Should I apply DO?

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JPSmyth

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hey guys, I'm starting to compile my list of 30+ medical schools to apply to, which I will then narrow down to ~20 once I get my MCAT score and I look further into the schools. I haven't graduated yet, but as of right now my sGPA is a 3.9 and my overall is about a 3.85. I only have a few classes left to take before graduating and I am hoping that it stays this high once I am done with all of my coursework. My school is nothing special, not a top 50, but I feel like it has a pretty decent reputation.

I have not taken the MCAT yet, but if practice tests are a reasonable indicator, then I feel I will be able to get a 32 +/- 2pts. I'm hoping that I will be able to break a 33+.

ECs:
-2+ years of volunteering at a hospital in 4 different departments. I took breaks while I was away at school, but I think my hours are somewhere around 400.
-2 years of a division II sport.
-2 semesters of research on campus.
-1 year non-clinical job at a medical school (is this even worth including?)
-4 year part time job in retail during school. Thousands of hours here.
-1 semester tutoring for Bio II.
-Volunteering with underserved youth in a non-clinical setting, still working on my hours for this since I just started. It's a program through my school.
-Physician shadowing - working on this currently, scheduled to start shadowing my first doctor soon. I'm hoping this opens up doors to shadow other colleagues. Planning on having about 100 hours of physician shadowing when I apply.

Downsides to my application-
I transferred twice. Two years at a small unknown LAC. One semester at a top 50 university. 2 years at my current university. My family ran into some financial problems while I was at the top 50, so I could only stay for one semester unless I wanted to take out a ton of private loans, which I didn't feel was worth it.
No real "wow" experiences for my PS. No spectacular moment in my life that made me realize I wanted to be a doctor. Still, hoping that my PS turns out good.

I always hear horror stories of kids with 4.0s, good MCAT scores, and supposedly solid applications that don't get a single acceptance. I want to make sure that doesn't happen. At first I was thinking about applying to 10MD and 10DO schools, but now I am thinking about 20MD, 3DO. Does this sound reasonable to you guys? I would rather get more apps out to MD schools to better my chances.

Thank you for any help you guys can offer!
 
Your GPAs are > avg for MD acceptees, and a 33 MCAT is slightly > avg, so you'll have plenty of good luck with MD schools only. Remember that this is SDN where for some people, a 4.0 and 45 aren't good enough.

MSAR Online is your friend.

If you score a 31 or less, then it's time mix in more DO programs.
 
Last edited:
Goro said:
Your GPAs are > avg for MD acceptees, and a 33 MCAT is slightly < avg, so you'll have plenty of good luck with MD schools only. Remember that this is SDN where for some people, a 4.0 and 45 aren't good enough.

MSAR Online is your friend.

If you score a 31 or less, then it's time mix in more DO programs.
Click to expand...

Woah 33 MCAT is < average for acceptees these days? I thought it was like 31. Man...
 
Goro said:
Your GPAs are > avg for MD acceptees, and a 33 MCAT is slightly < avg, so you'll have plenty of good luck with MD schools only. Remember that this is SDN where for some people, a 4.0 and 45 aren't good enough.

MSAR Online is your friend.

If you score a 31 or less, then it's time mix in more DO programs.
Click to expand...

Thank you, @Goro. Can I ask, in your professional opinion, what are some of the more highly regarded DO schools? I know that there are no official rankings or anything like that, but I guess the best way to tell would be by the match lists and the reputation that the school has?

I saw a thread from 2012 that said there were 8-10 osteopathic schools considered to be the "top" ones, but they didn't say which schools they were
 
AlteredScale said:
Would add TCOM, OUCOM, OSU-COM.
Click to expand...

referee3 said:
MSUCOM as well
Click to expand...
Agree; however...

TCOM accepts 90% instate.

While certainly top tier, do not apply MSUCOM as an OOS applicant unless you are cool with the 82K tuition. That's not a typo. And they also take 80% + instate.

And if you go to OUCOM, also as an OOS, be prepared to sign on the dotted line that yes, you will agree to practice in the wonderful state of Ohio for 5 years, or face penalties stiff enough to make you wish you were practicing 5 years in the wonderful state of Ohio.

If money is no object, then you'll consider UNECOM, CCOM, AZCOM.

Great schools at more reasonable costs ; KCUMB, PCOM.
 
I would get my MCAT before deciding where to apply. 32 and above, there's no need to apply to DO as a "safety."
 
NYCdude said:
I would get my MCAT before deciding where to apply. 32 and above, there's no need to apply to DO as a "safety."
Click to expand...

