should i do a second degree?

[thekid007]

Hi all,

I've been a cruiser on these forums since (2005!), but this is my first post here. I'm 27, I live in Canada. Initially I was going to focus on medicine, but my passion was also in music. Also I did not feel ready for the commitment for medical school. I figured schools would always be around, so I tried my best to pursue my music career, and did some other stuff in the past years since out of high school (studied Psychology, and Computers). It was definitely, and has been an internal conflict for me, because in the back of my mind, 'I should do medicine' has always been gnawing at me, since I got out of high school (9 years!).

I went through some rough times towards the end of my high school years (father passed away from cancer in my senior year), and in my first year of university two more relatives passed away (2006). It also did not help that I followed my family's advice (read: pressure cooker environment and chose a university that was far away from home, because I got acceptance into the biology program there (I ended up switching out of it anyway!). It was a bad move because the commute (35 - 40 km's each way, 1.5 - 2 hrs by bus) affected my grades, and social support system heavily. I was super depressed, hospitalized once for panic disorder during those years (2007). I also developed some severe stomach problems, around this time I started getting more interested in health, nutrition, etc. I was a mess to say the least. I'd be lying if I said that I am still not improving myself. In hindsight, my intelligence had overshadowed my mental health/nerves, I realized this many years after, looking back into my childhood.

But it taught me A LOT about life, myself, my personality (for strength or weakness!), limits, etc. So with that out of the way, here are my gruesome 'stats.'

- BA in Psychology: 2005-2012. I started out with a BSc in Environmental Science, then switched to a BA in Psychology as I felt that was much more interesting at the time, and would give me a varied background. It was actually a difficult time in my life and went through some extenuating circumstances as mentioned, however I'm glad I completed it. I realized long-term Psychology was not really what I wanted to do, and that I would be wasting my scientific/technical capabilities.
- cGPA: 3.10-3.20 (I have not included courses from my recent program, not sure they'd count). I also transferred to a college at one point with the intent to go to a university closer to home, unfortunately I hit a credit restriction and my only option was to transfer back to the-far-away university. My cGPA would be higher if I also include those courses.
- I took a lot of other courses, including sociology, political science, international relations, my first year I did calculus, chemistry, biology, but my grades were low in these science courses (biology was the highest with an A at one point). I never failed a course, I withdrew one course in 2006, I basically dropped out at that time before classes started, because I just did not want to go to school. Funnily enough, the semester I did the best was when I had a full+ course-load of 16 credits (GPA was like 3.70). But those were more arts courses and a stats course.
- In my last year of undergrad in 2012, I did the last semester of Biology and Chemistry (just so I could leave with 1-year of biology and chemistry done), and my grades weren't so high. C+ (chem lecture) and B's. I know I am capable of better, and it had been awhile since I had done chem or bio.
- In the time I completed my degree, I worked part-time to make ends meet (gas station, retail, warehouse), although I lived at home, rent was the only thing I did not have to pay for (except in 2011/2012 when I lived on my own). Gas, car, insurance, food, etc was on me. I also paid for 90% of my tuition (I have some student loans I will still be paying off this year).
- I lived in a third-world country for 5 months as part of an Exchange Program with my university.
- I volunteered with a UN-based program related to North America and the Middle-East, facilitating classes, for 2 semester.
- I volunteered with inter-faith events (not sure I'd put this down though because religion is a touchy subject). I promoted blood drives, food banks within this capacity.

- Towards the end of my degree, I landed a job in my university's computing department. I liked the work, and saw that it could provide a viable backup alternative to medicine. Then...
- I went back to school in 2013, 6 months after graduating with my BA, and completed a 1-year intensive program in IT that lasted a year. My marks were very good in this program (cGPA 3.8 at least). I have not factored these into my cGPA. The school is a university-accredited school in Canada, and well known.
- After graduating, I worked for a high-tech company... I moved out of that city, to continue 'pursuing music', and have landed another great job. But I can see this field is more a stepping-stone for me, and working in a field that utilizes my full potential as an individual, with knowledge of the body, technical, and people is the only thing I can see being congruent with myself and values. Unfortunately, that field is medicine (I have thought of Dentistry as well because I love working with my hands, and the ability to work right out of school is a little more appealing, but don't know yet if that aligns with who I am as a person).

