Simple Solution to the Death Penalty Problem: BIS!

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coprolalia

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You know, I'm listening to the radio and watching the news today, and there's all this bidness about the death penalty being "cruel and unusual" punishment.

😱 WHAT!???!

Dude sits in the chair, gets 3 grams of thiopental, exactly 1.00 craploads of pancuronium, and then a big slugh of KCl. What's cruel and unusual about that?

"Well," critics argue, "if the Pentothal goes sub-q instead of IV, you have an awake person who is paralyzed and choking, and then gets a big burning shot of potassium before it's lights-out."

EASY SOLUTION TO THIS ONE, BOYS AND GIRLS: Bi-Spectral Index monitoring!

Think about it, isn't this just the kind of publicity Aspect medical needs? I think so! You can definitively say that the prisoner is asleep before you paralyze them then kill them with potassium. You can also then tell your patients that you'll be using "the same cool and high-tech monitor that executioners use to ensure that the person's asleep when they kill someone." I'm sure this will put patients mind at ease.

So, what do you guys think? Sure, we can continue to use cheap, 1950's concoctions administered by someone with no medical training. The BiS will make it fool-proof. Problem solved! Now pay me a million dollars!

😍:laugh::idea:😕😱🙄😡😛

-copro
 
I 'll personally do the procedure for $500,000.....

Cop...I just outbid you.
 
You know, I'm listening to the radio and watching the news today, and there's all this bidness about the death penalty being "cruel and unusual" punishment.

😱 WHAT!???!

Dude sits in the chair, gets 3 grams of thiopental, exactly 1.00 craploads of pancuronium, and then a big slugh of KCl. What's cruel and unusual about that?

"Well," critics argue, "if the Pentothal goes sub-q instead of IV, you have an awake person who is paralyzed and choking, and then gets a big burning shot of potassium before it's lights-out."

EASY SOLUTION TO THIS ONE, BOYS AND GIRLS: Bi-Spectral Index monitoring!

Think about it, isn't this just the kind of publicity Aspect medical needs? I think so! You can definitively say that the prisoner is asleep before you paralyze them then kill them with potassium. You can also then tell your patients that you'll be using "the same cool and high-tech monitor that executioners use to ensure that the person's asleep when they kill someone." I'm sure this will put patients mind at ease.

So, what do you guys think? Sure, we can continue to use cheap, 1950's concoctions administered by someone with no medical training. The BiS will make it fool-proof. Problem solved! Now pay me a million dollars!

😍:laugh::idea:😕😱🙄😡😛

-copro

BFFHAHAHWHAHAHA
 
Too late. Already been done.

NEJM
Volume 354:2525-2527 June 15, 2006 Number 24

New Technology, Old Dilemma — Monitoring EEG Activity during Executions

Robert Steinbrook, M.D

On April 21, 2006, Willie Brown, Jr., was executed by lethal injection in North Carolina for the 1983 killing of a convenience-store clerk. The execution might have received little attention if not for the fact that Brown's electroencephalogram (EEG) was monitored during the procedure. This apparently unprecedented monitoring was a response to concern that some inmates have not been properly anesthetized during executions by lethal injection and may therefore have experienced painful deaths that violated the constitutional ban on cruel and unusual punishment.1,2

The EEG device used during Brown's execution was a bispectral index (BIS) monitor. Made by Aspect Medical . . .

Aspect was really pissed prisons ordered the BIS for executions. Seems the prisons didnt exactly come out and say, "We're going to use this when we kill some no-good bastard who deserves to die a much more painful death..."
 
Too late. Already been done.

NEJM
Volume 354:2525-2527 June 15, 2006 Number 24

New Technology, Old Dilemma — Monitoring EEG Activity during Executions

Robert Steinbrook, M.D

On April 21, 2006, Willie Brown, Jr., was executed by lethal injection in North Carolina for the 1983 killing of a convenience-store clerk. The execution might have received little attention if not for the fact that Brown's electroencephalogram (EEG) was monitored during the procedure. This apparently unprecedented monitoring was a response to concern that some inmates have not been properly anesthetized during executions by lethal injection and may therefore have experienced painful deaths that violated the constitutional ban on cruel and unusual punishment.1,2

The EEG device used during Brown's execution was a bispectral index (BIS) monitor. Made by Aspect Medical . . .

