Should you lie about how you got your MCAT score?

[Udreamin]

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My friend was asked at an interview about his preparation and how he studied to get his really high MCAT score first try (99th percentile). The reality is that he studied for 7 months, bought a bunch of books (a lot of books), took 2 $5k preparatory courses then spammed his entire summer taking practice tests. Honestly, he earned it.

But he told his interviewer he spent about a month studying and taking "a few practice tests," mentioning only a few of the dozen brand name preparatory books he used.

Was that the right move here? He justified his lie to me by saying that if he was honest, he'd look completely unimpressive compared to all the dudes who studied for a month and made 80th percentile.

But does it? If you told your interviewer how hard you prepared for the test, this can really show them how dedicated you'd be for preparing for something like step 1 or step 2 and might give you the edge.

 

[eteshoe]

Does it really matter? A high MCAT score + high GPA means the person is a hard worker. How "hard" of a worker they are is completely subjective. As far as "impressiveness", I would feel that a 99th percentile is more impressive than an 80th percentile regardless of how much it took to get there.

 

[NotASerialKiller]

Absolutely, adcoms hate students who work hard to achieve their goals.

 

[GrapesofRath]

This thread is honest to god the most SDN thing ever in just everyway possible.

 

[mr.mkitty]

I think what your friend said is simply silly.
I always think it's foolish when people would prefer to brag about their inherent intelligence rather than their hard work/effort.
In my opinion, assuming the person isn't an utter *****, I find hard work and passion is far more attractive and alluring than a person's inherent intelligence. I would also feel this way if I was an adcom.
There are of course limits to this.. But when it comes to the MCAT, I think the committment would be better to brag about.

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

Honestly, you can work your butt off and still get a bad score on the MCAT. The point is that he got the score cause he was smart, not because he overprepared

 

[frosted_flake]

I'd be damn proud of a 99%ile+ MCAT score. The hell is wrong with people these days.

 

[Petrichor1]

Honestly, you can work your butt off and still get a bad score on the MCAT. The point is that he got the score cause he was smart, not because he overprepared

he also had the money, which lended to >10k on prep stuff. There's no competing someone like that

 

[EverStriving]

he also had the money, which lended to >10k on prep stuff. There's no competing someone like that

You definitely don't need to spend 10k to get a great MCAT score. And it's also no guarantee even if you do cough up the dough. All you really need is a decent review book set and the complete bundle of AAMC prep materials. $500 tops if you throw in a couple extra prep company practice tests too. How you prep is far more important than having huge resources available to you.

 

[Moko]

It takes a tremendous amount of dedication and discipline to study like that. Why should he be ashamed of how hard he worked? Med schools are looking for students like him who will excel academically, study hard, and do well on the Step exams. It's silly to try to hide that.

The part about spending $10k on review materials though, that I would definitely not mention.. shows very questionable judgment (Think of all the babies that could've fed! Missed EC opportunity)

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

The different between taking a course and not taking a course comes down to the fact that taking a course puts everything together for you

 

[EverStriving]

And is potentially a very inefficient use of time. And money. I felt that review books put everything together for me pretty well, but if someone feels they need to sit through a review course and has the money to do so, more power to them.

 

[wholeheartedly]

 

[Lucca]

Admitting that you worked hard to achieve something is obviously not a mistake.

If anyone told me they dropped 10k to study for the MCAT though then I might actually reject them on principle. No matter the score, that person is an idiot.

 

[justreachforthesky]

Honestly, you can work your butt off and still get a bad score on the MCAT. The point is that he got the score cause he was smart, not because he overprepared

What? You don't do well on the MCAT just by being "smart." It's a marathon of studying and practice tests, you need to work and work and work some more to achieve good results. This external locus of control will doom you.

 

[Mad Jack]

I had a stroke after the first post.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Good God. This is some seriously gunner-ish behavior. Not the fact he scored in the 99% tile, but the fact he lied about studying for a month to get that score.

 

[medic86]

Haha. And this question coming from a guy who thinks it's morally wrong to write your own LOR.

Udreamin, bro.

 

[justreachforthesky]

How about we deal with the simple concept that lying in an interview for a profession that places a high value on ethics as you deal with life and death decisions is perhaps that more important point to all this. While this thread thrashes out the ethics of how one got an MCAT score, the larger and more important issue is simply the ethics and integrity of person who seeks to become a physician.

I will admit this entire thread is simply ridiculous, but I do think you are overblowing it a bit. Although it was an absolutely stupid move to make, I would wager it was a nervous/impulsive gesture to impress his or her interviewer(s) rather than something premeditated and evil. If it's the latter, I'm with you on this one. With that said, if he or she had lied about prior convictions, cheating, motives for entering medicine, etc. then we would have something that leaves little to the imagination.


