SMPs: A Necessary Evil for Some Medical School Applicants or a Scam?

[Ox King]

For some lower-GPA/ok-higher MCAT applicants, they are recommended to do SMPs to show adcoms that they can handle medical school level coursework. From what I understand, they take medical school level courses for A/B/C/D instead of P/F or H/P/F like normal medical students. If they end up getting accepted, they end up retaking those courses anyway, which is kind of redundant. If they don't get accepted, they have a worthless degree.

However, an SMP purely serves that purpose. To get applicants into medical school. It provides no useful skills like an MS in chemistry or or an MS in engineering. This degree seems like a cash cow for medical schools.

How is it ethical for medical schools to make so much money off these degrees when something more standardized, the MCAT, exists which could address a low GPA?

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[Lucca]

For some lower-GPA/ok-higher MCAT applicants, they are recommended to do SMPs to show adcoms that they can handle medical school level coursework. From what I understand, they take medical school level courses for A/B/C/D instead of P/F or H/P/F like normal medical students. If they end up getting accepted, they end up retaking those courses anyway, which is kind of redundant. If they don't get accepted, they have a worthless degree.

However, an SMP purely serves that purpose. To get applicants into medical school. It provides no useful skills like an MS in chemistry or or an MS in engineering. This degree seems like a cash cow for medical schools.

How is it ethical for medical schools to make so much money off these degrees when something more standardized, the MCAT, exists which could address a low GPA?

On the other hand, he MCAT tests a small number of subjects on one day and the concern adcoms express is that they want a more continuous evaluation of academic performance. GPA after all, supposedly, measures academic success over a whole semester and then a year and then 4 years etc. Med schools are kind of stuck in between a rock and a hard place in that graduate school courses are typically inflated and aimed at reaching a very different set of skills than the hard grind and content chugging skills that medical schools will expect from their medical students. Post-Baccs are still an option and they are an alternative to the SMP path.

Is it ethical to charge money for this? Yah, it is.

 

[DokterMom]

Plenty of exceptionally bright (high MCAT) students can't sustain consistently-high performance levels (high GPA) for any number of reasons -- personality, psychological issues, character flaws, substance abuse, etc. Those students are unlikely to succeed in medical school, so need to be identified and weeded out.

 

[Officer Farva]

On the other hand, he MCAT tests a small number of subjects on one day and the concern adcoms express is that they want a more continuous evaluation of academic performance. GPA after all, supposedly, measures academic success over a whole semester and then a year and then 4 years etc. Med schools are kind of stuck in between a rock and a hard place in that graduate school courses are typically inflated and aimed at reaching a very different set of skills than the hard grind and content chugging skills that medical schools will expect from their medical students. Post-Baccs are still an option and they are an alternative to the SMP path.

Is it ethical to charge money for this? Yah, it is.

I'm with @Ox King, and not because he is Goku's father in law. No offense, but you make it sound like anyone is capable of scoring a 35+ on the MCAT. GPA is variable, but standardized testing is standardized. I have met 4.0s at my local state school who can't crack a 30 on the MCAT.

The MCAT is the most cost effective way to address concerns by low GPA candidates without going into serious debt for a degree of questionable worth that may or may not get them into medical school. I am voting scam.

 

[heybubbaa]

I'm with @Ox King, and not because he is Goku's father in law. No offense, but you make it sound like anyone is capable of scoring a 35+ on the MCAT. GPA is variable, but standardized testing is standardized. I have met 4.0s at my local state school who can't crack a 30 on the MCAT.

The MCAT is the most cost effective way to address concerns by low GPA candidates without going into serious debt for a degree of questionable worth that may or may not get them into medical school.

That may be true, but for those of us with serious gpa damage, it is implausible that we would make it past the aut0screen without a strong performance in an SMP. But even so, I didn't jump into an SMP without doing my research, and even though I had a MCAT in the 100%, every school that I spoke with strongly recommended an SMP.

 

[Mansamusa]

It's unethical in the same way that unregulated rent is unethical. Both situations provide a service, but that doesn't mean they aren't exploiting students.

