sin for Muslims to go into plastic surgery ??

[druggeek]

I always find it amusing when atheists take such pride in their perceived intellectual superiority. Particularly since most of them don't have any accomplishments that would justify their attitude (aside from passing Philosophy 101).

I suspect the reason you don't know of many doctors who are religious is that doctors modify their behavior according to the person they deal with. I have seen doctors that are pure atheist who use religious language when dealing with religious patients. Presumably doctors around you figure you're a dork who reads a lot of Nietzsche and act accordingly.

It is not the person speaking the words, but the words which are spoken that matters.

And I know a large number of doctors in my family/relatives, and lots of family friends/friends of relatives who are doctors. I don't ask random docs if they're an atheist or not.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[druggeek]

There is a difference in way people (or masses) think. In your society concepts are quite different than from where people like myself come. And it is a reality. This is no joke. But the real question is that if I call you something which makes you feel insulted or if I insult something which is sacred to you, is this a good thing? No its not. We must learn to respect others. We must learn to respect what is sacred to others. You people think that there is no value in religion. Fine! But keep it to yourself. Not everyone in the universe thinks the same. If you try to force your ideas on others, you would not seem wise. And especially if you think something is funny, and you want every person in the world to laugh about it, you would make yourself look funny.

And one further thing. If you think something is right. It is not necessary I will think the same of it. Does this allow you to call me a fool? Think!

Well your islamic countries shove their beliefs down everyone's throat. So why the double standard?
I respect it when people believe in a god (because no one truly knows), as in some form of superpower. It is referred to as Deism, a god which is not associated with religion.
Now when religions are involved... there is minimal respect on a personal level. When someone with a human brain believes in fairytales which are loaded with false information, then why would I respect that? If someone who isn't mentally challenged comes running from down the street saying he's god, do you believe him? and respect him? Or do you disregard and assume he's an idiot/schizo.

 

[druggeek]

good one...

you do realize as a doctor (regardless of specialty) at some point in your training you will be putting fingers up a woman's vagina? her rectum? sometimes at the same time...also doing breast exams and touching their nipples?..performing a vaginal delivery?...you will also be putting multiple fingers through a guy's anus? touching and feeling a guys penis and testicles? etc etc

if you go through general surgery training you will be doing a lot more, including mastectomies...didn't even mention gross anatomy class (which could be considered a sin too since you're messing around with a dead body)..

every aspect of life can be considered a sin using your irrational logic (some even consider using a computer or technology a sin so maybe you should stop using the computer too right?)...just need to use your own common sense when dealing with religion..its not always black or white as most people try to portray it as...

the procedures themselves are not the issues..it's your INTENTIONS..if you have dirty intentions when performing those exams/procedures thats the real issue..you will not be judged on those actions if you have a clean heart..you will be judged on your intentions

I don't think those dudes who made religion thought of all these things. 🙄
The quran is supposed to be an "eternal book" , and is supposed to be followed 100% to the dot. Based on that, no muslim should ever think about living in a western country, let alone becoming a doctor. I don't think allah thought of these things...

 

[TXKnight]

I don't think those dudes who made religion thought of all these things. 🙄
The quran is supposed to be an "eternal book" , and is supposed to be followed 100% to the dot. Based on that, no muslim should ever think about living in a western country, let alone becoming a doctor. I don't think allah thought of these things...

so is christian dogma to be followed 100%.. Maybe you are confused with what you are trying to say, or are trying to say something without saying it.

 

[druggeek]

so is christian dogma to be followed 100%.. Maybe you are confused with what you are trying to say, or are trying to say something without saying it.

Not necessarily, but I was talking about the quran/islam. However the fundamental teachings of christianity are to be followed pretty much 100%, (ex. no premarital sex, no stealing, etc etc). Many "religious" people are pure hypocrites and choose what they want to follow (ex. girl has 3some then goes to church next morning).

A large majority of muslims go against their beliefs as well (in western countries). Chicks go to their mosque, then bang some dude the next day.

 

[Wordead]

It is not the person speaking the words, but the words which are spoken that matters.

And I know a large number of doctors in my family/relatives, and lots of family friends/friends of relatives who are doctors. I don't ask random docs if they're an atheist or not.

