Shutting down M3/M4 clinical rotations

Burrell College of Osteopathic Medicine
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Members do not see this ad.
Everything at my school got shut down (except for M1, we are moving to online instruction) m2s are in dedicated, m3/m4 rotations are cancelled due to a few students coming in contact with a resident who got coronavirus (They probably have it to but the school isn’t telling us) Very interesting times
 
premed_mamba said:
Everything at my school got shut down (except for M1, we are moving to online instruction) m2s are in dedicated, m3/m4 rotations are cancelled due to a few students coming in contact with a resident who got coronavirus (They probably have it to but the school isn’t telling us) Very interesting times
Click to expand...

Is this a US MD school?

I'm thinking about asking for temporary suspension of rotations.
 
I'm in WA state on my ED rotation right now. I'm loving it! I hope they don't shut it down. It's been fascinating. As med students, we're not allowed to see anyone with fever/SOB/cough. The residents and attendings are tied up with covid patients, so we're able to offload the work of noninfectious patients. I think it's working well so far (as well as it can, in a pandemic). And in a couple months, I'm going to be required to be at work come hell or high water, anyway. May as well start the work now.
 
parachichi said:
I'm in WA state on my ED rotation right now. I'm loving it! I hope they don't shut it down. It's been fascinating. As med students, we're not allowed to see anyone with fever/SOB/cough. The residents and attendings are tied up with covid patients, so we're able to offload the work of noninfectious patients. I think it's working well so far (as well as it can, in a pandemic). And in a couple months, I'm going to be required to be at work come hell or high water, anyway. May as well start the work now.
Click to expand...

Except the "non infectious patients" can be carriers of covid since we know that covid can be asymptommatic for up to 2 weeks.

This is a public health issue, not an issue of whether this is a fun experience for you.
 
7331poas said:
Except the "non infectious patients" can be carriers of covid since we know that covid can be asymptommatic for up to 2 weeks.

This is a public health issue, not an issue of whether this is a fun experience for you.
Click to expand...
I guess this is a question of who is "essential" and "nonessential," and that looks different everywhere. I feel like the medical students here are well trained to be contributing members of the care team, and our hospitals are bursting at the seams right now, so we need all hands on deck. Everyone is taking appropriate precautions (an abundance of appropriate precautions).
 
My state just had its first Coronavirus death in the hospital I had my EM rotation at a month ago and my school still has us on rotations lol.
 
parachichi said:
I guess this is a question of who is "essential" and "nonessential," and that looks different everywhere. I feel like the medical students here are well trained to be contributing members of the care team, and our hospitals are bursting at the seams right now, so we need all hands on deck. Everyone is taking appropriate precautions (an abundance of appropriate precautions).
Click to expand...

There is no region of the united states where medical students are so "well trained" that they can do the job better than the attendings, residents, and nurses who are already there.
 
7331poas said:
There is no region of the united states where medical students are so "well trained" that they can do the job better than the attendings, residents, and nurses who are already there.
Click to expand...
And by that, med students still have no power to do anything.
 
7331poas said:
There is no region of the united states where medical students are so "well trained" that they can do the job better than the attendings, residents, and nurses who are already there.
Click to expand...
there is literally no one saying that. He/she said that they are helping with the tasks that need to be done in the department.
 
Last edited:
libertyyne said:
there is literally no one saying that. He/she said that they are helping with the tasks that need to be done in the department.
Click to expand...

Ok. Then call in the nurse. Why have a medical student there?

There are no good arguments about why we need to be sending M3s into the emergency department. none.
 
7331poas said:
Ok. Then call in the nurse. Why have a medical student there?

There are no good arguments about why we need to be sending M3s into the emergency department. none.
Click to expand...
Ah that poster is saying they are using medical students to help the team out. So literally someone found a way to integrate medical students into the team to help the department out. And i dont know if you have been in many disaster responses, but literally every body in the hospital can be useful or made useful. There isnt an infinte supply of support staff or nurses either.
 
libertyyne said:
Ah that poster is saying they are using medical students to help the team out. So literally someone found a way to integrate medical students into the team to help the department out. And i dont know if you have been in many disaster responses, but literally every body in the hospital can be useful or made useful. There isnt an infinte supply of support staff or nurses either.
Click to expand...

