So can we talk money?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

How much money are you making (or would make assuming you worked full-time)

  • $400k/year or more

    Votes: 26 16.3%
  • $300,000 to $399,000

    Votes: 28 17.5%
  • $250,000 to $299,000

    Votes: 27 16.9%
  • $200,000 to $249,000

    Votes: 44 27.5%
  • $150,000 to $199,000

    Votes: 20 12.5%
  • Less than $150k/year

    Votes: 15 9.4%

  • Total voters
    160
If you're going for Psych, think in the 200s, not 300s to 400s+. Any doctor can make $300K to $400K+ if they work "extra" in the "right city". What people want to know is the typical, majority income in Psych, and that, from what I've seen, sits in the $220K to $260K range for a full-time 8am to 5pm employed position these days.

The poll is a bit misleading because people are assuming it includes estimated benefits. We need a poll that asks straight salary for 8 to 5 work.

I agree 100%, but shouldn't we compare apples with apples then?

How many cardiologists and general surgeons work 8am to 5pm? If general surgeons worked 45hr weeks, I doubt their average salary would be around 300-350k, probably also sub-300.

Thats why I'm more impressed with salary stats from ENT/Derm, who probably do earn 400k-500k working 45 hours/week.

So same can be said about Psych. I'm sure there are Psychiatrists that put in cards hours, 55-60/week. Do these guys make 220-260k range? I'm sure they easily crack 350k, push 400k.
 
I agree 100%, but shouldn't we compare apples with apples then?

How many cardiologists and general surgeons work 8am to 5pm? If general surgeons worked 45hr weeks, I doubt their average salary would be around 300-350k, probably also sub-300.

Thats why I'm more impressed with salary stats from ENT/Derm, who probably do earn 400k-500k working 45 hours/week.

So same can be said about Psych. I'm sure there are Psychiatrists that put in cards hours, 55-60/week. Do these guys make 220-260k range? I'm sure they easily crack 350k, push 400k.

Now if we are talking about a PP model it really depends how long you are seeing pts for. If your seeing 100 ish pts just for med checks per week that would get you in the 300k area alone for say 45-46 weeks a year. The newer trend im seeing is slightly longer visits 20ish minutes but with therapy add ons for most patients. If your business savy and add TMS and suboxone to your PP I just dont see how you don't get into the 400k range. Remember most people dont do private practice these days. Couple this with the fact that even less are business inclined. My personal goal is around 55-60 hours a week and i just can't see with a busy practice how you dont hit 350-400k if your business savy, take insurance, and are in an area with high need. I'll know in the next few months as I start my own PP.
 
Now if we are talking about a PP model it really depends how long you are seeing pts for. If your seeing 100 ish pts just for med checks per week that would get you in the 300k area alone for say 45-46 weeks a year. The newer trend im seeing is slightly longer visits 20ish minutes but with therapy add ons for most patients. If your business savy and add TMS and suboxone to your PP I just dont see how you don't get into the 400k range. Remember most people dont do private practice these days. Couple this with the fact that even less are business inclined. My personal goal is around 55-60 hours a week and i just can't see with a busy practice how you dont hit 350-400k if your business savy, take insurance, and are in an area with high need. I'll know in the next few months as I start my own PP.

Sounds like you're quite motivated and you should do well. Post here and let us know how it goes, just like Fonzie did!
 
Sounds like you're quite motivated and you should do well. Post here and let us know how it goes, just like Fonzie did!

No slam against you pistolpete, but just a note. What medicaresucks describes is a relatively common schedule for surgical specialties/medical subpecialties (cards/GI). But in psychiatry, this type of schedule is described as "motivated" by the majority.

This is why psych will never be at the top of salary charts, because it attracts too many people wanting "lifestyle" (which I'm not saying is a bad thing at all, but should be noted by potential medical students choosing a career with reimbursement being a factor).

I posted in a different thread, the 2016 Medscape Compensation Reports are out. 73% of Psychiatrists work <45 hours/week. Thats ridiculous. That basically means 3/4 of psychiatrists never see a patient after 5pm or on weekends (for the most part).

Only the top 3 specialties like Derm/Ortho/Plastics can crack 400k working <45 hours/week. Even then you might have to adjust to where you are working (location, setup). I don't think you can crush 400k working 40hrs/week as a Dermatologist in LA/NYC area without doing Mohs. Perhaps in smalltown midwest.