Go google sampling bias *****

 

[topsurgeon2010]

I don't think those dudes who made religion thought of all these things. 🙄
The quran is supposed to be an "eternal book" , and is supposed to be followed 100% to the dot. Based on that, no muslim should ever think about living in a western country, let alone becoming a doctor. I don't think allah thought of these things...

thats the point..that those things are not explicitly mentioned in many religious texts (it is not specific to one religion dude and most of the quran is stories that are very similar to the bible and torah.. relatively little direction)..in fact many aspects of life are NOT EXPLICITLY mentioned..culture and law instead have been mixed in with religion which is why it confuses people because the boundaries get blurred..religion in order to prosper MUST have some gray area ON PURPOSE so that 1000+ years from then it is still applicable...its very non-specific rules like "be modest"...but people like to extrapolate those things which were already ambiguous and open to interpretation to completely different scenarios which just doesn't work..

and about your last 2 sentences..there are doctors in muslim countries too you know..........

a lot of the foundations of medicine was advanced by muslim doctors in the past...and Indians, Pakistanis and Middle Eastern doctors continue to be over-represented minorities in the field...whoever started this thread was either a troll or just being incredibly illogical

 

[jcruiser]

Well thank goodness we have your mother to tell us what is wrong and what is right.

If you're using my mom as a marker to determine your future, then I question what you already perceive as right and wrong. She's the most religious Muslim I know and OP was trying to figure out what the rules of the book are, explicitly without BD. And I just said it. It is haraam.

 

[jcruiser]

good one...

you do realize as a doctor (regardless of specialty) at some point in your training you will be putting fingers up a woman's vagina? her rectum? sometimes at the same time...also doing breast exams and touching their nipples?..performing a vaginal delivery?...you will also be putting multiple fingers through a guy's anus? touching and feeling a guys penis and testicles? etc etc

if you go through general surgery training you will be doing a lot more, including mastectomies...didn't even mention gross anatomy class (which could be considered a sin too since you're messing around with a dead body)..

every aspect of life can be considered a sin using your irrational logic (some even consider using a computer or technology a sin so maybe you should stop using the computer too right?)...just need to use your own common sense when dealing with religion..its not always black or white as most people try to portray it as...

the procedures themselves are not the issues..it's your INTENTIONS..if you have dirty intentions when performing those exams/procedures thats the real issue..you will not be judged on those actions if you have a clean heart..you will be judged on your intentions

It wasn't a joke. For the sake of saving a patient's life, those procedures aren't haraam. However, directly specializing in a field where you aren't doing anything but giving patients a new body that wasn't given to them at birth, and acknowledge that you, as a doctor, want to contribute to this field, while makin a business out of it and possibly have personal interest with the variety of patients, is haraam.

 

[druggeek]

thats the point..that those things are not explicitly mentioned in many religious texts (it is not specific to one religion dude and most of the quran is stories that are very similar to the bible and torah.. relatively little direction)..in fact many aspects of life are NOT EXPLICITLY mentioned..culture and law instead have been mixed in with religion which is why it confuses people because the boundaries get blurred..religion in order to prosper MUST have some gray area ON PURPOSE so that 1000+ years from then it is still applicable...its very non-specific rules like "be modest"...but people like to extrapolate those things which were already ambiguous and open to interpretation to completely different scenarios which just doesn't work..

and about your last 2 sentences..there are doctors in muslim countries too you know..........

a lot of the foundations of medicine was advanced by muslim doctors in the past...and Indians, Pakistanis and Middle Eastern doctors continue to be over-represented minorities in the field...whoever started this thread was either a troll or just being incredibly illogical

Most of religion is black and white... it is people who interpret it to have a gray area so that they can do whatever the hell they want while believing in a magic sky wizard. When the quran says to not do something, it means to not do it. Religious books actually do a good job of giving exceptions to their rules 🙂 Ex. no pork for muslims, but you can eat it if there's nothing else to eat and you're dying of hunger. In fact, the book even tells you that everything must be followed as it is.

 

[druggeek]

If you're using my mom as a marker to determine your future, then I question what you already perceive as right and wrong. She's the most religious Muslim I know and OP was trying to figure out what the rules of the book are, explicitly without BD. And I just said it. It is haraam.

brb living my self based on what a housewife says which is based off a 1400 year old book that says its right so it must be right

Does your mom know the other stuff that happens in med school, residency, and in practice? Plastics is one of manyyyy things physicians do that is against your book.

