Should your alma maters medical school show particular interest in you?

[Officer Farva]

For example, should Penn State Med go out of their way to help Penn State grads or should USC med look after USC grads? It's a good questions considering all of our significant investments into our college education.

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[virchow?]

The medical school should have no obligation to give you preference. When you pay for college, you pay for the opportunity to earn a degree.

However, it is often beneficial for schools to do that. E.g. most medical schools probably share at least some of the mission of their parent institution.
Additionally, since many public schools have goals to train physicians for (and from) their states, if the medical school is at a prestigious undergraduate school, it might see more qualified applicants coming from its undergrad programs than, e.g., less prestigious state schools.

So there are lots of forces that essentially make it easier for people to get into their alma mater (particularly public institutions), but I would argue that they are not entitled to it because they paid for an undergrad degree there.

 

[Goro]

Depends upon the school. Brown definitely thinks so.

For example, should Penn State Med go out of their way to help Penn State grads or should USC med look after USC grads? It's a good questions considering all of our significant investments into our college education.

 

[whatever5]

Well, it can be a leg up or a leg down depending on what you did in undergrad. They'll definitely have a more comprehensive understanding on how to evaluate you, especially since you will likely have LORs from people they are acquainted with.

 

[Officer Farva]

So, I heard two countering views from my friends. At some medical schools, going to their undergrad is the worst thing in the world if you want to attend their medical school because they want new faces. At other schools, excelling in the undergrad kind of is an audition for going to their medical school.

 

[Goro]

MSAR Online will tell you what % of matriculants are from the med school's UG campus. For example, Yale = 16%; SUNY SB = 15%; U FL = 51%!!!

 

[Lost in Translation]

Pretty sure every med school does this, crappy undergrad or not

Wrong.

 

[darkjedi]

Depends upon the school. Brown definitely thinks so.

Brown only because their PLME program is a combined BA/MD which makes up a big chunk of their MD class. Their normal class doesn't isn't more overrepresented than any of the other schools.

I think the perceived preference is more from the simple fact that many people just like to stay in certain areas and are therefore more likely to matriculate locally or the same school. The med school adcoms are otherwise completely disconnected from the pre-med office and makes decisions with consideration to the diversity of the class.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Some schools preferentially take their own, some don't care. Whether they should is a question that probably has no single valid answer.

 

[Mad Jack]

Nope. That's a thing we like to call intellectual incest- an institution becoming so inbred with its own ideas and philosophy that it stagnates. It's a bad thing- education benefits from cross-pollination of ideas.

 

[Goro]

We see this in the PhD world as well. NIH likes people who leaves their post-doc institution and get a faculty job somewhere else.

Nope. That's a thing we like to call intellectual incest- an institution becoming so inbred with its own ideas and philosophy that it stagnates. It's a bad thing- education benefits from cross-pollination of ideas.

 

[deleted482591]

Nope. That's a thing we like to call intellectual incest- an institution becoming so inbred with its own ideas and philosophy that it stagnates. It's a bad thing- education benefits from cross-pollination of ideas.

I'm pretty sure this is 50x more relevant to undergrad research -> grad student -> postdoc than it is for "random undergrad major" -> medical school


"Intellectual incest" would have very little to do with an English major premed at X university going into X university's medical school unless he was VERY into medical school research AND ALSO conducted research associated with the medical school during undergrad.


That's probably why the MSAR shows top schools take an incredible amount of their undergrads.

 

[Glandzburg]

I'm pretty sure this is 50x more relevant to undergrad research -> grad student -> postdoc than it is for "random undergrad major" -> medical school


"Intellectual incest" would have very little to do with an English major premed at X university going into X university's medical school unless he was VERY into medical school research AND ALSO conducted research associated with the medical school during undergrad.


That's probably why the MSAR shows top schools take an incredible amount of their undergrads.

There is probably some bias in these numbers, where students are more likely to want to stay at their home institution that they are already familiar with.

 

[Spector1]

I think they ought to but the reality is often harsher than that.

 

[p0gono]

some do, some dont. Many medical schools act very independently and have little interaction/interchange with parent institution or associated schools

Which ones are very independent? Besides the obvious Baylor (ha).