Some other points about me:
- I have always been attracted to humanitarian causes (as a child I started a blue-bin recycling program in my school that was later adopted by the rest of the school district). If I was to be a Doctor, I would love to be able to use my services for the greater good of humanity. Money provides little motivation for me. My friends, family, coworkers would attest to this.
- I am proficient at the guitar and part of the reason I delayed applying to medical school was so I could pursue my passion of music. I feel that I have now done what I needed to do, and feel that I could make a bigger difference in the world being a doctor.

Any advice appreciated. I have been looking at the Atlantic Bridge Program (I have a brother who went there), but now dentistry has sparked a bit of interest. The quality of life seems better with Dentistry, and ability to set your hours. However, I think medicine is still the option for me...

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[kraskadva]

First and foremost: What makes you want to go into medicine? And what shadowing or clinical experience have you had to confirm this desire?

You don't need to do another degree, but you will have to take more classes to 1) finish the med school pre-reqs, 2) prepare for the MCAT and 3) bring up your gpa (yes courses taken after you graduate are calculated into the gpa, so long as they are also undergrad level classes).

Also are you trying to get into Canadian or American med schools?

 

[thekid007]

hi kraskadva,

thanks for the response, I know my write up was rather too long. the part in bold, near the bottom, i tried to answer your question of why i want to be a doctor.

- no i havent shadowed/clinical experience with doctors formally (i have shadowed my doc brother, i wrote my experience below), and i am not even sure in canada (GTA) how i could do this as a mature 'student' whos not in school? im sure there are forums on here, so i will do some research.

1) medical school reqs --- doesn't this depend on which school i am applying to?
2) MCAT - no problem
3) bring up my gpa - how would you recommend is best way to do this? i feel i would have to do another degree, i think i finished my degree with something like 130 credits or something, and just finishing off reqs wouldn't bring it up by much? unless i repeated those calculus, chem classes. but the intent would be so i can get into a canadian school right? if it was atlantic bridge or carribean, i could just write the mcat and if i got a high mark, gpa could be weighted less? in other words, no need to bring up GPA.

- i am not particularly interested in american schools, moreso because i think the competition is too stiff, crazy tuition, and most importantly, lack of interest in living in the states. i'd be open to applying within canada (but feel i have no hope in hell of getting in here, maybe thats my own limiting belief), and pretty much open to anywhere else in the world (ireland, caribbean?, au/nz, malaysia, etc etc)...

you can ignore the points below if you have no time and can skip to bottom where i answered irectly your question about why i want to be a doc.

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- honestly, originally i was going to pursue medicine from high school, but music really sidetracked me. also the initial amount of studying my first year overwhelmed me, and i lost motivation for science on many levels, at the time as music was my passion. i also had a lot of self-doubt that time. in hindsight, i was in grief and was looking for meaning in life, and just didn't feel it in the sciences. so i switched to arts, psychology, i thought at the time maybe i could understand myself better. it was easier. although the irony was even in statistics for humanities, i would get like 95% and inside, i felt i let myself down, also because part of the reason i didnt pursue my science degree, was because i had bad social and performance anxiety in laboratories. i stuck with finishing my BA (even though deep down I wanted a BSc, tbh), and felt it still wouldn't restrict me from being a doc in the future if i wanted to apply for med.
- in terms of whether it was something i really wanted to do. for a while i wasn't even sure about pursuing medicine, i saw the long hours my brother did (he's a doctor), the incessant studying, exams, dealing with death, dying, went with him to work and spent a couple shifts with him to see what he did. it didn't particularly appeal to me at the time, in fact it seemed boring. he was a specialist in nephrology at the time, and i think it was actually that field didnt particularly interest me. also, most family docs ive had as a patient, super freaking sucked (my experience). lack of listening skills, empathy, and their job many times in my view turned into a pill-push. im not like that. so my negative perception of doctors didn't really help (my bro for example is constantly attached to his phone and has now become anti-social, no joke).