 

[topsurgeon2010]

If you're using my mom as a marker to determine your future, then I question what you already perceive as right and wrong. She's the most religious Muslim I know and OP was trying to figure out what the rules of the book are, explicitly without BD. And I just said it. It is haraam.

then I respectfully disagree with her opinion..you're mom may not be viewing the entire picture..her opinion of plastic surgery is not complete or informed..she is stereotyping plastic surgery to cosmetic procedures and boob jobs..when she thinks of plastic surgery she may immediately be associating it with "breasts" and jumping to the conclusion that it must be a sin to deal with breasts, which is already a highly taboo topic in our CULTURE..and then you're extrapolating boob jobs to extra-marital affairs, which is just not logical..

pretty sure no where in our religion does it EXPLICITLY say that is a sin to do plastic surgery so its NOT accurate for people to come on here and state it as though it is...you're just extrapolating one thing to a completely different situation without taking into account the context..

plastic surgery made a huge impact on this person's life:

www.cleveland.com/medical/index.ssf/2009/05/face_transplant.html

also what about burn victims, trauma patients, cleft lip and other severe congenital deformities, breast reconstruction after breast cancer, etc etc

 

[druggeek]

It wasn't a joke. For the sake of saving a patient's life, those procedures aren't haraam. However, directly specializing in a field where you aren't doing anything but giving patients a new body that wasn't given to them at birth, and acknowledge that you, as a doctor, want to contribute to this field, while makin a business out of it and possibly have personal interest with the variety of patients, is haraam.

What about the other stuff you will do (ex. gross anatomy) which is 100% haram?

 

[topsurgeon2010]

Most of religion is black and white... it is people who interpret it to have a gray area so that they can do whatever the hell they want while believing in a magic sky wizard. When the quran says to not do something, it means to not do it. Religious books actually do a good job of giving exceptions to their rules 🙂 Ex. no pork for muslims, but you can eat it if there's nothing else to eat and you're dying of hunger. In fact, the book even tells you that everything must be followed as it is.

nope religion for the most part is NOT black or white..otherwise it would never be applicable to anyone if it was extremely specific and thus never propagate..and it would never be debated throughout history if it was so clear...and to make it even more ambigious and unclear 99.9% of the population do NOT actually understand the ORIGINAL languages that each of the major texts were written in..all the current versions are TRANSLATED from the original language hence they were written by average people like you and me that had to interpret an already very complex text that is written very much like poetry---hence not only is the person incorporating their own interpretation while trying to comprehend the original language but also original meaning may be partially lost when translating it into a different language..

and even the quran is not written in normal ever-day arabic..its written in very formal arabic that only a few actually understand..

is this written in explicit sentences at all?? just an example..even in regular english it's difficult not to include your interpretations..all major religious texts are like this..like poetry

The Lord's Prayer in Old English (not even the original language of the Bible)
Matthew 6:9-13

Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum
Si þin nama gehalgod
to becume þin rice
gewurþe ðin willa
on eorðan swa swa on heofonum.
urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us todæg
and forgyf us ure gyltas
swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum
and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge
ac alys us of yfele soþlice


Father our thou that art in heavens
be thy name hallowed
come thy kingdom
be done thy will
on earth as in heavens
our daily bread give us today
and forgive us our sins
as we forgive those who have sinned against us
and not lead thou us into temptation
but deliver us from evil truly

 

[topsurgeon2010]

What about the other stuff you will do (ex. gross anatomy) which is 100% haram?

its not actually haram..thats the point..that people use ILLOGICAL reasoning to make certain things into a sin...in reality, no where does it explicitly say that in the quran that doctors can't dissect a human body for educational purposes...it does, however, say people should respect a dead body..now that is open to interpretation..what does respecting a dead body mean?..and we also have to take that into context..back then at that time people were digging up graves to steal any buried jewelry and other possessions and then discarding the body or selling bones for "medicine"...so there is a reason behind that rule...but people don't take into account the context, meaning and "theme" behind each rule and instead like to make it "black or white" and then extrapolate to completely different situations

 

[Acoustic]

Well your islamic countries shove their beliefs down everyone's throat. So why the double standard?
I respect it when people believe in a god (because no one truly knows), as in some form of superpower. It is referred to as Deism, a god which is not associated with religion.
Now when religions are involved... there is minimal respect on a personal level. When someone with a human brain believes in fairytales which are loaded with false information, then why would I respect that? If someone who isn't mentally challenged comes running from down the street saying he's god, do you believe him? and respect him? Or do you disregard and assume he's an idiot/schizo.