EDIT: It surely was premeditated, I stand corrected 😀

 

[Spector1]

just be vague about it. its really none of their business how you got your mcat score as long as it was done honestly and legally.

 

[tantacles]

My friend was asked at an interview about his preparation and how he studied to get his really high MCAT score first try (99th percentile). The reality is that he studied for 7 months, bought a bunch of books (a lot of books), took 2 $5k preparatory courses then spammed his entire summer taking practice tests. Honestly, he earned it.

But he told his interviewer he spent about a month studying and taking "a few practice tests," mentioning only a few of the dozen brand name preparatory books he used.

Was that the right move here? He justified his lie to me by saying that if he was honest, he'd look completely unimpressive compared to all the dudes who studied for a month and made 80th percentile.

But does it? If you told your interviewer how hard you prepared for the test, this can really show them how dedicated you'd be for preparing for something like step 1 or step 2 and might give you the edge.

Did you ever consider that if you laid out your MCAT prep strategy for an admissions committee member, it would bore them out of their minds? For many people, including me, I want the nutshell version of how you did well on something, not the 40 minute explanation, and that's what your friend gave. "A few" practice tests, "about a month" studying, and "I used some books." Not the biggest deal on the planet.

Your friend earned his MCAT score, and he earned the right to share as little or as much as he wants about how he prepared.

 

[wholeheartedly]

I will admit this entire thread is simply ridiculous, but I do think you are overblowing it a bit. Although it was an absolutely stupid move to make, I would wager it was a nervous/impulsive gesture to impress his or her interviewer(s) rather than something premeditated and evil. If it's the latter, I'm with you on this one. With that said, if he or she had lied about prior convictions, cheating, motives for entering medicine, etc. then we would have something that leaves little to the imagination.

while premedidated bad behavior might be more morally wrong to some, the outcome or consequences of spur of the moment bad behavior might be equally as bad as anything pre meditated.

Having been the patient of a resident who, spur of the moment apparently, decided it was better to BS the attending about the exam he did and questions he asked (or more accurately didn't do and forgot to ask) because he was nervous and trying to make a good impression, I can tell you it was no minor matter. It probably didn't seem like a big deal to him at the time though. But the consequences to me were huge. It also turned out that he had the anxious impulses to fudge on things quite often and it turned into a pattern with him.

 

[eteshoe]

They say "honesty is the best policy" - yet I haven't met anyone who could swear that they're adhered to that policy everyday of their lives. Did the person (really) downplay their MCAT prep? - "yes". Will I try to psycho-analyze anything beyond that? - "no, since I'm not a licensed psychologist".

 

[IslandStyle808]

Probably that it was only stupid nervous response by the OP. But I am talking about the comments in this thread. Not one person of all those of you who want to enter the profession noticed, commented, or even mentioned it in passing anything about lying. We discuss the MCAT, the cost of prep, the hard work, but no one thought it was worth while to mention one of the most basic and important tenets in medicine in a clear and simple situation that presented it.

Understand the underlying concepts of all you is very important

This is the one thing that should have been address more properly in my first post (although yes I did state it indirectly). There are two types of people I usually see in this world. The first is the type who "mainly" live their lives by avoiding punishment. The second type is the ones who "mainly" live their lives by doing the morally right thing to do. The story above is an example of the first. It wasn't so much hiding the fact he too a long time, but exaggerated the truth to make himself look better as a applicant, a lot better. Of course this same kind of person would only feel guilty if punished. People might think this is harsh of me, but consider this, look at the government shutdown a couple years back by the Republican party. People who worked government jobs couldn't get their pay checks, yet the congressmen still got them. They didn't feel guilty one bit for doing something morally wrong. Do you want to work with or be a patient under a doctor who has a similar behavior? Not me. The ones who do the morally right thing do so not because of punishment, but because they believe in the right thing to do.

In this case, he should have just said "I studied several months very hard for this exam." Not only would it not have pointed out the exact amount of months he studied, but it is still an honest statement.

 

[Nerdeka]

Unpopular opinion here, but yes, in my opinion, he should lie. Don't get me wrong, he worked hard and that's great. But if every applicant who got a decent score studied for 8 months instead of the usual 3 months, they too would do a lot better. In my opinion, a student who got a 30 (or eq. now) by studying for 6 months is less ready for med school than someone who got a 28 but studied for 3 months.

 

[Astra]

Let's be honest. No one cares how long how you take to prepare for the MCAT.

But if someone took thousands of dollars worth of prep, people will definitely attribute his success to spending money.

