Should we allow IMGs, get into residencies

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Also, I think it is wrong for Dermlover to compare PhD with MD degree since they require different skills and attributes. PhD just requires that you be good at science and can produce scientific results. For medicine, being able to communicate well with your patients is critical. Here in the US most patients expect a very collaborative relationship with their physician, and will ask a lot of questions and want to discuss a lot of things with you (the physician). Therefore, it is important that a physician be able to speak and write English very, very well and it's very helpful to understand the social and cultural background of one's patients. I just think this is very hard for many IMG's (the ones who are not US citizens, and/or haven't spent large amounts of time in the US). It would be very hard for me to communicate with patients if I was just "off the boat" from the US to some other country as well. It just takes time to habituate to a new place, and there are so many subtle cultural cues, etc. that I just think it's hard for many IMG's to pick up on. I have friends who are IMG's and I don't blame them for this - how can they help it? It does affect patients though. I have had many patients complain to me about "foreign doctors" and not being able to understand them. It's worse with the patients who don't have a high educational level and have trouble communicating with us docs in the first place because it's hard for them to explain what is wrong, and hard for them to understand our instructions to them.

Also, as pointed out by someone above, I agree that I have encountered both stellar IMG's and ones who were really bad clinically. And some of the ones who are bad clinically did have high test scores. The USMLE just isn't that hard of a test, and one can easily study for it. Getting a high score probably tells you something about someone's IQ, I would hazard to guess, but it doesn't necessarily translate to clinical competence. It's just very hard for US program directors to evaluate what the clinical competence of any particular IMG is going to be, particularly if that person doesn't have clinical experience working in the US. That's not racism - it's just a fact.

I do agree that medcine is not a scientific area anymore, but it is more like a buisiness and I think in long term it hurts both patients and medicine, itself. and just like any other componies, you can be the CEO if you are son of the major shareholder. US citizen IMGs are the main group of IMGs and they don't have any communication problems but only 50% of them have been matched last year, only half of them?????
USMLE is not an IQ test, it is insult to those who cann't pass this test and get lower scores. 50% of IMG cann't pass it and many AMGs get low score in these tests.
If the ability to communicate with patients is on of the accepting factors in residency we MUST see a lot of hispanic residents in southern states in highly competitive fields, something that you cann't see
 
I'm late to the game here. Many good points have been made already.

First, let's not confuse racial / ethnic discrimination with IMG selection issues. It's clearly against the law for me to treat two US grads, or two otherwise identical IMG's for that matter, differently based upon their race, national origin, etc. However, it's perfectly acceptable for me to select based upon what medical school you went to, or what clinical experience you have. If I decide, based upon my experience, that graduates of BMS (That's the "Best Medical School") are terrible, I am well within my rights to decide not to interview them, even if their USMLE scores are good. As mentioned above, I often have no idea how good an international medical school is, and hence the importance of US clinical experience.

Another issue not raised previously is about visas. Many IMG's choose to train on an H1b visa, which requires that there not be an equivalently competent US citizen available to do that job. There is no question that this burden is met in FM, IM and some other primary care fields. However, I would have a problem with any foreign citizen getting an H1b visa in Derm, Rads, Anesthesia, etc. There are plenty of qualified US citizens for those positions. Please note that anyone who does not need a visa -- those with green cards, etc -- would be immune to this argument. A discussion of whether the US should offer J visas (training physicians in this country to take that knowledge back to their own country to improve health care there) is a subject for another thread.

Last, a quick comment about exPCM's discussion of the future of IMG's in the US. I agree that as US schools expand, whether MD or DO, there will be a shift from the Carib to those new spots. Presumably, those people who "just missed the cut" and would be the "top" applicants to the Carib, will now get into the US schools. The overall MCAT/GPA of the US schools will go down, and the same for the Carib's. This new influx of US grads will start to saturate the residency market. However, most of this growth is in the DO system, and it remains unclear whether the allo residency programs will simply accept them or not. Regardless, as pressure mounts and the number of residency slots starts to equal the number of graduates, I expect IMG's will get pushed out, and I expect Congress will do so not by trying to regulate the match (which could fall afoul of the anti-discrimination laws), but rather by closing the H1b visa. Without that, the interest of IMG's coming to the US will decrease exponentially.

However, this does beg the question asked in the H1b application -- When is an IMG equivalent or actually superior to a lower performing US grad? It's a tough question. The USMLE's theoretically tell us who is competent to practice medicine and who is not. But it's obvious that this oversimplifies the situation. I mean, if you get a 182 you're competent but if you get a 181 you're not? That's obviously crazy. My experience tends to suggest that those US grads scoring above the 25th percentile on the USMLE tend to do fine, but those below the 25th percentile (when I take them) tend to struggle more in my program -- not all, but much more likely than those with better USMLE scores. So, as a PD, the tough question here is given a US grad with low but passing scores (and an equivalent performance in medical school -- i.e. the bottom 25% of their class) or an IMG with good scores and perhaps some US experience, which is more deserving / the best risk / will make the best doctor / etc.
 