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Nope. That's a thing we like to call intellectual incest- an institution becoming so inbred with its own ideas and philosophy that it stagnates. It's a bad thing- education benefits from cross-pollination of ideas.

*Ahem* HMS

 

[Mad Jack]

*Ahem* HMS

The question was "should they," not "do they."

 

[Mad Jack]

I'm pretty sure this is 50x more relevant to undergrad research -> grad student -> postdoc than it is for "random undergrad major" -> medical school


"Intellectual incest" would have very little to do with an English major premed at X university going into X university's medical school unless he was VERY into medical school research AND ALSO conducted research associated with the medical school during undergrad.


That's probably why the MSAR shows top schools take an incredible amount of their undergrads.

It's also about culture- if you're talking a large percentage of students from the undergrad institution, and a lot of medical school faculty are selected from medical school alums, eventually the culture of the medical school becomes more and more like that of the undergraduate institution. Then there's the whole "students from other schools being with them different undergrad research cultures and experiences" aspect. Of course, much of this doesn't apply to many top schools- they've got top notch research and culture, so importing from their own can provide a good frame of reference, particularly for those students coming from schools that were not as robust.

 

[njtrimed]

MSAR Online will tell you what % of matriculants are from the med school's UG campus. For example, Yale = 16%; SUNY SB = 15%; U FL = 51%!!!

To be fair, in my time at Stony Brook many years ago it seemed like half the school was pre-med and actually went to medical school. There were 30 people in my (very small) major and I think 25 matriculated to medical school and the other five went on to PhD programs. There were dozens of (if not over a hundred) biochem and biomedical engineering majors, many of whom maintained competitive GPAs. I remember there being a seemingly endless selection of TPR and Kaplan MCAT classes. My perception was that it was easier for SB students to get in elsewhere than at SB, but that could be incorrect.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

So, I heard two countering views from my friends. At some medical schools, going to their undergrad is the worst thing in the world if you want to attend their medical school because they want new faces. At other schools, excelling in the undergrad kind of is an audition for going to their medical school.

I don't think any med school "wants fresh faces" since every face will be fresh at the med school.

My experience has been that being at an undergrad gives you a lot more reasons to explain why you want to go to a given med school, and a leg to stand on when you say you understand "the culture".

So basically, they're not obligated to take care of their own, but often do by selection bias

 

[Officer Farva]

We see this in the PhD world as well. NIH likes people who leaves their post-doc institution and get a faculty job somewhere else.

Totally unrelated question to medicine. I met one or two professors who went to one undergrad, got either an MD or PhD at the same university, stayed on for a postdoc at the same place, and remained as faculty.

How are those guys viewed in the research world otherwise? I could never imagine being at the same place for so long.

 

[Mad Jack]

I don't think any med school "wants fresh faces" since every face will be fresh at the med school.

My experience has been that being at an undergrad gives you a lot more reasons to explain why you want to go to a given med school, and a leg to stand on when you say you understand "the culture".

So basically, they're not obligated to take care of their own, but often do by selection bias

They probably also get a disproportionate number of applications from their own undergraduates, which is something you should factor in. Like, look at Harvard- they get just over 6,000 apps, many of which you know are reaches, but have roughly 280-300 undergrads from Harvard that apply to medical school (the vast majority of which likely apply to HMS and are highly qualified and toward the upper end of the applicant pool). So if you've got around 4.8% or so of your applicant pool made up of Harvard students, but those students are at the top of the pile in relation to applicant competitiveness, having the 15% or so Harvard undergrad representation seems pretty reasonable actually.

I mean, most people attended undergrad where they saw themselves enjoying being, so if they wanted to be there once, they'll probably want to be there again, barring bad experiences. So I'm being it is not just a factor of bias with many schools, but also of self-selection.

 

[Officer Farva]

I don't think any med school "wants fresh faces" since every face will be fresh at the med school.

My experience has been that being at an undergrad gives you a lot more reasons to explain why you want to go to a given med school, and a leg to stand on when you say you understand "the culture".