@NYCdude thanks. I think if all goes well with my MCAT, I should have good chances for MD schools.

Also, just did some recalculating of my grades, my sGPA is actually probably a 3.85 and overall is around 3.8. Don't think it will make a huge difference though
 
johnamo said:
You're solidly in the MD realm with a 30-32+. I would say forget DO unless you score below 30.
Click to expand...

Thank you. I will focus all my efforts on MD schools as long as my MCAT is good. I don't want to sell myself short, especially since I want to try to match into one of the more competitive residency programs
 
JPSmyth said:
hey guys, I'm starting to compile my list of 30+ medical schools to apply to, which I will then narrow down to ~20 once I get my MCAT score and I look further into the schools. I haven't graduated yet, but as of right now my sGPA is a 3.9 and my overall is about a 3.85. I only have a few classes left to take before graduating and I am hoping that it stays this high once I am done with all of my coursework. My school is nothing special, not a top 50, but I feel like it has a pretty decent reputation.

I have not taken the MCAT yet, but if practice tests are a reasonable indicator, then I feel I will be able to get a 32 +/- 2pts. I'm hoping that I will be able to break a 33+.

ECs:
-2+ years of volunteering at a hospital in 4 different departments. I took breaks while I was away at school, but I think my hours are somewhere around 400.
-2 years of a division II sport.
-2 semesters of research on campus.
-1 year non-clinical job at a medical school (is this even worth including?)
-4 year part time job in retail during school. Thousands of hours here.
-1 semester tutoring for Bio II.
-Volunteering with underserved youth in a non-clinical setting, still working on my hours for this since I just started. It's a program through my school.
-Physician shadowing - working on this currently, scheduled to start shadowing my first doctor soon. I'm hoping this opens up doors to shadow other colleagues. Planning on having about 100 hours of physician shadowing when I apply.

Downsides to my application-
I transferred twice. Two years at a small unknown LAC. One semester at a top 50 university. 2 years at my current university. My family ran into some financial problems while I was at the top 50, so I could only stay for one semester unless I wanted to take out a ton of private loans, which I didn't feel was worth it.
No real "wow" experiences for my PS. No spectacular moment in my life that made me realize I wanted to be a doctor. Still, hoping that my PS turns out good.

I always hear horror stories of kids with 4.0s, good MCAT scores, and supposedly solid applications that don't get a single acceptance. I want to make sure that doesn't happen. At first I was thinking about applying to 10MD and 10DO schools, but now I am thinking about 20MD, 3DO. Does this sound reasonable to you guys? I would rather get more apps out to MD schools to better my chances.

Thank you for any help you guys can offer!
Click to expand...

You're fine, dude. Just crush that MCAT. Anything above a 30 and I wouldn't even bother applying DO. Here are the acceptance stats, for MD programs: https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/factstable25-4.pdf
 
If you're interested in the DO approach and philosophy, apply DO regardless of how you do on the MCAT. There's really no reason to leave DO schools off your list if they offer something you're looking for out of your medical education.
If you're not interested in a school, don't apply there.
The idea that DO schools are "inferior" in some way is garbage. Find schools that you're enthusiastic about regardless of what letters will come after your name when you graduate. Trust me, it'll make filling out secondaries a million times easier when they come in.
 
DocWinter said:
Agree; however...

TCOM accepts 90% instate.

While certainly top tier, do not apply MSUCOM as an OOS applicant unless you are cool with the 82K tuition. That's not a typo. And they also take 80% + instate.

And if you go to OUCOM, also as an OOS, be prepared to sign on the dotted line that yes, you will agree to practice in the wonderful state of Ohio for 5 years, or face penalties stiff enough to make you wish you were practicing 5 years in the wonderful state of Ohio.

If money is no object, then you'll consider UNECOM, CCOM, AZCOM.

Great schools at more reasonable costs ; KCUMB, PCOM.
Click to expand...

Pretty good run down. I would possibly add Nova and NYIT aswell. Good affiliations in south florida/NYC, university program, and awesome locations.
 
something that really discouraged me from DO is that a surgeon told me to my face that I should avoid osteopathic school if I want to go into a competitive specialty. We were discussing what schools I would be applying to and I threw a DO name in there and he immediately shot that idea down.

I'm thinking that as long as my MCAT is above a 31 like people have said, I will be applying to 20-25 MD schools
 
JPSmyth said:
something that really discouraged me from DO is that a surgeon told me to my face that I should avoid osteopathic school if I want to go into a competitive specialty. We were discussing what schools I would be applying to and I threw a DO name in there and he immediately shot that idea down.