My answer was about your discussion of why AMGs should favor IMGs, cause of their familiarities with this culture and language and I said even if you are USIMG which means you can speak fluently and can understand the people culture as well as AMG you still have the same problem.
That was only one aspect of what I discussed in my post. First I mentioned program directors' familiarity with the US medical education system (and with specific schools and faculty in particular). Then I brought up AMGs' (and Canadians') ability to qualify for AOA, an honor that the most competitive residencies really value.
 
I'm late to the game here. Many good points have been made already.

First, let's not confuse racial / ethnic discrimination with IMG selection issues. It's clearly against the law for me to treat two US grads, or two otherwise identical IMG's for that matter, differently based upon their race, national origin, etc. However, it's perfectly acceptable for me to select based upon what medical school you went to, or what clinical experience you have. If I decide, based upon my experience, that graduates of BMS (That's the "Best Medical School") are terrible, I am well within my rights to decide not to interview them, even if their USMLE scores are good. As mentioned above, I often have no idea how good an international medical school is, and hence the importance of US clinical experience.

Another issue not raised previously is about visas. Many IMG's choose to train on an H1b visa, which requires that there not be an equivalently competent US citizen available to do that job. There is no question that this burden is met in FM, IM and some other primary care fields. However, I would have a problem with any foreign citizen getting an H1b visa in Derm, Rads, Anesthesia, etc. There are plenty of qualified US citizens for those positions. Please note that anyone who does not need a visa -- those with green cards, etc -- would be immune to this argument. A discussion of whether the US should offer J visas (training physicians in this country to take that knowledge back to their own country to improve health care there) is a subject for another thread.

Last, a quick comment about exPCM's discussion of the future of IMG's in the US. I agree that as US schools expand, whether MD or DO, there will be a shift from the Carib to those new spots. Presumably, those people who "just missed the cut" and would be the "top" applicants to the Carib, will now get into the US schools. The overall MCAT/GPA of the US schools will go down, and the same for the Carib's. This new influx of US grads will start to saturate the residency market. However, most of this growth is in the DO system, and it remains unclear whether the allo residency programs will simply accept them or not. Regardless, as pressure mounts and the number of residency slots starts to equal the number of graduates, I expect IMG's will get pushed out, and I expect Congress will do so not by trying to regulate the match (which could fall afoul of the anti-discrimination laws), but rather by closing the H1b visa. Without that, the interest of IMG's coming to the US will decrease exponentially.

However, this does beg the question asked in the H1b application -- When is an IMG equivalent or actually superior to a lower performing US grad? It's a tough question. The USMLE's theoretically tell us who is competent to practice medicine and who is not. But it's obvious that this oversimplifies the situation. I mean, if you get a 182 you're competent but if you get a 181 you're not? That's obviously crazy. My experience tends to suggest that those US grads scoring above the 25th percentile on the USMLE tend to do fine, but those below the 25th percentile (when I take them) tend to struggle more in my program -- not all, but much more likely than those with better USMLE scores. So, as a PD, the tough question here is given a US grad with low but passing scores (and an equivalent performance in medical school -- i.e. the bottom 25% of their class) or an IMG with good scores and perhaps some US experience, which is more deserving / the best risk / will make the best doctor / etc.

Thank you for your post. However if you look at absolute numbers there will actually a greater increase in MD students than DO students. The DO increase is higher on a percentage basis due to the lower starting base enrollment.
Also I do think if residency programs start selecting IMGs in favor of the bottom 25% of US grads and thus these US grads are unable to get into a residency then there may well be a backlash which might include Congressional intervention. The US med schools have long trumpeted phrases like P=MD & P=DO( if you pass then you will be able to practice as a doctor) . They will not be happy with a new paradigm of top 75% of class=practicing doctor & bottom 25% of class = unemployed med school grad with no residency and 200K debt The med schools may well complain to their Congressional representatives if this happens and thus the ball starts rolling.
 
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Thank you for your post. However if you look at absolute numbers there will actually a greater increase in MD students than DO students. The DO increase is higher on a percentage basis due to the lower starting base enrollment.

Thanks for the AAMC links. You are correct, and I stand corrected. Sadly, I think that allo MD schools are increasing enrollment not because of a physician shortage, but instead because of financial pressures.

Also I do think if residency programs start selecting IMGs in favor of the bottom 25% of US grads and thus these US grads are unable to get into a residency then there may well be a backlash which might include Congressional intervention. The US med schools have long trumpeted phrases like P=MD & P=DO( if you pass then you will be able to practice as a doctor) . They will not be happy with a new paradigm of top 75% of class=practicing doctor & bottom 25% of class = unemployed med school grad with no residency and 200K debt The med schools may well complain to their Congressional representatives if this happens and thus the ball starts rolling.

