should they make DO schools as hard to get in as MD schools?

[asdasd12345]

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from what ive read, if you make a french fry out of gravy you arent viewed as "sound" of a candidate for working at fast food corporations. Seems to me they are would both taste as good. if applicants have the same training, then shouldnt they both wendys and mcdonalds be as hard to get a job with. maybe that would cancel out the rumour that people who use gravy are better than people who use potatoes. your thoughts?

 

[southbelle]

ummm...they select the best candidates they can. I'm sure DO schools ould love to have 3.7/31 averages, but they take what they can get

 

[Amy B]

You make us sound like rejects or something less desirable. I have heard from so many DOs and MDs that after medical school, it will not matter to you or others whether you are a DO or an MD. It really seems to be a pre-med issue.

 

[theDr.]

well,
DO schools also focus on the intangilbes instead of only numbers, which, in my opinion is much more important. If you have two docs w/ the same training and knowledge, then the one who is more caring and concerned with your well being will go that extra mile to assist you, in my opinion. Whereas an introvert w/ a 35 may not be so personal or even as caring -- sad to say.

 

[Fenrezz]

from what ive read, if you graduate with a DO instead of an MD you arent viewed as "sound" of a candidate for residencies and are a little bit looked down upon by some people in the profession. Seems to me they are both the same thing pretty much. if they both have the same training, then shouldnt they both be equally as hard to get into? maybe that would cancel out the rumour that DO doctors are not as good as MD doctors. just a thought.

The same people that would look down on me because of my degree, would look down on me if I were practicing family medicine with an MD degree. Some people feed off the need to justify their superiority over others, whether it be in degrees, salary, perceived intelligence, or the price of their car.

If your choice of a physician to take care of your family is based on what he/she earned in Organic II, more power to you.

 

[southbelle]

You make us sound like rejects or something less desirable. I have heard from so many DOs and MDs that after medical school, it will not matter to you or others whether you are a DO or an MD. It really seems to be a pre-med issue.

It won't matter. Of course for more competitive residencies it's an advantage to be coming from an allopathic school, but for the most part patients couldn't care. I was just addressing the OP's question.

 

[Amy B]

I agree with you.

Some people have gone to DOs for years and never knew they were DOs. I know a few people who only found out their docs were DOs when I brought it up. They didn't know and don't care either.

 

[wamedic]

asdasd12345,

You might want to talk with some MDs and ask them what they think of their DO Colleagues. I think you'll find that they are thought of and treated as equals. Usually the only people who think less of DOs are pre-med students with little real world experience (i.e. twenty-year olds) and minimal knowledge of the medical field (i.e. twenty-year olds who watch E.R.).

DO's not "sound" candidates for residencies? Wow, that's a gross generalization. Every year DOs match into top residency spots (i.e. Highland EM residency, Ventura FP residency, etc.). Your statement is simply false.
Maybe you should get out and talk with some current MDs and DOs for your info.

FYI, DO schools generally accept students with about the same stats as lower tier MD programs (Finch, etc.). I will say that there is great variation among MCAT scores in those stidents accepted into DO programs. I don't view this as a bad thing though (I'll save my anti-standardized test speech for later). Osteopathic medical schools have a reputation for "looking past the numbers" and seeing other qualities that make for an excellent physician. For example, when I interviewed at a certain allopathic school there was a student with a 33 MCAT, 3.8 GPA, and "shadowing" experience (which we all know means standing up against a wall in an ED somewhere, trying not to get in the way). When I interviewd at a certain osteopathic school there was a guy who had a 23 MCAT, 3.5 GPA, and had been an Army ranger, survived cancer, and worked full-time as a paramedic for the last 3 years. Both good candidates right? Will the lack of real experience make the first person a worse doctor? No. Will the second person's low MCAT make him less of a physician? No. You get the point.

If DO schools set higher limits on their entry requirements, then the country stands to lose some great future doctors. Don't get me wrong there have to be minimum standards, but realize that some aspects of a students application (like life experience) are just as important as a standardized test (oh, here I go again). I'll leave it at that for now.

 

[MacGyver]

Its only going to get worse with all the new DO schools you guys are opening.

10 new DO schools in the last 15 years is not a good way to increase your selectivity.

 

[Boomer]

Its only going to get worse with all the new DO schools you guys are opening.

10 new DO schools in the last 15 years is not a good way to increase your selectivity.

You know, for someone who looks down so much on Osteopathic education, you sure do spend A LOT of fuggin time on this board.

 

[PublicHealth]

😴 😴 😴

...another MD vs. DO thread...

 

[maturin]

I wish the selectivity would increase. For some of the schools, the averages are almost embarassing. It makes me wonder just who, if anyone, is getting rejected. Sometimes it seems that all you need to do to get into a DO school is stumble through your classes with B's and C's and show up to the MCAT. Looking back, I think I vastly overestimated the difficulty getting into an osteopathic school.

