about the new schools is not that the school will close/lose accreditation. Thats never happened and likely never will, as it would be a disaster for everyone involved. However what is a real risk is that you will be hindered in the match due to lack of established mentorship tracks and speciality support.

Let me give an example. Ortho surgery is one of the most competitive fields these days. Students need top board scores, extensive research, and several glowing letters from well known faculty at multiple institutions to match successfully. You can do well on the boards from anywhere in the US. Hell people from sketchy carib schools can kill the boards. But research and letters are much harder to come by. Having a home residency program which can advise you, vouch for you, and set you up with research and away rotations is CRITICAL to success in these competitive fields.

People who attend med schools that lack an affiliated academic hospital and residencies therefore often run into trouble and face an uphill battle trying to match fields like derm, ortho, neurosurgery, Optho, etc. And many new schools will either not have an affiliated residency, or if they do the mentorship and advising structure will not yet be established.

So in summary: concern for not becoming a doctor? no, you'll graduate with an MD. Concern for being hindered in the match and not having enough support? Possible.

But hey, you play the hand you get. If its the only place you got in you put on a smile and go for it

 

[PreMedMissteps]

However what is a real risk is that you will be hindered in the match due to lack of established mentorship tracks and speciality support.

Hmmm...
Well, in the case of Seton Hall, since Hackensack Meridian has 16 hospitals of which many/most/all are teaching hospitals, it would seem like they could hit the ground running with mentoring and specialty support.
SH seated their first very small class last fall, maybe Fall 2019 class will be similar or slightly larger.
Seems like by starting with small numbers and having those assets, they could rather quickly arrange what’s needed for their eventual MS4s to have resumes needed for residency apps.

My hunch is that HM wanted/wants this med school to be a feeder school into some of their residency programs. As many med students are now older or having children while in med school, Ive noticed that at many Match reveals, many students are happily matching into programs that are “in the area”....perhaps to cause less disruption to families.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

Hmmm...
Well, in the case of Seton Hall, since Hackensack Meridian has 16 hospitals of which many/most/all are teaching hospitals, it would seem like they could hit the ground running with mentoring and specialty support.
SH seated their first very small class last fall, maybe Fall 2019 class will be similar or slightly larger.
Seems like by starting with small numbers and having those assets, they could rather quickly arrange what’s needed for their eventual MS4s to have resumes needed for residency apps.

My hunch is that HM wanted/wants this med school to be a feeder school into some of their residency programs. As many med students are now older or having children while in med school, Ive noticed that at many Match reveals, many students are happily matching into programs that are “in the area”....perhaps to cause less disruption to families.

Yea I wouldn't be so sure. Having teaching hospitals in itself does not make this easy. The 3rd and 4th year clerkships take years to develop. You need to train admin to administer them, need to find niches for students to fit into, find attendings who's clinical workload is low enough to make having students feasible.

Let me give you an example. Here at my school, which has been around since forever, we recently acquired a new community hospital and started sending students there for electives.

At our home site, the attendings have been teaching since the dawn of time. They know exactly what to expect from a student. They know what stelar is, what subpar is, can can coach a subpar student into a stellar one. They know tasks students can do to get involved in the ED, OR, Etc.

Our new site has all private attendings who have been involved with residents but not students. Many of them expected the students to function as residents, since that's all they'd ever known. Others treated us like premeds. Some were great teachers. Some were mean or offensive. Some taught students how to operate, some made them stand in the corner and fetch sutures. It takes a few years for admin to hear about these things and figure out which faculty students should be paired with. Which service can students excel on, and which service should not have med students at all?

These are the sort of growing pains of a new school. While it may be lessened by having established residencies and a large hospital network, it won't be eliminated. If you go to a new school, you'll be a guinea pig. But you'll also be a doctor.

 

[LizzyM]

... what is a real risk is that you will be hindered in the match due to lack of established mentorship tracks and speciality support.

Let me give an example. Ortho surgery is one of the most competitive fields these days. Students need top board scores, extensive research, and several glowing letters from well known faculty at multiple institutions to match successfully. You can do well on the boards from anywhere in the US. Hell people from sketchy carib schools can kill the boards. But research and letters are much harder to come by. Having a home residency program which can advise you, vouch for you, and set you up with research and away rotations is CRITICAL to success in these competitive fields.