Totally agree. Hence my point that if this all comes to fruition (which seems likely at this point, since med schools have increased enrollment and residencies are not planning to increase, as funding caps have been implemented and Medicare is going bankrupt anyway), I expect Congress to close the H1b door as the simplest way to address this, rather than trying to tinker with the Match which would be difficult, could do more harm than good, is on unclear legal ground, and assuming the NRMP fights back, would take decades. Changing the H1b visa process is directly Congress's job. Of note, this would leave US IMG's in the mix. As the number of US MD/DO's approaches the number of PGY-1 slots, they will feel the squeeze. If there is impetus to go beyond that, then we'll need a two stage match or some other major redesign.

Obviously, this involves a tremendous number of changes. Current programs that fill with IMG's and might be appropriately horrified by changes in US visa policy today, will find that they are filling with US grads instead. Of course, that means that some US grads will need to go and train at these programs. Currently, they are not on the US MD's radar at all. Whether med school grads will be happy with this is unclear.
 
I don't think that being in debt is a good justification for an AMG to fill a spot. You can sell all your products if you close your border to importing products but it is not good for customers, and even for the factory in long term
When you become American it is not fair to say that I am more American than you, whether you like it or not, by law you have the same rights that other Americans have. You cannot say that you should only be able to reach to a limited level because you are not born here. Of course that you can change the law, but till that time you cannot treat Americans based on their ethnicity or origin of country.
I think this should be the same rule for the practice of medicine too. You can change the law, you can ban IMGs to come into US or you can set some limitations for the residencies that we are allowed to apply, but till that time you cannot treat us as second place doctors. You cannot say that ECFMG certificate doctors cannot communicate with their patients, what is the purpose of USMLE STEP2 CS??? Possibly there are some people in AMA that think you would be qualified if you pass that. If I get 90 on step1 as an IMG I know as much as an AMG with the score of 90 and if I am able to pass the CS I will be as qualified as an AMG in terms of communication.
The bottom line is, it is not fair to be treated as a second place doctor while you have the scientific qualification just because you are not in debt or you are not educated here. This would be discrimination, whether you like the term or not.
 
Thanks for the AAMC links. You are correct, and I stand corrected. Sadly, I think that allo MD schools are increasing enrollment not because of a physician shortage, but instead because of financial pressures.



Totally agree. Hence my point that if this all comes to fruition (which seems likely at this point, since med schools have increased enrollment and residencies are not planning to increase, as funding caps have been implemented and Medicare is going bankrupt anyway), I expect Congress to close the H1b door as the simplest way to address this, rather than trying to tinker with the Match which would be difficult, could do more harm than good, is on unclear legal ground, and assuming the NRMP fights back, would take decades. Changing the H1b visa process is directly Congress's job. Of note, this would leave US IMG's in the mix. As the number of US MD/DO's approaches the number of PGY-1 slots, they will feel the squeeze. If there is impetus to go beyond that, then we'll need a two stage match or some other major redesign.

Obviously, this involves a tremendous number of changes. Current programs that fill with IMG's and might be appropriately horrified by changes in US visa policy today, will find that they are filling with US grads instead. Of course, that means that some US grads will need to go and train at these programs. Currently, they are not on the US MD's radar at all. Whether med school grads will be happy with this is unclear.

Aprogdirector, you make some very good points. Thank you for your valuable contributions to this forum.
 
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I have a question from ProgDirector , in medicine we are moving toward the evidence based practice and we try to replace the individual judgments by more advanced, document based approaches. I am not talking just about the IMGs, but don’t you think that maybe we need a totally objective qualifying, evaluating system that give us some score that you know exactly where you are standing as an IMG or even AMGs from different schools. I don’t know exactly how it can be, but a qualification system that gives you score and you know your stage and even your prognosis in your future career. An evaluating system that it final product can be assessed only by its achievements during the process.
 
Are you from Iran? There is a dermlover on Yahoo360 from Iran. If so you must admit there is a lot of discrimination and racism in your native land http://www.petertatchell.net/international/iranraciststate.htm

No I am not....I told you that I am not a dermatology resident( I wish I was) and that person is a dermatologist or a resident. wherever my country is, why do you try to make this discussion personally. Even if I say that my country is Iraq, Iran, North Korea or I don't know....China does it make difference. this would be an example of dicrimination when you wanna judge me based on my country, am I right????👎thumbdown👎thumbdown
 
BTW, r u searching to find who the hell am I😳😳😳

No.

No I am not....I told you that I am not a dermatology resident( I wish I was) and that person is a dermatologist or a resident. wherever my country is, why do you try to make this discussion personally. Even if I say that my country is Iraq, Iran, North Korea or I don't know....China does it make difference. this would be an example of dicrimination when you wanna judge me based on my country, am I right????👎thumbdown👎thumbdown

I said nothing about judging YOU based on your country. I did say US grads should get preference for US residency slots. It appears you are upset about the distinct possibility that you will not match into dermatology. I would suggest that getting overly emotional about this issue is not beneficial for you.
 