I know all the crap about looking beyond the numbers, ect. Thats great, and I'm all for diversity age-wise and what not, but I think we all would like physicians who were at the top of their classes. That is really getting old - like everyone out there with a 21 on the MCAT has passed out condoms in Africa. The bottom line is that we NEED to start tightening up the standards for admission. The problem is that there are new schools constanly opening now, which means osteopathic medicine has to reach lower and lower into the applicant pool to fill these slots.

 

[exmike]

asdasd12345,

You might want to talk with some MDs and ask them what they think of their DO Colleagues. I think you'll find that they are thought of and treated as equals. Usually the only people who think less of DOs are pre-med students with little real world experience (i.e. twenty-year olds) and minimal knowledge of the medical field (i.e. twenty-year olds who watch E.R.).

DO's not "sound" candidates for residencies? Wow, that's a gross generalization. Every year DOs match into top residency spots (i.e. Highland EM residency, Ventura FP residency, etc.). Your statement is simply false.
Maybe you should get out and talk with some current MDs and DOs for your info.

FYI, DO schools generally accept students with about the same stats as lower tier MD programs (Finch, etc.). I will say that there is great variation among MCAT scores in those stidents accepted into DO programs. I don't view this as a bad thing though (I'll save my anti-standardized test speech for later). Osteopathic medical schools have a reputation for "looking past the numbers" and seeing other qualities that make for an excellent physician. For example, when I interviewed at a certain allopathic school there was a student with a 33 MCAT, 3.8 GPA, and "shadowing" experience (which we all know means standing up against a wall in an ED somewhere, trying not to get in the way). When I interviewd at a certain osteopathic school there was a guy who had a 23 MCAT, 3.5 GPA, and had been an Army ranger, survived cancer, and worked full-time as a paramedic for the last 3 years. Both good candidates right? Will the lack of real experience make the first person a worse doctor? No. Will the second person's low MCAT make him less of a physician? No. You get the point.

If DO schools set higher limits on their entry requirements, then the country stands to lose some great future doctors. Don't get me wrong there have to be minimum standards, but realize that some aspects of a students application (like life experience) are just as important as a standardized test (oh, here I go again). I'll leave it at that for now.

I dont think you should mislead people into thinking that DO schools are as competitive as the bottom rung Allopathic schools. Thats just not the case. You're using the exception that PROVES the rule. 124 other allopathic schools besides Finch have higher stats, so what gives?

The point here isn't stats right? It's becoming a physician. You needn't defend the selectivity of DO school to establish your competence as a clinican. All of us know that DO's are competent physicians. That is what four years + three years residency is all about. Sure, as a collective group DO's may not be as competitve as their MD counterparts in residency selection, but that doesnt make any difference on their abilities or the ligitimacy of the DO degree. Its the same as a State U allo student not being as competitive as a Harvard U allo student. There is always someone worse off than you and always someone better off than you. You just need to be happy where you are!

 

[HoodyHoo]

My boss referred to DOs as "2nd-class" doctors. But then again my boss is an old timer MD with much shoved up his A**. I think mainly the old timers look down on DOs. Then, again, I bet old timer DOs look down on MDs also.

 

[asdasd12345]

no it isnt an MD vs DO thread. or at least it isnt meant to be. ive been reading things online about the differences in actuality and the percieved differences, and the percieved differences outweigh the actual ones. it doesnt seem like theres anything between them, but because of the lower standards of selectivity for DO schools maybe patients who dont know better and others who are not as informed think DO doctors are not as good as MD's.

For me personally, this is all becoming rhetorical. With the never ending wait for a greencard, poor undergraduate grades, lack of funding to take the prerequisite courses, it seems I have more things to worry about than the slight possibility of having a career as a physician. If only America was a bit kinder to immigrants from "friendly" nations, if only I became a nurse when I first arrived to get the greencard, if only there were an option other than getting married. But its all to easy to talk about if's and but's.

 

[gr8n]

The other day, I was speaking with my good friend who is an endovascular fellow at Northwestern. What he said was interesting to me so I wanted to share it with you guys/women.

Being that I am going into my first year of medical school and I am not sure of which medical route to take for a career, I asked him about the odds of a D.O. getting an endovascular fellowship at a place as well-respected as Northwestern. He replied:

"Well, it is definitely true that D.O.s will have the same opportunities as M.D.s to get certain residencies and fellowships. However, when it comes to attaining a residency or fellowship at a place like Northwestern, Wash., Harvard, Johns Hopkins, etc., a D.O. will run into severe difficulties. For instance, a great student with high board scores and grades from a D.O. school will be less competitive for those spots than a mere average student with average board scores and grades from an M.D. school. (He has heard administrators talking amongst each other about various applicants) But nevertheless, the possibility is there for a D.O., and you should definitely go after it, unfortunately, your odds aren't very good with a D.O. -- Sorry Buddy."