Aspect was really pissed prisons ordered the BIS for executions. Seems the prisons didnt exactly come out and say, "We're going to use this when we kill some no-good bastard who deserves to die a much more painful death..."


BWHWHWHAHAHAH
 
Too late. Already been done.

NEJM
Volume 354:2525-2527 June 15, 2006 Number 24

New Technology, Old Dilemma — Monitoring EEG Activity during Executions

Robert Steinbrook, M.D

On April 21, 2006, Willie Brown, Jr., was executed by lethal injection in North Carolina for the 1983 killing of a convenience-store clerk. The execution might have received little attention if not for the fact that Brown's electroencephalogram (EEG) was monitored during the procedure. This apparently unprecedented monitoring was a response to concern that some inmates have not been properly anesthetized during executions by lethal injection and may therefore have experienced painful deaths that violated the constitutional ban on cruel and unusual punishment.1,2

The EEG device used during Brown's execution was a bispectral index (BIS) monitor. Made by Aspect Medical . . .

Aspect was really pissed prisons ordered the BIS for executions. Seems the prisons didnt exactly come out and say, "We're going to use this when we kill some no-good bastard who deserves to die a much more painful death..."
Yeah, but I'm going to trademark it.

Minimally Abusive Excution
.™

Now, pay me a million dollars.


:idea::laugh:😍:hardy:😉😀🙂😛

-copro
.
 
:laugh::laugh::laugh:


Too late. Already been done.

NEJM
Volume 354:2525-2527 June 15, 2006 Number 24

New Technology, Old Dilemma — Monitoring EEG Activity during Executions

Robert Steinbrook, M.D

On April 21, 2006, Willie Brown, Jr., was executed by lethal injection in North Carolina for the 1983 killing of a convenience-store clerk. The execution might have received little attention if not for the fact that Brown's electroencephalogram (EEG) was monitored during the procedure. This apparently unprecedented monitoring was a response to concern that some inmates have not been properly anesthetized during executions by lethal injection and may therefore have experienced painful deaths that violated the constitutional ban on cruel and unusual punishment.1,2

The EEG device used during Brown's execution was a bispectral index (BIS) monitor. Made by Aspect Medical . . .

Aspect was really pissed prisons ordered the BIS for executions. Seems the prisons didnt exactly come out and say, "We're going to use this when we kill some no-good bastard who deserves to die a much more painful death..."
 
Yeah, but I'm going to trademark it.

Minimally Abusive Excution
.™

Now, pay me a million dollars.


:idea::laugh:😍:hardy:😉😀🙂😛

-copro
.

I love it. Now you need a lame-a$$ website to pander your ideas from.
 
Yeah, but I'm going to trademark it.

Minimally Abusive Excution
.™

Now, pay me a million dollars.


:idea::laugh:😍:hardy:😉😀🙂😛

-copro
.

I throw the phrase "Lol" around a lot, but right now I am quite literally laughing out loud. Bravo, sir.
 
Too late. Already been done.

NEJM
Volume 354:2525-2527 June 15, 2006 Number 24

New Technology, Old Dilemma — Monitoring EEG Activity during Executions

Robert Steinbrook, M.D

On April 21, 2006, Willie Brown, Jr., was executed by lethal injection in North Carolina for the 1983 killing of a convenience-store clerk. The execution might have received little attention if not for the fact that Brown's electroencephalogram (EEG) was monitored during the procedure. This apparently unprecedented monitoring was a response to concern that some inmates have not been properly anesthetized during executions by lethal injection and may therefore have experienced painful deaths that violated the constitutional ban on cruel and unusual punishment.1,2

The EEG device used during Brown's execution was a bispectral index (BIS) monitor. Made by Aspect Medical . . .

Aspect was really pissed prisons ordered the BIS for executions. Seems the prisons didnt exactly come out and say, "We're going to use this when we kill some no-good bastard who deserves to die a much more painful death..."

Great article. It goes on to say

According to Kelley, there
is no assurance that “BIS monitoring
alone would prevent an
inmate from suffering during
the lethal-injection procedure.”

So if the BIS can't assure lack of suffering during execution, how can we rely on the stupid thing to guarantee no awareness during surgery?
 
