Simple question about Listerine

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phoenixsupra

phoenixsupra

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I was just studying my step 2 stuff and was dutifully memorizing various factoids about Ca. when I actually had a thought. Alcohol is a risk factor for oral cancer, and Listerine is 20% alcohol by volume. What are the chances of getting oral cancer from a regular daily rinse with the stuff?
 
phoenixsupra said:
I was just studying my step 2 stuff and was dutifully memorizing various factoids about Ca. when I actually had a thought. Alcohol is a risk factor for oral cancer, and Listerine is 20% alcohol by volume. What are the chances of getting oral cancer from a regular daily rinse with the stuff?
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Tell you what, why don't you do a randomized controlled trial and get back to us?
 
phoenixsupra said:
I was just studying my step 2 stuff and was dutifully memorizing various factoids about Ca. when I actually had a thought. Alcohol is a risk factor for oral cancer, and Listerine is 20% alcohol by volume. What are the chances of getting oral cancer from a regular daily rinse with the stuff?
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There is a flaw in your reasoning Phoenix....

Now the factoid you were learning most probably does not imply a DIRECT causation of oral cancer. I think most likely if you looked up the research itself, it would probably suggest an ASSOCIATION. Not to say that a direct causation is ruled out completely, but still...

Now with listerine, if you do what everyone does, you probably swill it around spit it out...On the other hand, if you happened to drink it after swilling around, it might be a totally different thing altogether... :laugh: :laugh:
 
quant said:
There is a flaw in your reasoning Phoenix....

Now the factoid you were learning most probably does not imply a DIRECT causation of oral cancer. I think most likely if you looked up the research itself, it would probably suggest an ASSOCIATION. Not to say that a direct causation is ruled out completely, but still...

Now with listerine, if you do what everyone does, you probably swill it around spit it out...On the other hand, if you happened to drink it after swilling around, it might be a totally different thing altogether... :laugh: :laugh:
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Well, I'm assuming it's a direct action seeing that the association between etoh and Ca is for mouth, pharyngeal, esophageal and stomach and preciousl little else other than that big brown organ that metabolizes the stuff. What's that one called again? (kidding). Really, is the association between alcohol and oral ca due to local action or is it believed to be a systemic infiltration phenomenon. If so then why not an association between alcohol and other mucousal cancers??

yaah, is always telling me that pathologists "educate" other doctors. So, I'm holding him to his word. Go on, pathologists, educate me. 😀
 
Drinking and smoking are associated, and smoking and oral cancer are highly related. Thus, a lot of the relationship may be due to concurrent smoking.

I hadn't heard of a direct association between alcohol and oral cancer. There is a relationship between it and esophageal cancer - possibly from vitamin deficiencies and recurrent vomiting which can cause a lot of irritation.
 
phoenixsupra said:
Well, I'm assuming it's a direct action seeing that the association between etoh and Ca is for mouth, pharyngeal, esophageal and stomach and preciousl little else other than that big brown organ that metabolizes the stuff. What's that one called again? (kidding). Really, is the association between alcohol and oral ca due to local action or is it believed to be a systemic infiltration phenomenon. If so then why not an association between alcohol and other mucousal cancers??

yaah, is always telling me that pathologists "educate" other doctors. So, I'm holding him to his word. Go on, pathologists, educate me. 😀
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Ah the key word is "Assuming" a direct action....

Secondly if my memory serves me right, the link between alcohol and gastric cancers is tenuous at best.....if any!

Which other mucosal cancers were you referring to?
 
yaah said:
Drinking and smoking are associated, and smoking and oral cancer are highly related. Thus, a lot of the relationship may be due to concurrent smoking.
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Yeah, I know what that means. But aren't you guys supposed to be knowledgable in molecular level pathophysiology? C'mon yaah, at least talk about some molecules 🙄

yaah said:
I hadn't heard of a direct association between alcohol and oral cancer. There is a relationship between it and esophageal cancer - possibly from vitamin deficiencies and recurrent vomiting which can cause a lot of irritation.
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Yeah, the barrets esphogus progression. That was in the ol' "step 2 secrets" book too. But there's also a link between etoh and mouth cancer. Don't tell me you're just learning this now from a surgeon who read it earlier in a review book. I'm getting a little scared now. 😱
 
quant said:
Ah the key word is "Assuming" a direct action....

Secondly if my memory serves me right, the link between alcohol and gastric cancers is tenuous at best.....if any!

Which other mucosal cancers were you referring to?
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Also you need to keep in mind the "Duration" of exposure phoenix.....30 secs of swilling listerine would not constitute what one would say a prolonged exposure.
As yaah mentioned, prolonged exposure over years and concurrent risk factors probably play a huge role....malnutrition,genetics and a bunch of other things....
 
quant said:
Ah the key word is "Assuming" a direct action....

Secondly if my memory serves me right, the link between alcohol and gastric cancers is tenuous at best.....if any!