I think many students who jump into a SMP are desperate and do not really sit down and work out the financial consequences of what they are doing (unless they are rich and can just do whatever they want). If you have $20K in undergrad debt + $320K for med school + $60K for SMP, that is $400K before interest (obviously this can vary, but the SMP students I know are all pushing $400K and above). Then Temple's post-bac w/ guaranteed admissions can only be paid with private loans. I've met a student who is paying the entire year in private loans! She is gonna be screwed when she graduates

Schools have no problem preying on naive students for their money and the government has no problem freely handing loans out.

SMPs can help people get into med school, but there are much better ways of providing redemption. Like the DO replacement or only counting your last 2 years of full-time study.

 

[Ox King]

That may be true, but for those of us with serious gpa damage, it is implausible that we would make it past the aut0screen without a strong performance in an SMP. But even so, I didn't jump into an SMP without doing my research, and even though I had a MCAT in the 100%, every school that I spoke with strongly recommended an SMP.

I'm pretty curious. Do schools not incorporate a combination of MCAT and GPA into autoscreens, like LizzyM scores, instead of 2 screens. It sounds like the schools might be at their own disadvantage on missing out on people like you with genius MCAT scores!

 

[JustAPhD]

The only problem* I have with SMPs is that I've seen students, desperate to go to med school, disregard their advisers and go into a SMP when they clearly aren't prepared for it. They do poorly and are now effectively screwed.



*Of course this isn't actually a problem with SMPs, but more so how some premeds view them as a quick way into med school (as opposed to doing a traditional post-back/ grad replacement for DO).

 

[Officer Farva]

It's unethical in the same way that unregulated rent is unethical. Both situations provide a service, but that doesn't mean they aren't exploiting students.

I think many students who jump into a SMP are desperate and do not really sit down and work out the financial consequences of what they are doing (unless they are rich and can just do whatever they want). If you have $20K in undergrad debt + $320K for med school + $60K for SMP, that is $400K before interest (obviously this can vary, but the SMP students I know are all pushing $400K and above). Then Temple's post-bac w/ guaranteed admissions can only be paid with private loans. I've met a student who is paying the entire year in private loans! She is gonna be screwed when she graduates

Schools have no problem preying on naive students for their money and the government has no problem freely handing loans out.

SMPs can help people get into med school, but there are much better ways of providing redemption. Like the DO replacement or only counting your last 2 years of full-time study.

WOW. They should seriously do a 60 minutes piece on debt, specifically medical student debt.

 

[Med Ed]

However, an SMP purely serves that purpose. To get applicants into medical school. It provides no useful skills like an MS in chemistry or or an MS in engineering. This degree seems like a cash cow for medical schools.

How is it ethical for medical schools to make so much money off these degrees when something more standardized, the MCAT, exists which could address a low GPA?

There is nothing inherently unethical about offering to opportunity to achieve an end goal. If a given SMP misleads potential applicants about the likelihood of success, or admits people who do not have a realistic chance of success, then we get into murkier waters.

I will echo what has been said above, there are many applicants with inconsistent undergraduate performances, and even with a good MCAT score the fundamental question in committee is "Can this person handle the work?" SMP's are one way to answer that question with more confidence.

 

[GrapesofRath]

How is it ethical for medical schools to make so much money off these degrees when something more standardized, the MCAT, exists which could address a low GPA?

A school is selling a product. For some, it is a product that they need, that is a chance to
overcome years of mediocre undergrad performance and a chance to get into an MD school. The price....an SMP and 50k

As with everything in life, you decide if the price of something is worth what it will give you. For many people, the answer is yes as they wouldnt get into an MD school without an SMP. Ethics are completely irrelevant here; it's a matter of a business selling a product and you deciding if it is worth the cost. No different than deciding if that loaf of bread at the bakery or that scotch at the liquor store is worth the price they are charging you.

Also as an FYI the low GPA/high MCAT combo is much much much less common than the high GPA/low MCAT combo. Hence, it's important to analyze the factors behind an unusual performance.

 

[VaioSson]

I agree with @Officer Farva in that the MCAT has merit in its context and is obviously less prone to variations compared to GPA. As has been stated many times over on SDN, GPA needs to be taken with a grain of salt due to differences in institutions, professors, and majors/course of study.