- however, it's always been in my mind to still do it, whenever i go to my family doc (who is awesome) im fascinated by the different diagnoses he can make and his vast knowledge of the human body. i really like the problem-solving part. i was reading reddit medicine the other day, and someone posted a case study, with all these different blood []s, scans, etc, and i thought it was a really fun puzzle to be able to solve. i have always admired doctors for their calmness and confidence, and i would love to be able to gain those skills. i can say for fact, that the fact that i haven't pursued medicine, makes me feel really ****ty about myself. i feel the other fields i have pursued, still are not congruent with who i can be. i am not sure if this is normal, maybe i have built up the idea of 'being a doctor' too much, but it is what it is. they are regular folks who happen to be intelligent and highly trained, but i feel my advantage over others is life experience, and the definite human factor/compassion and understanding, cuz i myself have been through lots of shI#. i really feel i am not living up to my potential if i don't do it. i feel if i didn't do it, its cuz of my own self-doubt. not sure if this makes sense.
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lastly, i think it really comes to down to this: i won't be satisfied with my life if i am not a doctor. now, i realize i could become a doctor and still not be happy. however, one of the things that has been making me feel very inconfident about myself is directly career related (i know this for fact), is the fact i never went down the medical path, and didn't fulfill my potential and mission as a person. i can't think of any other field that will utilize my full potential as a person, in terms of technical ability, health, and compassion. i've had so many people tell me i'd make a great doctor (in fact some people have said 'you'd make a great doctor' or 'i can see you being a doctor, one person was my good friend, another person was a stranger), but i always dismissed it because i just felt it wasn't for me at the time/wasn't sure if i would be doing it for myself, or my family. i have worked/experienced/volunteered lots of different fields from computers, environment science, policing, facilitating/teaching, humanities/arts. I feel medicine is the only one that moulds together my strengths as a person. i feel i would be selling myself, and the people i can help, short, if i was to become one of these other fields long-term.

let me know your thoughts when you have a chance. thank you.

 

[kraskadva]

For starters, I don't know anything about Canadian medical schools or their system, so can't help you with that aspect. However there is a whole other forum here just for that: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forums/canada.89/

Secondly, none of what you've said above convinces me that you have any idea of what you're trying to get yourself into. For example

i saw the long hours my brother did (he's a doctor), the incessant studying, exams, dealing with death, dying, went with him to work and spent a couple shifts with him to see what he did. it didn't particularly appeal to me at the time, in fact it seemed boring. he was a specialist in nephrology at the time, and i think it was actually that field didnt particularly interest me.

While you may not be interested in nephrology (I'm not particularly, it's not required) the bolded bits above are common to pretty much every field. In addition to mountains of paperwork, bureaucracy, fights with insurance companies for reimbursement, non-compliant patients, innumerable staff issues, innumerable repetitions of the bread and butter cases particular to the specialty, etc., etc.
There are a lot of crap parts of medicine. You have to have a really high tolerance for the majority of this stuff to be able to make it through not only the training, but the years of practice as well. You also need to find the parts of it that not only interest you, but give you a reason to get up in the morning and go back into the fray every day.
If a couple shifts of boredom were enough to deter you from pursuing medicine initially, what makes you think you're not going to have that and worse day after day in the years ahead? What makes you want to pursue a field that guarantees you will go through those bits you didn't like pretty much every day for the rest of your working life?

Now, very important, I'm not saying this to be dismissive or convince you that you shouldn't go into medicine. I am saying this because if you can't convince me (a total stranger on the internet) that you really want to be a doc and know what it takes, then you aren't likely to convince any admissions person either (and when you submit your app to them, they are essentially a total stranger on the internet as well).
So my first and strongest recommendation to you would be to get clinical experience. Shadowing is good and necessary, but I'm talking more along the lines of working in a hospital (phlebotomist, nurse's assistant, etc) doing the low level caretaking that will show you what it really means to take care of someone medically. If you can do that and come out jazzed to go to med school and gain what you need to be more involved in patient care, then I would be convinced. If you decide that medicine isn't for you after the umpteenth time of sponge bathing the diarrhea off of somebody, then you haven't lost much and can go back to whatever other field with a clear conscience.

