should I pick another residency?

[WSP]

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[PenguinHead]

In 2007 only 2 out of 11 people who ranked ortho and had a 180-190 matched. And those were the 11 people who actually recieved interviews.

Your step 2 score will not cancel out your setp 1. It may, however, slightly improve your chances if you ace it.

As far as away rotations go, if you can only imagine yourself doing ortho, your away rotations are your best shot at getting an interview (aside from your home program, which you don't like)

If you really want to do ortho, go for it, but be aware that it is highly likely that you won't match. You need to have a backup plan in place. Depending on what you want, you could apply to and rank some general surgery programs at the bottom of your list, but with a 185, GS isn't a given either. You could make plans and have a research position available in your home ortho department in case you don't match.

It's a high risk to go for ortho in your position. Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[indo]

I have always wanted to do ortho. I'm a MSIII at an American Medical School. I had a bad test day and made a 185. I made mostly B's my first three years. I have a paper published in Brain Tumors and Imaging. I'm president of the Surgery Interest Group. I can bench press 305lbs. I am scheduled to take Step 2 in July during my month off. I am interested in ortho but do not want to do it at my school here.

1. Will a good step 2 score cancel out my step 1 score?
2. Will my away rotations even matter since I made a 185 step 1?

Any advice?

You wrote in another thread that you were dead-set on Ortho. With that in mind, here is some advice given to some students in my class by some of our ortho staff:
If your step I doesn't represent your ability your step II must. Programs have "soft cutoffs" for board scores...so take your A game and your UnderArmour with you in july. Side note on Step II scores, if your application shows that you have taken step II but haven't released the score the program can see your score if they want to. This was first hand information. Don't blow off step two.

edit: Also, you should start training for triathlons.

 

[WSP]

"I just want to fit in" P.B.

You wrote in another thread that you were dead-set on Ortho. With that in mind, here is some advice given to some students in my class by some of our ortho staff:
If your step I doesn't represent your ability your step II must. Programs have "soft cutoffs" for board scores...so take your A game and your UnderArmour with you in july. Side note on Step II scores, if your application shows that you have taken step II but haven't released the score the program can see your score if they want to. This was first hand information. Don't blow off step two.

edit: Also, you should start training for triathlons.

 

[drivesmecraazee]

I have always wanted to do ortho. I'm a MSIII at an American Medical School. I had a bad test day and made a 185. I made mostly B's my first three years. I have a paper published in Brain Tumors and Imaging. I'm president of the Surgery Interest Group. I can bench press 305lbs. I am scheduled to take Step 2 in July during my month off. I am interested in ortho but do not want to do it at my school here.

1. Will a good step 2 score cancel out my step 1 score?
2. Will my away rotations even matter since I made a 185 step 1?

Any advice?

Does this actually matter?!? Im asking seriously, I would like the REAL answer please!!!

 

[MediumDef]

Does this actually matter?!? Im asking seriously, I would like the REAL answer please!!!

Only for a girl, for a guy he's on the wrong side of 350.




(In the interest of not being a complete dill-hole the answer is no)

 

[drivesmecraazee]

Only for a girl, for a guy he's on the wrong side of 350.




(In the interest of not being a complete dill-hole the answer is no)

Thank GOD dude!! Im getting a little bit tired of the stereotype that orthopods are dumb and huge. Some people buy it in such a strong way, they think that "fiting in" is more important than having an actual interest and passion for othopedic surgery...so ridiculous.

What if someome doesn't "fit in"??? Can't be an orthopod????' C'mon....it's getting pretty old 🙄

 

[MediumDef]

Thank GOD dude!! Im getting a little bit tired of the stereotype that orthopods are dumb and huge. Some people buy it in such a strong way, they think that "fiting in" is more important than having an actual interest and passion for othopedic surgery...so ridiculous.

What if someome doesn't "fit in"??? Can't be an orthopod????' C'mon....it's getting pretty old 🙄

Don't extrapolate what I wrote to mean the above. "fitting in" is probably the most important thing in almost any residency, especially surgical ones that can be a little stressful. If you are not seen as a team player and somebody that the other residents want to see 80+ hrs a week then no amount of passion for the specialty will save you.

The truth is that orthopaedics unsurprisingly attracts many who are interested in sports, ex-jocks themselves, leading to the macho stereotyping. You don't need to share all these passions to "fit in" but you do need a common ground, and if you find yourself at the hospital with 30 residents interested in crochet and La Boheme then you better break out some opera glasses

 

[drivesmecraazee]

Don't extrapolate what I wrote to mean the above. "fitting in" is probably the most important thing in almost any residency, especially surgical ones that can be a little stressful. If you are not seen as a team player and somebody that the other residents want to see 80+ hrs a week then no amount of passion for the specialty will save you.