I would argue that the MCAT still requires a certain amount of dedication and persistence, since the breath of content is quite broad.

I feel like any thread that even remotely argues about GPA and MCAT eventually turns into a heated debate about which one is more reliable 🙂

 

[Mansamusa]

A school is selling a product. For some, it is a product that they need, that is a chance to
overcome years of mediocre undergrad performance and a chance to get into an MD school. The price....an SMP and 50k

As with everything in life, you decide if the price of something is worth what it will give you. For many people, the answer is yes as they wouldnt get into an MD school without an SMP. Ethics are completely irrelevant here; it's a matter of a business selling a product and you deciding if it is worth the cost. No different than deciding if that loaf of bread at the bakery or that scotch at the liquor store is worth the price they are charging you.

I think a better analogy would be an alcoholic in a liquor store who had access to an unlimited supply of government loans

 

[Officer Farva]

A school is selling a product. For some, it is a product that they need, that is a chance to
overcome years of mediocre undergrad performance and a chance to get into an MD school. The price....an SMP and 50k?

As with everything in life, you decide if the price of something is worth what it will give you. For many people, the answer is yes as they wouldnt get into an MD school without an SMP. Ethics are completely irrelevant here; it's a matter of a business selling a product and you deciding if it is worth the cost. No different than deciding if that loaf of bread at the bakery or that scotch at the liquor store is worth the price they are charging you.

However, the product they are selling can easily be replaced by spending less money by preparing for the MCAT and acing the MCAT. This degree really provides little to no skills for the POSSIBILITY of getting into a medical school. That's what I find unethical on the part of medical schools.

I love how when people think of Wall Street, they think of money and greed. However, when universities are also greedy, people look the other way. Universities can be just as unethical as people like Bernie Madoff.

Non-profit institution my ***.

 

[piii]

It's like asking whether it's unethical for engineering programs to charge 30k for a masters, or virtually any other masters program with tuition... They each have a goal, and charge tuition for that goal. Of course it's marked up for profit. What isn't? What a fantastic insight on morality!

Anyway I would have gotten accepted without an SMP, and then doing well in it. I'm a strong supporter of keeping people informed about these programs, and I've encouraged many students with boarder line GPAs to pursue cheaper post bac options instead.

 

[22031 Alum]

Plenty of exceptionally bright (high MCAT) students can't sustain consistently-high performance levels (high GPA) for any number of reasons -- personality, psychological issues, character flaws, substance abuse, etc. Those students are unlikely to succeed in medical school, so need to be identified and weeded out.

Just quoting this because it is so true.

 

[Ox King]

Just quoting this because it is so true.

Plenty of exceptionally bright (high MCAT) students can't sustain consistently-high performance levels (high GPA) for any number of reasons -- personality, psychological issues, character flaws, substance abuse, etc. Those students are unlikely to succeed in medical school, so need to be identified and weeded out.

As a very high MCAT/okish but acceptable GPA applicant, I can assure you that my MCAT does not match my GPA not because of any personality, character, psychological, or substance abuse flaws.

I went to a top engineering school, and 4.0s are not given out like they are at touch-feely liberal arts schools for liberal arts majors. I was prepared so well in terms of education, my 3.4 translated to a top score on the MCAT with minimal effort on my part.

That is why the MCAT is the ultimate equalizer above grades and SMPs in my opinion. I got by fine without a postbac or SMP to drag me more into debt.

 

[22031 Alum]

As a very high MCAT/okish but acceptable GPA applicant, I can assure you that my MCAT does not match my GPA not because of any personality, character, psychological, or substance abuse flaws.

I went to a top engineering school, and 4.0s are not given out like they are at touch-feely liberal arts schools for liberal arts majors. I was prepared so well in terms of education, my 3.4 translated to a top score on the MCAT with minimal effort on my part.

That is why the MCAT is the ultimate equalizer above grades and SMPs in my opinion. I got by fine without a postbac or SMP to drag me more into debt.

Oh dear, I guess @DokterMom shouldn't have said that was the case for every single applicant without exception.

Oh wait. She didn't. Plenty doesn't mean all. It's great that you did fine, but SOME applicants need to show some consistency and prove themselves.