The other bits...

1) medical school reqs --- doesn't this depend on which school i am applying to?

Mostly no, at least in the US (verify for Canada). US med schools individually might have an extra course or two more required, but generally they're the same: 1 year sequence + lab each for General Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, General Biology, and Physics. Biochemistry and Psychology/Sociology are now required for the MCAT and are beginning to creep into MS pre-reqs as well.

2) MCAT - no problem

No problem in that you've already taken it (not mentioned above...) or no problem because you think you can do that pretty easily? If the latter, then think again.
Also does Canada have their own version of this?

3) bring up my gpa - how would you recommend is best way to do this? i feel i would have to do another degree, i think i finished my degree with something like 130 credits or something, and just finishing off reqs wouldn't bring it up by much? unless i repeated those calculus, chem classes. but the intent would be so i can get into a canadian school right? if it was atlantic bridge or carribean, i could just write the mcat and if i got a high mark, gpa could be weighted less? in other words, no need to bring up GPA.

You'll never bring that gpa up by much even if you did a whole other degree (believe me, I've tried. The math just don't work that way).
What you can do is establish a more recent, much higher gpa which can be viewed as reinvention and prove you're ready academically.
American DO schools will do grade replacement for repeated courses, which can help the overall average, Don't know if this would work the same way in Canada.

Don't do Carribean. Search around here for reasons why not; it's been discussed extensively.
Atlantic bridge is slightly better, but still an iffy proposition for somewhat similar reasons.

 

[thekid007]

hi kraskadva,

thanks for the reply, i hear what you are saying. after reading your posts, i understand what you are saying. yes, i definite need some clinical experience...working would be ideal but not feasible in my situation...volunteering would be feasible...let me clarify some of the qs u had...

- some of the points you made, are you sure they extrapolate to being a doctor? i.e. "umpteenth time of sponge bathing diarrhea off somebody", granted i believe if anyone had to do that infinite times, they would not want to be a doctor. being around that (cleaning), and helping prevent that from happening are two different things (choosing a treatment plan that helps alleviate those symptoms), although related are not the same. i respect the people that do that of course however. im also not sure if working in low-level care is necessary for entrance, as i've read for example that many medical schools look at different kinds of volunteering you have done and that clinical experience wasn't necessary although helpful (in western canada uni's i mean). i've worked lots of routine, physically-intensive jobs, i actually think cleaning someone's shi* would be way more internally rewarding than other jobs i've worked where you're just making money for someone else.

- by mcat no problem, i didn't mean its easy. i meant doing it and getting a good mark. however because i feel closer to a decision that this is the path for me now, i dont have any conflicts internally w.r.t to studying for long hours for a long exam. studying doesn't bother me. studying without knowing what your purpose of studying for, does. which is why i didn't study for medicine before, because i wasn't sure that it was the field for me.

- the issue of paperwork, bureacratic issues, etc doesn't bother me, i mentioned it initially though to show that i've seen the 'dark' side of medicine. i think i should also mention, my brother completed three different specialties, and later i found out that wasn't typical or required for medicine. so i saw the more negative side of what it can do to you (negative, not being the fact he did 3 specialties, the effect on him as a person). interesting about atlantic bridge/carribean, i will check out the forums for that. i know someone who did atlantic bridge, and four other docs i know did caribbean...all are practicing in canada (one is a director)...although they had a few hoops to jump through...

"If a couple shifts of boredom were enough to deter you from pursuing medicine initially, what makes you think you're not going to have that and worse day after day in the years ahead? What makes you want to pursue a field that guarantees you will go through those bits you didn't like pretty much every day for the rest of your working life"

- i phrased this wrong. it didn't deter me, but gave me a realistic perspective of what it can be, and of course there are boring parts to any job. at the time i did not feel ready for the commitment because of my other interests and passions. i did feel those aspects were an area that was good to be aware of, but despite that i think the ability to help physically sick people get better is specific to medicine, and being the go-to person to help decide and manage someone's health is of definite interest to me...

what exactly drew you to medicine, how did you realize this was the path for you?