Does anyone out there know an osteopathic physician who has been offered opportunities at good residencies or fellowships in any surgical specialty (ie. vascular, endovascular, neurological, cardiac, etc.)

I also asked him about the prejudices against D.O.s and us future D.O.s and he said:

"Of course there is a stigma against D.O.s. Some patients won't go to you and some M.D.s won't refer patients to you because you are a D.O. and not an M.D. BUT!!! Some patients won't come to me because I'm not Indian, or perhaps because I'm not white, or maybe even perhaps because I won't have a nice, state-of-the-art office. Also, another D.O. MIGHT refer patients to you because you ARE a D.O. It works both ways, you see. As for the M.D. vs. D.O. argument, who cares. You can count on one thing; there will always be one M.D. who doesn't like or wish to respect you because of your degree and not your person, but he'll ultimately have to respect you--you'll both be on the same team. Its not just D.O.s who are not respected by M.D.s, you know? I know quite a few of the students I went to school with who went into emergency medicine... and they aren't really respected by some M.D.s that I know... AND THEY EVEN HAVE M.D.s! All I'm saying is, go for what you want and screw everyone who doesn't agree with you or 'respect' you for your decision. Prejudice will be against you, but what makes a good doctor is what's within you, not what's after your name."

He is a cool guy and made me see that prejudice isn't only agains D.O.s, its agains M.D.s also, especially primary care M.D.s. Its all about the ego, I suppose... but even more so, ITS ALL ABOUT THE PATIENTS!

M.D.s and future M.D.s out there, I can't wait to work with you and I hope you feel the same.

Does anyone have any feedback?

gr8n
LECOM-Bradenton
c/o 2008

 

[DocRadak]

gr8n:

Great post!!! Finally something worthwhile in this endless battle.

It is going to be more difficult for us, but I feel that'll make us stronger as people and as physicians. I have a very good friend that is in a great M.D. program, and he has told me many of the same things you have posted. He isn't an "M.D.'s are better than D.O.'s" type of person either and has always had my back and supported my decisions. You've got a good friend there, and let us know of anything else he has to say that helps.

See you in Bradenton in the fall.

 

[kristabel]

That was an excellent post, gr8n! It sounds like both you and your friend at Northwestern have the open-minded approach to medicine that's going to lead to the best possible care for patients.

Like HoodyHoo, the chair in the department where I did my graduate work (who wrote an LOR for me) said he couldn't believe I was applying to DO programs and that he thought all DO's were "witch doctors." Mind you, his elderly mother refuses to see any doctor other than the DO she has been seeing for years. After a rather heated argument about the "witch doctor" statement, he conceded that he would come to see me as a patient "even if" I were to become a DO. I told him that he would be coming to see me under very special circumstances, as I intend to be an OB/GYN 😉

 

[PublicHealth]

Does anyone out there know an osteopathic physician who has been offered opportunities at good residencies or fellowships in any surgical specialty (ie. vascular, endovascular, neurological, cardiac, etc.)

Here are some DO surgeons who trained at respected places. There are many others. Just do a google search.

http://cobweb.dartmouth.edu/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/~dms/facultydb/profile_read.pl?uid=220#

http://www.nahealth.com/phys_direct_fmc/fmc_orthopaedic.htm (second one down)

Keep in mind that the mission of osteopathic medicine is to produce primary care physicians first, and specialists second. For this reason, DOs are not accepted in droves into surgical subspecialties. Stigma associated with osteopathic medicine is another reason. For DOs looking to specialize, PM&R seems to mesh especially well with osteopathic training, with many DOs training at highly regarded places like Columbia, Kessler, JFK, and NYU. The biopsychosocial and biomechanical orientation of DOs also lends itself well to specialty fields such as neurology, rheumatology, and psychiatry.

 

[wamedic]

exmike,

I don't think I'm misleading anyone into thinking osteopathic schools are as "competitive" as allopathic schools. The fact is that some low teir allo schools have similar stats as top osteo schools, that's all. Of course I would argue that allo and osteo schools look at applications from slightly different angles and so we might have to define what a "competitive" applicant is.

Do agree that osteo schools need to slow down their growth.

gr8n,

Nicely put

 

[nate2973]

All I can say is the allopaths that I went to were all a-holes. They take one quick look at you, write a script and say have a nice day. No personality at all. On the other hand, the osteopaths that I have been to have always been completely thorough on their examinations, asked questions about my illness, took the time to answer my questions and made me feel like I was a person instead of a sickness. I bet you all can guess what route I want to go. It is just really sad that in these days of advanced medicine, the M.D.-vs-D.O. debate is still alive.