Whether or nor that is true, only god knows. But for his benefit, better to keep his mouth shut.

 

[Rainbow Zebra]

The problem with the question is that there is no way to tell objectively how/what someone did to prepare.
His result was outstanding, that should speak for itself. If there was a discrepancy between a low GPA and a high MCAT, that would be cause for concern for the adcom.

 

[kmp0410]

I think he deserves credit for exhausting every resource available. Regardless of cost, I don't think I could spend that long studying for the MCAT, go through that many review books, sit through that many prep courses. I felt like the MCAT was what you put in...none of that sources make the learning and problem solving part a passive process. He still had to learn and think so he still put the work in. The whole "oh he spent all this money" thing is people making themselves feel better...though I agree its ridiculous to spend that much money. We wouldn't knock the surgeon for doing everything he can/exhausting every resource for the surgery he's about the perform.

That said, should he lie? Who cares. That's a small talk kind of question anyways so I would give it a non-descriptive small talk level answer.

 

[futuremdforme]

Let's be honest. No one cares how long how you take to prepare for the MCAT.

But if someone took thousands of dollars worth of prep, people will definitely attribute his success to spending money.

Whether or nor that is true, only god knows. But for his benefit, better to keep his mouth shut.

Eh, tons of people take a course and still get mediocre scores. It's fine either way, and I think it looks better to admit you worked hard. I did really well and frequently got asked if I took a course and I said no, since I didn't, but I explained how I managed to study around a really busy schedule because it showed my work ethic.

 

[darkeon]

Unpopular opinion here, but yes, in my opinion, he should lie. Don't get me wrong, he worked hard and that's great. But if every applicant who got a decent score studied for 8 months instead of the usual 3 months, they too would do a lot better. In my opinion, a student who got a 30 (or eq. now) by studying for 6 months is less ready for med school than someone who got a 28 but studied for 3 months.

It is hard statement to make. Too many conflicting variables (work, school, family, etc). 6 month studying could consist of studying 3 days a week where the 3 month student studies 6 days a week. I think getting a good score whether it took you 1 month or 8 months is impressive as it shows you had the good judgement to take the test at the time where you were at your strongest in terms of readiness. just my opinion

 

[Lucca]

The idea that X score is worth more because you studied less is so absurd. The bar is *this* high and you must jump that high, it doesn't matter how long it takes you to get there compared to others as long as you are able.

I still contend that anyone who spends 10k on MCAT prep is an idiot though. I spent 150$ on books, about 100$ on AAMC materials/tests and then the registration fee for the actual exam. That's 250$ in prep and it went just fine for me.

 

[LizzyM]

Don't lie.
Downplaying the amount of effort you put into achieving a goal does not lead to being more impressive as a candidate. If anything, it could indicate a dangerous amount of hubris and a lot of luck that ended up working out ok.

 

[justreachforthesky]

while premedidated bad behavior might be more morally wrong to some, the outcome or consequences of spur of the moment bad behavior might be equally as bad as anything pre meditated.

Having been the patient of a resident who, spur of the moment apparently, decided it was better to BS the attending about the exam he did and questions he asked (or more accurately didn't do and forgot to ask) because he was nervous and trying to make a good impression, I can tell you it was no minor matter. It probably didn't seem like a big deal to him at the time though. But the consequences to me were huge. It also turned out that he had the anxious impulses to fudge on things quite often and it turned into a pattern with him.

What's the consequence there? You're comparing apples and oranges, makes no sense. The kid is capable of handling medical school if he is hitting 99 percentile. If not, he will not pass his boards and won't be coming to a clinic or hospital near you. With that score, I don't know many schools that WOULDN'T take him, and I doubt how long he "studied" had any impact on the decision. Interviews are popularity contests, they gauge how well you know how to pleasantly interact with other human beings. A heads up, all residents, students, fellows, etc do that. It's part of survival. Medicine is the king of hierarchical structure. I'd like to see you walk a foot in that residents shoes.


EDIT: This guy was right, even a 'small white lie' is telling of a candidate. I won't be giving the benefit of the doubt to scenarios like this anymore.

 

[justreachforthesky]

Probably that it was only stupid nervous response by the OP. But I am talking about the comments in this thread. Not one person of all those of you who want to enter the profession noticed, commented, or even mentioned it in passing anything about lying. We discuss the MCAT, the cost of prep, the hard work, but no one thought it was worth while to mention one of the most basic and important tenets in medicine in a clear and simple situation that presented it.