Just some food for thought,
 
No slam against you pistolpete, but just a note. What medicaresucks describes is a relatively common schedule for surgical specialties/medical subpecialties (cards/GI). But in psychiatry, this type of schedule is described as "motivated" by the majority.

This is why psych will never be at the top of salary charts, because it attracts too many people wanting "lifestyle" (which I'm not saying is a bad thing at all, but should be noted by potential medical students choosing a career with reimbursement being a factor).

I posted in a different thread, the 2016 Medscape Compensation Reports are out. 73% of Psychiatrists work <45 hours/week. Thats ridiculous. That basically means 3/4 of psychiatrists never see a patient after 5pm or on weekends (for the most part).

Only the top 3 specialties like Derm/Ortho/Plastics can crack 400k working <45 hours/week. Even then you might have to adjust to where you are working (location, setup). I don't think you can crush 400k working 40hrs/week as a Dermatologist in LA/NYC area without doing Mohs. Perhaps in smalltown midwest.

Just some food for thought,

But is it reasonably easy for a psychiatrist to find the work to tack on an extra 10-20 week to get himself to the 50-60 hr/week range?

Or, are jobs that will add another 10-20 hours a week tough to come by/sought after by many other docs?
 
But is it reasonably easy for a psychiatrist to find the work to tack on an extra 10-20 week to get himself to the 50-60 hr/week range?

Or, are jobs that will add another 10-20 hours a week tough to come by/sought after by many other docs?
Yeah it's easy. I know a few CL/inpatient attendings that do extra hours in the evening (private practice) or do Psych ER shifts (8 or 12) on the weekend. Or some just pick up extra call.

But again this is the minority. Most of my attendings clock out by 4, and start around 9....so a few probably do 37 hrs/week.

I had one attending tell me his wife only lets him take call twice a month! I'm glad she didn't marry a general surgeon!!

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
 
Sounds like you're quite motivated and you should do well. Post here and let us know how it goes, just like Fonzie did!

I am very motivated. Also, when it is my practice it really doesn't feel like "work" when i make my own schedule and take vacation on my terms. One piece of advice as I'm hoping to be full throttle late July is to get your license, dea early on in your final year of residency. Some states with stupid fcvs make the process even longer. After that you have malpractice and insurance cred which all take time but you need the license and dea to even start that..Im still waiting for my medical license... also with boards thrown in there expect to set aside about 5000 bucks to cover all this.
 
Yeah it's easy. I know a few CL/inpatient attendings that do extra hours in the evening (private practice) or do Psych ER shifts (8 or 12) on the weekend. Or some just pick up extra call.

But again this is the minority. Most of my attendings clock out by 4, and start around 9....so a few probably do 37 hrs/week.

I had one attending tell me his wife only lets him take call twice a month! I'm glad she didn't marry a general surgeon!!

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

That's interesting. I was always leaning towards psychiatry, but wanted the chance to increase salary if I so desired. Thats good to know.

Reasonable to assume 50/hr week = 300k?
 
I am very motivated. Also, when it is my practice it really doesn't feel like "work" when i make my own schedule and take vacation on my terms. One piece of advice as I'm hoping to be full throttle late July is to get your license, dea early on in your final year of residency. Some states with stupid fcvs make the process even longer. After that you have malpractice and insurance cred which all take time but you need the license and dea to even start that..Im still waiting for my medical license... also with boards thrown in there expect to set aside about 5000 bucks to cover all this.

Sounds awesome. If you don't mind me asking, are you on one of the coasts, and how big is your city?
 
That's interesting. I was always leaning towards psychiatry, but wanted the chance to increase salary if I so desired. Thats good to know.

Reasonable to assume 50/hr week = 300k?


Well I'm just a resident, so not an expert. I just speak to my attendings a lot about these things. 50 hour week should be an easy 300k. I've seen job offers on recruiter sites for 350k, 40 hours/week. But these are usually in undesirable locations (ie. small town midwest) in undesirable work environments.

Here is the 2016 psych compensation report: http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/compensation/2016/psychiatry

and remember, its not just how much you earn, its also how much your malpractice is and overhead costs. Psych overhead costs is low, I think it is around 25-30% if you run private practice, but someone can correct me if I'm wrong.


