Should I find a new lab?

[premed12345]

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I have good stats and I'm planning to apply to top research-ranking medical schools in a few cycles, possibly MD/PhD. I've been doing research in a lab for about a year, and I really like it so far. However, I'm very concerned that I won't be able to get any publications (even co-author) in this lab. I'll be starting a new project very shortly, and I had a long discussion about the project with my PI a few days ago. She mentioned the project and then said that she thinks the project would be good for me because, unlike her grad students/post docs, I don't need to be getting publications, and this project has a low chance of resulting in a publication.
Opinions? Should I find a new lab? Should I talk to my PI frankly and ask her if I can work on a more publishable project? I'm terrified that my lack of publications will keep me out of top schools.

 

[Lukkie]

don't need pubs but i'd question the reason this project is being done if it has no hope of being a part of a pub

 

[ChairmanMao]

I have good stats and I'm planning to apply to top research-ranking medical schools in a few cycles, possibly MD/PhD. I've been doing research in a lab for about a year, and I really like it so far. However, I'm very concerned that I won't be able to get any publications (even co-author) in this lab. I'll be starting a new project very shortly, and I had a long discussion about the project with my PI a few days ago. She mentioned the project and then said that she thinks the project would be good for me because, unlike her grad students/post docs, I don't need to be getting publications, and this project has a low chance of resulting in a publication.
Opinions? Should I find a new lab? Should I talk to my PI frankly and ask her if I can work on a more publishable project? I'm terrified that my lack of publications will keep me out of top schools.

Wow, well at least your PI was being honest and not leading you on. What kind of research are you involved in and what does your PI do? Is this a part time gig or have you worked full time on this for a year?

Have you mentioned your wishes and needs to your PI? It may be that she doesn't realize that a publication is important for admission to an MD/Ph.D. program. If there really isn't any potential for future publication, I would switch to another lab. But be forwarned, your chances of getting a publication at this stage (as an undergrad or a premed) is entirely up to chance. You may get lucky and swoop into a lab that is on the cusp of a breakthrough and get 5 papers out in a year. Or you could end up with a non-productive lab and be stuck there for another year without producing any published results.

I would really have a discussion with you PI about your future research project. See if you can convince here to let you write a couple of abstracts, make a couple of presentations, etc. If not, then it may be time to pack up and leave.

 

[StIGMA]

It may be that she doesn't realize that a publication is important for admission to an MD/Ph.D. program.

This is NOT true. At top programs publications are not requisite nor are they the deciding factor in admission for undergrads straight out of college. If you worked full time at the NIH for 3 years post-grad, yeah you want a pub. It does not matter in most instances for any MD/PhD program whether or not you publish. At this stage, especially in life sciences, publication is entirely out of your hands and is much more dependent on the lab and the PI and the programs know this. Do not worry about publications - worry about learning science and presenting and developing a passion that you can show your future interviewers. Read up on science outside your field and know major questions in fields.

If there really isn't any potential for future publication, I would switch to another lab.
I would really have a discussion with you PI about your future research project. See if you can convince here to let you write a couple of abstracts, make a couple of presentations, etc. If not, then it may be time to pack up and leave.

Yes.

Also, go to the main page and then check out the MD/PhD forums and FAQ.

 

[JennaQ]

Out of personal curiosity, are there any cross-applicable lab skills you feel you have gained from this experience that you feel makes you more skilled to become a MD/PHD than other candidates?

 

[tiedyeddog]

I have good stats and I'm planning to apply to top research-ranking medical schools in a few cycles, possibly MD/PhD.

GPA, MCAT, and length of research/ability to explain what you did during your research time are all more important than getting a authorship.

P.S. the top-MSTP programs will likely require god-like numbers and research experience.

 

[TexasPhysician]

While a lack of publications might not hurt you when applying to medical school, research is useless in the long-run if you don't publish. Residency programs in many fields like to see publications. If you want to go into academic medicine, publications are very important.

Being completely honest, I would not start doing research without my PI agreeing that it is likely that I will publish and be in the top 3 authors at least. If not, it isn't worth my time.

 

[premed12345]

Thanks for the replies. So do you think I should talk to my PI about publishing, or should I just start over in a new lab? She's never worked with an undergraduate before, so maybe she just doesn't get that it is important for undergrads to be involved in pubs.
The deal with this project is that it's sort of going out on a limb...and it will either result in nothing (most likely), or else it will be really groundbreaking in our field. None of the grad students have wanted to take on this project because more than likely it won't pan out.
I'm not 100% set on MD/PhD yet. How about regular MD admissions at top research schools? How important are publications in that case?

