Should med students be allowed to carry guns on campus?

[drcrispmd]

I know of surgeons that have their conceal and carry license and have a gun on them at all times. Even when operating. No one knows they are carrying because it is concealed. Thankfully they said they have never had to remove it from its holster in the hospital but will if needed. The hospital that this surgeon operates at does not allow weapons. Those who do carry concealed usually do not announce they are carrying. It is called concealed for a reason. Probably a lot more physicians carry without anyone knowing.


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[21Rush12]

Maybe I'm late to this, but I feel obligated to comment about the "psychological threat" that an earlier poster mentioned regarding guns and concealed carry in the student environment.

As a CCW, the reason for concealed carry is that no one but the person carrying the gun should know that it's there. Its purpose is to allow people the right to maintain the ability to defend themselves, nothing more nor less. The idea that allowing concealed carry to extend to places like a campus or hospital would bring intimidation seems very unlikely when you consider that the firearm by law must remain concealed at all times. Put more concisely, if you're carrying concealed and other people can tell, you are doing it wrong and in many states you are in direct violation of the laws governing concealed carry.

The side I feel is largely neglected here is that truly concealed carry by people who choose to do so has no effect on anyone else, period. I recognize that many people, especially students and academics, do not wish to carry guns nor do they support the right of others to do so. However, when it boils down, taking the right to carry from people who choose to do so properly is counter to the open minded and tolerant attitudes so often lauded by these same groups. I respect anyone's right to do as they choose, but I wish more people would really consider what they are asking for when they call for restrictions to the rights of others.




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[Demosthenes1]

In short: no.
In long: hell no.

 

[Lucca]

Maybe I'm late to this, but I feel obligated to comment about the "psychological threat" that an earlier poster mentioned regarding guns and concealed carry in the student environment.

As a CCW, the reason for concealed carry is that no one but the person carrying the gun should know that it's there. Its purpose is to allow people the right to maintain the ability to defend themselves, nothing more nor less. The idea that allowing concealed carry to extend to places like a campus or hospital would bring intimidation seems very unlikely when you consider that the firearm by law must remain concealed at all times. Put more concisely, if you're carrying concealed and other people can tell, you are doing it wrong and in many states you are in direct violation of the laws governing concealed carry.

The side I feel is largely neglected here is that truly concealed carry by people who choose to do so has no effect on anyone else, period. I recognize that many people, especially students and academics, do not wish to carry guns nor do they support the right of others to do so. However, when it boils down, taking the right to carry from people who choose to do so properly is counter to the open minded and tolerant attitudes so often lauded by these same groups. I respect anyone's right to do as they choose, but I wish more people would really consider what they are asking for when they call for restrictions to the rights of others.




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I'd like to comment on the irony of responding to my comment on "psychological threat" by denying the physical threat of concealed weapons.


The psychological threat is psychological precisely because the gun is invisible, but given the law you assume one is there or nearby. Even if the gun nor its owner do not present a real threat to anybody, just the possibility of having guns present makes events involving free and mass assembly more threatening. It's not as if people need another reason to avoid going out and protesting when that is their right and what they should be doing. Same goes for the classroom. Sure, a CCW holder should not reveal their weapon. However, if I DO see it in the classroom or in a public space, what am I supposed to do? Call the cops on someone probably just exercising their protected right to carry a concealed firearm? Ask them, "Hey, you have a license for that right, you aren't going to be killing anyone today?". This is double confusing if you live on an urban campus that is frequented by non-affiliated, non-students all of the time. I would furthermore bet money that the people who would be reported for carrying as a precaution would mostly be minorities and then again mostly
Black. It's just nonsense. When you are a private citizen, it's a different story. On campus, it is just an unnecessary risk that complicates an already delicate security situation and campuses as separate communities in and of themselves deserve to determine for themselves whether or not students and non student visitors are allowed to carry weapons, much in the same way that other public and private entities have a right to deny an individual possession of a firearm.