Malpractice here in the NYC area is around 10k. Peanuts, compared to say....OBGYN (120-140k). So yeah, OBGYN may make 400k, but look at their malpractice fees + hours....horrendous.
 
hmmm... 280k is very very atypical for the seattle metro area. i know some people who've just signed up to a 280k job and the only way you could count it as "seattle metro" is by having a liberal definition as the only "academic affiliated" community hospital that pays that is hundreds of miles away on the other side of the state. I know of another job which again would have to liberally stretch the "seattle metro" area definition that pays 270k but it's hospitalist telepsychiatry including inpatients and ER consultation 7 on 7 off for 12 hours at a time....

Salaries have been increasing in the area quite a bit for psychiatry but we're talking getting above 200, not in the high 200s. also if a job needs a recruiter... it's because they can't find anyone to do it...

Maybe it's too good to be true, but if you are interested I can give you the recruiters contact. It's in a Seattle suburb--I checked.

Sometimes places that don't use recruiters are just more exploitative (academic etc)....
 
No slam against you pistolpete, but just a note. What medicaresucks describes is a relatively common schedule for surgical specialties/medical subpecialties (cards/GI). But in psychiatry, this type of schedule is described as "motivated" by the majority.

This is why psych will never be at the top of salary charts, because it attracts too many people wanting "lifestyle" (which I'm not saying is a bad thing at all, but should be noted by potential medical students choosing a career with reimbursement being a factor).

I posted in a different thread, the 2016 Medscape Compensation Reports are out. 73% of Psychiatrists work <45 hours/week. Thats ridiculous. That basically means 3/4 of psychiatrists never see a patient after 5pm or on weekends (for the most part).

Only the top 3 specialties like Derm/Ortho/Plastics can crack 400k working <45 hours/week. Even then you might have to adjust to where you are working (location, setup). I don't think you can crush 400k working 40hrs/week as a Dermatologist in LA/NYC area without doing Mohs. Perhaps in smalltown midwest.

Just some food for thought,

I'm sorry but that those hours are very misleading. That is quoting patient care hours. 40 hours of patient care hours is not something I would consider lifestyle!!! There is a slide right after that shows 10-14 additional hours of paperwork/administration up to 20+. I'm a 3rd year resident and see around 15-20 patient care hours but my work hours are closer to 50 (granted there are didactics, conferences, scholarly time). Also take a look at other specialities. For Internal Medicine, a notoriously workaholic specialty, 59% work less than 45 hours (patient care hours), but no sane person would call that a lifestyle specialty. Family Medicine apparently works same as psychiatry with 74% working less than 45 hours.
 
I'm sorry but that those hours are very misleading. That is quoting patient care hours. 40 hours of patient care hours is not something I would consider lifestyle!!! There is a slide right after that shows 10-14 additional hours of paperwork/administration up to 20+. I'm a 3rd year resident and see around 15-20 patient care hours but my work hours are closer to 50 (granted there are didactics, conferences, scholarly time). Also take a look at other specialities. For Internal Medicine, a notoriously workaholic specialty, 59% work less than 45 hours (patient care hours), but no sane person would call that a lifestyle specialty. Family Medicine apparently works same as psychiatry with 74% working less than 45 hours.

This is a good point. For all i know 30-35 clinical patient hours could turn into a 45-50 hour weeks or more when you consider notes, pa, returning phone calls, etc. I'll have more to say when i start in late july but im single and youngish ( 28.5) and dont' really care about investing more time in my own practice.. its mine... so im actually motivated to put time and effort into getting it going.. not sure thats a common feeling.. and it is not just like you start up and get flooded with patients and money... usually takes several weeks to even get paid and that is assuming everything is accurate. I have family in medicine and am stealing a room in their office and living at home for the first 6 months so my overhead is lower than normal.

Blitz: Midwest about 100k population within 15 mile radius of where my practice is going to be. Malpractice here is 1k-2k a year first year out for new docs.
 
This is a good point. For all i know 30-35 clinical patient hours could turn into a 45-50 hour weeks or more when you consider notes, pa, returning phone calls, etc. I'll have more to say when i start in late july but im single and youngish ( 28.5) and dont' really care about investing more time in my own practice.. its mine... so im actually motivated to put time and effort into getting it going.. not sure thats a common feeling.. and it is not just like you start up and get flooded with patients and money... usually takes several weeks to even get paid and that is assuming everything is accurate. I have family in medicine and am stealing a room in their office and living at home for the first 6 months so my overhead is lower than normal.