 

[asdasd12345]

i went to a DO once. the doctor was fine, although neither he or anybody else actually cured what was wrong with me. the one thing that appalled me about this particular DO i went to was the waiting time. i had an appointment at noon and wasnt seen till 2:45. i asked next time if they could recommend a time when i wouldnt have to wait as long, and they assured me it would be different. however next time i waited even longer. they can sue me for the $5 i owe them.

 

[gr8n]

Here are some DO surgeons who trained at respected places. There are many others. Just do a google search.

http://cobweb.dartmouth.edu/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/~dms/facultydb/profile_read.pl?uid=220#

http://www.nahealth.com/phys_direct_fmc/fmc_orthopaedic.htm (second one down)

Keep in mind that the mission of osteopathic medicine is to produce primary care physicians first, and specialists second. For this reason, DOs are not accepted in droves into surgical subspecialties. Stigma associated with osteopathic medicine is another reason. For DOs looking to specialize, PM&R seems to mesh especially well with osteopathic training, with many DOs training at highly regarded places like Columbia, Kessler, JFK, and NYU. The biopsychosocial and biomechanical orientation of DOs also lends itself well to specialty fields such as neurology, rheumatology, and psychiatry.

PublicHealth,
Thanks for the insight! (the websites were cool)
everyone else, too 🙂

 

[DireWolf]

I wish the selectivity would increase. For some of the schools, the averages are almost embarassing. It makes me wonder just who, if anyone, is getting rejected. Sometimes it seems that all you need to do to get into a DO school is stumble through your classes with B's and C's and show up to the MCAT. Looking back, I think I vastly overestimated the difficulty getting into an osteopathic school.

I know all the crap about looking beyond the numbers, ect. Thats great, and I'm all for diversity age-wise and what not, but I think we all would like physicians who were at the top of their classes. That is really getting old - like everyone out there with a 21 on the MCAT has passed out condoms in Africa. The bottom line is that we NEED to start tightening up the standards for admission. The problem is that there are new schools constanly opening now, which means osteopathic medicine has to reach lower and lower into the applicant pool to fill these slots.

Some very good points. I've made points similar to this and gotten pooped on, so be prepared.

Standards do need to be elevated. Unfortunately with so many DO schools opening up, the adcoms do not have the luxury of accepting a lot of 3.7/30+ applicants right now. There's just not a lot of them applying to DO schools right now. In order to fill classes, adcoms will take what they can get.

All that being said, I am glad that DO schools look beyond numbers in some situations. I'm probably in the upper part of my class in regards to MCAT scores, but most of my classmates are wicked smart and MANY are doing better than myself. I'm sure a good number of my classmates with lower MCAT scores will smoke me on the boards. There are going to be a lot of great docs coming out of my class.

Good discussion so far. Both sides are bringing up great points.

edit: I'd love to hear DrMom's opinions. It's always good when she mixes it up a little in a discussion. 😀

and it might serve as a distraction from pharm

 

[DrMom]

edit: I'd love to hear DrMom's opinions. It's always good when she mixes it up a little in a discussion. 😀

and it might serve as a distraction from pharm

But pharm is scaring me right now 😱


Actually, I basically would post what you did...really 🙂

 

[docslytherin]

if you want to talk about selectivity, you should also talk about volume. the last numbers that i saw (someone please correct me if i'm wrong) were that about 1 in 3 applicants gets into an allopathic school and closer to 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 gets into an osteopathic school. so while the mcat numbers are lower on the average (i don't think you can argue this point), the competition is a lot more fierce. it's much harder to differentiate yourself from 3500 applicants trying to get a 150 spots at an osteopathic school (that's what my school, kcom, had last year) than it is if you want to be in the 125 from a pool of 1400 for an allopathic school (numbers from my state allopathic school).

it's all in how you look at it.

and i promise you that regardless of your degree, someone somewhere along the way is going to not go to you for some reason... i've not heard of a single md or do having to close the doors for lack of patients... there's a shortage of physicians. if i'm sick i'm going to whomever i can find that can help me... (though my preference is obviously a do!! 🙂 )

 

[DireWolf]

if you want to talk about selectivity, you should also talk about volume. the last numbers that i saw (someone please correct me if i'm wrong) were that about 1 in 3 applicants gets into an allopathic school and closer to 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 gets into an osteopathic school. so while the mcat numbers are lower on the average (i don't think you can argue this point), the competition is a lot more fierce. it's much harder to differentiate yourself from 3500 applicants trying to get a 150 spots at an osteopathic school (that's what my school, kcom, had last year) than it is if you want to be in the 125 from a pool of 1400 for an allopathic school (numbers from my state allopathic school).

Your numbers are fairly accurate.

There are ~3100 acceptances (total spots) given to ~6800 applicants at osteopathic medical schools. So that's about a 46% acceptance rate.

There are ~17,500 acceptances (total spots) given to ~35,000 applicants at allopathic medical schools. So that's about a 50% acceptance rate.