So basically, they're not obligated to take care of their own, but often do by selection bias

I heard that might be the case with a lot of the top 20 private schools. I heard stories of highly competitive applicants who are rejected after the interview at their alma mater who have no problem getting into one or more of the other top 20 medical schools.

 

[The Knife & Gun Club]

I can only speak for my top 21 school...our med school takes a ton of people from the undergrad and isn't too ashamed of it.

It's much easier to know the quality of an applicant if you're familiar with the system

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

The question was "should they," not "do they."

I know. I just felt like mentioning HMS because their residency programs could certainly use some cross-pollination.

I realize it's off topic though.

 

[justadream]

I'm pretty sure this is 50x more relevant to undergrad research -> grad student -> postdoc than it is for "random undergrad major" -> medical school


"Intellectual incest" would have very little to do with an English major premed at X university going into X university's medical school unless he was VERY into medical school research AND ALSO conducted research associated with the medical school during undergrad.


That's probably why the MSAR shows top schools take an incredible amount of their undergrads.

I think the major is reason is because top med schools also tend to be associated with top undergraduate schools (e.g., HMS is associated with Harvard College, Stanford Med is associated with Stanford undergrad, etc.).

These top colleges has a disproportionate number of highly qualified applicants. If HMS was associated with [insert college ranked #2000 here], then I doubt HMS would be taking many of those students.

 

[chocoholicsoxfan]

Doesn't Duke interview all of its undergrads who apply?

 

[Goro]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. When I was in grad school, I would often see posts rise to faculty at my school. However, NIH makes it harder (not impossible) for these people to get grants, because they fear that the newly minted faculty Pis are still merely serving as glorified post-docs for their former PIs.

In strictly teaching roles, the roles are probably different.

Totally unrelated question to medicine. I met one or two professors who went to one undergrad, got either an MD or PhD at the same university, stayed on for a postdoc at the same place, and remained as faculty.

How are those guys viewed in the research world otherwise? I could never imagine being at the same place for so long.

 

[Gem91]

Depends upon the school. Brown definitely thinks so.

Are you referring specifically to PLME students? If so, can't the same can be said for every school with combined programs? Just wondering if there's also something else at play at Brown for traditional applicants.

 

[Goro]

I only go with what's in MSAR Online

Are you referring specifically to PLME students? If so, can't the same can be said for every school with combined programs? Just wondering if there's also something else at play at Brown for traditional applicants.

 

[Petrichor1]

So, I heard two countering views from my friends. At some medical schools, going to their undergrad is the worst thing in the world if you want to attend their medical school because they want new faces. At other schools, excelling in the undergrad kind of is an audition for going to their medical school.

good lol, I want new faces too haha 😛

 

[Med Ed]

For example, should Penn State Med go out of their way to help Penn State grads or should USC med look after USC grads?

Only if they aren't d-bags.

It's a good questions considering all of our significant investments into our college education.

Is it?

Is it?

 

[AvrgPreMedKid]

MSAR Online will tell you what % of matriculants are from the med school's UG campus. For example, Yale = 16%; SUNY SB = 15%; U FL = 51%!!!

I chose the wrong undergrad school...

 

[njtrimed]

I chose the wrong undergrad school...

Maybe, maybe not. That doesn't account for how many of their undergrads apply. If 1000 students apply and only 15 get in and matriculate, that's 1.5%.

 

[Officer Farva]

Only if they aren't d-bags.



Is it?

Is it?

Yup, I do think the associated medical school has some responsibility for taking closer looks at their own university students.

 

[Lucca]

Yup, I do think the associated medical school has some responsibility for taking closer looks at their own university students.

Why? Finances for both are almost always completely separate for one another. From a fiduciary perspective Med Schools don't owe their undergrad students anything unless admitted. Most elite undergrads are just elite because they are piggybacking off of the great success of the faculty and graduate departments anyway and their commitments to undergraduate education are variable.

I imagine if there is a name on a rec letter or experience that the adcom recognize because of personal or institutional connections then that can add an additional level of credibility to an application but I don't think there should be institutionally specific bias.