Understand the underlying concepts of all you is very important

I think you should shadow in a clinical setting to get a better idea about this profession. There is a hierarchical pecking order, and not every doctor is bhudda himself. In fact, this is not even close to how the world turns in medicine. Real ethics is important, such as patient privacy, keeping your hands to yourself where appropriate, not falsely billing for procedures you didn't do, etc. but you're making a big deal about "How long did this kid really study for his MCAT?" Its ridiculous yet telling.

 

[mimelim]

he also had the money, which lended to >10k on prep stuff. There's no competing someone like that

Of course there is. Plenty of people did as well or better than this kid spending no where near that much. Plenty of people spend boatloads on prep and still don't do well. Money certainly helps in this process, but in MCAT prep, it is minimal. Most strong students don't need prep classes for the MCAT, LSAT or even bar exams. Many do it because that is what most people do and they are cautious.

 

[justreachforthesky]

My friend was asked at an interview about his preparation and how he studied to get his really high MCAT score first try (99th percentile). The reality is that he studied for 7 months, bought a bunch of books (a lot of books), took 2 $5k preparatory courses then spammed his entire summer taking practice tests. Honestly, he earned it.

But he told his interviewer he spent about a month studying and taking "a few practice tests," mentioning only a few of the dozen brand name preparatory books he used.

Was that the right move here? He justified his lie to me by saying that if he was honest, he'd look completely unimpressive compared to all the dudes who studied for a month and made 80th percentile.

But does it? If you told your interviewer how hard you prepared for the test, this can really show them how dedicated you'd be for preparing for something like step 1 or step 2 and might give you the edge.

There is no edge. You'll have the same amount of time as the rest of your classmates to prepare for this exam, and sometimes less depending on your personal/family obligations. Some state schools also will have less time due to other political requirements (serving at an underprivileged hospital that summer for a few weeks instead of studying) but no one will have 7 uninterrupted months to study.

All in all, although he made a bad judgement call, probably in nervousness, I can't definitely say he is a bad person or lacks morals. Honestly your story just sounds absurd and I am beginning to question its validity.

 

[justreachforthesky]

I am a former adcom, now retired, not some obnoxious premed being uppity or pissed off just to be so. I care almost nothing to do about how this applicant prepared for the MCAT or even lying about it. What I am astounded about is that the discussion in this thread centered on the value or impression that paying for a prep course and the amount work the student did for it. Not one person raised any larger issue such the ethics of lying. As for your example of "real ethics" such as patient privacy, again you miss the point. Ethics of any kind, in any part of this profession start with the simple concept of integrity. It is perhaps the most important attribute any physician can have. This isnt integrity to the process or to some ideal, it is integrity to one's self. This also isnt some rant and rave that all doctors should be Buddha himself, even though the tenets of Buddhism actually infer that we all are Buddha. It is that the idea here in this thread that no one thought it was worth mentioning in passing anything about the ethics of the situation. It was solely discussed in the "practical" terms of what would be best to get into to medical school. It was following the "letter" of the process and lost all spirit and philosophy that one would like to see in hopeful physicians. Striving for at all levels for ethics in this profession and not shunted to some place for "real ethics," is what the goal should be, especially for those yet even starting on this path.

Although the story seems fabricated, if the person seriously lacked integrity it will come up in many, many more ways and he will have way too many opportunities to ruin his career. It will show to his superiors and it won't come in the form of lying about how long he studies for, red flags will be blazing left and right.

As for the message boards, I've noticed an emerging pattern that it's the medical school hopefuls that usually focus on the wrong things like what you have mentioned. Looking at old threads, what separates the ones that stay "pre-med" and the ones that become a "Medical Student" or "Resident" really hits home. Lets not forget that procrastinating pre-meds use this as an outlet in addition to everyone else.

By the way, thanks for your contributions 🙂

 

[osckey]

You definitely don't need to spend 10k to get a great MCAT score. And it's also no guarantee even if you do cough up the dough. All you really need is a decent review book set and the complete bundle of AAMC prep materials. $500 tops if you throw in a couple extra prep company practice tests too. How you prep is far more important than having huge resources available to you.

Seriously. I think the only paid for the official practice exams. I got 2nd hand examkrackers books from a first year med student and then used YouTube and the Internet for most of my studying. The amount of free resources available out there is absolutely amazing.

 

[wholeheartedly]

What's the consequence there? You're comparing apples and oranges, makes no sense. The kid is capable of handling medical school if he is hitting 99 percentile. If not, he will not pass his boards and won't be coming to a clinic or hospital near you. With that score, I don't know many schools that WOULDN'T take him, and I doubt how long he "studied" had any impact on the decision. Interviews are popularity contests, they gauge how well you know how to pleasantly interact with other human beings. A heads up, all residents, students, fellows, etc do that. It's part of survival. Medicine is the king of hierarchical structure. I'd like to see you walk a foot in that residents shoes.