Keep in mind though that the average GPA and MCAT for D.O. applicants (not acceptees) is 3.37/23.6, and the average GPA and MCAT for M.D. applicants (not acceptees) is 3.47/27.1

Good post docslytherin.

 

[gr8n]

if i'm sick i'm going to whomever i can find that can help me... (though my preference is obviously a do!! 🙂 )

Damn skippy!!!!! 😀

 

[sportsmedicjim]

I look forward to working with D.O.'s...after shadowing D.O.'s and interviewing at osteopathic schools I have a better understanding of those who chose the osteopathic profession.

I just wish the tuition wasn't so steep.

Anyway, D.O.'s are cool in my book! 🙂

Sincerely,

Jim
MUSC
Class of 2008

 

[LIDO]

Your numbers are fairly accurate.

There are ~3100 acceptances (total spots) given to ~6800 applicants at osteopathic medical schools. So that's about a 46% acceptance rate.

There are ~17,500 acceptances (total spots) given to ~35,000 applicants at allopathic medical schools. So that's about a 50% acceptance rate.

Keep in mind though that the average GPA and MCAT for D.O. applicants (not acceptees) is 3.37/23.6, and the average GPA and MCAT for M.D. applicants (not acceptees) is 3.47/27.1

Good post docslytherin.

Very interesting numbers...thanks 😉

 

[NDESTRUKT]

DO's make some of the most fun weekend warriors! My DO friends are great.

 

[exmike]

if you want to talk about selectivity, you should also talk about volume. the last numbers that i saw (someone please correct me if i'm wrong) were that about 1 in 3 applicants gets into an allopathic school and closer to 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 gets into an osteopathic school. so while the mcat numbers are lower on the average (i don't think you can argue this point), the competition is a lot more fierce. it's much harder to differentiate yourself from 3500 applicants trying to get a 150 spots at an osteopathic school (that's what my school, kcom, had last year) than it is if you want to be in the 125 from a pool of 1400 for an allopathic school (numbers from my state allopathic school).

it's all in how you look at it.

and i promise you that regardless of your degree, someone somewhere along the way is going to not go to you for some reason... i've not heard of a single md or do having to close the doors for lack of patients... there's a shortage of physicians. if i'm sick i'm going to whomever i can find that can help me... (though my preference is obviously a do!! 🙂 )

volumes is misleading. Going by volumes it is easier to get into bu medical school than harvard or hopkins. Its called self selectivity.

 

[docslytherin]

volumes is misleading. Going by volumes it is easier to get into bu medical school than harvard or hopkins. Its called self selectivity.

i guess i don't understand self-selectivity. are you saying that the schools are being selective or the students are choosing not to apply because they don't feel that they "have what it takes"?

all i'm saying is that it's difficult to compete against that many people. i just wanted to bring it up as a reason that DO schools are NOT "easy" to get into by any stretch of the imagination.

i get sick of people thinking that DO schools are security schools and that it's easy to get in. (not that you said that, just a pet peeve of mine)

 

[Gleevec]

i guess i don't understand self-selectivity. are you saying that the schools are being selective or the students are choosing not to apply because they don't feel that they "have what it takes"?

all i'm saying is that it's difficult to compete against that many people. i just wanted to bring it up as a reason that DO schools are NOT "easy" to get into by any stretch of the imagination.

i get sick of people thinking that DO schools are security schools and that it's easy to get in. (not that you said that, just a pet peeve of mine)

I think what exmike is saying is that a majority of top applicants (not all) apply MD only, thus they are self-selecting themselves out of the DO pool.

 

[Amy B]

Self-selectivity....I like that term to describe what happens. 👍

 

[DOSouthpaw]

I believe this is probably the wrong way to go. I truely believe that our admission standard should drastically change, but the answer isn't to mimik the MD model. I think that our admissions should reflect Osteopathy, because we are Osteopaths, not Medical doctors. Sure we learn medicine, just as good as Medical doctors, but our primary focus should be on Osteopathy; medicine is a last resort and should only be used when we fail to address the patient's innate healing ability or when the patient's ability is totally overwhelmed.

That being said, we should select candidates that have high tactitle skill, good interpersonal skills, should nutrition be a prereq??, a good understanding of sociology and religion, one who wants to move the profession forward by helping with good Osteopathic research, and have a true desire to serve.

Every profession also has its own enterance exam...except for DO schools, we use the MD exam. I think we ought to have our own, the OCAT, where the format would be just the same as the MCAT but also incorporate the mental gymnastics (manipulation of objects) that the DMAT incorporates into their exam. Heck we could just use the MCAT and add the other section to it. This way we could guage the applicants spacial skills that makes an Osteopath unique.

Grade #s are important because candidates should be able to handle the load of basic science classes, but I think the # game should stop. Select a group of individuals that meet a minimum criteria grade wise, and then interview to find the best future Osteopaths.