So you think it's ok to believe in a god so long as there are no actual written stories talking about that belief? You're incredible, with your completely backwards logic that contradicts itself on a whim. You must be a troll.

 

[druggeek]

nope religion for the most part is NOT black or white..otherwise it would never be applicable to anyone if it was extremely specific and thus never propagate..and it would never be debated throughout history if it was so clear...and to make it even more ambigious and unclear 99.9% of the population do NOT actually understand the ORIGINAL languages that each of the major texts were written in..all the current versions are TRANSLATED from the original language hence they were written by average people like you and me that had to interpret an already very complex text that is written very much like poetry---hence not only is the person incorporating their own interpretation while trying to comprehend the original language but also original meaning may be partially lost when translating it into a different language..

and even the quran is not written in normal ever-day arabic..its written in very formal arabic that only a few actually understand..

is this written in explicit sentences at all?? just an example..even in regular english it's difficult not to include your interpretations..all major religious texts are like this..like poetry

The Lord's Prayer in Old English (not even the original language of the Bible)
Matthew 6:9-13

Fæder ure þu þe eart on heofonum
Si þin nama gehalgod
to becume þin rice
gewurþe ðin willa
on eorðan swa swa on heofonum.
urne gedæghwamlican hlaf syle us todæg
and forgyf us ure gyltas
swa swa we forgyfað urum gyltendum
and ne gelæd þu us on costnunge
ac alys us of yfele soþlice


Father our thou that art in heavens
be thy name hallowed
come thy kingdom
be done thy will
on earth as in heavens
our daily bread give us today
and forgive us our sins
as we forgive those who have sinned against us
and not lead thou us into temptation
but deliver us from evil truly

The reason that some religious teachings are not cut-throat clear is because the people who wrote it didn't do a good enough job.

its not actually haram..thats the point..that people use ILLOGICAL reasoning to make certain things into a sin...in reality, no where does it explicitly say that in the quran that doctors can't dissect a human body for educational purposes...it does, however, say people should respect a dead body..now that is open to interpretation..what does respecting a dead body mean?..and we also have to take that into context..back then at that time people were digging up graves to steal any buried jewelry and other possessions and then discarding the body or selling bones for "medicine"...so there is a reason behind that rule...but people don't take into account the context, meaning and "theme" behind each rule and instead like to make it "black or white" and then extrapolate to completely different situations

People use illogical reasoning to interpret religious texts to their own liking. You're saying the quran doesn't say med students cant do gross anatomy.. well geez do you want the book to tell you which foot to step out of your bed with too? You're manipulating the texts to suit what you want to do, when it is EXTREMELY clear what the actual message and idea is. Just most people choose to put on idiot glasses and read the texts, then translate it to something that they like.

 

[druggeek]

So you think it's ok to believe in a god so long as there are no actual written stories talking about that belief? You're incredible, with your completely backwards logic that contradicts itself on a whim. You must be a troll.

Absolutely. A god could be some sort of power that exists out there, very much different than many fairytale skywizards.
I liked the part where you actually gave an argument (sarcasm).

 

[Allegra]

OP, the fact of the matter is, unless it is explicitly written in no uncertain terms (And many things today aren't, due to how many practices and technologies we have that didn't exist back then), anything you might wonder about can be interpreted either way. Even what people consider to be "explicitly written" is up for debate!

Just last month there was a discussion at my school about whether or not it is haram to receive medicines IV during Ramadan fasting (I think almost everyone would say PO meds are haram). One person asked their imam and the imam said "haram." One person said "Yusuf al-Qaradawi says it's halal." Another person said something else. It went back and forth and the discussion ended without a clear answer.

The answer will differ based on who you ask, where in the world you are from, what denomination of Islam you belong to...the list goes on. You can look to Quran. If you aren't a pure Quranist you can look to Hadith (whichever set you use, since not everybody uses the same ones 😉). You can search for a fatwa by some cleric you deem to be trustworthy. You can extrapolate and compare and come to whatever conclusion you like. Someone out there will still tell you you are wrong (as druggeek and topsurgeon have illustrated). All you can do is satisfy yourself, and if you can't do that, then I'd say avoid plastics.