 

[Med Ed]

I'm pretty curious. Do schools not incorporate a combination of MCAT and GPA into autoscreens, like LizzyM scores, instead of 2 screens. It sounds like the schools might be at their own disadvantage on missing out on people like you with genius MCAT scores!

Every adcom I am aware of has separate cutoffs for GPA and MCAT.

If you examine Table A-23, the low-GPA "genius MCAT" applicants you speak of are exceedingly rare. They do get in, albeit at a somewhat lower rate than average.

I am not sure I would say we are "missing out" on anyone. We all know people who are highly intelligent but fail to apply themselves, and a low GPA/high MCAT combination brings them to mind. The problem for them is that they are competing against a huge pool of people with consistent performance characteristics.

 

[Med Ed]

As a very high MCAT/okish but acceptable GPA applicant, I can assure you that my MCAT does not match my GPA not because of any personality, character, psychological, or substance abuse flaws.

I went to a top engineering school, and 4.0s are not given out like they are at touch-feely liberal arts schools for liberal arts majors. I was prepared so well in terms of education, my 3.4 translated to a top score on the MCAT with minimal effort on my part.

That is why the MCAT is the ultimate equalizer above grades and SMPs in my opinion. I got by fine without a postbac or SMP to drag me more into debt.

A 3.4 from a top engineering school is not "okish but acceptable." You should reevaluate your starting assumptions.

 

[JustAPhD]

Every adcom I am aware of has separate cutoffs for GPA and MCAT.

If you examine Table A-23, the low-GPA "genius MCAT" applicants you speak of are exceedingly rare. They do get in, albeit at a somewhat lower rate than average.

I am not sure I would say we are "missing out" on anyone. We all know people who are highly intelligent but fail to apply themselves, and a low GPA/high MCAT combination brings them to mind. The problem for them is that they are competing against a huge pool of people with consistent performance.

I'm just curious how much money that one applicant's parents donated to get their child into med school with a 3.40-3.59 GPA and a 5-14 MCAT.

 

[Ox King]

A 3.4 from a top engineering school is not "okish but acceptable." You should reevaluate your starting assumptions.

I'm sorry, I can't tell if you mean it is great or not great?

 

[Officer Farva]

I'm sorry, I can't tell if you mean it is great or not great?

You have the Office Farva seal of approval, so you are a champion in my book. Say hi to Master Roshi and ChiChi for me.

 

[GrapesofRath]

I'm sorry, I can't tell if you mean it is great or not great?

The fact more than half of people with 3.4/36+ get into an Md school who apply should make the answer rather obvious. This rate goes up even more when you look at % of applicants with these stats admitted from these top schools that release such data like WashU or Cornell.

3.4/38 aren't the type of people Doktermom was referring to. Try 2.9/40.

 

[DokterMom]

As a very high MCAT/okish but acceptable GPA applicant, I can assure you that my MCAT does not match my GPA not because of any personality, character, psychological, or substance abuse flaws.

I went to a top engineering school, and 4.0s are not given out like they are at touch-feely liberal arts schools for liberal arts majors. I was prepared so well in terms of education, my 3.4 translated to a top score on the MCAT with minimal effort on my part.

That is why the MCAT is the ultimate equalizer above grades and SMPs in my opinion. I got by fine without a postbac or SMP to drag me more into debt.

And you would be (and clearly were) one of those students where Ad Coms were able to see behind the OKish GPA to the reality of difficult courses and stringent grading. At your university, your OKish GPA DID, in fact, reflect a history of consistent strong performance. For you, an SMP was unnecessary and would probably have been a waste of time and money.

Now take the example of a student at a grade-inflating university who was not able to consistently get his/her stuff together and perform well academically. Maybe it was laziness. Maybe it was substance abuse. Maybe it was personal problems that overwhelmed the applicant. Maybe it was immaturity or a lack of focus. Those are issues that can and do interfere with success in medical school. And for those applicants, a SMP can demonstrate that whatever the issues were in undergrad, the applicant has learned to overcome them and is a low-risk prospect for medical school.

 

[Med Ed]

I'm sorry, I can't tell if you mean it is great or not great?