 

[kraskadva]

hi kraskadva,

thanks for the reply, i hear what you are saying. after reading your posts, i understand what you are saying. yes, i definite need some clinical experience...working would be ideal but not feasible in my situation...volunteering would be feasible...let me clarify some of the qs u had...

- some of the points you made, are you sure they extrapolate to being a doctor? i.e. "umpteenth time of sponge bathing diarrhea off somebody", granted i believe if anyone had to do that infinite times, they would not want to be a doctor. being around that (cleaning), and helping prevent that from happening are two different things (choosing a treatment plan that helps alleviate those symptoms), although related are not the same. i respect the people that do that of course however. im also not sure if working in low-level care is necessary for entrance, as i've read for example that many medical schools look at different kinds of volunteering you have done and that clinical experience wasn't necessary although helpful (in western canada uni's i mean). i've worked lots of routine, physically-intensive jobs, i actually think cleaning someone's shi* would be way more internally rewarding than other jobs i've worked where you're just making money for someone else.

Don't miss the forest for the trees...
While your duties as a doctor may not include sponge baths, they will include up close interactions with every manner of body fluid AND dealing compassionately (or at least professionally) with people at the low points in their lives. Low level caretaking is one way you can a) practice for those sorts of interactions, b) make sure for yourself that you can handle it and c) prove to other people that you can handle it.

- by mcat no problem, i didn't mean its easy. i meant doing it and getting a good mark. however because i feel closer to a decision that this is the path for me now, i dont have any conflicts internally w.r.t to studying for long hours for a long exam. studying doesn't bother me. studying without knowing what your purpose of studying for, does. which is why i didn't study for medicine before, because i wasn't sure that it was the field for me.

Average score on the MCAT is ~25. It's a standardized test. Most people score around a 25.
Don't be overconfident. It's been the downfall of many.

- interesting about atlantic bridge/carribean, i will check out the forums for that. i know someone who did atlantic bridge, and four other docs i know did caribbean...all are practicing in canada (one is a director)...although they had a few hoops to jump through...

If those docs you know have been in practice for >5 years, take all the "hoops to jump through" that they told you about and multiply by 100 to get the current ballpark of difficulty. If they've been in practice >10 years, multiply by 1000.

- the issue of paperwork, bureacratic issues, etc doesn't bother me, i mentioned it initially though to show that i've seen the 'dark' side of medicine. i think i should also mention, my brother completed three different specialties, and later i found out that wasn't typical or required for medicine. so i saw the more negative side of what it can do to you (negative, not being the fact he did 3 specialties, the effect on him as a person).....i phrased this wrong. it didn't deter me, but gave me a realistic perspective of what it can be, and of course there are boring parts to any job. at the time i did not feel ready for the commitment because of my other interests and passions. i did feel those aspects were an area that was good to be aware of, but despite that i think the ability to help physically sick people get better is specific to medicine, and being the go-to person to help decide and manage someone's health is of definite interest to me...

You didn't feel ready then, and you still haven't said why you feel ready now. I'm still not convinced.
"Helping someone get better" and "managing someone's health" are the nice, happy, uber-whitewashed highlights of what a doctor does. The reality is far more complex and contains much more of "the dark side" then you seem to recognize.
As @Goro often says "Medicine is a calling, like being a priest or a fireman, or a teacher." Meaning that if you don't have a fire in the belly that makes any other career inconceivable, then you're probably going down the wrong road.
And again, not to imply that you don't have this, but all I'm hearing so far is your "interest" in the idealized/idolized, TV version of medicine. Which doesn't really exist.

what exactly drew you to medicine, how did you realize this was the path for you?

Long story, which I don't particularly feel like retyping right now, but it's on SDN in bits and pieces if you feel like searching for it.
Highlights: grew up in medicine, was fully cognizant of "the dark side" early on, so even though I had the calling and the fascination, I spent years seeing if I could find another career that would be as satisfying but easier. Didn't find it, did a lot of soul searching and worked through the personal tests I set up myself, then came back to the med path.