This exactly. M3s and M4s are at least trained to work in a hospital system and have spent much of their recent time learning how to learn. It's not that we're going to do any job better than the attending, residents, nurses, respiratory techs or MAs. But we can be trained to do some work, and we can do that better than nobody filling that role, which is where we're potentially headed soon. Because it's not just the number of patients that's going to make us shorthanded - as soon as medical staff start to get infected and forced to self quarantine, the number of available trained professionals is going to start plummeting.
 
libertyyne said:
Ah that poster is saying they are using medical students to help the team out. So literally someone found a way to integrate medical students into the team to help the department out. And i dont know if you have been in many disaster responses, but literally every body in the hospital can be useful or made useful. There isnt an infinte supply of support staff or nurses either.
Click to expand...
Clearly that poster is not from an area that has had a natural disaster it seems.

Day one of Ms1 we were told about how students came in and stayed at the hospital during winter storms, prolonged summer blackouts, hurricane sandy, 9/11 etc etc and it was made very clear to us that we had a duty should help be needed

There simply is not an unlimited supply of staff and students help fill that gap
 
7331poas said:
Except the "non infectious patients" can be carriers of covid since we know that covid can be asymptommatic for up to 2 weeks.

This is a public health issue, not an issue of whether this is a fun experience for you.
Click to expand...

Yes exactly.
Plus the concern of running out of supplies.
And students are great and I love to teach, but it can certainly be a burden.
Everyone is already anxious and stressed out and teaching does add something additional to our plate.
I'm not saying that students shouldn't be disappointed if their rotations get cancelled, but everyone should be absolutely understanding that most places are doing the best they can with the current situation that changes day by day. So please understand if you're asked to go home.
 
I don’t think the argument is whether medical students can be helpful or not, any medical professional/student can be helpful to a certain degree. However, Like anything in a disaster situation such as this, decisions are largely based on a risk benefit analysis (I.e. shutting down business to stop spread of diseases but also dealing with a declining economy and shortage of services available to the public)

In the case of med students, one argument that can be made is if the benefit of the help a med student can provide (however marginal or extensive) is worth the risk of the student contracting the disease and spreading it when they go home (even worse if they live on student housing and infect a whole boat load of other students). I would argue in that sense, it is not worth having med students there which can in many ways worsen a situation.

I also don’t believe a residents value is comparable to that of a med student, but I would say that if the situation becomes so dire that the benefit of having all hands on deck is so great it outweighs the risk of a med student infecting others then we have a tipping of the risk benefit see saw and we should get students on board.
 
libertyyne said:
Ah that poster is saying they are using medical students to help the team out. So literally someone found a way to integrate medical students into the team to help the department out. And i dont know if you have been in many disaster responses, but literally every body in the hospital can be useful or made useful. There isnt an infinte supply of support staff or nurses either.
Click to expand...

A volunteer from the local church can replace a medical student. The hospital's need for labor does not trump my risk of infection. If I am so valuable for the hospital, why am I spending 70k per year for the privilege?
 
7331poas said:
A volunteer from the local church can replace a medical student. The hospital's need for labor does not trump my risk of infection. If I am so valuable for the hospital, why am I spending 70k per year for the privilege?
Click to expand...
Ah, so here is the truth. You do not wish to take the risk. Thats fine, but dont paint it like we cant be useful to our communities and hospital systems or patients especially in times of emergency and national disaster, even more so than some random church volunteer.

Some of us hold a different views on the privilege of training and the risks that come along side it. As well as on the oaths that some of us took upon entering.
 
kb1900 said:
Clearly that poster is not from an area that has had a natural disaster it seems.

Day one of Ms1 we were told about how students came in and stayed at the hospital during winter storms, prolonged summer blackouts, hurricane sandy, 9/11 etc etc and it was made very clear to us that we had a duty should help be needed

There simply is not an unlimited supply of staff and students help fill that gap
Click to expand...

And remember, many students had prior careers in healthcare or at least some experience and are willing to help!
 
In all seriousness do you guys really think that an average med student will be helpful in the hospital if they don't have someone to teach them and supervise them? I mean legally we need supervision? what do you guys think you're gonna do? grab a blanket? run errands?
 
MerYangBey said:
In all seriousness do you guys really think that an average med student will be helpful in the hospital if they don't have someone to teach them and supervise them? I mean legally we need supervision? what do you guys think you're gonna do? grab a blanket? run errands?
Click to expand...
There are patients lined up in the ED, in the hallways, outside in tents, your system is overrun, half of your nursing staff and physician staff and resident staff are out on 14 days quarantine. Do you think you could be useful ?
 
popopopop said:
And remember, many students had prior careers in healthcare or at least some experience and are willing to help!
Click to expand...

Yeah, I still have an active RN license. Maybe I could make some money if rotations get cancelled? Lol. But seriously I think we do provide service to our patients. Obviously we don’t replace a doctor or nurse. And we need to continue our training in general let alone the pandemic.
 