When people in my circle talk about applicants with low GPA's, they usually mean a bio majors with <3.0.

You went to a very tough school, majored in a very tough subject, and came out very well, well enough to nail the MCAT and get into medical school. Sorry, but you are not the poster child for unbalanced metrics, nor a case study in the validity of the MCAT.

The worst thing about your path is that you will be stereotyped as someone who thinks concretely and has lousy interpersonal skills.

 

[Ox King]

The fact more than half of people with 3.4/36+ get into an Md school who apply should make the answer rather obvious. This rate goes up even more when you look at % of applicants with these stats admitted from these top schools that release such data like WashU or Cornell.

3.4/38 aren't the type of people Doktermom was referring to. Try 2.9/40.

And you would be (and clearly were) one of those students where Ad Coms were able to see behind the OKish GPA to the reality of difficult courses and stringent grading. At your university, your OKish GPA DID, in fact, reflect a history of consistent strong performance. For you, an SMP was unnecessary and would probably have been a waste of time and money.

Now take the example of a student at a grade-inflating university who was not able to consistently get his/her stuff together and perform well academically. Maybe it was laziness. Maybe it was substance abuse. Maybe it was personal problems that overwhelmed the applicant. Maybe it was immaturity or a lack of focus. Those are issues that can and do interfere with success in medical school. And for those applicants, a SMP can demonstrate that whatever the issues were in undergrad, the applicant has learned to overcome them and is a low-risk prospect for medical school.

My apologies, I understand.

When people in my circle talk about applicants with low GPA's, they usually mean a bio majors with <3.0.

You went to a very tough school, majored in a very tough subject, and came out very well, well enough to nail the MCAT and get into medical school. Sorry, but you are not the poster child for unbalanced metrics, nor a case study in the validity of the MCAT.

The worst thing about your path is that you will be stereotyped as someone who thinks concretely and has lousy interpersonal skills.

 

[heysnow]

Plenty of exceptionally bright (high MCAT) students can't sustain consistently-high performance levels (high GPA) for any number of reasons -- personality, psychological issues, character flaws, substance abuse, etc. Those students are unlikely to succeed in medical school, so need to be identified and weeded out.

When people in my circle talk about applicants with low GPA's, they usually mean a bio majors with <3.0.

You went to a very tough school, majored in a very tough subject, and came out very well, well enough to nail the MCAT and get into medical school. Sorry, but you are not the poster child for unbalanced metrics, nor a case study in the validity of the MCAT.

The worst thing about your path is that you will be stereotyped as someone who thinks concretely and has lousy interpersonal skills.

I have been laughed out of my pre-health advisors office due to my GPAs when I approached him after sophomore year about my intentions about going to medical school. Even on here it seems that GPAs around 3.4-5 will hurt for MD schools.

Is there a way to communicate that my earlier poor grades were more due to a lack of effort and poor choices? I did do well my senior year and hope to show through this that I can handle the rigors of medical school.

FWIW, these are my stats.

I wanted to address it through my PS somewhere but have been advised against writing a PS about this so I'm not sure where I'd address this. I definitely didn't have any severe mental health issues or substance abuse problems.

 

[Mansamusa]

I have been laughed out of my pre-health advisors office due to my GPAs when I approached him after sophomore year about my intentions about going to medical school. Even on here it seems that GPAs around 3.4-5 will hurt for MD schools.

Is there a way to communicate that my earlier poor grades were more due to a lack of effort and poor choices? I did do well my senior year and hope to show through this that I can handle the rigors of medical school.

FWIW, these are my stats.

I wanted to address it through my PS somewhere but have been advised against writing a PS about this so I'm not sure where I'd address this. I definitely didn't have any severe mental health issues or substance abuse problems.

You're good. I've gotten multiple acceptances with a lower GPA and lower MCAT. Just come up with a good school list

 

[GrapesofRath]

Edit

 

[7331poas]

As a very high MCAT/okish but acceptable GPA applicant, I can assure you that my MCAT does not match my GPA not because of any personality, character, psychological, or substance abuse flaws.

I went to a top engineering school, and 4.0s are not given out like they are at touch-feely liberal arts schools for liberal arts majors. I was prepared so well in terms of education, my 3.4 translated to a top score on the MCAT with minimal effort on my part.