Blitz: Midwest about 100k population within 15 mile radius of where my practice is going to be. Malpractice here is 1k-2k a year first year out for new docs.

Sweet. Good luck on the venture, do keep us posted. Interested to hear your results/progress 1 year from now.
 
$300/hr, let's assume a good day you book 6 hrs of patients because 2 are no-shows, that's roughly $1800 a day. Figure 10 to 15% for expenses. So you pocket $1500 a day. That's $30,000 a month in net, or $330,000 a year if you take 4 weeks vacation.

This assumes you get paid 100% of the time, which never happens. This also assumes you can earn $300 an hour, which is not easy. This ignores time to write notes, return calls to patients with simple and complex questions, call pharmacies to make refills, etc, because people are paying you very good money so you can't ignore this. You're looking at a 9 or 10 hr day to fill 6 hrs of patient time. That's 45 to 50 hrs a week at least. So yes, you can break $300K, but it's going to take a lot of effort, time to establish yourself, and a little luck.

When you do procedures that bring in $200 to $500 a pop, you can hit that number working 35 hrs a week. Just some perspective here. But go for it - I'm all for success.
 
$300/hr, let's assume a good day you book 6 hrs of patients because 2 are no-shows, that's roughly $1800 a day. Figure 10 to 15% for expenses. So you pocket $1500 a day. That's $30,000 a month in net, or $330,000 a year if you take 4 weeks vacation.

This assumes you get paid 100% of the time, which never happens. This also assumes you can earn $300 an hour, which is not easy. This ignores time to write notes, return calls to patients with simple and complex questions, call pharmacies to make refills, etc, because people are paying you very good money so you can't ignore this. You're looking at a 9 or 10 hr day to fill 6 hrs of patient time. That's 45 to 50 hrs a week at least. So yes, you can break $300K, but it's going to take a lot of effort, time to establish yourself, and a little luck.

When you do procedures that bring in $200 to $500 a pop, you can hit that number working 35 hrs a week. Just some perspective here. But go for it - I'm all for success.

What if you throw in ECT into the mix, 3 mornings a week. And then throw in a suboxone clinic couple afternoons?

Help boost income? Is this logistically possible?
 
$300/hr, let's assume a good day you book 6 hrs of patients because 2 are no-shows, that's roughly $1800 a day. Figure 10 to 15% for expenses. So you pocket $1500 a day. That's $30,000 a month in net, or $330,000 a year if you take 4 weeks vacation.

This assumes you get paid 100% of the time, which never happens. This also assumes you can earn $300 an hour, which is not easy. This ignores time to write notes, return calls to patients with simple and complex questions, call pharmacies to make refills, etc, because people are paying you very good money so you can't ignore this. You're looking at a 9 or 10 hr day to fill 6 hrs of patient time. That's 45 to 50 hrs a week at least. So yes, you can break $300K, but it's going to take a lot of effort, time to establish yourself, and a little luck.

When you do procedures that bring in $200 to $500 a pop, you can hit that number working 35 hrs a week. Just some perspective here. But go for it - I'm all for success.

Add the time it takes to run the business and those big numbers settle down to averages. The salary is not where the exceptional value in private practice lies.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
$300/hr, let's assume a good day you book 6 hrs of patients because 2 are no-shows, that's roughly $1800 a day. Figure 10 to 15% for expenses. So you pocket $1500 a day. That's $30,000 a month in net, or $330,000 a year if you take 4 weeks vacation.

This assumes you get paid 100% of the time, which never happens. This also assumes you can earn $300 an hour, which is not easy. This ignores time to write notes, return calls to patients with simple and complex questions, call pharmacies to make refills, etc, because people are paying you very good money so you can't ignore this. You're looking at a 9 or 10 hr day to fill 6 hrs of patient time. That's 45 to 50 hrs a week at least. So yes, you can break $300K, but it's going to take a lot of effort, time to establish yourself, and a little luck.

When you do procedures that bring in $200 to $500 a pop, you can hit that number working 35 hrs a week. Just some perspective here. But go for it - I'm all for success.

Spot on. You can calculate on paper how many patients and how much you SHOULD get but it NEVER works out that simply and is almost always less. Hence the luxury of a paid 200-250k job.
For me being my own boss is everything. Financially my only goal my first year of private practice is after overhead making about what i did as a resident which was 55k as a 4th year.