West coast DO student chiming in. We’ve had a couple of our clinical rotations sites suspend med student rotations until further notice. These are big sites for us too, with core rotations in IM and Psych. We don’t have our own teaching hospital. Meanwhile, our school’s leadership is maintaining that we are valuable members of the healthcare team, and that this is what we do. Unfortunately, the clinical sites seem to think we’re more of a liability than anything. I have a feeling the tides will start to turn when the sites start dropping like flies. Personally, I do believe we can be made useful. However, moving from site to site each month, and our relative naivety might make us a greater risk than benefit to the patients, and ultimately, they come first.
 
libertyyne said:
Ah, so here is the truth. You do not wish to take the risk. Thats fine, but dont paint it like we cant be useful to our communities and hospital systems or patients especially in times of emergency and national disaster, even more so than some random church volunteer.

Some of us hold a different views on the privilege of training and the risks that come along side it. As well as on the oaths that some of us took upon entering.
Click to expand...

I have seen superstar neurosurg applicant students on my rotations. They were never actually *useful* on the team compared to what an attending could have done by himself.

popopopop said:
And remember, many students had prior careers in healthcare or at least some experience and are willing to help!
Click to expand...

Great! I totally agree, pay those students of their labor then if they are so valuable.
 
7331poas said:
I have seen superstar neurosurg applicant students on my rotations. They were never actually *useful* on the team compared to what an attending could have done by himself.



Great! I totally agree, pay those students of their labor then if they are so valuable.
Click to expand...
You keep saying that medical students are claiming to be as useful as an attending. Literally no one in this thread has ever said that. Keep on building those strawmans and knocking them down.
You dont want to take the risk, and literally no one here is advocating to force you to take a risk that you are uncomfortable with. But some of us are willing to take the risk if our communities need us.
 
libertyyne said:
There are patients lined up in the ED, in the hallways, outside in tents, your system is overrun, half of your nursing staff and physician staff and resident staff are out on 14 days quarantine. Do you think you could be useful ?
Click to expand...

This. We aren't going to be helpful from day 1 and no one is saying that. We are the practice squad QB's who get called up when there are no other rungs left on the ladder.

To think we wouldn't be more useful than some rando from a church in the face of an entire system collapse, as you describe above, is ridiculous. At least I can skim through a study, have some sort of baseline knowledge of what is going on, and then make an educated guess of what to do.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
This. We aren't going to be helpful from day 1 and no one is saying that. We are the practice squad QB's who get called up when there are no other rungs left on the ladder.

To think we wouldn't be more useful than some rando from a church in the face of an entire system collapse, as you describe above, is ridiculous. At least I can skim through a study, have some sort of baseline knowledge of what is going on, and then make an educated guess of what to do.
Click to expand...
I'm wondering in what capacity you think we could function? Like assessing patients? treating them? like what exactly could we legally do that an attending wouldn't need to "redo" or supervise. Let's assume hospital systems aren't collapsing for this scenario. Let's assume they're at capacity and they have adequate hired staff.

In an apocalypse situation where half the doctors and nurses are on sick leave. Then the brave MS4 steps in. Okay let's say we could be useful then. Maybe we could get a quick medical license online.
 
MerYangBey said:
I'm wondering in what capacity you think we could function? Like assessing patients? treating them? like what exactly could we legally do that an attending wouldn't need to "redo" or supervise. Let's assume hospital systems aren't collapsing for this scenario. Let's assume they're at capacity and they have adequate hired staff.

In an apocalypse situation where half the doctors and nurses are on sick leave. Then the brave MS4 steps in. Okay let's say we could be useful then. Maybe we could get a quick medical license online.
Click to expand...
do you think there is a massive difference between an m4 and an intern?
What about an NP with an online degree and an M4 ?
Do you think we could staff patients?
assess patients and generate basic plans for the attending to check off on ?
put in basic orders for our attening ?
start a line if there arent enough nurses?
how about close small wounds?
do you think we have learned nothing in the time we have spent on rotations?

There is literally no senario in an infectious disease pandemic that is currently spreading like wildfire through our population where staffing would remain adequate.
 
7331poas said:
I have seen superstar neurosurg applicant students on my rotations. They were never actually *useful* on the team compared to what an attending could have done by himself.
Click to expand...

There is a lot you can do as an M3/4 to be concretely useful and speed up your team. You can write/update discharge summaries, call consults, set up follow-up appointments, follow up on lab/culture/imaging results from an outside hospital, take care of ~50% of nursing questions to save your resident from needing to deal with it, etc.
 
libertyyne said:
do you think there is a massive difference between an m4 and an intern?
What about an NP with an online degree and an M4 ?
Do you think we could staff patients?
assess patients and generate basic plans for the attending to check off on ?
put in basic orders for our attening ?
start a line if there arent enough nurses?
how about close small wounds?
do you think we have learned nothing in the time we have spent on rotations?