That is why the MCAT is the ultimate equalizer above grades and SMPs in my opinion. I got by fine without a postbac or SMP to drag me more into debt.

Top engineering schools also have insane curves and grading scales. I know because I attended one. If you couldn't maintain a high GPA then that's on you. There were other students in your program who did maintain a high GPA.

 

[Lawpy]

As a very high MCAT/okish but acceptable GPA applicant, I can assure you that my MCAT does not match my GPA not because of any personality, character, psychological, or substance abuse flaws.

I went to a top engineering school, and 4.0s are not given out like they are at touch-feely liberal arts schools for liberal arts majors. I was prepared so well in terms of education, my 3.4 translated to a top score on the MCAT with minimal effort on my part.

That is why the MCAT is the ultimate equalizer above grades and SMPs in my opinion. I got by fine without a postbac or SMP to drag me more into debt.

Why does your status say Medical Student? And the MCAT is very susceptible to cultural/SES biases, so it isnt an ultimate/perfect equalizer. People with more resources will generally prep better and do well. This is why having a strong GPA (long term trends) and a strong MCAT (standardized, short-term deal) is an essential combination

 

[GrapesofRath]

Why does your status say Medical Student? And the MCAT is very susceptible to cultural/SES biases, so it isnt an ultimate/perfect equalizer. People with more resources will generally prep better and do well. This is why having a strong GPA (long term trends) and a strong MCAT (standardized, short-term deal) is an essential combination

Obviously the general point is right here I'll just point out tough Cultural/SES biases are at least as prevalent in GPA and other measures medical school used to evaluate applicants. I'd argue the bias is actually lowest in the MCAT which is an aptitude and skills based test(with skills being developed over a lifetime) where making significant improvements past a point is repeatedly shown to be unlikely.

 

[Ox King]

Why does your status say Medical Student? And the MCAT is very susceptible to cultural/SES biases, so it isnt an ultimate/perfect equalizer. People with more resources will generally prep better and do well. This is why having a strong GPA (long term trends) and a strong MCAT (standardized, short-term deal) is an essential combination

I never had the option to make a Medical Student (accepted) status, IDK how.

I disagree about cultural/SES bias on the MCAT. My family immigrated here. I got my MCAT prep second-hand off of a kind friend. I saved up money and brought the AAMC practice tests online. I did not spend thousands on tutors and MCAT classes, however people with the money should feel welcome and free to do that!

 

[Lawpy]

I never had the option to make a Medical Student (accepted) status, IDK how.

I disagree about cultural/SES bias on the MCAT. My family immigrated here. I got my MCAT prep second-hand off of a kind friend. I saved up money and brought the AAMC practice tests online. I did not spend thousands on tutors and MCAT classes, however people with the money should feel welcome and free to do that!

Wait, if you got into medical school with a low GPA/high MCAT, what exactly are your concerns? Because this whole discussion seems moot

 

[Ox King]

Wait, if you got into medical school with a low GPA/high MCAT, what exactly are your concerns? Because this whole discussion seems moot

My bad, this entire thread got off discussion. None of that.

I was mainly concerned with SMPs being kind of scammy, when the MCAT exists that serves as an equalizer among candidates. Why spend all that money on an SMP when you could get a bunch of MCAT prep and crush it?

The SMP is pure profit, and provides no useful skill other than maybe getting admission.

 

[Lawpy]

My bad, this entire thread got off discussion. None of that.

I was mainly concerned with SMPs being kind of scammy, when the MCAT exists that serves as an equalizer among candidates. Why spend all that money on an SMP when you could get a bunch of MCAT prep and crush it?

The SMP is pure profit, and provides no useful skill other than maybe getting admission.