 

[majestic red]

I don't know about MD/PhD programs, but I don't think publications are that important for regular MD programs. As someone who's gotten into a handful of top 20 schools with no publications, I think it's more important for you to show commitment by staying in the same lab for an extended amount of time. You'll probably be able to get a great LOR out of it, too, which is definitely more important than getting a pub. I think you should only leave your current lab if you're not interested in the research or if you don't like your PI.

 

[ChairmanMao]

Thanks for the replies. So do you think I should talk to my PI about publishing, or should I just start over in a new lab? She's never worked with an undergraduate before, so maybe she just doesn't get that it is important for undergrads to be involved in pubs.
The deal with this project is that it's sort of going out on a limb...and it will either result in nothing (most likely), or else it will be really groundbreaking in our field. None of the grad students have wanted to take on this project because more than likely it won't pan out.
I'm not 100% set on MD/PhD yet. How about regular MD admissions at top research schools? How important are publications in that case?

No, publications are not necessary for regular MD programs. As someone else said, publications aren't even necessary for MD/Ph.D. programs, however, it would be a big plus if you can get your name on something, especially if you work in the same lab for two straight years.

You haven't clarified whether or not you work part time in this lab. Also what kind of research are you involved in? If it's something new and obscure, then it may be harder to get a publication in one of the recognized journals. However, if your research is in a broad category such as biochemistry, genetics, or cell culturing, then there are probably numerous journals and presentations that you can submit to.

As for leaving your lab, I would try and talk with your PI first. Maybe she doesn't understand how seriously you are taking this (and she may see you as nothing more than cheap labor). It may also be possible that she is too busy to bother supervising or directing you. Then you'll have to go at it alone and try to turn this into an independent project.

 

[Red Leader]

Switching labs will set you back even MORE than sticking in this one lab in terms of publications unless your dad happens to run the other lab.

Picking a lab where you were not clear about the PI being a supportive advisor was an error on your part. A publication is by no means required for MD-PhD, but you will be competing with others who have dozens of pubs and the numbers and that can talk about their research. So the question is, what will set you apart from them?

 

[nancy0223]

Thanks for the replies. So do you think I should talk to my PI about publishing, or should I just start over in a new lab? She's never worked with an undergraduate before, so maybe she just doesn't get that it is important for undergrads to be involved in pubs.
The deal with this project is that it's sort of going out on a limb...and it will either result in nothing (most likely), or else it will be really groundbreaking in our field. None of the grad students have wanted to take on this project because more than likely it won't pan out.
I'm not 100% set on MD/PhD yet. How about regular MD admissions at top research schools? How important are publications in that case?

It seems that most consensus agree that undergrads are not expected to produce anything, especially since pubs are really PhD students' jobs. Even if you do make it clear to your PI that you're here for a pub, don't expect that you will get your name on a paper for sure.

 

[NickNaylor]

I would recommend the following:

1) Don't switch labs. It'll give your current relationship with the PI the shaft.

2) I would recommend sticking with the project. It sounds like it will very much be your own since the PI isn't expecting much anyway. This could be a very valuable experience from the M.D./Ph.D. point of view. You'll have the opportunity to design your own experiments, interpret data, and draw conclusions from the work you've done. No, it may not result in a publication, but the experience could be much better than an experience that results in an automatic publication.

 

[YeOldeMan]

As RedLeader said, switching is not gonna help. You can't just hop into a lab and get a publication. It take time, consistency, and commitment.

And yes, go talk to your TI (whats a TI - is that the faculty member you're working with?)...tell them you're going for an MD/PhD, and that a publication is quite important. Some will tell you that it's about the "valuable lab experience," but in reality, MD/PhD guys are the gunners of the gunners, and expect that the competition WILL have multiple publications (I don't know about dozens, not even I have dozens =D). Expect to compete with guys who wrote a thesis for undergrad.

Definitely go hustle those posters, presentations, etc. It may be too late to do much else.

 

[orrghead16]

MD/PhD guys are the gunners of the gunners, and expect that the competition WILL have multiple publications (I don't know about dozens, not even I have dozens =D). Expect to compete with guys who wrote a thesis for undergrad.