I'm open minded and tolerant, that doesn't mean I don't believe that everyone has a right to everything all of the time. I believe in the open crucible of ideas, and I don't find the arguments for CCWs or Campus Carry convincing. I'll remind you that the question at hand is a special case of campus carry, since we are specifically talking about medical students in this thread.

 

[Gilakend]

Double post

 

[deleted407021]

I'm thankful out governor vetoed the bill that would make CC legal on all our state's campuses. Campuses full of 19-22 year olds, packing? I could just see the news stories rolling in.

 

[21Rush12]

@Lucca, I do understand what you are saying. I don't think that being a medical student makes a difference as to what rights I should have as a person which is why my response was so broad. I believe that what's missed here is that allowing CCW would not change the fact that someone could be armed on campus or otherwise, only that someone who is legally allowed to carry elsewhere can extend that to the environment in which they work and live. Outlawing carry on campus, especially those which house their adult students, strips those people of their right to defend themselves as a requirement to participate in education. I know we will likely never agree, nor will I change anyone's mind, but I wanted to express to anyone reading that there are plenty of reasonable people out there who don't agree with the popular stance on this.


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[Lawpy]

@Lucca @21Rush12 @bc65

I'm stuck in a following dilemma, which could be due to my misreading of statistics and/or the statistical reports are biased

Do concealed weapons reduce and prevent gun violence? Or do they increase the rate of accidental violence? Or are these outcomes not exclusive and there's something else going on?

Likewise, do gun restrictions raise or lower violence?

 

[Lucca]

@Lucca @21Rush12 @bc65

I'm stuck in a following dilemma, which could be due to my misreading of statistics and/or the statistical reports are biased

Do concealed weapons reduce and prevent gun violence? Or do they increase the rate of accidental violence? Or are these outcomes not exclusive and there's something else going on?

Likewise, do gun restrictions raise or lower violence?

We don't know. The numbers that you can pull out point to no correlation between CCW legislation and increased violent crime. Notably, suicide is not typically included in measures of violent crime and as a psychiatrist in this thread mentioned, I think it is pretty clear that gun ownership and the availability of guns correlates with increased suicide rates. The converse is also true.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/magazine/guns-and-suicide/

The data on at least that is fairly clear.

There is a clear point to make though: you cannot deduce a causal relationship from this data and gun advocates will try to use measures of "violent" crime to deliberately exclude suicides, which are the real threat behind gun ownership and access, murder suicides and murder are far less common. They will also point to the fact that no causal relationship can be drawn to sort of pull a "the jury is still out" argument visavis Climate change denial, etc. - never mind the fact that research on guns legally cannot be seriously conducted in this country, the government literally intervenes to prevent the generation of the knowledge we need to make a clearer conclusion, and never mind the almost ubiquitous absence of evidence that bystanders with weapons (legal, concealed, or neither) are actually preventing a significant amount of crime. Occasionally you get some story about some dude killing a guy for stealing 500$ from a gas station (not a crime punishable by death), or something. Typically they will point to the fact that states with open carry have reduced violent crime but given what I just mentioned about the good-guy-with-a-gun myth and the fact that states WITHOUT open carry have other comorbid factors which most likely contribute to violent crime in a real way, as opposed to the imagined way that open carry is supposed to somehow reduce crime.

Sorry for the sloppy post, wrote it fast from work.

 

[21Rush12]

@Lawper Thank you for bringing some science into this...I think there are enough statistics and correlations to go around as far as support for both sides of this debate. In all honesty I can't offer any off the top of my head, and I am in he middle of packing my apartment.

I have read conflicting data as well, or data showing a correlation between more restrictions and an increase in gun crime. However, most of these do not support any causation and in my opinion seem to speak to the ineffectiveness of legal restrictions on those who already do not wish to abide by the law.

Again, absolutely no ill will here and I appreciate the discussion brought by intelligent people on a subject that is very important to me personally.

Edit: @Lucca well said regarding interpretation of statistics, you beat me to it.

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