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I don't think that being in debt is a good justification for an AMG to fill a spot. You can sell all your products if you close your border to importing products but it is not good for customers, and even for the factory in long term
When you become American it is not fair to say that I am more American than you, whether you like it or not, by law you have the same rights that other Americans have. You cannot say that you should only be able to reach to a limited level because you are not born here. Of course that you can change the law, but till that time you cannot treat Americans based on their ethnicity or origin of country.
I think this should be the same rule for the practice of medicine too. You can change the law, you can ban IMGs to come into US or you can set some limitations for the residencies that we are allowed to apply, but till that time you cannot treat us as second place doctors. You cannot say that ECFMG certificate doctors cannot communicate with their patients, what is the purpose of USMLE STEP2 CS??? Possibly there are some people in AMA that think you would be qualified if you pass that. If I get 90 on step1 as an IMG I know as much as an AMG with the score of 90 and if I am able to pass the CS I will be as qualified as an AMG in terms of communication.
The bottom line is, it is not fair to be treated as a second place doctor while you have the scientific qualification just because you are not in debt or you are not educated here. This would be discrimination, whether you like the term or not.
It is not discrimination, it is selection, and I wish you would just attempt to understand that. You are still so completely fixated on scores, even though an actual program director has posted on this thread to confirm what a small part of his selection process those scores actually are.
 
Why are we even beating this horse with this individual who seems to NOT get it? it is truly pointless. BTW, NOT AT ALL COUNTRIES LET FOREING TRAINED DOCTORS INTO THEIR RESIDENCY, so WTF are you complaining about? here, you have a great chance to train for residency as an IMG/FMG and yet they are still bitching....the more you give them the more they want.
 
I have a question from ProgDirector , in medicine we are moving toward the evidence based practice and we try to replace the individual judgments by more advanced, document based approaches. I am not talking just about the IMGs, but don’t you think that maybe we need a totally objective qualifying, evaluating system that give us some score that you know exactly where you are standing as an IMG or even AMGs from different schools. I don’t know exactly how it can be, but a qualification system that gives you score and you know your stage and even your prognosis in your future career. An evaluating system that it final product can be assessed only by its achievements during the process.

My personal feeling is that such an exam / scoring system doesn't exist and can't exist. There is no simple metric for "a good physician", and I doubt we can make an exam to do so. That's why resident selection is going to remain a subjective process.

A similar argument could be made for President of the US. Why don't we make a test that tells us who the best person is? Then we could give the test to anyone who might be interested, and the person that scores the best gets to be President? It won't work, because you can't measure "Presidentialness" by an exam. Neither can you measure performance by a medical student by an exam.

Also, I get many, many applications from IMG's who have been physicians in their local countires / commuinites. They come with tremendous experience, and might make great docs with little additional training. In fact, it might be really easy for me to simply take them and then not worry about it anymore. However, I see it as my job to train untrained new doctors into fully trained physicians. Already fully trained physicians might to better on a "test" of some sort, but that doesn't mean I should take them into my program.
 
I don't think that being in debt is a good justification for an AMG to fill a spot. You can sell all your products if you close your border to importing products but it is not good for customers, and even for the factory in long term
When you become American it is not fair to say that I am more American than you, whether you like it or not, by law you have the same rights that other Americans have. You cannot say that you should only be able to reach to a limited level because you are not born here. Of course that you can change the law, but till that time you cannot treat Americans based on their ethnicity or origin of country.
I think this should be the same rule for the practice of medicine too. You can change the law, you can ban IMGs to come into US or you can set some limitations for the residencies that we are allowed to apply, but till that time you cannot treat us as second place doctors. You cannot say that ECFMG certificate doctors cannot communicate with their patients, what is the purpose of USMLE STEP2 CS??? Possibly there are some people in AMA that think you would be qualified if you pass that. If I get 90 on step1 as an IMG I know as much as an AMG with the score of 90 and if I am able to pass the CS I will be as qualified as an AMG in terms of communication.
The bottom line is, it is not fair to be treated as a second place doctor while you have the scientific qualification just because you are not in debt or you are not educated here. This would be discrimination, whether you like the term or not.

But the fact of the matter is, you're not an American and so you don't get to enjoy the same privilidges and rights as US citizens. Those of us that are US citizens should have at least some favor with residency directors because US taxpayers are paying our salaries. Period.

The other thing that goes into ranking which you really don't seem to be getting (that almost every other medical student who has looked at the US match system does) is that more is considered than board scores and publications. The program is going to be stuck with you for at least three years, and so you have to be a hard working individual who doesn't whine all the time about everything. Are you punctual, do you work well with patients, do you go the extra mile, etc? Are you a mature individual?

Again, in a field like dermatology, there are no shortage of over-qualified AMG's and so a PD really has to ask himself/herself why he/she would take an FMG from a medical school that he/she is unfamiliar with? It doesn't make sense to if you can fill your program with AMG's with the same or better qualifications.
 
But the fact of the matter is, you're not an American and so you don't get to enjoy the same privilidges and rights as US citizens

Actually, according to the first post on the other thread, the OP has a green card, and hence would usually get most of the same privileges as a US Cit except for the ability to vote.
 
I have a question from ProgDirector , in medicine we are moving toward the evidence based practice and we try to replace the individual judgments by more advanced, document based approaches. I am not talking just about the IMGs, but don’t you think that maybe we need a totally objective qualifying, evaluating system that give us some score that you know exactly where you are standing as an IMG or even AMGs from different schools.