A fella just graduated with his PhD out of our department. He had a baker's dozen actual pubs in press. Everyone thought he was a god. If an undergrad actually had 12 in press by app time, I would kiss his or her feet. Fact: there are many (if not most) MD/PhD applicants without true publications. Plenty have "authorship" on "in preparation", "submitted", etc. There will be some with 12 or more abstracts, presentations, posters, AND peer-reviewed journals. Some will have their name on a true publication, that is peer reviewed and NCBI, (most as <2nd author) that is actually in press. A few will have true 2nd author pubs. Very few have first authorships in press. Only a select portion will have a first author on a journal above medium impact by application time. Don't let the "threat" (rather, more like a reality for most undergrads, my point was) of not publishing scare you, OP.

IMO, publications are one of the most overrated elements to MD/PhD applications. There are just way too many variables to consider in order to compare undergraduate publication records. Folks have to put it in perspective how admissions committees evaluate candidates. Sure, publications help and look impressive, but they are NOT how MD/PhD applicants get judged.

OP, stick with it, sounds like a good lab. Undergrads often get put on high-risk projects. It goes with the territory. The main project I have had so far was the same way. It has no chance of getting published by next fall. But it is interesting as all hell and I am addicted to it. Couldn't really ask for more.

As a side note, all publications that have come down my road occurred because of side projects and luck and not even distantly related to "my" project. It may matter some that your project is high-risk, but it is much much less important than the quality PI you have and her ability to give credit where credit is due further down the line. Furthermore, the guarantees and ideas about publications this far away are about 95% meaningless. Every time, no matter what lab you are in. Going in looking for publications is a pre-med mentality that is far too flawed. If you wander around your entire undergrad research career looking for publications, you are going to miss the point. Consequently, it is this mentality that makes most undergraduates worthless in the lab (funny how it works out, huh?). Rather, pubs arise because of ability, dedication, and luck. Most PIs completely realize this.

 

[tiedyeddog]

IMO, publications are one of the most overrated elements to MD/PhD applications. There are just way too many variables to consider in order to compare undergraduate publication records. Folks have to put it in perspective how admissions committees evaluate candidates. Sure, publications help and look impressive, but they are NOT how MD/PhD applicants get judged.

Seriously, this is church. It's more important to be able to communicate during your interviews what you did compared to the importance of any authorship. I know of some of my peers in undergrad who have gotten authorships, albeit 6th or 7th, for washing dishes or contributing little to nothing intellectually to the paper. I bet those people fare pretty badly when asked what they contributed. FYI, you can't make **** up.

 

[Red Leader]

Seriously, this is church. It's more important to be able to communicate during your interviews what you did compared to the importance of any authorship. I know of some of my peers in undergrad who have gotten authorships, albeit 6th or 7th, for washing dishes or contributing little to nothing intellectually to the paper. I bet those people fare pretty badly when asked what they contributed. FYI, you can't make **** up.

Yes obviously here tiedeyeddog makes the most important point which is talking about what you did. Keep in mind if you did jack **** and got lucky and got your name on a paper, it will be revealed sooner or later.

I have put people on my papers that did NOTHING simply because authorship is generally up to the PI and I am cool with whatever unless I did 99% of the work and was put 2nd to last or something. Then I might have to make an appointment to talk about it and negotiate a better position or at least find a way to understand.

In any case, based on how well you can talk about a project you will reveal what you know and what you did. Simply reading a paper will NOT give you as much information on a project versus someone who actually did the experiments. The paper is basically a condensed version of MONTHS of work and only the good stuff. The bad crap, the reasoning, the design, the frustration, the experience...those you cannot get out of just reading a paper someone else wrote and you happened to be on because the PI is your daddy or something. We all know this is true because if you have ever read a paper you will see parts where you felt another experiment would support their point more, or that their discussion and experiments do not warrant their conclusion and what not.

On the flip side, I seriously doubt someone who has a dozen publications will not be able to talk about their own projects in a logical manner. Again, there are those special cases where someone held their hand and protected them from the rigors of research but for the most part most MD-PhD applicants will know what's up.

More specific advice to you here is to change your MINDSET. No offense, but you seem like you are in a hurry to get a pub and bail. Drop that mindset, do the work and you will be rewarded. Look at what your PI said:

She said: "low chance of resulting in a pub."
You immediately think: "ohh damn no pub will be handed to me...time to switch labs"

Wrong, you need to think like this.

She said: "low chance of resulting in a pub."
You immediately think: "ok low chance, but still a chance...I need to make this project better than she imagines it to be."

That is completely possible to do in your situation so make the best of it.