I'm thinking that as long as my MCAT is above a 31 like people have said, I will be applying to 20-25 MD schools
Click to expand...
Yeah, I was a bit shaken when a family friend (pediatric dermatologist) told me to NEVER go to a DO school... period. He keeps telling my parents that they're not real medical schools.

It bugged me for a while, but after meeting several successful DO surgeons, radiologists, and ophthalmologists from my school, I decided he was just an elitist old guy -- (he's also someone who wasn't happy that one of his multiple kids didn't go to Harvard and only considers residents for his program who are more than 2 SD above the mean on USMLE).

Yes, it is a harder path... but it's still a legitimate path. If you do well, there are plenty of open doors.
 
JPSmyth said:
something that really discouraged me from DO is that a surgeon told me to my face that I should avoid osteopathic school if I want to go into a competitive specialty. We were discussing what schools I would be applying to and I threw a DO name in there and he immediately shot that idea down.

I'm thinking that as long as my MCAT is above a 31 like people have said, I will be applying to 20-25 MD schools
Click to expand...

One of the SDNers on here @DopaDO matched an acgme surigical subspeciality at a top MD hospital. All specialities are possible. It might be harder to get but if you want it its certainly possible.

I would consider the individual schools more then the MD/DO thing. When time comes to choose your school consider MD/DO but for now if you have some osteopathic programs you're interested in apply. But don't use them as a safety as DO school are still ultra competitive and reject many qualified candidates. There is no such thing as safety in this game.
 
johnamo said:
Yeah, I was a bit shaken when a family friend (pediatric dermatologist) told me to NEVER go to a DO school... period. He keeps telling my parents that they're not real medical schools.

It bugged me for a while, but after meeting several successful DO surgeons, radiologists, and ophthalmologists from my school, I decided he was just an elitist old guy -- (he's also someone who wasn't happy that one of his multiple kids didn't go to Harvard). Yes, it is a harder path... but it's still a legitimate path.
Click to expand...

@johnamo no matter what SDN says, I guess there is still a stigma in the field because he told me the same thing, that DO schools weren't equal with MD. And the surgeon who told me this was a younger guy, so it's not just older doctors
 
JPSmyth said:
something that really discouraged me from DO is that a surgeon told me to my face that I should avoid osteopathic school if I want to go into a competitive specialty. We were discussing what schools I would be applying to and I threw a DO name in there and he immediately shot that idea down.

I'm thinking that as long as my MCAT is above a 31 like people have said, I will be applying to 20-25 MD schools
Click to expand...

Here's the deal: for the most part, nobody actually cares, and if they do, they probably are just the type of person with some sort of warped superiority complex who wants to feel better about themselves because they have nothing better to do with themselves. Generally speaking, surgeons seem to be the kind of people who have superiority complexes (though by no means is it limited to them, nor is it all surgeons).

The truth of the matter is that DOs have the same practice rights in the US as MDs, plus some extra because they learn OMM, which I'm honestly half convinced is magic, and really wish I could learn. With the ACGME merger, I would expect that people will probably continue to care less and less about the letters after your name.


But really, if you've got something against being a DO, then don't apply to DO schools. (Yes, it really is that simple.)

My lack of patience for people with superiority complexes might be showing here...
The only legitimate reason that I can think of for counting out DO schools completely is if you have intentions of moving to and practicing in another country after you're done with your training, because not all countries are familiar with/recognize the US DO degree. And if that's the case, do your research.
 
JPSmyth said:
@johnamo no matter what SDN says, I guess there is still a stigma in the field because he told me the same thing, that DO schools weren't equal with MD. And the surgeon who told me this was a younger guy, so it's not just older doctors
Click to expand...
Haha yeah, I'm certainly not saying elitist old guys are the only ones who have issues with DOs. However, as DO numbers increase and residencies become more integrated, it's more likely that MDs will be training with and working side-by-side with DOs. Though I certainly expect to see a DO stigma persisting for my entire career, I believe it will lessen over time.
 
aconn51 said:
Here's the deal: for the most part, nobody actually cares, and if they do, they probably are just the type of person with some sort of warped superiority complex who wants to feel better about themselves because they have nothing better to do with themselves. Generally speaking, surgeons seem to be the kind of people who have superiority complexes (though by no means is it limited to them, nor is it all surgeons).