 

[(nicedream)]

I believe this is probably the wrong way to go. I truely believe that our admission standard should drastically change, but the answer isn't to mimik the MD model. I think that our admissions should reflect Osteopathy, because we are Osteopaths, not Medical doctors. Sure we learn medicine, just as good as Medical doctors, but our primary focus should be on Osteopathy; medicine is a last resort and should only be used when we fail to address the patient's innate healing ability or when the patient's ability is totally overwhelmed.

That being said, we should select candidates that have high tactitle skill, good interpersonal skills, should nutrition be a prereq??, a good understanding of sociology and religion, one who wants to move the profession forward by helping with good Osteopathic research, and have a true desire to serve.

Every profession also has its own enterance exam...except for DO schools, we use the MD exam. I think we ought to have our own, the OCAT, where the format would be just the same as the MCAT but also incorporate the mental gymnastics (manipulation of objects) that the DMAT incorporates into their exam. Heck we could just use the MCAT and add the other section to it. This way we could guage the applicants spacial skills that makes an Osteopath unique.

Grade #s are important because candidates should be able to handle the load of basic science classes, but I think the # game should stop. Select a group of individuals that meet a minimum criteria grade wise, and then interview to find the best future Osteopaths.

I think if this occurred you would see a drastic decrease in applications, and osteopathy would be viewed as an allied health field.

 

[DocWagner]

I believe this is probably the wrong way to go. I truely believe that our admission standard should drastically change, but the answer isn't to mimik the MD model. I think that our admissions should reflect Osteopathy, because we are Osteopaths, not Medical doctors. Sure we learn medicine, just as good as Medical doctors, but our primary focus should be on Osteopathy; medicine is a last resort and should only be used when we fail to address the patient's innate healing ability or when the patient's ability is totally overwhelmed.

That being said, we should select candidates that have high tactitle skill, good interpersonal skills, should nutrition be a prereq??, a good understanding of sociology and religion, one who wants to move the profession forward by helping with good Osteopathic research, and have a true desire to serve.

Every profession also has its own enterance exam...except for DO schools, we use the MD exam. I think we ought to have our own, the OCAT, where the format would be just the same as the MCAT but also incorporate the mental gymnastics (manipulation of objects) that the DMAT incorporates into their exam. Heck we could just use the MCAT and add the other section to it. This way we could guage the applicants spacial skills that makes an Osteopath unique.

Grade #s are important because candidates should be able to handle the load of basic science classes, but I think the # game should stop. Select a group of individuals that meet a minimum criteria grade wise, and then interview to find the best future Osteopaths.

Well I really think you are in the minority regarding this view, furthermore, the term "Osteopath" is a bit antiquated don't you think? My degree says "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine".
Anyway, who can predict who will be a good physician? Who can predict who will be the best "manipulator"? The MCAT is used to judge minimum standards not to judge who "be the best". Schools want students that will not fail (and obviously loose tuition money) and therefore pay more attention to the valleys than the peaks. The high MCAT's are only a point of pride and arrogance.
The interview process is the time when Osteopathic principles should shine...not in the multiple choice test.

 

[NDESTRUKT]

All I can say is the allopaths that I went to were all a-holes. They take one quick look at you, write a script and say have a nice day. No personality at all. On the other hand, the osteopaths that I have been to have always been completely thorough on their examinations, asked questions about my illness, took the time to answer my questions and made me feel like I was a person instead of a sickness. I bet you all can guess what route I want to go. It is just really sad that in these days of advanced medicine, the M.D.-vs-D.O. debate is still alive.

All I can say is that comments like this are about as unfounded as racist comments. Not all MD's are a-holes. Not all DO's are caring. A doctor is a doctor. I am very supportive of the DO system but I am also very supportive of the MD system. I wouldn't stereotype any sort of degree with personality. If you're an A-hole, you're going to be an a-hole whether or not you went to an MD school or a DO school. The school didn't teach you to be nice or be a jerk, your own personality did.

Please refrain from such comments in the future.

 

[Gleevec]

All I can say is that comments like this are about as unfounded as racist comments. Not all MD's are a-holes. Not all DO's are caring. A doctor is a doctor. I am very supportive of the DO system but I am also very supportive of the MD system. I wouldn't stereotype any sort of degree with personality. If you're an A-hole, you're going to be an a-hole whether or not you went to an MD school or a DO school. The school didn't teach you to be nice or be a jerk, your own personality did.

Please refrain from such comments in the future.

Agreed, furthermore one wonders how nate2973 comes to his conclusion that "It is just really sad that in these days of advanced medicine, the M.D.-vs-D.O. debate is still alive." in light of the direct insult to MD medicine "ll I can say is the allopaths that I went to were all a-holes. They take one quick look at you, write a script and say have a nice day. No personality at all. On the other hand, the osteopaths that I have been to have always been completely thorough on their examinations, asked questions about my illness, took the time to answer my questions and made me feel like I was a person instead of a sickness. I bet you all can guess what route I want to go."