Perhaps as with Huxley's Brave New World, the scheme is to set people up to enter primary care and so not having letters for a match in surgical specialties would be part of the plan. It may be that these schools have no interest in producing Alphas in their hatchery.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

Perhaps as with Huxley's Brave New World, the scheme is to set people up to enter primary care and so not having letters for a match in surgical specialties would be part of the plan. It may be that these schools have no interest in producing Alphas in their hatchery.

If that’s their stated mission that makes total sense, but are these schools primary care focused?

I think students shooting for the smaller or more competitive fields would have a harder time making a go of it from a new school even if it’s not geared towards primary care. That said, again, gotta go where you get in.

 

[Goro]

If that’s their stated mission that makes total sense, but are these schools primary care focused?

I think students shooting for the smaller or more competitive fields would have a harder time making a go of it from a new school even if it’s not geared towards primary care. That said, again, gotta go where you get in.

CalU...yes
NYU.LI....yes

 

[7331poas]

Yea I wouldn't be so sure. Having teaching hospitals in itself does not make this easy. The 3rd and 4th year clerkships take years to develop. You need to train admin to administer them, need to find niches for students to fit into, find attendings who's clinical workload is low enough to make having students feasible.

Let me give you an example. Here at my school, which has been around since forever, we recently acquired a new community hospital and started sending students there for electives.

At our home site, the attendings have been teaching since the dawn of time. They know exactly what to expect from a student. They know what stelar is, what subpar is, can can coach a subpar student into a stellar one. They know tasks students can do to get involved in the ED, OR, Etc.

Our new site has all private attendings who have been involved with residents but not students. Many of them expected the students to function as residents, since that's all they'd ever known. Others treated us like premeds. Some were great teachers. Some were mean or offensive. Some taught students how to operate, some made them stand in the corner and fetch sutures. It takes a few years for admin to hear about these things and figure out which faculty students should be paired with. Which service can students excel on, and which service should not have med students at all?

These are the sort of growing pains of a new school. While it may be lessened by having established residencies and a large hospital network, it won't be eliminated. If you go to a new school, you'll be a guinea pig. But you'll also be a doctor.

hackensack has been teaching rutgers students for decades bro

 

[863168]

@The Knife & Gun Club Hackensack had been a rotation site for Touro NY students, therefore they were likely already familiar with the logistics needed to slot their students before they decided to open their school. The emergence of having another medical school in the NY/NJ pocket probably makes it more difficult for schools like Touro to slot their students into programs as they are not just competing with a new school like Hackensack, but against Caribbean schools that have more capital to buy out big ten year contracts for millions of dollars in hospitals that have been in the red for more years than they would like when it comes to operations. New York as a whole has been relatively IMG friendly compared to the rest of the United States as a lot of money has been thrown to hospitals to keep seats open for students from schools like Ross and SGU.

 

[LizzyM]

@The Knife & Gun Club Caribbean schools that have more capital to buy out big ten year contracts for millions of dollars in hospitals that have been in the red for more years than they would like when it comes to operations.

That's been the Caribbean schools business model and it's working for them.

 

[863168]

@The Knife & Gun Club Another thing you typed which was interesting is that I don't think that the medical school was conceived primarily with an interest to actually expand physicians into primary care. It is known within circles that Hackensack-Meridian hit a sort of "hospital cap" in which they either could no longer acquire additional hospitals as easily as before or would have to exert significant political influence in order to break the limit. I suspect that their decision to open a medical school was another avenue that they thought would give a healthy return as a growth/wealth investment.

@LizzyM It was my impression that it was also the strategy of Touro NY which is why the last time I checked student tuition it was around the ballpark of $90,000/annual. I assumed that the higher fees were used to secure spots in the competitive NY rotation market. Not to conflate a DO school with a Caribbean school in terms of securing students residency replacements, let's just be clear and let premeds know that any school in the United States should be chosen over becoming an IMG. However, this still does not change my understanding that Touro & Caribbean school were using the same playbook when it came to securing clinical rotations in the NY area.

Edit: Despite my negative comments, I do want Touro to succeed as a world without Conrad Fischer would be a dark place to live in.