Thanks, I work in a teaching hospital and even teach residents and fellows. Have for almost a decade. There are plenty of people who survive residency without behaving the way that resident did. You completely missed my points. First, consequences of bad behavior don't depend on whether or not the behavior was premeditated or not. Second, it's not apples to oranges really. People who get nervous and lie about seemingly minor things in undergrad, med school interviews, or med school to give others a better impression of them are more likely (but not always) to turn into residents that lie about seemingly minor things, like trying to fudge on histories and physical exams. ie "oh yeah, I checked that. it was normal" when they didn't. These are patterns of behavior that often repeat. Only in residency, the seemingly minor things aren't always as minor as they may think they are.

You said it was nervous and impulsive behavior that probably motivated him to do this to give a good impression to the interviewer. I'm saying if his nervousness is strong enough to get him to lie about that in an interview by stressing out about and overanalyzing something most of us think is kinda ridiculous (downstream effects of reporting how many hours he truly studied) what do you think is going to happen when the stakes are higher and he needs to get good evals to get into a competitive fellowship? It's come up on here plenty of times that residents and physicians who have trouble behaving ethically were often people who behaved unethically in more minor ways in undegrad and med and it just gradually progressed.

But this is off topic from the OP, so I won't derail further.

 

[piii]

Your "friend" sounds insecure

 

[OpieFromMayberry]

@Udreamin. I'm curious..did your friend end up getting accepted?


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[KungFuPanda123]

Who cares? The question that the interviewer asked doesn't warrant a whole explanation about how he took multiple classes, studied for more than half a year, etc.. I don't blame him for not diving into the whole story to give a long explanation.

This is why you don't give an overly long answer that deals with unnecessary details:

 

[Chelsea FC]

2 things you never lie about. Your penis size and your Med school app

 

[Chelsea FC]

Hey, watch your language here. What do think this is? a Donald Trump Rally?

I was talking about my hands!

 

[DokterMom]

Don't lie.
Downplaying the amount of effort you put into achieving a goal does not lead to being more impressive as a candidate. If anything, it could indicate a dangerous amount of hubris and a lot of luck that ended up working out ok.

Seriously. The 99th% score alone is sufficient evidence of intelligence. Scores that high that come "that easily " (even when they don't) can raise legitimate concerns. With anything other than a 4.0 GPA, this applicant now risks looking lazy.

 

[OpieFromMayberry]

Seriously. The 99th% score alone is sufficient evidence of intelligence. Scores that high that come "that easily " (even when they don't) can raise legitimate concerns. With anything other than a 4.0 GPA, this applicant now risks looking lazy.

I also have a 99% score and attended a Princeton review class in the summer. It didn't cost $10k though. I also worked as a CNA while taking the class. The review classes helped me focus. I have a 3.85 GPA. Am I considered lazy?


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[DokterMom]

I also have a 99% score and attended a Princeton review class in the summer. It didn't cost $10k though. I also worked as a CNA while taking the class. The review classes helped me focus. I have a 3.85 GPA. Am I considered lazy?
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If you pretend you did almost nothing to score that 99% MCAT score, then yes, you risk looking lazy.

If you admit that you worked conscientiously to get that great MCAT score, it will be assumed that you also worked conscientiously to get that very strong GPA.

Top results + conscientious work ethic = strong credentials.

 

[KungFuPanda123]

I also have a 99% score and attended a Princeton review class in the summer. It didn't cost $10k though. I also worked as a CNA while taking the class. The review classes helped me focus. I have a 3.85 GPA. Am I considered lazy?


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[justreachforthesky]

It's come up on here plenty of times that residents and physicians who have trouble behaving ethically were often people who behaved unethically in more minor ways in undegrad and med and it just gradually progressed.

We'll just have to agree just to disagree. The OP's story (beside his questionable thread history) sounds fabricated to begin with, the "I have a friend that" line isn't one that I'm going to invest anymore energy in. But refer to the quoted area... I am assuming the unethical behavior in undergrad that you're referring to involved cheating or plagiarism, which surprises no one if it progresses into worse behaviors. He didn't lie on his apps, he actually got the 99% MCAT through a long and difficult road, he lied about how long it took him to get there. The kid touted his own horn during an interview, maybe likes to brag, gets nervous..... I don't know but I am not going to dig too deep into this and think the worst of a person that probably doesn't even exist. If he is a problem, red flags will probably be raised and his higher ups will take notice.

 

[justreachforthesky]

Can I double like this