:laugh: I love children. So filled with hope.

My response comes straight from the mouth of the wise Dr. Cox:

You go do that. And I'll go find God, quit drinking, get in touch with myself emotionally, and we'll meet right back here at half past impossible. Mm'kay?

Dr.Cox.jpg
 
I don’t know exactly how it can be, but a qualification system that gives you score and you know your stage and even your prognosis in your future career. An evaluating system that it final product can be assessed only by its achievements during the process.

Oh I know exactly what you're talking about. I've seen it on late night TV.

One of these right?

fortune_teller.jpg


Be careful, you can rack up a whopping phone bill with this kind of qualification system.
 
I don’t know exactly how it can be, but a qualification system that gives you score and you know your stage and even your prognosis in your future career. An evaluating system that it final product can be assessed only by its achievements during the process.

I just realized I was being incredibly insensitive in my prior posts.

With the economy the way it is now, Americans (and IMG's for that matter) cannot afford to be wasting their money on 1-900 fortune tellers for a prognosis of their future careers.

Instead, head over to your local Spencer's Gifts and pick up one of these hot babies. Affordable and always honest. Just remember to shake.

magic8balllr1.jpg
 
It is much, much easier for an FMG/IMG from almost anywhere in the world to obtain a residency in the United States than for a US grad to obtain one overseas.

This is not only true of medicine, but of almost any area of work that you can think of. Almost every other nation on earth puts up nearly insurmountable barriers for US citizens to work within their borders; this is because their governments are committed to preserving their job markets for their citizens.

In comparison, the United States has acted sort of like a jobs program for the world. While this is good for people who want to move here the end result is that it keeps wages lower than they otherwise would be.
 
You cannot say that ECFMG certificate doctors cannot communicate with their patients, what is the purpose of USMLE STEP2 CS??? ... If I get 90 on step1 as an IMG I know as much as an AMG with the score of 90 and if I am able to pass the CS I will be as qualified as an AMG in terms of communication.

:laugh: Oh man, thanks for a good laugh.

The bottom line is, it is not fair to be treated as a second place doctor while you have the scientific qualification just because you are not in debt or you are not educated here.

Yes, it is. Merely passing the USMLE's and having equivalent scores still does not make an FMG an equivalent doc. The issues of concern for and loyalty to the various facets of our society, our patients, and our communities, as well as the cultural disjunct, still stand.

In the end, it doesn't matter if you convince us of your point or not since it does not help you achieve your goal of getting into a dermatology residency. It does, however, achieve the goal of annoying (some of) us.
 
Thank you everyone, for your honest postings. I got enough out of these conversations. It appears that most f the new postings are more personal, which was not the point of this thread. I apologize if I made any comments that you interpreted as annoying, insulting and offensive. It was not my goal.
 
as a US IMG, I have no problem with a spot preferentially going to US citizens/Perm residents who have paid taxes/parents pay taxes/ and will continue to pay taxes in this country and work here.

I even understand why a PD will choose a US grad over an US IMG/FMG with all things being equal, because they are the least "risky" candidates. But I think its wrong for a program to pick a FMG from another country over a US citizen/Perm resident if all things are equal (scores, qualifications etc...)

But I do believe that FMGs serve an important part of the healthcare system and until US doctors are willing to work primary care jobs in rural america, it will continue to be this way.
 
This is not only true of medicine, but of almost any area of work that you can think of. Almost every other nation on earth puts up nearly insurmountable barriers for US citizens to work within their borders; this is because their governments are committed to preserving their job markets for their citizens.

In comparison, the United States has acted sort of like a jobs program for the world. While this is good for people who want to move here the end result is that it keeps wages lower than they otherwise would be.

Old_Mil, no disrespect intended but how many US citizens (proportionate to the country's population) have even left the country for a holiday, much less tried looking for a job in a different country? Now, I do agree that it is not easy for a US citizen to get a job, say, even in the UK - my husband, for instance, has had to ride on my visa all the time we have been living here. But, to say that this creates a major problem to US citizens in general is a bit of an overstatement. Most US citizens spend their life in the US, blissfully unaware of the life outside (this is a statement of fact, not criticism); so those insurmountable barriers you are talking about have minimal effect on US citizens.

As far as the second part of your statement... Yes, I suppose the US is a bit of "jobs program" for the world - because it is a big country with a lot of unmet demand in the job market. Case in point: I was perusing psych programs websites, looking at numbers of FMGs in different programs. Just compare the numbers of FMG residents in (say) Harvard psych residencies vs the number of FMG residents in (say) Omaha, Nebraska. Do you think the difference is due to the fact that few AMGs want to be in Nebraska, or is it due to the fact that PDs in Nebraska for some bizarre reason favour FMGs over AMGs? FMGs (largely) fill the slots AMGs do not want to take, and then, as J1-waivers or H1Bs they sign up for attending jobs that AMGs do not want to do.