Yeah, but I'm going to trademark it.

Minimally Abusive Excution
.™

Now, pay me a million dollars.


:idea::laugh:😍:hardy:😉😀🙂😛

-copro
.

Doesn't it require a plastic surgeon to trademark any phrase with "minimally"?
 
The description I read of this Supreme Court case so far made me angry.

The question being, if the executee is fully aware but paralyzed when the KCl goes in, is it 'cruel and unusual' for them to feel the pain it causes (presumably for just a few seconds before arresting)?

Of course, there were no anesthesiologists testifying. A vet (who said "we don't even use KCl on CATS") and a pathologist who said an apneic, aware death would be extremely painful/agonizing.

And then they trot out the anesthesia awareness people quoting the "1 in 1000" figure and comparing their experience of hours of agony and PTSD to what the executee COULD feel for probably just a few seconds.

And, a Scalia remark which I thought was well taken: "It's not surgery, it's an execution."

Ugh, ugh, ugh.
 
Okay, so according to the Internal Medicine gurus, you shouldn't even serve in an advisory capacity on this issue...

Physicians and other health care providers should not be involved in capital punishment, even in an advisory capacity. A profession dedicated to healing the sick has no place in the process of execution. On January 7 in oral arguments in Baze v. Rees, the justices asked many important and thoughtful questions about a potential role for physicians and other health care professionals in executions. In their fuller examination of Baze v. Rees, the justices should not presume that the medical profession will be available to assist in the taking of human lives. We believe that, like the anesthesiologists in the Morales case, all responsible members of the medical profession, when asked to assist in a state-ordered execution, will remember the Hippocratic Oath and refuse to participate. The future of capital punishment in the United States will be up to the justices, but the involvement of physicians in executions will be up to the medical profession.
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/NEJMe0800032

So, I'm a simple man. And, I'm a bit baffled by this. Help me understand. Isn't the NEJM basically coming out against the death penalty here? That's how I read it. Pretty bold political statement, dontcha think? They are essentially saying that we should not use our expertise to provide guidance in minimizing potential suffering of someone who a state or federal court has determined should be executed and might otherwise suffer a horrendous death?

This opens a whole big can o'worms for me. What about physician assisted suicide? Their statements seem pretty clear: "remember the Hippocratic Oath and refuse to participate." Should we let suffering patients continue to botch this too? So, tell me is that wrong too, oh Holy Determinor of Right and Wrong Lords of NEJM? If that's the case, you've got a big bone to pick with the State of Oregon!

-copro
 
Here's copro's recipe (anyone feel free to use, we all know it would work better than the current one):

1) Armboard, 1% lidocaine with 27g needle, small skin bleb just below AC in non-dominant hand. 16g IV started in AC. Normal saline with good IV flow. Confirmation that there is no sub-q spread. Standard pulse ox, EKG, and BP.

2) 5mg midazolam administered IV. BIS monitor placed on patient's head.

3) Propofol administered via infusion at 200mcg/kg/min until BIS reading below 60.

4) Pancuronium 20mg IV push. Wait until SpO2 dips below 88%

5) Potassium chloride 400 meq slow IV push.

6) Wait until vital signs cease.

Done. No one even has to be in the room.

Now, you want to continue to let "executioners" botch this? You want some other scape goat for not giving out a punishment handed down by the courts? Or, do you think that we should be able to use our expertise to bring justice humanely? I sure as hell don't want the NEJM telling me what to do. And, I will tell you that I would love to personally administer this cocktail to the m***** f***** who murdered the sister of one of my best friends.

Followed her home.

Forced his way into her house.

Beat her to death with a shovel.

She was 32.

Who was thinking of her right not to suffer a "cruel and unusual" punishment for doing absolutely nothing wrong except smiling and waving to a guy while on her way home (which is what he said she did to "entice" him at the trial)?

-copro
 
I get a little miffed when people start pulling out the Hippocratic oath. I think in general it's a pretty good idea, and the Oath of Geneva isn't bad, but have you ever read the classical Hippocratic Oath? Here are some of my favorite parts (not representing my political views, but more for stirring the pot):

I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfil according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:

To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art - if they desire to learn it - without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else. . .

I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy.

I'd love to see a med student whip this out when it comes time to pay tuition and point out that according to the Hippocratic Oath, they should be taught free.

