Slightly worried...?

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I'm having second thoughts too. I might have to look to the States...well at least they get paid more.
 
Doc22B said:
CARMS results for 2010 have been posted:
http://www.carms.ca/eng/operations_R1reports_10_e.shtml
IMG spots have been reduced from last year yet applicants are higher than ever...I do not know what to make of this. I am starting my first year in Ireland come September. I am having second thoughts...
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if you check through other posts on matching from the Irish programs, you will see that they defy the statistics and have an almost perfect match rate to Canada. This has been true for years, even before the current system of keeping a percentage of spots for IMG's. Of my class of 13, only one person did not match. The current grads had a 100% match rates from UCC. CaRMS means "everyone who trained outside of Canada of any age" when they say IMG. If they published separate stats for Ireland you would see some vastly different figures.
If you want a back-up plan, write the USMLE steps and apply to the US as well. Cheers,
M
 
How similar is the USMLE to the MCCQ and MCCEE exams? I don't want to live in the US but I might not have a choice if I don't get into Canada so I'll probably have to write the American exams at the same time. I've heard the Canadian ones are harder and I've also heard rumours that they are now starting to let people us USMLE in lieu of the Canadian version. Do you know if there is truth to this?
 
med2UCC said:
if you check through other posts on matching from the Irish programs, you will see that they defy the statistics and have an almost perfect match rate to Canada. This has been true for years, even before the current system of keeping a percentage of spots for IMG's. Of my class of 13, only one person did not match. The current grads had a 100% match rates from UCC. CaRMS means "everyone who trained outside of Canada of any age" when they say IMG. If they published separate stats for Ireland you would see some vastly different figures.
If you want a back-up plan, write the USMLE steps and apply to the US as well. Cheers,
M
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This is NOT true. It is not 100% as you say. I have seen the number 67% a lot around these boards...only 67% of Irish grads get matched, not 100% as you say.
It IS scary, don't give people false hopes please. Things have changed since you graduated.
 
iwantajob said:
How similar is the USMLE to the MCCQ and MCCEE exams? I don't want to live in the US but I might not have a choice if I don't get into Canada so I'll probably have to write the American exams at the same time. I've heard the Canadian ones are harder and I've also heard rumours that they are now starting to let people us USMLE in lieu of the Canadian version. Do you know if there is truth to this?
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I believe that only Ontario (maybe one other province too) accepts USMLE.
USMLE and MCCQ and MCCEE are not the same nor are they similar, you have to study for both separately.

The thing is....how are you going to do electives in both the US and Canada? Is there enough time to do this?!
 
I'm sure this has been explained before. The way the 67% statistic was calculated was by taking the entire Canadian student population (or was it those who applied) and seeing how many of them ended up in Canada. I know people who chose to go to the US for residency and that will drag down the percentage. If you choose to do a poll on graduates you will will likely see ~100% are in a residency training scheme be it in Europe, US, or Canada. For Canada specifically, the numbers are even better now than in years past.

The MCCEE IS similar to the USMLE (CK). The prep is almost the same.

Unless you are a dual citizen, you will have to write the EE even if you go the US route. You will want to write the QE I/II as well regardless of what you read which I don't want to go into right now.

Electives in both the US and Canada are very doable if you want to go that route.

Please read the posts in this forum. It seems like lots of it is being repeated again and again.
 
Arb said:
I'm sure this has been explained before. The way the 67% statistic was calculated was by taking the entire Canadian student population (or was it those who applied) and seeing how many of them ended up in Canada.
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This stat seems overly optimistic.

http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2010R1_MatchResults/IMGs by Region_1stand2nd Iteration_en.pdf

It is the match rate (e.g. the number of applicants who matched by region of graduation); note that for Europe the match rate was ~35% including everyone matched in both rounds. The overall IMG match rate was ~21%. Given that baseline, a 67% match rate seems unlikely (but if anybody's got real data, post it!)

The only other hard data that you can use is the Caper report; it tells you how many Irish grads were in Canadian residency programs (R1-R5) 2009-2010.

http://www.caper.ca/docs/pdf_2009-10_CAPER_Census.pdf (page 51)

The best thing would be for the schools to publish how many Canadian students they had, and how many matched somewhere. Otherwise this is all just guesswork.
 
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The 67% stat is not published but we were shown the data for it during a presentation by the Carms CEO. It was a while ago but from what I remember, it was basically an estimate based on the number of Canadian students graduating from Ireland and the number ending up in a Canadian residency (67%). It doesn't take into account the Canadians who went to the US or stayed in Europe so it doesn't mean that 33% went unmatched. Maybe they'll publish this soon or maybe they won't. The utility of such a study is debatable.