Oh so its just speculation on various things in general. And i agree to an extent that SMPs are way too risky, because you need to beat a large fraction of MS1s to do well. SMPs are pricey, and most probably are scams. This is why the only good SMPs are the list @GrapesofRath provided often (i think Cincinatti, BU, Tufts, Georgetown). But good SMPs come at a large cost

So yeah, i wouldnt recommend SMP, but a low GPA with numerous credits cant be easily improved, and a very strong MCAT (which only a very small fraction can achieve) can only partially compensate for a low GPA. It's a difficult situation

That's why i insist that such discussion is futile because you successfully got accepted to medical school. The SMP route and discussion is tragically a stressful one

 

[Gurby]

I disagree about cultural/SES bias on the MCAT. My family immigrated here. I got my MCAT prep second-hand off of a kind friend. I saved up money and brought the AAMC practice tests online. I did not spend thousands on tutors and MCAT classes, however people with the money should feel welcome and free to do that!

I don't know how anyone could argue that there's a bias given such stark and conclusive evidence to the contrary. Thank you for sharing.

 

[NorthOfBroad]

SMPs seem to really focus on their linkage agreements (which do not seem to be as guaranteed as they make them out to be), and then want to charge an arm and a leg selling an unlikely dream. This is America so as long as they do not lie (too much) they can keep on charging a ridiculous amount of money, nothing unethical or illegal there. Is it moral to prey on someone's dream and offer false hope? That's for everyone on their own to decide.

What really needs to happen is that advisers at universities need to be honest with low-stat applicants and tell them medical school isn't happening, and hopefully do it early. I went to a large state school and I saw it with a lot of programs in engineering, half the engineering class failing out in either chemistry or calculus because they lacked the high school preparation or simply intelligence to hack it in upper-level engineering courses. Yeah it sucked for them that the curve was so harsh, but ultimately the university did them a favor by saving them time and money from pursing a degree that wasn't going to happen. Hopefully, this can happen with med school one day too, it sucks to watch bio majors not get into med school and have no good career options right out of school.

 

[Officer Farva]

SMPs seem to really focus on their linkage agreements (which do not seem to be as guaranteed as they make them out to be), and then want to charge an arm and a leg selling an unlikely dream. This is America so as long as they do not lie (too much) they can keep on charging a ridiculous amount of money, nothing unethical or illegal there. Is it moral to prey on someone's dream and offer false hope? That's for everyone on their own to decide.

What really needs to happen is that advisers at universities need to be honest with low-stat applicants and tell them medical school isn't happening, and hopefully do it early. I went to a large state school and I saw it with a lot of programs in engineering, half the engineering class failing out in either chemistry or calculus because they lacked the high school preparation or simply intelligence to hack it in upper-level engineering courses. Yeah it sucked for them that the curve was so harsh, but ultimately they did them a favor by saving them time and money from pursing a degree that wasn't going to happen. Hopefully, this can happen with med school one day too, it sucks to watch bio majors not get into med school and have no good career options right out of school.

I agree, and think that universities need to be more tightly regulated by the government. If the SEC can regulate Wall Street tightly nowadays, so can the government with universities. Otherwise, they could potentially be as bad or worse than people like Bernie Madoff.

 

[Lawpy]

I don't know how anyone could argue that there's a bias given such stark and conclusive evidence to the contrary. Thank you for sharing.

I'm curious. What are the "stark and conclusive" evidence? You think access to more resources doesnt change MCAT outcomes?

 

[Gurby]

I'm curious. What are the "stark and conclusive" evidence? You think access to more resources doesnt change MCAT outcomes?

The "evidence" being the anecdotal experience of one person. I was trying to be snarky to convey sarcasm, but failed 🙁 Of course there's SES bias on the MCAT. There is SES bias associated with virtually everything in human society.

 

[Lawpy]

I was trying to be snarky to convey sarcasm, but failed 🙁 Of course there's SES bias on the MCAT. There is SES bias associated with virtually everything in human society.

I'll clarify my comments for anyone interested. I think people born to wealthy families inherently have much more access to wealth of information from the start. Families want to maintain and expand affluence so they will do anything they can to ensure their kids get the best tutoring and academic resources early on. As such, the kids who were so used to being academically shaped got so much exposure to critical thinking and analysis that they crush standardized exams in the long run.

This is all general trends though. Poor but hardworking families will also ensure their kids work hard and make them read books in the library. But environmental factors in general are so absolutely essential to ensure success regardless of disparities in social background

 

[Ox King]

The "evidence" being the anecdotal experience of one person. I was trying to be snarky to convey sarcasm, but failed 🙁 Of course there's SES bias on the MCAT. There is SES bias associated with virtually everything in human society.