The truth is that orthopaedics unsurprisingly attracts many who are interested in sports, ex-jocks themselves, leading to the macho stereotyping. You don't need to share all these passions to "fit in" but you do need a common ground, and if you find yourself at the hospital with 30 residents interested in crochet and La Boheme then you better break out some opera glasses

Sure one must share some interests with the other residents, luckily for me, I do enjoy sports...but Im not exactly crazy for weight lifting.
Personalities in a given speciality should be similar, but it's not like your biceps must have the same measure.
😀

 

[Sarcoidosis]

Talking about interests... I fell in love with Orthopedic Surgery during my 2 week elective. The OR cases, the emergencies, the machinery, the cement, the sheer physicality involved in doing the cases were all a lot of fun and I sort of felt guilty about not loving general surgery as much. Now that I was fortunate to get into a prelim surgery year, what should I do to focus on getting an Ortho postion during my prelim year.

A few things that you all are discussing that applies or doesn't apply to me is that my step 1 is decent however, my step 2 is horrible. Secondly, "fitting in wise" I rotated with big attendings ... and also big ladies(mostly PA's) mostly everyone over 6 ft tall. I am a few inches shy of 6 ft and in no way bulky, more of a runner.

What should my focus be... research... bulking up (joking)... talking to ortho directors...

thanks

 

[Hampster10]

I have always wanted to do ortho. I'm a MSIII at an American Medical School. I had a bad test day and made a 185. I made mostly B's my first three years. I have a paper published in Brain Tumors and Imaging. I'm president of the Surgery Interest Group. I can bench press 305lbs. I am scheduled to take Step 2 in July during my month off. I am interested in ortho but do not want to do it at my school here.

1. Will a good step 2 score cancel out my step 1 score?
2. Will my away rotations even matter since I made a 185 step 1?

Any advice?

.

 

[gostudy]

I hope I don't sound mean but seriously, spare yourself the heartache and the expense- fall in love with something else.

A good step 2 score will not make your step 1 score invisible to prog dir's and coordinators and interview cutoffs NEVER go below 220. Some away rotations require a step 1 score of 230 and above before you're accepted.

Ortho is notorious for its emphasis on the away rotation/visiting elective. The more of them you have, typically the better your chances of matching. Aways are expensive on many levels including the fact that you have to pay double rent, etc AND spots go quickly...all of the time and energy spent may turn out to be an exercise in futility.

Most people who apply to orthopedics have a minimum of 230s and numbers go as high as 260s. While that is not the only criterion that determines your competitiveness, you should consider that a program may be more inclined to take some other guy with a 250s score, great publications, great letters and great grades. And in the ortho applicant pool, trust me, these guys are a dime a dozen.

Trust me, fall in love with something else. I don't mean to sound grim but I would like to spare you the trouble.

If there's one lesson I've learned, it's that enthusiasm and interest, blah, blah, blah, will NEVER make up for even high average numbers. and in ortho, it's ALL ABOUT NUMBERS, regardless of what people tell you.

I have to say that this is the worst piece of advice I've heard in a long while.

First off, to the OP, let's not kid ourselves. A 185 is not a competitive score for pretty much any residency let alone a more competitive one like ortho. And chances are, you will not match into a program directly out of med school. But...

You've worked way too hard, sweated too many bullets, and spent too much money to let some guy on a message board dash your dreams. If there is one piece of advice worth taking from "orthogunner" (pretty much the best and most consistent blog out there for those aspiring ortho) it's this: "Let us please reiterate, if your dream is to do Ortho, follow your calling and don't let anybody stop you."

Now, clearly ortho is a competitive field and in general one needs to have good marks in med school to match straight out of med school. But I'm sorry, the numbers quoted above are just off. It is true, some programs have cutoffs in the mid 230s for Step I and others in the 220s, but there are programs out there that use loose cutoffs if any at all. Just take a look at NRMP's most recent match data. A significant number of applicants below 220 matched. Now, these applicants certainly had other things going for them like research projects and good grades, but a Step I score good or bad does not guarantee you an acceptance or rejection to many programs. Just look at the 240 and 250 folks that don't match and the 210-220 folks that do match.

Speaking to the OP again. Realistically, you should consider that any score below 220 puts you at a major disadvantage at matching ortho at any program let alone the top flights. And anything below 190 pretty much closes the door on matching straight out of med school. But it does not close the door on your goal to becoming an orthpedist. Take control of what you can control now. With what remains of your third year do your best and excel. Study early and hard for Step II to show PDs that you are serious about doing ortho. Find mentors and a sponsors. Get hooked onto a research project or projects. You probably won't be able to match from 4th year but start to have back up plans like a year of research or a prelim year in Gen Surg and reapply that way. Get to know every single attending in your home program. Even if you don't like your progam, FAKE IT. Because the relationships you start building now will be invaluable for you when you will need someone to put in a call for you to get an interview when you do apply. And more likely that not you will need someone to put in a call for you. Don't give up, but be smart and realistic.