The Irish stats would likely be higher than 67%. If you look at the Match thread, Unch posted this year's UCC results and they have a 100% match rate (15/15) in Canada with specialties and locations listed. UCD also had a 100% match rate in Canada for those who chose to go to Canada. Not one student who wanted to match in Canada went unmatched. Trinity also had a 100% match rate. Now why do you think 67% is optimistic?
 
Arb said:
The 67% stat is not published but we were shown the data for it during a presentation by the Carms CEO. It was a while ago but from what I remember, it was basically an estimate based on the number of Canadian students graduating from Ireland and the number ending up in a Canadian residency (67%). It doesn't take into account the Canadians who went to the US or stayed in Europe so it doesn't mean that 33% went unmatched. Maybe they'll publish this soon or maybe they won't. The utility of such a study is debatable.

The Irish stats would likely be higher than 67%. If you look at the Match thread, Unch posted this year's UCC results and they have a 100% match rate (15/15) in Canada with specialties and locations listed. UCD also had a 100% match rate in Canada for those who chose to go to Canada. Not one student who wanted to match in Canada went unmatched. Trinity also had a 100% match rate. Now why do you think 67% is optimistic?
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Was trinity really 100%, I only heard of one person who matched from there. If he was the only one who applied then I don't think that should be a good sample...especially that he got into Ortho surgery, makes it very suspicious (could he have had some connections in high places?). Makes me wonder what happened to the other 20+ people who are at Trinity, why didnt they apply?
 
Arb said:
The 67% stat is not published but we were shown the data for it during a presentation by the Carms CEO. It was a while ago but from what I remember, it was basically an estimate based on the number of Canadian students graduating from Ireland and the number ending up in a Canadian residency (67%). It doesn't take into account the Canadians who went to the US or stayed in Europe so it doesn't mean that 33% went unmatched. Maybe they'll publish this soon or maybe they won't. The utility of such a study is debatable.

The Irish stats would likely be higher than 67%. If you look at the Match thread, Unch posted this year's UCC results and they have a 100% match rate (15/15) in Canada with specialties and locations listed. UCD also had a 100% match rate in Canada for those who chose to go to Canada. Not one student who wanted to match in Canada went unmatched. Trinity also had a 100% match rate. Now why do you think 67% is optimistic?
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I would expect the Irish schools to be boasting these numbers to attract Canadian students . . . but they're not.

I would expect Atlantic Bridge to be distributing these stats to attract applicants . . . but they're not.

CaRMS is said to have this data (although how they could figure out how many Canadians were studying in Ireland if they didn't apply to CaRMS is beyond me) . . . but it's not published.

I'm way past the CaRMS stage of my life, but I remember how stressful it was. It's hard not to want to believe if what you're being told is great news. But people have shown that CaRMS data presented to students has contained significant statistical errors (or deceptions, depending on how pissed off you are about it). So what I'm saying is take all of this unofficial / internet data with a grain of salt. If it sounds too good to be true . . . .
 
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True, take everything with a grain of salt but that doesn't really apply in this case. The "statistic" is just X number of Canadian Irish grads in PGY1/ Y number of Canadians graduating from Irish schools = 67% (from what I remember). No need to dredge up conspiracy theories here.

As mentioned before:

1. Irish schools do not know where their students match so they don't have any data to publish. They also certainly do not need to attract applicants. I haven't even seen an advertisement for Irish medical schools like you see for Caribbean schools.

2. Atlantic Bridge does not have this data. They have whatever the students are willing to divulge. They do not need to advertise to attract applicants.

As for Trinity, this year was unique. Only 1 person applied for FIRST round CaRMs. There are reasons why people want to only do SECOND round but I don't know if their students went that route. Who knows how many went the US route but I heard a few wanted to do intern year in Ireland to obtain privileges for the rest of the EU. There were other students who matched Ortho as well including an Ortho SHO from UCD so it's not fair to say this Trinity student had a helping hand.

What you should be worried about is the fact the schools don't care if you match or not. They will not go out of their way to help you out and getting things done can be a struggle. They will continue to get students from North America no matter what happens and their coffers will be filled.
 