 

[topsurgeon2010]

OP, the fact of the matter is, unless it is explicitly written in no uncertain terms (And many things today aren't, due to how many practices and technologies we have that didn't exist back then), anything you might wonder about can be interpreted either way. Even what people consider to be "explicitly written" is up for debate!

Just last month there was a discussion at my school about whether or not it is haram to receive medicines IV during Ramadan fasting (I think almost everyone would say PO meds are haram). One person asked their imam and the imam said "haram." One person said "Yusuf al-Qaradawi says it's halal." Another person said something else. It went back and forth and the discussion ended without a clear answer.

The answer will differ based on who you ask, where in the world you are from, what denomination of Islam you belong to...the list goes on. You can look to Quran. If you aren't a pure Quranist you can look to Hadith (whichever set you use, since not everybody uses the same ones 😉). You can search for a fatwa by some cleric you deem to be trustworthy. You can extrapolate and compare and come to whatever conclusion you like. Someone out there will still tell you you are wrong (as druggeek and topsurgeon have illustrated). All you can do is satisfy yourself, and if you can't do that, then I'd say avoid plastics.

👍

completely agree with you

 

[druggeek]

OP, the fact of the matter is, unless it is explicitly written in no uncertain terms (And many things today aren't, due to how many practices and technologies we have that didn't exist back then), anything you might wonder about can be interpreted either way. Even what people consider to be "explicitly written" is up for debate!

Just last month there was a discussion at my school about whether or not it is haram to receive medicines IV during Ramadan fasting (I think almost everyone would say PO meds are haram). One person asked their imam and the imam said "haram." One person said "Yusuf al-Qaradawi says it's halal." Another person said something else. It went back and forth and the discussion ended without a clear answer.

The answer will differ based on who you ask, where in the world you are from, what denomination of Islam you belong to...the list goes on. You can look to Quran. If you aren't a pure Quranist you can look to Hadith (whichever set you use, since not everybody uses the same ones 😉). You can search for a fatwa by some cleric you deem to be trustworthy. You can extrapolate and compare and come to whatever conclusion you like. Someone out there will still tell you you are wrong (as druggeek and topsurgeon have illustrated). All you can do is satisfy yourself, and if you can't do that, then I'd say avoid plastics.

One would think such a "holy" and great book would be so perfect in laying out the rules so that fairytale experts aka "imams" wouldnt have to tell people how to live their lives.

 

[Dr Love]

Go google sampling bias *****

👍

 

[GroovyMed]

boobs, Boobs, BOOBS!

 

[DrMagic]

I realize this isn't a religious forum, but any advice is helpful.

Here is what I know (a.k.a. what I found on google).

Found one site that asked if becoming a plastic surgeron was haram (sin), which is my question, but the site no longer exists (my luck).

Found two sites that debate if it's a sin for a Muslim woman to get plastic surgery (not really applicable to me, but better than nothing, so I continue to read...).

One site was like you probably shouldn't, but if you really want it, than it's fine (if only we had parents like this, ha)

The second site states you shouldn't because it alters what God has made (makes sense).
Than the same site gives thumbs up on some plastics, mostly referring to facial reconstructive surgery post accident. Than again, Muslims believe in predestination (i.e. things happen for a reason). So, with that said, wouldn't facial reconstructive surgery be considered a sin since, in essence, you are altering what God has done?
This same site mentions that if you are a Muslim plastic surgeon (so it is permitted?) that you have to turn away anything that alters/enhances someone's figure (than how am I suppose to pay back my student loans?)

If you are not comfortable posting on the forum, you can message me 🙂

Here is the thing about religions, no matter which ones they are, if you think you are sinning, you probably are. I've never heard of a religion that supports anything that is morally questionable, unless its a newly adapted sub-unit of the original organization, set up to allow changes in society, or for like minded people to validate what they are doing is right. Do I think plastic surgery is wrong? No way, that's the number 1 field I want to do, and its what I'm more passionate about than anything. Do I think its morally wrong in the eyes of a religious person? Yes it probably is. Do I think its wonderful to make woman feel better about themselves and to help those genetically not as lucky? Yes of course I do.

If you want to think of a way to validate what you are doing, I will attempt to do that. Think about anything that someone is born with that hinders the normal course of life, think about psychology, and making people feel better to live healthier. Well I have never met a person that thought their entire body was perfect, and who wouldn't want to feel more whole, satisfied, and get better looks from the opposite sex? Maybe its not even about sex, its about feeling more normal so that a person can be noted for their academic and societal achievements versus their ginormous juggernaut breasts. People might have a car accident and want to get back to what they do as an executive at work, without people freaking out when they see the face of the company.