There is literally no senario in an infectious disease pandemic that is currently spreading like wildfire through our population where staffing would remain adequate.
Click to expand...
I don't want to disagree with you. I'm curious what an attending has to say about MS3-4 usefulness during a pandemic.
 
MerYangBey said:
Let's assume hospital systems aren't collapsing for this scenario. Let's assume they're at capacity and they have adequate hired staff.
Click to expand...

Then we aren't needed end of story.
MerYangBey said:
In an apocalypse situation where half the doctors and nurses are on sick leave. Then the brave MS4 steps in. Okay let's say we could be useful then. Maybe we could get a quick medical license online.
Click to expand...

No need for a medical license. Medical students have been used in pandemics before, I.e. Spanish flu, and we have insurance provided by our school. This type of thing is literally something that no one living has witnessed before, regular rules don't apply in this disaster scenario. I mean, do you really not think an M4 can't create a basic plan as well as a new intern? Not all hospitalized patients will be critical care patients in need of a vent. Do you not think an M4, in the event of severe physician and resident shortages, could create plans and round on the ones who are in the hospital needing some more basic forms of O2 support? Perhaps the younger patients without significant comorbities?

This "apocalypse" situation is literally playing out in Italy right now, or getting to that point.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Then we aren't needed end of story.


No need for a medical license. Medical students have been used in pandemics before, I.e. Spanish flu, and we have insurance provided by our school. This type of thing is literally something that no one living has witnessed before, regular rules don't apply in this disaster scenario. I mean, do you really not think an M4 can't create a basic plan as well as a new intern? Not all hospitalized patients will be critical care patients in need of a vent. Do you not think an M4, in the event of severe physician and resident shortages, could create plans and round on the ones who are in the hospital needing some more basic forms of O2 support? Perhaps the younger patients without significant comorbities?

This "apocalypse" situation is literally playing out in Italy right now, or getting to that point.
Click to expand...
We aren't in the same age as the spanish flu lol. What percentage of doctors got sued during that time? I get what you're saying but our current medical system gradually took away more and more autonomy from medical students. A lot of people complain about how their rotations are glorified shadowing and how they have little access to procedures. Maybe this pandemic will make med students useful again.
As an MS4 i feel comfortable creating a basic plan for patients and rounding on patients yes. So in a scenario where the resident team was taken out, then yes MS4s could be useful.
 
Honestly I don’t understand how people have no pride as med students. Especially if you’re pretty much done with m3

there is seriously something wrong with YOUR education and role if you can’t realize how you would contribute after 6-18 months on the floors. I could field and filter 85% of my residents pages, transport patients, call consults, triage/take histories, fullfill nursing duties, place ivs/foleys/ngts, get labs, eyeball/babysit the critical patients who can get an ICU bed yet...I could go on and on

If you genuinely think that you are more risk than benefit to your hospital system and community, so be it. There is a reasonable argument to be made about acting as a vector or not wanting to take on risk/burden of infection yourself. But don’t conflate that with being undertrained or useless unless you truly have no clinical skills or don’t know how a hospital works yet
 
kb1900 said:
Honestly I don’t understand how people have no pride as med students. Especially if you’re pretty much done with m3

there is seriously something wrong with YOUR education and role if you can’t realize how you would contribute after 6-18 months on the floors. I could field and filter 85% of my residents pages, transport patients, call consults, triage/take histories, fullfill nursing duties, place ivs/foleys/ngts, get labs, eyeball/babysit the critical patients who can get an ICU bed yet...I could go on and on

If you genuinely think that you are more risk than benefit to your hospital system and community, so be it. There is a reasonable argument to be made about acting as a vector or not wanting to take on risk/burden of infection yourself. But don’t conflate that with being undertrained or useless unless you truly have no clinical skills or don’t know how a hospital works yet
Click to expand...
Medical schools are pulling their medical students. The actual school decided that hey we think these med students are more of a liability than anything. So it's not just me. My point was about autonomy and legal aspect of med student autonomy.
 
kb1900 said:
Honestly I don’t understand how people have no pride as med students. Especially if you’re pretty much done with m3

there is seriously something wrong with YOUR education and role if you can’t realize how you would contribute after 6-18 months on the floors. I could field and filter 85% of my residents pages, transport patients, call consults, triage/take histories, fullfill nursing duties, place ivs/foleys/ngts, get labs, eyeball/babysit the critical patients who can get an ICU bed yet...I could go on and on

If you genuinely think that you are more risk than benefit to your hospital system and community, so be it. There is a reasonable argument to be made about acting as a vector or not wanting to take on risk/burden of infection yourself. But don’t conflate that with being undertrained or useless unless you truly have no clinical skills or don’t know how a hospital works yet
Click to expand...
If I actively started placing IVs and Foley and doing nursing stuff I would get verbally annihilated on some of my rotations lol.
 
kb1900 said:
Clearly that poster is not from an area that has had a natural disaster it seems.