 

[Wahoos]

To the OP, I think your Step I definitely put you on a uphill battle to get into Orthopedic surgery. What is the reputation of your medical school and do you have anything else in the app that can seperate you out from the rest of the applicants? My advice is that, if Ortho is all you want to do then go for it. You should study hard, rock Step II >240, honor all of the ortho rotations in your 4th year, try to get solid letters, and the most important thing is to be smart about picking where to rotate. I would not rotate with the big name academic programs because you would have no shot of getting in or you can spend a month there then not get invited for an interview. I would pick a smaller community program that favor rotators and work your ass off during that month so that the residents can push for you. On the flip side, these smaller community program still get 100+ apps per spot, so there is still plenty of people with over 240s applying and interviewing with them. But i think that is your best shot. If you don't match, sit out 2 years and pick a research fellowship, like the ones posted on orthogate.com with Upenn or some other programs, then reapply again. These larger places will hopefully get you some pubs, but you need to do 2 years to be productive and then reapply. Bottomline is that if you do all of the above, you may still never match in ortho, but it is not impossible. I personally know of people that got into ortho with 180-190s on step I.
Good Luck
If you want some advice on specific programs, IM me, I wont list them here.

 

[pagemmapants]

Most people who apply to orthopedics have a minimum of 230s and numbers go as high as 260s.

That's funny.... How come if these people have a "minimum" of 230s the Mean step I for *MATCHED* applicants is a 234?

😕

For 2007 match statistics:
The person who told you 2/11 in your specific range was correct.
About one third of people with 191-200 matched successfully.
Over half of people who applied with 201-210 matched successfully.
However, even one dude with >250 didn't match successfully.

Is Step I a factor? Of course. Are you fighting an uphill battle with your score? Absolutely. Is it unlikely you will match? Yes. Is it impossible? No.

For those of you with 210s and 220s, should your step I score be enough to make you give up applying in ortho? HELL no.

 

[Herman Bloom]

"I just want to fit in" P.B.

I'd offer advice but, "no can do, got a 7:30 res and Dorsia. Great sea urchin ceviche." P.A.

 

[veenut]

That's funny.... How come if these people have a "minimum" of 230s the Mean step I for *MATCHED* applicants is a 234?

😕

For 2007 match statistics:
The person who told you 2/11 in your specific range was correct.
About one third of people with 191-200 matched successfully.
Over half of people who applied with 201-210 matched successfully.
However, even one dude with >250 didn't match successfully.

Is Step I a factor? Of course. Are you fighting an uphill battle with your score? Absolutely. Is it unlikely you will match? Yes. Is it impossible? No.

For those of you with 210s and 220s, should your step I score be enough to make you give up applying in ortho? HELL no.

These numbers are always getting thrown around, and everyone seems to miss the fact that the data is for applicants who got at least 1 interview, so the data for those with board scores < 220 is skewed towards those applicants who had other distinguishing features that garnered them some interviews.

I'd be pretty surprised if 1/2 of those applicants with a 201-210 actually matched successfully

 

[Blesbok]

Talking about interests... I fell in love with Orthopedic Surgery during my 2 week elective. The OR cases, the emergencies, the machinery, the cement, the sheer physicality involved in doing the cases were all a lot of fun and I sort of felt guilty about not loving general surgery as much. Now that I was fortunate to get into a prelim surgery year, what should I do to focus on getting an Ortho postion during my prelim year.

A few things that you all are discussing that applies or doesn't apply to me is that my step 1 is decent however, my step 2 is horrible. Secondly, "fitting in wise" I rotated with big attendings ... and also big ladies(mostly PA's) mostly everyone over 6 ft tall. I am a few inches shy of 6 ft and in no way bulky, more of a runner.

What should my focus be... research... bulking up (joking)... talking to ortho directors...

thanks

Finding the most inconspicuous lifts you can possibly find. I hear the ones with fish in the heals are pretty in style these days.

j/k. Making friends with the people that will sit when deciding on the match list is always going to be a huge influence.

 

[VincentAdultman]

These numbers are always getting thrown around, and everyone seems to miss the fact that the data is for applicants who got at least 1 interview, so the data for those with board scores < 220 is skewed towards those applicants who had other distinguishing features that garnered them some interviews.

I'd be pretty surprised if 1/2 of those applicants with a 201-210 actually matched successfully

Do you know how hard it is for a U.S. medical senior to NOT get a single interview?