The truth of the matter is that DOs have the same practice rights in the US as MDs, plus some extra because they learn OMM, which I'm honestly half convinced is magic, and really wish I could learn. With the ACGME merger, I would expect that people will probably continue to care less and less about the letters after your name.


But really, if you've got something against being a DO, then don't apply to DO schools. (Yes, it really is that simple.)

My lack of patience for people with superiority complexes might be showing here...
The only legitimate reason that I can think of for counting out DO schools completely is if you have intentions of moving to and practicing in another country after you're done with your training, because not all countries are familiar with/recognize the US DO degree. And if that's the case, do your research.
Click to expand...

I definitely plan on staying in the US, but I have seen the match lists, and yes it is possible to become an orthopedic surgeon as a DO (mine was a DO when I got pins put in my arm) or any other competitive specialty, but it is more likely to match one of these residencies as an MD according to the data. (and I don't think I want to do primary care)
 
JPSmyth said:
I definitely plan on staying in the US, but I have seen the match lists, and yes it is possible to become an orthopedic surgeon as a DO (mine was a DO when I got pins put in my arm) or any other competitive specialty, but it is more likely to match one of these residencies as an MD according to the data. (and I don't think I want to do primary care)
Click to expand...

Its probably easier to do orthopedics as a DO due to all the AOA ortho resendecies. There might be a higher percentage of MDs but I would bet it would likely be easier in terms of strength of application to get into DO ortho. With aoa ortho you don't have to compete with MDs yet. However this will change after 2020 but it will be easier to do acgme ortho then.
 
DoctorSynthesis said:
Its probably easier to do orthopedics as a DO due to all the AOA ortho resendecies. There might be a higher percentage of MDs but I would bet it would likely be easier in terms of strength of application to get into DO ortho. With aoa ortho you don't have to compete with MDs yet. However this will change after 2020 but it will be easier to do acgme ortho then.
Click to expand...

Never thought of it that way, makes sense though. and also by the time I apply for residencies I believe that the merger will have already occurred. I don't think I actually want to go into ortho I was just using it as an example
 
JPSmyth said:
Never thought of it that way, makes sense though. and also by the time I apply for residencies I believe that the merger will have already occurred. I don't think I actually want to go into ortho I was just using it as an example
Click to expand...
By then everything will be merged anyway! So everyone is accredited by the same body. And it looks like there will even be a single match. So while discrimination will likely exist the best guess is that it will be less. The discrimination now isn't even that bad.
 
The stigma with DO's is almost purely due to those schools being easier to get into. So people are going to assume that you went DO because you could not get into an MD program, until they get to know you personally and perhaps learn otherwise. There's nothing inferior about the education. I had a girlfriend DO resident for a while, and she gave amazing osteopathic massages. So, you know, that's a bonus.
 
DoctorSynthesis said:
By then everything will be merged anyway! So everyone is accredited by the same body. And it looks like there will even be a single match. So while discrimination will likely exist the best guess is that it will be less. The discrimination now isn't even that bad.
Click to expand...

In my humble opinion, they should just abolish the DO title and go universal MD.
 
beachside said:
In my humble opinion, they should just abolish the DO title and go universal MD.
Click to expand...

That actually happened once in California. I wouldnt be surprised if it happened again. I would prefer for DOs to be changed to MDs and be accredited in osteopathy but I'm very proud to wear the title DO in the future. In the end the initials don't matter its what the initials acredit you for is what matters.
 
beachside said:
The stigma with DO's is almost purely due to those schools being easier to get into.
Click to expand...

I'm fairly certain that is the sole source of bias against DOs. I overheard some pre-meds talking and this kid goes, "DO school is where you go when you do terrible on your MCAT"
 
JPSmyth said:
I'm fairly certain that is the sole source of bias against DOs. I overheard some pre-meds talking and this kid goes, "DO school is where you go when you do terrible on your MCAT"
Click to expand...

beachside said:
The stigma with DO's is almost purely due to those schools being easier to get into. So people are going to assume that you went DO because you could not get into an MD program, until they get to know you personally and perhaps learn otherwise. There's nothing inferior about the education. I had a girlfriend DO resident for a while, and she gave amazing osteopathic massages. So, you know, that's a bonus.
Click to expand...

Its not due to admission standards. FSUcom doesn't have the same biases as touro com. Touro MCAT= 30 fsucom = 27. Its due to percieved lack of quality of rotations. This is a problem at some DO schools but not all. The school I will be attending shares it rotations with MD schools. Please note though that biases aren't that bad though.

Faq 7:http://med.fsu.edu/index.cfm?page=mdAdmissions.faqs
 
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