Which other mucosal cancers were you referring to?
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Yes, here's how it goes.

step one - make an assumption.

step two - ask a pathologist

That's what yaah led me to believe anyway. Was he wrong? I thought you guys had all this stuff in your memories or something. So are we saying that we don't have the foggiest idea why etoh causes mouth cancer, then?
 
quant said:
Also you need to keep in mind the "Duration" of exposure phoenix.....30 secs of swilling listerine would not constitute what one would say a prolonged exposure.
As yaah mentioned, prolonged exposure over years and concurrent risk factors probably play a huge role....malnutrition,genetics and a bunch of other things....
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What if it's twice a day. Over a lifetime that's quite a lot of exposure. Probably comparable to many drinkers. But just so I've got this straight, you're sayin' you don't know, right?
 
phoenixsupra said:
So are we saying that we don't have the foggiest idea why etoh causes mouth cancer, then?
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I dont claim to be an expert of any kinds....but only the most cocksure doctor or a research scientist would lay claim to knowing THE causative reason for ANY KIND of cancer....

Its scary, but true....

Why do you think after more than 5 decades of research we still have begun to scratch the molecular mechanisms of cancer pathogenesis....
 
phoenixsupra said:
But just so I've got this straight, you're sayin' you don't know, right?
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Absolutely.....But as i said earlier only the most stupid doctor/scientist would say that he KNOWS.... 🙂
 
Well, some cancers are clearly linked - Vinyl Chloride and Angiosarcoma, HPV and Cervical cancer. But most others are known to be linked but the exact mechanism isn't entirely known. Plus, nearly everyone with one risk factor is also going to have another. How do you know that alcohol is the one causing the cancer?

Here you go, I googled it:

Alcohol use The majority of patients with oral cancer (75 to 80 percent) use alcohol frequently. Paired with tobacco use, patients who drink and smoke increase their risk of developing oral cancer even more. Researchers have found that alcohol increases the penetration of DNA-damaging chemicals in the lining of the oral cavity and oropharynx, according to the American Cancer Society

And: Alcohol-containing mouthwash Some studies have shown that mouthwash with alcohol content increases the risk for oral cancer. In addition, other studies have shown that smokers and people who drink alcohol tend to use mouthwash more often, linking all three factors together.

However, poor nutrition and chronic irritation are also both risk factors, both of which are associated with alcohol use.

Supra, very few things in medicine are clear cut! :laugh:

Pathologists don't always have all the answers.
 
quant said:
Absolutely.....But as i said earlier only the most stupid doctor/scientist would say that he KNOWS.... 🙂
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I totally agree. 🙂 👍 Notice, I'm not afraid to ask an out there question about Listerine and mouth cancer 😉
 
phoenixsupra said:
I totally agree. 🙂 👍 Notice, I'm not afraid to ask an out there question about Listerine and mouth cancer 😉
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You ve got all the hallmarks of being a super scientist!!!.....
As someone earlier on this forum said (Yaah?)....

There are no stupid questions....only silly people.... :laugh:

Hey Hey Hey.....Andy is off for a day and we are discussing medicine....we need you back, ANDYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
yaah said:
And: Alcohol-containing mouthwash Some studies have shown that mouthwash with alcohol content increases the risk for oral cancer.
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Thanks yaah. Makes sense. It's not like oral mucousa is much of a solubility barrier for alcohol, is it now?

I think I'll bring my medical questions here in future. 😀 👍
 
phoenixsupra said:
Thanks yaah. Makes sense. It's not like oral mucousa is much of a solubility barrier for alcohol, is it now?

I think I'll bring my medical questions here in future. 😀 👍
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We can also help with other burning questions, such as:

1) How on earth can Vin Diesel be a successful actor?

2) What is the best way to spend your time on a weekend?

and 3) If you have only $5 to spend, how should you spend it?
 
yaah said:
We can also help with other burning questions, such as:

1) How on earth can Vin Diesel be a successful actor?
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brawn..... the opium of the masses, made the asses....

yaah said:
2) What is the best way to spend your time on a weekend?
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slumberland...im quite sleep deprived right now...

yaah said:
and 3) If you have only $5 to spend, how should you spend it?
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2 boxes of oreo cookies.....they are evil, i tell ya...they are. But WHAT an evil!... :laugh:
 
deschutes said:
Will you eat the stufin' and save me the cookie?
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i gulp em down deschutes....sometimes 2 at a time.....but i might make an exception for you.... :laugh:
 
deschutes said:
How is that anatomically possible?
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I tell you honestly and you must try this....try putting in 3 oreo's at the same time(even 2 will do...) and crunch and munch till you have your cheeks filling out.....

I tell you it tastes much better than eating one at a time....

Mind you, i eat only oreo's this way......(gluttonous oreo pig?)..... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

OK gulp was probably a bad choice of word.....
 
Alcohol-containing mouthwashes and oral cancer. Critical analysis of literature.
Med Oral. 2004 Mar-Apr;9(2):120-3, 116-20. Review. English, Spanish.


Here you go--two languages and everything.
 
bananaface said:
Excellent work! 🙂

*hands baoflex a cookie*
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Thanks banana, virtual cookies are just the type of positive reinforcement us lurkers need to become more frequent contributors.
 
deschutes said:
Back to the original topic -

The real question is: do you brush before you floss, or floss before brush?
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I brush before I floss. Though I read somewhere that it is better to floss before brushing. I don't know why one would be better than the other. I also don't know why I do it the opposite way. :laugh:
 
I just got into a conversation about this the other day - apparently a friend of mine asked her dentist this very question, and the dentist said to floss after brushing. However, she also said that the dentist said the act of flossing was the important thing, not necessarily the order.
 
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