I do not in the least support DERMOLOVER's ambition that FMGs must be given the same treatment as AMGs - because that would not be fair; but please do not tell me that the selfless US government is hiring FMGs at the expense of AMGs purely out of the goodness of their collective heart - because, that is not true.
 
But, to say that this creates a major problem to US citizens in general is a bit of an overstatement. Most US citizens spend their life in the US, blissfully unaware of the life outside (this is a statement of fact, not criticism); so those insurmountable barriers you are talking about have minimal effect on US citizens.

As far as the second part of your statement... Yes, I suppose the US is a bit of "jobs program" for the world - because it is a big country with a lot of unmet demand in the job market. Case in point: I was perusing psych programs websites, looking at numbers of FMGs in different programs. Just compare the numbers of FMG residents in (say) Harvard psych residencies vs the number of FMG residents in (say) Omaha, Nebraska. Do you think the difference is due to the fact that few AMGs want to be in Nebraska, or is it due to the fact that PDs in Nebraska for some bizarre reason favour FMGs over AMGs? FMGs (largely) fill the slots AMGs do not want to take, and then, as J1-waivers or H1Bs they sign up for attending jobs that AMGs do not want to do.

I do not in the least support DERMOLOVER's ambition that FMGs must be given the same treatment as AMGs - because that would not be fair; but please do not tell me that the selfless US government is hiring FMGs at the expense of AMGs purely out of the goodness of their collective heart - because, that is not true.

The problem has two aspects to it. First, by shutting US citizens out, other countries reduce employment opportunities for our nationals in a way we don't for theirs. This affects different fields to different degrees, but given that pay and benefits in Japan and Europe are far better than within our borders for equal work such jobs would undoubtedly be attractive to our people were they accessible.

Second, and more seriously, expanding the domestic labor force drives down domestic wages. You cite the lack of AMG applicants to midwestern Psych residencies relative to Harvard. Would such a disparity exist if Medicare raised the pay at Midwestern psych residencies to 25% higher than that at Harvard? 50% higher? 100% higher?

The thing about a market economy is that it is supposed to allow price to correct imbalances in demand. We've been very good at letting it function in that way when it comes to sports cars and vacation homes. However when the market moves to correct an imbalance in labor supply by raising wages, the government immediately intervenes to try and force labor costs down (in this case by importing FMGs). As you say, it certainly isn't out of the goodness of their hearts.

In the end, this hurts Americans. It's not limited to residents, to medicine, or for that matter to white collar jobs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gi1R4iDx3Lg&feature=related
 
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Some random thoughts:

Step 2 CS = language proficiency? *snort* I just spilled tea all over myself. I'm the son of an FMG. I used to give her hell for her accent and misspeakings all the time. Do you know when I stopped? A couple days after the beginning of third year. I just couldn't pretend it was all that bad anymore.

FMG school quality. I can only speak about a few countries here, namely India, and I only go back once every couple of years, but the family stays well in touch. And it has become apparent that in many of these nations, doctor mills have grown up by the thousands. How some USMGs feel about caribbean schools pales in comparison to how many of the older generation of FMGs feel about the newer generation, specifically the quality of their schooling. I get an earful everytime I got to an Indian party.

Now, that isn't to say that other countries don't produce fine doctors. The three residents I was most impressed by during my core rotations were each and every one FMGs, all from different countries.

But what really gets me is that sense of entitlement. I just cannot believe some of the comments from some FMGs in this thread. Unbelievable.
 
The problem has two aspects to it. First, by shutting US citizens out, other countries reduce employment opportunities for our nationals in a way we don't for theirs. This affects different fields to different degrees, but given that pay and benefits in Japan and Europe are far better than within our borders for equal work such jobs would undoubtedly be attractive to our people were they accessible.
1) To re-iterate, the number of US citizens looking for jobs abroad is miniscule. 2) Are you aware of all the hurdles both the foreign citizens AND their US-based prospective employers have to jump through to secure either H1B or J1 visa? 3) My husband is a US-born and bred citizen, who only moved to the UK to join me. He has a job (pay for which is at best comparable to the US pay, but certainly not better), 6 weeks of vacation time, paternity leave etc - all the good benefits you are talking about. Yet, he (and all the American expats we know in this country) can't stop talking about "going back home". Ever heard about homesickness? Guess what, even great benefits can't cure you from it.

Second, and more seriously, expanding the domestic labor force drives down domestic wages. You cite the lack of AMG applicants to midwestern Psych residencies relative to Harvard. Would such a disparity exist if Medicare raised the pay at Midwestern psych residencies to 25% higher than that at Harvard? 50% higher? 100% higher?
You cannot SERIOUSLY suggest that Medicare (that is already about to collapse) would raise residents' pay in certain locations purely to attract AMGs there, can you? You have to step back and think about the whole country and the big picture, rather than just worrying about your "AMG interests" (that, imho, are already reasonably well protected).