Seriously, it is these kinds of asinine generalizations of a group, whether it be MD or DO, that fragment medicine. It is really unwarranted. While right now I most definitely could see myself working with just about anyway, if I consistently heard from a DO that I (and my MD colleagues) had no personality, were gunners, dont care about patients, etc, I would rapidly distance myself from working with any DOs.

 

[Chrisobean]

exactly, but personal experience will always shape your opinion, duh. i refuse to go to a male GYN b/c of one bad visit. the doctor was a jerk. i realize that not all male GYNs are jerks, but i still will only see a woman. i can see nate's point, but you cant classify ALL md's like that, although you can choose not to see them.

one thing that does bother me about this debate, sometimes the only good things people have to say about DOs is that they are nicer. doesnt say much for their competency in medicine.

but i have a question - DO schools may have lower admission requirements, but they are still pumping out doctors. these people with the "below average" stats are still passing the boards and graduating, and at this point no one gives a rats ass about their MCAT score. so this whole debate almost seems pointless to me.

 

[sia_simba]

If I may, medicine is an art. It is nothing more than "hands on experience", whether you are watching radiographs or doing surgery. The longer you practice medicine, the better you get at it. In that essence, I personally feel that anyone who graduates from a DO school is capable of doing anything an MD student can do. You can sit both a DO and MD student in front of some computer pieces and ask them to put it together. They'll have NO clue what to do if they arent exposed to it. Same with medicine, both are competent w/ what they're suppose to do and incompetent w/ things they are not familar with. I hope that stops whatever argument stating MDs are better than DOs because they have higher requirements for med school. An MD student/doctor might not even know how a car actually runs, while a 42 yr old man, w/ no prior education can take apart and put together any car you give him. Those that do think they are better because they are a surgeons, or because they're an MD... they must have been picked on in their early years to have this type of complex. What we can rest assure is that there will always be someone smarter than those cocky people who is actually smart enough to NOT look down on people due to status, degree, race, religion, money, etc.

If anyone actually has the BARON's reviews on medical schools, they will find that there are more than a few dozen MD schools whose requirements are extremely low. One reason why other people can take part in their school is because they only accept state residents.

What someone mentioned about PM&R is right. There will be certain residency that would like to have DOs. For example, NYCOMs class of 2004, there were 3 match for PM&R at harvard w/ a total of 12 going into that field.

If anyone knows NYC well, they will know that St. Barnabas in bronx is level 1 trauma center. Most of the ER physicians are DOs. What does that tell you ?

Just so people would be familar, USMLE part 1, MDs do beter than DOs due to their style of teaching. USMLE part 2 and part 3... DOs and MDs do exactly the same. What does this tell you ? DOs are just as competent as MDs in practicing medicine. Therefore, it makes the cocky MDs mad so they have to find something else to look down upon about DOs, it is a cheap shot, but those MDs whose been picked on when they were little or have some type of macho complex will take it. What kind of man/woman are they ? NOTHING BUT COWARDS WHO HIDE BEHIND 2 LETTERS.

Its like a woman taking a high executive position in a big firm, the males would look down upon her... NOT because she is incompetent, but because she is a woman. Prejudice exist in all shape and form, and by all means, the field of medicine is not immune to it.

MDs and DOs would never be seem as equal, I will forever be a thorn in their view of a world w/ perfect traditional physicians, but you know what though ? I'm proud to have the opportunity to be a DO.

DO = MD + OMT

For those MDs, MDs to be or anyone that don't like DOs... I would like to see how you can disprove the formula above.

 

[sia_simba]

Concerning school requirements and numbers opening up:

1. It is good that we are opening more schools, it means we are making enough $$ as DOs to open schools, it means our popularity is growing because more and more people will become aware of DOs, our credibility will outlive our reputation in no time. It means more students will have the opportunity to become DOs.

2. Our standards have not dropped and if anything, it has risen. It is harder and harder to get into DO schools. I have seen people who have high gpa and mcats and get rejected by DO schools. I have seen people who said they got interview at this allopathic school, that allopathic school and gotten rejected by a DO school. What does that tell you ?

3. I personally know someone who gave up an MD school for a DO school. I personally rejected an MD school to go to a DO school.

4. "They" don't need to make it harder to get into DO schools because eventually, it'll just lead up to that. In the older days, people can become doctors just by paying $$. How good are those doctors? For those that don't know, in the flu pandemic of 1918, 20million people die. MDs weren't able to help people because they didnt know crap about muscularskeletal system... people under DO supervision suffer MINIMAL.

 

[exmike]

Just so people would be familar, USMLE part 1, MDs do beter than DOs due to their style of teaching. USMLE part 2 and part 3... DOs and MDs do exactly the same. What does this tell you ? DOs are just as competent as MDs in practicing medicine. Therefore, it makes the cocky MDs mad so they have to find something else to look down upon about DOs, it is a cheap shot, but those MDs whose been picked on when they were little or have some type of macho complex will take it. What kind of man/woman are they ? NOTHING BUT COWARDS WHO HIDE BEHIND 2 LETTERS.