Yea, but nothing is set in stone in life. I worked hard on my own and excelled on the MCAT. My daddy is not the head of a law firm, fortune 500 CEO, or investment banker. What about people like me who achieve on their own?

 

[Gurby]

Yea, but nothing is set in stone in life. I worked hard on my own and excelled on the MCAT. My daddy is not the head of a law firm, fortune 500 CEO, or investment banker. What about people like me who achieve on their own?

That means you're a badass and should be proud of yourself. But that doesn't mean there isn't a bias, and that in general people will do better in life with access to more resources as Lawper said.

 

[Goro]

You're correct, it's a risk. SMPs are merely auditions for med school.

And your point? The MCAT is not the be all and end all for predicting med school performance. The value of an SMP is that the Faculty giving it (like me) get to see people in action. The MCAT isn't going to tell you for a second that "this is a kid I want in our class".

For some lower-GPA/ok-higher MCAT applicants, they are recommended to do SMPs to show adcoms that they can handle medical school level coursework. From what I understand, they take medical school level courses for A/B/C/D instead of P/F or H/P/F like normal medical students. If they end up getting accepted, they end up retaking those courses anyway, which is kind of redundant. If they don't get accepted, they have a worthless degree.

However, an SMP purely serves that purpose. To get applicants into medical school. It provides no useful skills like an MS in chemistry or or an MS in engineering. This degree seems like a cash cow for medical schools.

How is it ethical for medical schools to make so much money off these degrees when something more standardized, the MCAT, exists which could address a low GPA?

 

[VaioSson]

Not to derail this thread but since it's been mentioned and eluded to in this thread already...

Does it seem like the ones who discount the value of "low" GPAs from historically rigorous institutions (and rigorous majors) are usually the ones with little to no actual experience being a student in such a rigorous undergraduate academic environment?

On the flip side, it seems like the ones who have actually studied in such rigorous institutions/majors attest to their real rigor.

Am I missing something here? Why does it seem like the only ones who claim that "rigorous institutions are actually not that rigorous" are the ones who have never attended those rigorous institutions? 🙂

 

[Officer Farva]

Not to derail this thread but since it's been mentioned and eluded to in this thread already...

Does it seem like the ones who discount the value of "low" GPAs from historically rigorous institutions (and rigorous majors) are usually the ones with little to no actual experience being a student in such a rigorous undergraduate academic environment?

On the flip side, it seems like the ones who have actually studied in such rigorous institutions/majors attest to their real rigor.

Am I missing something here? Why does it seem like the only ones who claim that "rigorous institutions are actually not that rigorous" are the ones who have never attended those rigorous institutions? 🙂

I am definitely not going to derail this thread, I just wanted to reply to you.

Common SDN dogma:
Organic chemistry at Midwestern Southern Tech State School of Agriculture is THE SAME DIFFICULTY LIKE at MIT.

I can personally attest that some universities are more rigorous than others. At one of my interviews a while ago, I was engaged in nonsense small talk with some other interviewees. We are talking about easy classes, one of them mentions genetics and how one of the questions on her final exam was "Provide the definition for gene" and "How is RNA different than DNA". In my genetics class, we were analyzing experimental data, mapping genes to chromosomes, and had a brief introduction to bioinformatics. Take from that what you will.

 

[22031 Alum]

Does it seem like the ones who discount the value of "low" GPAs from historically rigorous institutions (and rigorous majors) are usually the ones with little to no actual experience being a student in such a rigorous undergraduate academic environment?

Actually I think they're more likely to be the people who do have experience being a student in such an environment, and managed to do really well.

 

[Sgucci]

I think they're horrendously over-priced especially given the risks they have if you dont do well. Imagine paying all that cash for a nail in the coffin because you didn't obtain a really high gpa. post-baccs like bryn mawr on the otherhand are well-worth it.

Also for applicants with a decent mcat (28/29), which is irrationally considered bad for MD medical schools neither SMPs nor post-baccs benefit them enough so they're stuck between a rock and a hard place with no clear solution aside from retake.