 

[Buccaneer 11]

Hello Kraskadva,

when you say you did a lot of soul searching and worked through the personal tests you set up yourself; are there any examples of this that helped you reach your conclusion of med path?
I have been reading books, forums, doing research and I am starting a volunteer position at a hospital to see what its like being a part of it... i would be a non-trad student as I am 28 and have a full time job at a completely different business field.

 

[kraskadva]

Hello Kraskadva,

when you say you did a lot of soul searching and worked through the personal tests you set up yourself; are there any examples of this that helped you reach your conclusion of med path?
I have been reading books, forums, doing research and I am starting a volunteer position at a hospital to see what its like being a part of it... i would be a non-trad student as I am 28 and have a full time job at a completely different business field.

I don't know that I have many examples of things that would be replicable for the general applicant...
The things I had to work through were more personal issues- I had run away from medicine in a fit of teenage angst because I hated the business of it, but as an adult I went back and helped managed my dad's office for about a year to show myself that it wasn't so bad, or at least no worse than managing any other business. I'm still pretty sure I don't want to do private-practice primary care, but that's more preference than can't/won't.
But there are very few people with either the knowledge or opportunity to walk in and take over practice management, so it isn't something I could recommend as a pre-med experience.

I also had a lot of conversations with docs in different specialties, but the sort of questions I was asking were far more specific than I think the average pre-med would ask. Because, like I said, I grew up with medicine (working in my dad's practice and with a family of docs) so I was really familiar with the ins and outs of daily life as a doctor already.
I did do some more shadowing, just 'cause, but that was more icing on the cake and exploratory, than critical for me.

However, if you haven't been immersed in medicine, if the only knowledge you have of it comes from reading/watching TV, then you absolutely have to get clinical experience of some variety before you jump into this. If you don't know what patients smell like, and what you'd actually be doing day to day as a doctor, what makes you think you want to be one? And what could you possibly use to convince an adcom (especially as a non-trad) that you know what you're getting into?
As a non-trad and a career changer, you can't afford to be naive.

So volunteer, shadow, work a clinical job if possible, and make d*mn sure this is what you want. Because it's really, really hard to get off this roller coaster once the ride starts and you don't want to be halfway (or all the way) through your very expensive training before you find out that you can't stand the smell.

 

[Buccaneer 11]

I don't know that I have many examples of things that would be replicable for the general applicant...
The things I had to work through were more personal issues- I had run away from medicine in a fit of teenage angst because I hated the business of it, but as an adult I went back and helped managed my dad's office for about a year to show myself that it wasn't so bad, or at least no worse than managing any other business. I'm still pretty sure I don't want to do private-practice primary care, but that's more preference than can't/won't.
But there are very few people with either the knowledge or opportunity to walk in and take over practice management, so it isn't something I could recommend as a pre-med experience.

I also had a lot of conversations with docs in different specialties, but the sort of questions I was asking were far more specific than I think the average pre-med would ask. Because, like I said, I grew up with medicine (working in my dad's practice and with a family of docs) so I was really familiar with the ins and outs of daily life as a doctor already.
I did do some more shadowing, just 'cause, but that was more icing on the cake and exploratory, than critical for me.

However, if you haven't been immersed in medicine, if the only knowledge you have of it comes from reading/watching TV, then you absolutely have to get clinical experience of some variety before you jump into this. If you don't know what patients smell like, and what you'd actually be doing day to day as a doctor, what makes you think you want to be one? And what could you possibly use to convince an adcom (especially as a non-trad) that you know what you're getting into?
As a non-trad and a career changer, you can't afford to be naive.

So volunteer, shadow, work a clinical job if possible, and make d*mn sure this is what you want. Because it's really, really hard to get off this roller coaster once the ride starts and you don't want to be halfway (or all the way) through your very expensive training before you find out that you can't stand the smell.

Thank you for your reply... Thats exactly what I'm trying to do right now to be absolutely sure that this is what I want. Its difficult to get the chance to have access to all the ins and outs and daily lives of doctors and differences for each specialty when you don't have many connections or family, but you have to start somewhere and thats what I am trying to do. thanks again for the feedback!