I'm not trying to fan the flames here, but only about 300 DO's take the Step 2's each year. Since you have to pass Step 1 to take Step 2, only DO's on equal academic footing with the MD's that pass Step 1 can pass Step 2, so your theory doesn't hold water. The Step 2 DO population is basically self selected.

This isnt to say DO's aren't capable, they are. I'm just qualifying your statement.

 

[bokermmk]

asdasd12345,


FYI, DO schools generally accept students with about the same stats as lower tier MD programs (Finch, etc.). QUOTE]

No way. Your facts are simpy wrong. Finch has a 28-29 average depending on the year which, although low is higher than the highest DO schools. I am not saying this is a good or bad thing. But get your facts straight.

 

[sia_simba]

Where are you getting your stats from ? w/ the % of grades and mcats? In the BARONS med school review which you can purchase for 40 dollars at any Barnes & noble store, you can easily pull out a handfull of MD schools whose requirements are very low. 3.0 gpa, 25mcat, etc. Don't believe me ?? Go check it out yourself.

If anyone has any question about the credibility of my source, we all know that BARON is a respectable brand. ESp people who live in NY and are required to take regents.

You don't need to take USMLE part 1 to take part 2. Thats what a 2nd yr anesthesiology resident told me. So either I was given the wrong information, deaf in one ear, or I'm right. So could someone please clear up on this ?

 

[asdasd12345]

asdasd12345,


FYI, DO schools generally accept students with about the same stats as lower tier MD programs (Finch, etc.). QUOTE]

No way. Your facts are simpy wrong. Finch has a 28-29 average depending on the year which, although low is higher than the highest DO schools. I am not saying this is a good or bad thing. But get your facts straight.

stick it buddy, i dont claim to be factual, and i never wrote what you were trying to put in quotations. maybe before you tell me to get my facts straight you should actually try quoting the correct person.

 

[DireWolf]

Where are you getting your stats from ? w/ the % of grades and mcats? In the BARONS med school review which you can purchase for 40 dollars at any Barnes & noble store, you can easily pull out a handfull of MD schools whose requirements are very low. 3.0 gpa, 25mcat, etc. Don't believe me ?? Go check it out yourself.

If anyone has any question about the credibility of my source, we all know that BARON is a respectable brand. ESp people who live in NY and are required to take regents.

You are confusing minimum requirements with requirements needed to be accepted. Most schools have a minimum GPA and MCAT cutoff. If you are below the cutoff, they will not even send you a secondary application. The applicants who actually get accepted will have higher GPA and MCATs than the minimum requirements.

For example:

While Finch's minimum GPA requirement is 3.0, the average GPA for those accepted is ~3.5

And while their minimum MCAT requirement is 25, the average MCAT for those accepted is 28-29.

My friend recently got accepted to Finch's class of 2008.

 

[AngelBear]

I wish the selectivity would increase. For some of the schools, the averages are almost embarassing. It makes me wonder just who, if anyone, is getting rejected. Sometimes it seems that all you need to do to get into a DO school is stumble through your classes with B's and C's and show up to the MCAT. Looking back, I think I vastly overestimated the difficulty getting into an osteopathic school.

I know all the crap about looking beyond the numbers, ect. Thats great, and I'm all for diversity age-wise and what not, but I think we all would like physicians who were at the top of their classes. That is really getting old - like everyone out there with a 21 on the MCAT has passed out condoms in Africa. The bottom line is that we NEED to start tightening up the standards for admission. The problem is that there are new schools constanly opening now, which means osteopathic medicine has to reach lower and lower into the applicant pool to fill these slots.

I just wanted to know what makes you think that the MCAT is an accurate measurement of how good of a physician you will be. I know many people that did really bad on the MCAT but kicked ass on the boards. Which I believe is more important because it is relevant to the occupation.

 

[VALSALVA]

ummm...they select the best candidates they can. I'm sure DO schools ould love to have 3.7/31 averages, but they take what they can get

This is a common mis-understanding. And, I partly agree with you. I take issue with the AOA on this one. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that D.O. schools accept students with significantly lower MCAT and/or GPA scores rather than students with better numbers. So, to say that DO schools would love to have 3.7/31 averages is half true...DO schools also want students to be well rounded and experienced. Of course, most pre-meds wouldn't dare to apply to ANY school without research, clinical experience and solid grades in a diverse mix of classes. This is why I don't understand why my school's admissions committee would feel compelled to accept someone who managed a 20 on the MCAT. Sure, he's a "nice guy" but they couldn't find another "nice guy" in the pool of 3,000+ applicants who managed to do a little better on the test? Who knows.