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Handsome88 said:
This is NOT true. It is not 100% as you say. I have seen the number 67% a lot around these boards...only 67% of Irish grads get matched, not 100% as you say.
It IS scary, don't give people false hopes please. Things have changed since you graduated.
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I graduated 2 years ago. My friends graduated last year and this year. I am not giving false hope. We had one person unmatched out of 13, and he played the game poorly. The class of 2010 had all 16 match. No, it is not a 100% match rate every single year, but it is much higher than from the Carib schools or people trying to match from Pakistan and Iran.
The people who are throwing 67% are basing it on one presentation by CaRMS, who admit that it is only an estimate. My numbers are based on UCC's success in the years I was there and the 2 years since I graduated. Pretty much nothing has changed in those 2 years.
If you're going to attack, have your facts straight.
M
 
It would be helpful if CaRMS would provide a proper breakdown of the number of applicants/successful applicants on a country-by-country basis. I suspect most of the Canadian applicants from Ireland and the United Kingdom are successful in obtaining a residency position in Canada ....the percentage is decreased by the inclusion of Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, Greece, etc.

Same for Australia (included in Pacific Islands). There should be a country by country breakdown.

CaRMS will probably not do this for political reasons.

Also, as mentioned above, not all Canadian IMG grads return to Canada by choice.

Overall, it is best to train where you intend to live....so much easier.

Jane
GKT Kings College London (2008)
Radiology - Barts & the London (2010)
 
In my limited experience the 67% is likely close. The problem is that when Irish grads dont match, they fall hard, and mom and dad lose their savings/house. I really would take what CaRMS says, without publishing with a grain of salt.
 
As far as I remember, the 67% statistic was described as the number of Irish applicants who stayed in the match to its conclusion (up to the scramble) who matched to residency programs in Canada in 2008. Please correct me if you recollect differently.

67% did not take into account the number of students in Ireland who could have entered the match, and did not include those who matched in the States (they would have been removed from the match prior to Round 1 in 2008). That number also included re-applicants from Irish medical schools from previous years.

So for all intents and purposes, that 33% was 'unmatched' and I assume stayed in Ireland or the UK, went somewhere else not monitored by CaRMS like Aus, or continued doing whatever they've been doing since graduating.

I think that number is something to be concerned about; going abroad for medicine is far from a sure bet that you'll be able to return.

However, going to Ireland for med school gives you the best shot outside of the US and Canada. Additionally, Irish schools have, in my observations, done even better in the last two years. You can add RCSI to that 100% group mentioned in earlier postings. Every Canadian RCSI student who applied to the match this year (2010) matched in Canada. Some Canadians did go to the States but as a rule they did not enter the match (or withdrew at some stage prior to R-1). Every Canadian in RCSI 2010 has found a job somewhere.

The class of 2008 also had very different motivations entering the match. The ability to work in Ireland was a sure thing at that time and the projected salary was high (60,000-90,000 euro). Matching in the US also withdrew you from consideration in Canada as their first round ran before the Canadian equivallent (now round one runs first in Canada). Some students applying to Canada were planning to take a stab exclusively at the Canadian programs they really wanted, and to use the Irish intern year as a fall back and bridge to a wider application including the US the next year.

All of these factors may have affected the willingness of those Canadian applicants to apply broadly in Canada; which might have contributed to that 33% unmatched in 2008.
 
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jnuts said:
All of these factors may have affected the willingness of those Canadian applicants to apply broadly in Canada; which might have contributed to that 33% unmatched in 2008.
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The class of 2008 at UCC, of which I was a member, had one person in 13 not match that year of the Canadians. The sole American matched. 2 Canadians that year elected to stay in Ireland for intern year - one subsequently matched to pediatrics in Boston, the other to Surgery in San Francisco. 2 Canadian students elected to match to the US, one to internal medicine (and has since regained sanity and switched into psych) and the other to general surgery. One student of the 13 in my year elected to take a year off and live in Australia. That individual subsequently matched to psych in Canada on his 1st try.
So, of the 13 people in my year, all but one matched into a program they liked on their 1st try at the match. Not everyone got exactly what they wanted - we had one trying for derm, a tough go since there was one IMG dern spot that year, and one trying for rads, also unsuccessfully, although the next year our budding radiologist made it - but everyone got something they could be content with, except our one nonmatcher.
3 Canadians opted to wait a year before applying to the match and 4 ultimately elected to go to the US (2 in 2008 and 2 in 2009 after intern year).
These are not horrifyingly bad stats, when you consider that each year Canadian trained Canadian citizens also fail to match through failure to play the game correctly. Ask your Canadian med school friends; they can all quote you at least one object lesson from their programs.
Cheers,
M
 
I'm just wondering, where in Canada do the canadian IMGs match? Is it harder to match in Ontario (Toronto)?
 