Day one of Ms1 we were told about how students came in and stayed at the hospital during winter storms, prolonged summer blackouts, hurricane sandy, 9/11 etc etc and it was made very clear to us that we had a duty should help be needed

There simply is not an unlimited supply of staff and students help fill that gap
Click to expand...

Notice how nowhere in the events you mentioned does it say that students served as incubator of a highly contagious and potentially fatal disease?
 
Dr.Bruh said:
If I actively started placing IVs and Foley and doing nursing stuff I would get verbally annihilated on some of my rotations lol.
Click to expand...
Then maybe it’s just a nyc thing because half my patients don’t even get their AM labs on time unless someone from my team draws them at 5am

MerYangBey said:
Medical schools are pulling their medical students. The actual school decided that hey we think these med students are more of a liability than anything. So it's not just me. My point was about autonomy and legal aspect of med student autonomy.
Click to expand...

I have no doubt that you are right and that is the driving reason schools stop rotations. And I am not opposed to stopping rotations either.

My post is about the inevitable time when hospitals become short staffed and this fellow medical student is suggesting a church volunteer would be better to call in than a m3.....
 
MerYangBey said:
We aren't in the same age as the spanish flu lol. What percentage of doctors got sued during that time? I get what you're saying but our current medical system gradually took away more and more autonomy from medical students. A lot of people complain about how their rotations are glorified shadowing and how they have little access to procedures. Maybe this pandemic will make med students useful again.
As an MS4 i feel comfortable creating a basic plan for patients and rounding on patients yes. So in a scenario where the resident team was taken out, then yes MS4s could be useful.
Click to expand...

We have literally never had a pandemic of this magnitude during the lifetime of anyone alive. Neither MERS, SARS, or Ebola was close to what we are currently experiencing with this very rapid spread of such an infectious novel organism. You keep making up your own scenarios that aren't close what we are saying. In the event that healthcare providers start dropping like flies and have to go into quarantine med students will likely be expected to fill a role of some sort.

kb1900 said:
I have no doubt that you are right and that is the driving reason schools stop rotations. And I am not opposed to stopping rotations either.

My post is about the inevitable time when hospitals become short staffed and this fellow medical student is suggesting a church volunteer would be better to call in than a m3.....
Click to expand...

This.
 
kb1900 said:
Then maybe it’s just a nyc thing because half my patients don’t even get their AM labs on time unless someone from my team draws them at 5am



I have no doubt that you are right and that is the driving reason schools stop rotations. And I am not opposed to stopping rotations either.

My post is about the inevitable time when hospitals become short staffed and this fellow medical student is suggesting a church volunteer would be better to call in than a m3.....
Click to expand...
I have to say you do sound like a much better med student than i currently am lol. Made me feel slightly inadequate.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
We have literally never had a pandemic of this magnitude during the lifetime of anyone alive. Neither MERS, SARS, or Ebola was close to what we are currently experiencing with this very rapid spread of such an infectious novel organism. You keep making up your own scenarios that aren't close what we are saying. In the event that healthcare providers start dropping like flies and have to go into quarantine med students will likely be expected to fill a role of some sort.



This.
Click to expand...
You're right I have yet to read about any place in the US where health providers are dropping like flies. I hope we don't get to that point. But if we do. Sign me up. MS4 ready for duty. I expect to make minimum wage so i can afford toilet paper.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

mtsapko
  • Poll Poll
Transition from preclinical to clinical (M2 to M3)
Replies
8
Views
2K
eteshoe
eteshoe
S
MD & DO What makes a student successful during their clinical rotations?
Replies
1
Views
854
J_doc1
J_doc1
Lifeblood_20
MD Bottom quartile for M3 grades, feeling down
Replies
13
Views
4K
Splenda88
S
C
Questions for M3/M4 Students
Replies
9
Views
2K
pierty
pierty
kinnencan
  • Solved
Manic episode advice M3
2
Replies
78
Views
10K
GoSpursGo
GoSpursGo
Top