I don't think its a bad thing, but religion typically knocks sex outside of marriage, drinking, and other forms of pleasure, and I am sure plastic surgery would be included. Within every taboo there is too much of a taboo and a good moderate amount of it. Determining what level you think is appropriate and if its a sin or not is between you and God. You shouldn't keep all of your moral fibers from your family unless you want to, you are your own person and should carve your own life. If I think about Muslims, the woman wearing all of that clothing, yes it would seem like a sin if a woman wanted to increase her breast size if for the purposes of attracting more men. If for the purposes of feeling more whole as a woman, than I think the answer would be different from that perspective. Again I have no religious justifications for plastic surgery, but that is something you need to assess if you are going to go into this highly cosmetic field, which I adore.

 

[Dr Love]

If you want to think of a way to validate what you are doing, I will attempt to do that. Think about anything that someone is born with that hinders the normal course of life, think about psychology, and making people feel better to live healthier. Well I have never met a person that thought their entire body was perfect, and who wouldn't want to feel more whole, satisfied, and get better looks from the opposite sex? Maybe its not even about sex, its about feeling more normal so that a person can be noted for their academic and societal achievements versus their ginormous juggernaut breasts. People might have a car accident and want to get back to what they do as an executive at work, without people freaking out when they see the face of the company.

Lol, I hear what you're saying, but you definitely lose credibility when you say woman might want breast implants to be noted for their academic achievements.

 

[MedicinaeDoctor]

OP, it's a sin for Muslims to even be in the medical profession. Why are you messing with the health, wellness, disease, and injuries that God has given human beings? Especially the notion of preventing and/or prolonging the natural on-set of death...and worse, listening to music in the OR while operating on someone of the opposite sex!!! 😱 tsk tsk

 

[Humans]

I can pertain to this since I come from a strong Muslim background. Even though my aspirations are to continue with medicine by going to med school or dental school I have thought of Quaran and if I am making the right decision. I do not believe that plastic surgery is right WHEN it pertains to getting a breast enlargement or something else that is cosmetic. I think that if you have a life threatening injury then you should get some work done, or a rhinoplasty if you cannot breathe correctly. Saving lives is why I entered medicine and what I believe is right in the eyes of god (to which religion it may concern).

 

[Caesar]

How do religious people even get into med school? You'd think they wouldn't make the IQ cut.

Oh wait that's why the carribean schools are full of muslims and a large majority of the small number of religious people in north american med schools are partial agnostics anyway.

A very educated response. :eyeroll:

Don't debate religion here, answer the OPs question or find another thread.

 

[druggeek]

A very educated response. :eyeroll:

Don't debate religion here, answer the OPs question or find another thread.

So why isn't the same thing said to people who use info. from 1400 years ago (to dictate their lives) about a guy who moved the moon, guys who slept for 300 years in a cave, etc etc ?

 

[MedicalBeast]

do what you want with your life, you have to make these decisions for yourself not by what others or society tells you. at the end of the day, you decide what you value and what services to bring to your patients, and if you believe you improved their life in any way, then you have done your duty as a physician and as a child of god (if you believe in religion)

and plastic surgery is not all cosmetics, in fact a majority of it is for actual medical purposes.

 

[Danlee07]

It is not well known that IQ has any correlation with religion. Reread your paper that you're citing because I know which one you are using... which every single atheist always uses. There was 0.9 correlation but if you look at the raw data, GDP wasn't taken into account. And the US was the outlier with highest GDP and highest IQ. And your arguments are so flawed because you base them off premises that only exist in your head...

Also religious people are subconsciously held to a higher standard than expected from others. But, the basis of Christianity highly emphasizes to THINK... and the texts and people who falsely claim they believe in ____ all culminate in a giant cliche of religious people who are hypocrites. That is why you look at religion based on individuals and leave generalizations out of the argument.

A foundational belief in God is to treat your body with the utmost respect because it is not yours and a "holy temple." Getting a facelift to look younger only focus on the outward appearance in an attempt of age-related deception; there's no reason that getting a facelift improves the body. But when your face is blown off with a shotgun in an accident, restoration of the face would be helpful. Transplants are a way of prolonging life and possibly a new opportunity of good work.