How about a one syringe technique, copro? Mix 30 ml propofol, 20 panc, 400 KCl in a syringe and push it. To fulfill JCAHO's labeling requirements, you could call it, "DEATH" or "JUSTICE."

The quesiton that's been going through my mind during these discussions is, "How much could I make moonlighting as an executioner?" How about $1,000 plus travel (1st class of course), lodging, and food? And don't forget the cool black hood. That's definately got to be part of the contract.
 
Here's copro's recipe (anyone feel free to use, we all know it would work better than the current one):...

And, I will tell you that I would love to personally administer this cocktail to the m***** f***** who murdered the sister of one of my best friends.

:scared: Ya know, I was with you up til this point.
 
:scared: Ya know, I was with you up til this point.

Yeah, my buddy is a practicing oral surgeon. His sister was found dead in her home on a Saturday morning after she failed to show-up for a family get together on the previous Friday evening and did not answer her phone the same night.

I think people feel differently when this type of tragedy affects them personally.

I have no fiduciary responsibility to any inmate. I have not made the determination on what the ultimate punishment for their crime is. And, my training and expertise provides me the opportunity to administer a non-"botched" and effective remedy prescribed by the state.

There are few others I can think of who'd get my "best treatment", like Osama to name one. I just can't stand the paternalistic, antiquated, outdated, hifalutin b.s. that's put forth anymore by such ivory tower advocates like this editor of the NEJM. I don't care what he thinks, and he should not be so brazen and arrogant to attempt to dictate my ethical lifeview.

He is a dinosaur who's apparently quite out of touch with the way medicine is currently being practiced, let alone the ideals that we struggle to uphold everyday in the face of non-paying, suing, and uninterested-in-getting-better patients we are continuously barraged with on a daily basis. Forget about the issue of the death penalty for a second. The entire basis of the Hippocratic oath is suspect, the unabridged version of which is not even what's recited in medical schools anymore.

-copro
 
This is something I've often thought about, and since y'all around here are the pharm guru's I'll just ask.

Why don't we just have a massive dose of morphine for lethal injections?

Advancing from Schedule III thiopental to a Schedule II opioid creates additional logistic difficulties and red tape, which may be one reason opioids are not currently part of the protocol.

If opioid "monotherapy" were utilized for lethal injection, I would choose fentanyl because of its quicker onset than morphine. Yet given at a sufficiently large dose (1000-2000mcg), the effects would not wear off before the inmate is dead. The problem with opioids by themselves is that they are not considered to reliably obliterate consciousness. Also, in the course of becoming apneic, the condemned could experience unpleasant nausea, chest-wall rigidity, itching, etc.

I personally would favor fentanyl following or in combination with the thiopental to augment its sedation. It would hasten the onset of apnea from the muscle relaxant, which should be switched to rocuronium for quicker onset. The cost of the drugs is irrelevant considering what is already spent on legal fees, etc. to bring about an execution. The KCl could probably be foregone. Nonetheless, having given fentanyl would significantly mitigate the argument about any pain upon KCl injection.
 
All that is just a waste of money. All you need is a 9mm and dose of cojones.
 
Last edited:
All that is just a waste of money. All you need is a loaded 9mm and a dose of cojones.

Well, that's how they used to routinely do it: firing squad, hanging, electrocution...

It's sometimes amusing to witness the creativity of people who want to push an agenda. We are living in the age of "because I believe I'm right, I must be right, and everyone else should acknowledge that and do as I say." And, they are going to slowly chip away at "the way things are" until they succeed.

-copro
 
THIS ARTICLE SAYS IT ALL:

utting Inmates Down Like Dogs and Making It Hurt: Ann Woolner

Commentary by Ann Woolner

Jan. 11 (Bloomberg) -- An IV line in a vein, a few pushes of a syringe, and the condemned man drifts off to sleep before his heart stops. How cruel could that possibly be?


Gone are the nooses and firing squads, the gas chambers and Old Sparky, a common nickname for the electric chair. No more reports of flames shooting out from inmates' heads.


Those convicted of the cruelest of killings are now dispatched into the next world as comfortably as a surgery patient who died on the operating table, or a family pooch taken to that mythical farm in the country. Or so it would seem.