The thing about a market economy is that it is supposed to allow price to correct imbalances in demand. We've been very good at letting it function in that way when it comes to sports cars and vacation homes. However when the market moves to correct an imbalance in labor supply by raising wages, the government immediately intervenes to try and force labor costs down (in this case by importing FMGs). As you say, it certainly isn't out of the goodness of their hearts.

In the end, this hurts Americans. It's not limited to residents, to medicine, or for that matter to white collar jobs.
This is turning into a general (anti-) globalisation discussion. Immigrants and their (cheaper) labour allow to keep the prices of goods and services down, which has overall positive effect on improving everyone's standard of living - though it may have some negative effect on selected groups. Sorry!
 
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The programs want these FMGs because without them they would collapse. They are self-perpetuating, not necessarily protecting any real national interest.

May I say that they may, in fact, be protecting national interest by allowing some hospitals to function? Looking at salaries and benefits, it is far cheaper for the hospital to employ a resident than a PA - plus, the PA may actually want to enforce their working hours.
 
The bottom line is, it is not fair to be treated as a second place doctor while you have the scientific qualification just because you are not in debt or you are not educated here. This would be discrimination, whether you like the term or not.

Ahem... Actually, it is fair. That is just employers exercising reasonable caution in employee selection process - whether you like that term or not.

And you know, about that Step 2 CS thing... Are you REALLY that naive???
 
dermlover,
For a program director to take a well qualified applicant from a US med school over a high USMLE Scoring applicant who is an IMG w/publications is not necessarily racism or "discrimination" in the sense you are trying to say that it is. You are saying this is all about racism or discriminating against immigrants. It isn't. I'll give you a "for example". There were a couple of people in my med school class who were from other countries (Trinidad, places in Africa, etc.) but who had gone to good universities in the US and then gotten in to my med school, which had a top 10 rank in the US. Now, those people all got good residencies in the US. If liking US medical grads over IMG's was only an issue of racism or discriminating against immigrants, then these people should have done terrible in the match, but they didn't. This may be a case of "discrimination" against your medical school and your medical training thus far, because how can a program director in the US who has never practiced with (and perhaps never even met or heard of) a doctor trained by your med school properly evaluate your grades and other evaluations from that school, or your clinical abilities?

I also think the case of a green card holder who is already an immigrant is different than someone wanting to come over here on H1b visa (which is supposed to be for filling up jobs US people don't want, or for which there are no qualified US citizens, etc.) who is physically in another country (i.e. doesn't already live here). Also, a US citizen IMG is different than some H1b visa holder who is not a US citizen and doesn't have the same rights as a US citizen.

If you have a green card, USMLE score of 250 and multiple publications, then go ahead and apply for derm, but have a backup. Pretty much all US grads who are applying for derm also have a backup, because it's damn hard to get in. Getting in to derm isn't an issue of "qualified" vs. "not qualified". There are far more qualified people than the residencies can take.
 
I'm just wondering... With as negative an opinion of the US healthcare system as the OP seems to have (racism, unfairness, cronyism, biased PD's and colleagues, etc etc)... Why would he want to come here?

Apparently the unbiased, open nature of medical training systems of his own country have given him a lofty position from which to criticize the US system. So... why not stay there?
 
IMG should be allowed to go into residency but first all spots should be filled with american graduates....

im an IMG and i think that it is their country, they payed 100,000 dollars for their career and they have the right to be accepted over an IMG!
 
Actually it's 130-140,000 US dollars average student loan debt for an average graduating medical student now in the US....
 
IMG should be allowed to go into residency but first all spots should be filled with american graduates....

im an IMG and i think that it is their country, they payed 100,000 dollars for their career and they have the right to be accepted over an IMG!
Not all IMGs are like you, lots of Candian and US IMGs have just as much debt as US students, often more.
 
Great, another "bash the IMGs"thread in response to a frustrated IMG who made the mistake of complaining to a forum chiefly populated by US medical school students/products of US medical school, seeking understanding.

I'm on the edge of my seat here. Who knows where this thread will go? I'm sure the arguments against the OP will get more novel. They will, right? 'Cause I got popcorn going...
 
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Hmmm....I fail to see any bashing of IMGs here.

If anything, FMGs are taking the hit, not US citizens abroad (ie, IMGs). The argument here is that citizens who pay taxes should have first priority for taxpayer paid jobs in the US.

This is not bashing, but a simple fact of life around the world (not just the US).
 
But I do believe that FMGs serve an important part of the healthcare system and until US doctors are willing to work primary care jobs in rural america, it will continue to be this way.

Totally agree. We import folks to fill slots we can't fill (yet). As we increase med school ranks without increasing residencies, we will fill more and more of these slots, but until then, we do need IMGs to pick up the slack. But the OP isn't hoping for any residencies. He wants a derm residency, one where, by definition, there are always numerous qualified US students shooting for every slot. Such a case is totally different from what you describe. Yes we need IMGs to fill the slots we currently aren't. But no we don't need them for slots we are, and since there is no way to look at two talented people and decide who is going to be a "better" doctor, (and since everyone concedes that the USMLE was never intended for this and very likely will be revamped within the decade to avoid people doing exactly this), you always have to give the nod to the home team.
 