That being said, there is definitely some of that bias present in med admissions, especially MD/PhD admissions. Top MD/PhDs usually take their own undergrads over other undergrads at disproportionate rates. 25% of all Harvard Mudphudders went to Harvard undergrad (a significant proportion also come from MIT which, let's face it, is also closely tied with HMS, especially HMS' dual degree program) and 80% went to just 5 schools, Harvard's peer institutions (HYPSM). Stanford, JHU, Penn are all the same although none of them are as egregious offenders as Harvard (JHU has like 12% JHU students, Stanford like 15% Stanford, etc). It's odd because it has been my experience that most science faculty look down on attending the same institution for undergrad and PhD to some extent.

 

[Officer Farva]

Why? Finances for both are almost always completely separate for one another. From a fiduciary perspective Med Schools don't owe their undergrad students anything unless admitted. Most elite undergrads are just elite because they are piggybacking off of the great success of the faculty and graduate departments anyway and their commitments to undergraduate education are variable.

I imagine if there is a name on a rec letter or experience that the adcom recognize because of personal or institutional connections then that can add an additional level of credibility to an application but I don't think there should be institutionally specific bias.

That being said, there is definitely some of that bias present in med admissions, especially MD/PhD admissions. Top MD/PhDs usually take their own undergrads over other undergrads at disproportionate rates. 25% of all Harvard Mudphudders went to Harvard undergrad (a significant proportion also come from MIT which, let's face it, is also closely tied with HMS, especially HMS' dual degree program) and 80% went to just 5 schools, Harvard's peer institutions (HYPSM). Stanford, JHU, Penn are all the same although none of them are as egregious offenders as Harvard (JHU has like 12% JHU students, Stanford like 15% Stanford, etc). It's odd because it has been my experience that most science faculty look down on attending the same institution for undergrad and PhD to some extent.

I say this because my undergrad, while having not so good medical placement, has amazing graduate school placement (job placement too, but irrelevant here). The least prestigious graduate programs across different fields we send our grads to is typically to their own alma mater, which is amazing regardless. I am just surprised we don't see more uniformity like this.

 

[Lucca]

I say this because my undergrad, while having not so good medical placement, has amazing graduate school placement (job placement too, but irrelevant here). The least prestigious graduate programs across different fields we send our grads to is typically to their own alma mater, which is amazing regardless. I am just surprised we don't see more uniformity like this.

The question remains: why should there be

 

[Med Ed]

Yup, I do think the associated medical school has some responsibility for taking closer looks at their own university students.

No, I am pondering whether it truly is a good question to ask. I do not believe it is.

 

[piii]

I say this because my undergrad, while having not so good medical placement, has amazing graduate school placement (job placement too, but irrelevant here). The least prestigious graduate programs across different fields we send our grads to is typically to their own alma mater, which is amazing regardless. I am just surprised we don't see more uniformity like this.

Aw 🙁

 

[Med Ed]

The question remains: why should there be

Some, if not most, medical/law schools realize that accepting students from the home undergrad is beneficial to the long term success of the pre-professional programs. But no sane adcom will lower its standards over school ties.

 

[Officer Farva]

The question remains: why should there be

Because we paid money. Not saying that they accept 2.0/20s, but focus on people from the alma mater at least meeting the average.

 

[P0ke]

Just show them your YouTube channel, filthy frank. And then offer them a cake you baked.

 

[piii]

Because we paid money. Not saying that they accept 2.0/20s, but focus on people from the alma mater at least meeting the average.

You paid your med school tuition when you were in undergrad? Seems like a poor financial decision.

 

[Officer Farva]

You paid your med school tuition when you were in undergrad? Seems like a poor financial decision.

Just saying, it's not a good way to get those alumni donations 😉

 

[piii]

Just saying, it's not a good way to get those alumni donations 😉

Don't act like you would still donate if that's the case 😉

 

[P0ke]

They also have to consider if they'd rather take a less qualified student who went to their undergrad school vs a stellar applicant who is more likely to go into a lucrative specialty that will bring in lots of donation money.

 

[Med Ed]

Because we paid money. Not saying that they accept 2.0/20s, but focus on people from the alma mater at least meeting the average.

Familiarity breeds contempt.