From the arguments this week at the U.S. Supreme Court over lethal injections, you would think our standard of decency so exquisitely evolved and the debate over execution methods so refined that remaining differences hardly matter.


Is monitoring adequate? After rendering the inmate unconscious, should executioners paralyze him so that he doesn't twitch or convulse? Is mere risk of pain unconstitutional?


Surely this is yet another ploy by those imaginative death penalty opponents to foil the system and keep their monstrous clients alive another day, another year, as Justice Antonin Scalia suggested.

To hear this week's argument, you wouldn't know that it's likely that executioners have repeatedly, if unintentionally, inflicted agonizing pain on conscious prisoners too paralyzed to move, too suffocated to cry out.

Prolonging Execution

Executions that are supposed to take 10 to 15 minutes have dragged on much longer. In Ohio, it took 86 minutes to kill Joseph Clark.

``It don't work,'' Clark said over and over, lifting his head and shaking it when he was supposed to be unconscious. Nineteen puncture wounds, much moaning and almost an hour and a half later, he was dead.

Beyond the scarcity of healthy veins among death row inmates, the critical problem is that, if the first of the three drugs that most states use, a barbiturate, is given in too small a dose or slips through an IV leak, a punctured vein or a misplaced catheter, the inmate will be conscious when the next two drugs are pushed into his body.

The second one will paralyze him. The third drug, which stops the heart, will burn and inflict unspeakable agony if he is conscious.
That is precisely what happened in several executions, the evidence seems to show.

No Medical Background

Many death chamber personnel have no medical background, don't read the protocol and get no training, according to testimony in several cases and official findings in Florida.

Ethical guidelines discourage medical personnel from aiding in death, but Missouri had an actual doctor, Alan Doerhoff, overseeing 54 of its executions until a federal judge ordered him off the job.

It turns out that Doerhoff had been sued for malpractice more than 20 times by his count, reprimanded by the state medical board for misrepresenting that fact and kicked out of two hospitals.

Dyslexic, he couldn't say for sure how much of what drug he had given to which inmate, he testified. He did acknowledge he sometimes gave half the anesthesia he was supposed to give.

None of that came up in this week's argument.

The justices are reviewing an appeal by two death row inmates in Kentucky, a state with relatively well-trained staff and no history of botched executions. Only one person has been lethally injected in Kentucky, a decade ago. It went fine, as best as anyone can tell.

A Poor Test Case

This is the case for you if you want the Supreme Court to ignore problems surrounding lethal injections. If you think the court should at least consider evidence this method can and does go disastrously awry, it's the wrong case.

Evidence of botched executions elsewhere was ruled irrelevant at an early stage of the Kentucky litigation, so the high court has slim information on them.

The justices do know that, unless the inmate is rendered completely unconscious by the first drug, he will suffer a horrendous death while appearing to be at peace.

Veterinarians generally use only a lethal dose of that first, painless drug to put down animals, finding no need to paralyze them or to use a potentially pain-inducing drug to stop the heart.

Angel Diaz no doubt wished for such a humane death when he was executed in Florida in 2006. Afterwards, burned flesh and foot-long blisters where two IVs had been inserted in his arms resulted when the catheters punctured his veins, according to a governor's commission on lethal injections.

The commission said it couldn't be sure Diaz suffered, though witnesses reported signs of consciousness.


Autopsy Results

Likewise, autopsies have reported punctured, collapsed or missed veins in some cases, making it possible that at least some anesthesia missed its mark.

During Tyrone Gilliam's execution in Maryland in 1998, an IV leaked, creating a puddle on the floor and a possibility that he never received the full dose of anesthesia, the state conceded during litigation.

In California, log reports on vital signs indicate that six out of the last 11 inmates executed may have been partially conscious, as the staff couldn't properly interpret their own readings.

In Oklahoma, witnesses reported Lloyd LeFevers lifting his head and looking like he was gasping for air when he was supposed to be unconscious. An autopsy found that drugs probably leaked into tissue.

This isn't about whether it is constitutional to impose death. It is about whether it's constitutional to do it as carelessly as it is done in this country, risking excruciating pain, when a single, lethal dose of barbiturate would do the job with no chance of hurting the condemned.

It's what veterinarians do for dogs.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_woolner&sid=aATQVsddZS5o
 
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