Our AMA will write to each residency program director reminding them of both federal law and AMA policy with respect to their obligation to consider all qualified applicants regardless of their country of medical education. (Res. 303, I-98)
In the event of reductions in the resident workforce, the AMA will advocate for a mechanism of resident selection which promotes the maintenance of resident physician training opportunities for all qualified graduates of United States Liaison Committee on Medical Education and American Osteopathic Association accredited institutions; and the AMA adopts the position that it will be an advocate for IMGs already legally present in this country. (Res. 324, A-97; Reaffirmed: CME Rep. 10, A-99)
Our AMA supports continued efforts to protect the rights and privileges of all physicians duly licensed in the U.S. regardless of ethnic or educational background and opposes any legislative efforts to discriminate against duly licensed physicians on the basis of ethnic or educational background. (Res. 56, A-86; Reaffirmed: Sunset Report, I-96; Reaffirmation A-00)
 
What is your point Dermlover?

Everyone knows that residency programs cannot legally ban you from becoming a derm resident solely based on the country of your origin. But that does not mean they have to give you a position over a US citizen if they prefer the US citizen. Everyone knows that the AMA (which is nearly 40% FMGs) supports FMGs. But the AMA has no jurisdiction with the RRC and ACGME and your quotes above (once again in non-standard SDN format) have no bearing on this issue.

Stop raising red herrings and listen to what everyone is telling you. You demand something of US residency program that you would not even be given a second look at in other countries. When I worked at the VA I applied for a job that would have to have been given to a vet if one with similar qualifications applied. When I lived in Australia, I got a job over a non-Aussie citizen. Were those unfair?

No one has a right to demand a position. Your application will be considered. If they consider you a competitive applicant whom they would like to know more about, you will be offered an interview.
 
Our AMA will write to each residency program director reminding them of both federal law and AMA policy with respect to their obligation to consider all qualified applicants regardless of their country of medical education. (Res. 303, I-98)

Um, could you cite to the federal law that says this (rather than some AMA suggested policy which doesn't legally bind the hospitals here, as correctly mentioned in the prior post.). I believe the federal law doesn't allow discrimination based on "national origin", but I kind of doubt it doesn't permit discrimination based on notions of quality of medical education within such countries. In fact, I'd wager it does permit this as it happens all the time in lots of contexts, even outside of medicine. You are relying on a strained reading of the law as transposed by the AMA. The federal law absolutely allows PDs to look at where the student was educated as part of their analysis.

You are pulling obscure non-binding cites from non-governing organizations, out of context (which makes pretty clear how weak your argument really is), but the law is pretty clear -- foreign educated students are not one of the "protected classes" under our discrimination laws. You can generally be discriminated in at will for things other than sex, race, national origin, age or orientation. As a result, you are entitled nothing, you are at the whim of program directors, many of whom will be able to gauge quality better in programs they are more familiar with. So the dude who got all honors and solid evals in a US med school probably has something to show to the program director that he can evaluate much better than someone who got A's in a foreign program. (As mentioned, the USMLE isn't a test to demonstrate who is "better" so assuming both groups meet some sort of threshold for the specialty, this isn't as likely to be the determining factor). So yeah, in most cases that will give the US dude the nod. And it won't be illegal discrimination. Nice try.



Also can you please please please stop messing with the fonts and sizes in your posts.
 
Looks like Dermlover is still a this. Give it a break.

Even US grads have a difficult time getting into a Derm program. It no just competitive. It's about who you know.

It's not about if you are an IMG or FMG it is about your scores and who you know.

Derm used to be one of the least competitive residencies in the US. They use to call them pimple poppers. or something like that.

when the IM salaries dropped and specialty salaries went up derm became a highly sought after specialty. It's about the MONEY. And lifestyle. Derm offers both.
AND that is why you want it so bad.

Years ago, IM was the specialty to go to because it is where the money was.

20 years ago anesthesiologist were making 120K now much more. Back then no one wanted to go into anesthesiology because of the money.

Now very few want to go into FP or IM because of the money.

The board scores a secondary.

They don't let IMGs and FMGs in very often because they have to be competitive and if you are an IMG you were not as competitive as the AMG. (at least not on paper regradless of you scores unless you got a 260 on step one and know someone on the inside.)
 
Joe,
I am not talking about Dermatology any more. some say that all the positions(IM,FM,Surg,....)should be first filled with all the USMG, then if there are unfilled spots, that should be given to IMGs.
 
Joe,
I am not talking about Dermatology any more. some say that all the positions(IM,FM,Surg,....)should be first filled with all the USMG, then if there are unfilled spots, that should be given to IMGs.

I don't think anyone here is saying that-- we're saying that one of the factors that goes into ranking is citizenship status and where you graduated. Qualified AMG's tend to be favored over qualified FMG's, period. Get over it.
 
IMG's can take as long as they want to study for USMLE's, while almost all US graduates took Step 1 a few weeks after second year. So that is why a IMG with a score of 230 still would not be favorable to a US grad with a 215. At least that's what I think.
 
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