So, again using my n=1 of my graduating class, 2 matched to FM in Nova Scotia, 1 matched to Population Health at Mac, 1 matched to IM at Mac, 1 matched to FM in Toronto, 1 matched to FM in Regina, 1 matched to Path in Newfoundland, 1 matched to Psych in Nova Scotia, 1 matched to paeds in Boston, 1 matched to gen surg in New York, 1 matched to IM in Detroit, 1 matched to gen surg in San Francisco.
The year ahead of us was 4 people, 2 of whom did intern year in Ireland for partner related reasons. 1 matched to OBGYN in Toronto, the other to FM at MUN. After intern year the other 2 matched to FM at MUN and anaesthetics in Saskatchewan.
Of the people I contacted in the following year, 1 matched to rads in Ottawa and 1 to Ortho at McGill.
There are more IMG spots in Ontario than in the rest of Canada combined, so your odds of matching to Ontario are higher than to anywhere else in Canada. However, I wouldn't plan to be in Toronto and nowhere else, or you will likely end up being nowhere. Even Canadian grads have to have a back-up plan.
For those of you who are going to chime in with a chorus of "They only matched to FM, psych and IM how horrible" and "Look at all those people who matched to the boondocks Ireland is terrible don't go aaugh!!!!!", most of us chose the boondocks voluntarily. I am from the boondocks and rather like it here, and for some of the people who matched, why, their boondocks community was larger than their community of origin. Those of you who think that Toronto is the centre of the universe might want to explore the rest of this great country with an open mind. Cheers,
M
 
Are the class sizes still that small in Ireland?

Canadians in Australia have done well previously in CARMS, but the numbers are about to explode. UQ graduated 11 Canadians two years ago and has ~80 Canadians in the 2nd year class. Sydney and Melbourne also boosted their numbers, but I'm not sure by how much. So the numbers of Canadians matching from Australia will likely go up, but the rate will decrease. Whether or not Irish schools have increased similarly or not, they will have a much more difficult time matching simply because there are more Canadians abroad.

You can debate whether Canadian PD's like students from Ireland or Australia forever, but it's all hearsay. The difference is likely negligible. And Australian schools have significantly more links with Canadians now than in previous years, so their odds will definitely increase.


As an aside, the increase in CSA's is much greater than the increase in IMG spots. CSA's will continue to match to a greater number of spots than non-CSA applicants and will match over them before Irish match over Aussies or vice versa.
 
BoyInTheBubble said:
As an aside, the increase in CSA's is much greater than the increase in IMG spots.
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The number of designated IMG spots in the first-round CaRMS match have decreased by 4% year over year for the last few years.
 
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Giemsa said:
The number of designated IMG spots in the first-round CaRMS match have decreased by 4% year over year for the last few years.
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298 in 07, 353 in 08, 392 in 09, 380 in '10.

Slight decrease this year (less than 4%). It's all on the carms website. And their figures don't count the AIMG program, so that adds roughly 50 spots.
 
BoyInTheBubble said:
298 in 07, 353 in 08, 392 in 09, 380 in '10.

Slight decrease this year (less than 4%). It's all on the carms website. And their figures don't count the AIMG program, so that adds roughly 50 spots.
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Interestingly, this article put it at a 6% drop (not 4%). This article quotes the 4% drop (along with other interesting factoids about this year's match).

AIMG results
2010 - 41
2009 - 56
2008 - 47
2007 - 48
 
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Giemsa said:
You're counting the number of IMGs who matched, not the number of first round offered positions.

What's the AIMG program?
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In the first round 2008, 216 matched out of 219 designated places. 353 matched overall.

In the first round 2009, 225 matched out of 236 designated places. 392 matched overall.

In the first round 2010, 274 matched (229 designated spots plus manitoba and quebec). 380 overall.

Alberta IMG program runs separately from the CARMS match. The numbers are not included in the CARMS stats. You have to be from Alberta and go through a ridiculous 'externship'. I'm not from there so I don't keep up with it but they offer roughly 50 places. (The people that go through the program might be able to apply to the 2nd iteration of CARMS spots at UofA and UofC, not sure though.)
 
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BoyInTheBubble said:
In the first round 2008, 216 of 219. 353 overall.

In the first round 2009, 225 of 236. 392 overall.

In the first round 2010, 274 matched (229 designated spots plus manitoba and quebec). 380 overall.

Alberta IMG program runs separately from the CARMS match.
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Designated first round IMG spots (excluding AIMG) - Matched

2010 - 229 (-3%) .- matched 380 (-3%)
2009 - 236 (+7%) - matched 392 (+10%)
2008 - 219 . . . . . - matched 353

Maybe the 4-6% quoted includes the AIMG spots. But it does look like the drop is only one year old - it will be interesting to see if the IMG numbers drop again in 2011, or stay the same, or increase.
 
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