Not sure if this is in the Quran, but for a true believer of Christianity, he will realize that it is a premise to think hard by himself. If you actually believe in Islam, then you need to think about the principles and make a logical decision on your own... asking a forum of non-believers won't exactly help you.

 

[druggeek]

It is not well known that IQ has any correlation with religion. Reread your paper that you're citing because I know which one you are using... which every single atheist always uses. There was 0.9 correlation but if you look at the raw data, GDP wasn't taken into account. And the US was the outlier with highest GDP and highest IQ. And your arguments are so flawed because you base them off premises that only exist in your head...

Also religious people are subconsciously held to a higher standard than expected from others. But, the basis of Christianity highly emphasizes to THINK... and the texts and people who falsely claim they believe in ____ all culminate in a giant cliche of religious people who are hypocrites. That is why you look at religion based on individuals and leave generalizations out of the argument.

A foundational belief in God is to treat your body with the utmost respect because it is not yours and a "holy temple." Getting a facelift to look younger only focus on the outward appearance in an attempt of age-related deception; there's no reason that getting a facelift improves the body. But when your face is blown off with a shotgun in an accident, restoration of the face would be helpful. Transplants are a way of prolonging life and possibly a new opportunity of good work.

Not sure if this is in the Quran, but for a true believer of Christianity, he will realize that it is a premise to think hard by himself. If you actually believe in Islam, then you need to think about the principles and make a logical decision on your own... asking a forum of non-believers won't exactly help you.

2 questions.

Do you agree high IQ societies are composed of mostly atheists and and agnostics, and those which dont believe in a religion? And that those who are in poverty are usually religious?

 

[Acoustic]

2 questions.

Do you agree high IQ societies are composed of mostly atheists and and agnostics, and those which dont believe in a religion? And that those who are in poverty are usually religious?

:troll:

 

[MediCynical]

Guess which country performs the most government funded sex change operations in the world?


Iran.

Srs.

 

[scarshapedstar]

A partial agnostic is someone who has some doubts in their faith.

Ah... no. That's more like a partial believer.

A partial agnostic would be someone who isn't entirely sure as to whether there can be any rational basis for belief in the supernatural. Which is to say... someone who's so indecisive they're better known as a low-information swing voter.

(Yeah, I went there.)

 

[Ravendown]

I strongly believe that a person shouldn't say something controversial about stuff he doesn't know well. What do you know about those 1400 year old rules. Let me give you one simple explanation. How many rules do you know that are older than those 1400 years old rules and still followed in their original shape. If these 1400 years old rules are still followed in their original shape by millions of people, there must be something special about them. They are completely followable and provide good results that is why they are alive even 1400 years after their origin.
So please show some respect or others will forget to respect you.

a good number of rules that are 1400+ years old are pretty asinine. Many of them I imagine were created to subjugate the ignorant by the more powerful. The list goes on.

 

[Chamahk]

some of the replies in this thread. smh. Why can't we all just get along? what's is to yuh what someone believes? OP's question could have easily been answered without atheists and religious people taking shots at each other; it's always the athiests who feel the need to take the first swing at religious people.

👎thumbdown this thread should be closed!

 

[KobeshouldbeaMD]

👎thumbdown this thread should be closed!

Agreed, OPs question was completely ignored and everyone just started disrespecting each other.

 

[MedicalBeast]

you should all be ashamed of yourselves

 

[Chamahk]

you should all be ashamed of yourselves

except for me; I'm cool, bruh 😎

 

[druggeek]

Not talking about this forum, but north america/europe has WAY too much religious tolerance. Result: England being taken over by radical muslims (just one of many countries in europe).

I'd like to see people who push for strong religious tolerance to walk into a muslim country and try to say the same thing there... dont be surprised when your head comes off your body.

 

[Kadava Reviva]

I realize this isn't a religious forum, but any advice is helpful.

Here is what I know (a.k.a. what I found on google).

Found one site that asked if becoming a plastic surgeron was haram (sin), which is my question, but the site no longer exists (my luck).

Found two sites that debate if it's a sin for a Muslim woman to get plastic surgery (not really applicable to me, but better than nothing, so I continue to read...).

One site was like you probably shouldn't, but if you really want it, than it's fine (if only we had parents like this, ha)

The second site states you shouldn't because it alters what God has made (makes sense).
Than the same site gives thumbs up on some plastics, mostly referring to facial reconstructive surgery post accident. Than again, Muslims believe in predestination (i.e. things happen for a reason). So, with that said, wouldn't facial reconstructive surgery be considered a sin since, in essence, you are altering what God has done?
This same site mentions that if you are a Muslim plastic surgeon (so it is permitted?) that you have to turn away anything that alters/enhances someone's figure (than how am I suppose to pay back my student loans?)

If you are not comfortable posting on the forum, you can message me 🙂

If that were true, then all of medecine and surgery would be a sin. So would cosmetology, shaving or any type of grooming. I believe "God's will" is open to interpretation.
As a plastic surgeon, you can do great things for other people. Hand surgey, reconstructions, fixing deviated septi, etc. Plastics can even make someone feel better about their appearance after years of psychotherapy failed to make a dent and may prompt them to "get out there" and live a happier, possibly more productive life.

If you really think P.S. goes against divine will, then chose something else and let the heathens perform cosmetic miracles on their way to hell.

 

[Kadava Reviva]

some of the replies in this thread. smh. Why can't we all just get along? what's is to yuh what someone believes? OP's question could have easily been answered without atheists and religious people taking shots at each other; it's always the athiests who feel the need to take the first swing at religious people.

👎thumbdown this thread should be closed!

No way in hell should any thread be closed because someone is expressing their opinions. No one has a right not to be offended.

Remember many proponents of Islam are very vocal about their opinions of other religions, both in the East and in the West, where political correctness prohibit any opposing opinions to be expressed publicly. There is too much censorship in the media and the internet is the last bastion of free speech. Let's not start censoring opinions here as well.

Note this is not an anti-Islam post. It is just a defense of freedom of expression. By the way, I must add that I find your suggestion to close this thread extremely offensive, but will never suggest your post be deleted.

Unlike plastic surgery, I believe wanting someone's opinion being censored or because it differs from yours is a sin. We all live in the same world. You are not in charge.

You could however invoke divine intervention and pray for this server to blow up. Who knows? Maybe Allah's will is for this site to disappear.

 

[MedicalBeast]

nice rant

 

[surftheiop]

Not talking about this forum, but north america/europe has WAY too much religious tolerance. Result: England being taken over by radical muslims (just one of many countries in europe).

I'd like to see people who push for strong religious tolerance to walk into a muslim country and try to say the same thing there... dont be surprised when your head comes off your body.

Wow I knew the prisons in Sweden were nice, but I didn't think they would let you on the internet...

 

[Dr Love]

Not talking about this forum, but north america/europe has WAY too much religious tolerance. Result: England being taken over by radical muslims (just one of many countries in europe).

I'd like to see people who push for strong religious tolerance to walk into a muslim country and try to say the same thing there... dont be surprised when your head comes off your body.

What are you talking about? I haven't seen Queen Elizabeth in a burqa...

 

[druggeek]

What are you talking about? I haven't seen Queen Elizabeth in a burqa...

England is one of the european countries which is filled with radical muslims. Although people like to deny it, these dudes breed out kids 5x faster than all english folks do. Couple generations later.... you get a muslim majority population. A quick "democratic" vote, and muslims take power.

Although people think this idea is far fetched, let's remember it is a slow process and it sinks in very slowly. The number of muslims in europe is steadily rising (and has been for a long time), while the number of europeans isnt rising as fast.

 

[TheLesPaul]

.

 

[Dr Love]

England is one of the european countries which is filled with radical muslims. Although people like to deny it, these dudes breed out kids 5x faster than all english folks do. Couple generations later.... you get a muslim majority population. A quick "democratic" vote, and muslims take power.

Although people think this idea is far fetched, let's remember it is a slow process and it sinks in very slowly. The number of muslims in europe is steadily rising (and has been for a long time), while the number of europeans isnt rising as fast.

Yea OK, come back in a couple of generations then. I've got better things to do then worry what England's demographics will be in 200 years.

 

[HondoCrouch]

How do religious people even get into med school? You'd think they wouldn't make the IQ cut.

Oh wait that's why the carribean schools are full of muslims and a large majority of the small number of religious people in north american med schools are partial agnostics anyway.

Antagonism towards religion is a sign of insecurity and usually indicates a pseudo-intellectual that is not half as clever as he/she believes themselves to be.