Add the time it takes to run the business and those big numbers settle down to averages. The salary is not where the exceptional value in private practice lies.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

I read all your posts when you started your PP cash model. My plan is insurance and to transition at some point after a few years to that model... but a big maybe. Being my own boss is everything and a salary of 55k net after first year I'll be fine with. I realize all the big numbers probably won't happen. But autonomy and doing patient care the way I want is the main drive. As long as im not losing money and making what I am now as a 4th year at the end of my first year of PP I'll be ok with. Cars, houses, and bling are not my goals in life. Pristine physical health, supporting a family someday with kids and paying for their education, and the satisfaction of practicing medicine the way i want is what does it for me. Ok and chipotle with guac.
 
Last edited:
Ect? Haha. The psychiatrist who I shadowed said he made about $60 for each procedure after all expenses. I asked him why he does it for so little. He said because nobody else would do it. Forget Ect.
 
Ect? Haha. The psychiatrist who I shadowed said he made about $60 for each procedure after all expenses. I asked him why he does it for so little. He said because nobody else would do it. Forget Ect.

In the past when anesthesia was done by the psych doc I think it used to pay a few hundred. Some used to do it in their offices which paid pretty well. After all the rule changes and additional requirements that is what my attending who is the only one in the area that does ECT quoted... actually it was more like $50 a pop. He does 40 a week.
 
In the past when anesthesia was done by the psych doc I think it used to pay a few hundred. Some used to do it in their offices which paid pretty well. After all the rule changes and additional requirements that is what my attending who is the only one in the area that does ECT quoted... actually it was more like $50 a pop. He does 40 a week.

What's the average number of ECT you can do in an hour? 3?
 
In the past when anesthesia was done by the psych doc I think it used to pay a few hundred. Some used to do it in their offices which paid pretty well. After all the rule changes and additional requirements that is what my attending who is the only one in the area that does ECT quoted... actually it was more like $50 a pop. He does 40 a week.

What's the average number of ECT you can do in an hour? 3?
 
sounds about right. Better to round on inpt or see an hour of patients if you ask me. There is a reason not many do it anymore. $ is high on the list.
Any idea on reimbursement for tms? I can't find much online.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
 
Any idea on reimbursement for tms? I can't find much online.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Adding components like ECT and Suboxone and try to bulk up in volume will not work. There are a decent number of cash psychiatrists in the NYC Metro who clear 500k+, for <40 hours a week. But it's more about marketing and branding, and this outcome is not guaranteed. If you are not sure how you can be on that track, you probably aren't.

For a run-of-the-mill insurance based psychopharm practice, the math is typically as follows: total billing optimistically would be ~$300 an hour (2x 99213+90836 @ Medicare rates), 35 hours a week billable, 48 weeks a year, minus an optimistic 35% overhead, nets 300-350k a year. Total work hours > 50 hours a week, with a panel of ~300 patients, 1x FTE admin. More psychotherapy = less overhead but lower revenue. Hire someone to do your job: a young locum $150 an hour + recruitment cost, clear a thin profit margin (i.e. ~50k, against a startup cost in the 100-150k range, and NOT counting practice founder's opportunity cost). Takes about a year.

You can see why people don't do this--it's an administrative mess. In a market with a decent number of wealthy patients, the provider cohort tends to bifurcate: either low overhead "boutique" solo cash practice or employed by a medical system getting immediately paid ~200k a year salary + some RVUs and save the work of practice management and buy-in. It's hard to recruit people who are interested in a traditional "partnership" based private practice model because the low profit margin and high labor cost.

In smaller markets, things are different in that 1) people can't afford to pay cash 2) few providers, room for negotiation with insurance 3) therapists are cheaper 4) overhead is lower. It's more feasible to"join" a traditional single specialty or multi-specialty group partnership practice and end up with a much higher profit once you enter equity partnership--i.e. profit margins on allied staff, such as psychologists and SWs, much higher than MDs, and usually the small number of MDs run the mental health divisions of a large multi-specialty provider group. Classically, this is the typical medical practice in the US for all other specialties. Atypically, quite a few private psychiatrists in even small markets tend to not follow this model, but rather cut their own rates and just do cash solo. Statistically, this number is now >50% and growing. The long term implication for this is unclear.

There's nothing "clinical" in psychiatry that makes a ton of money in a very short period of time (not suboxone, not TMS, not ECT) by just doing it repetitively. We are not MOHS or Retina... I would argue that that's actually a good thing in the long run because CMS can easily cut specific procedural codes, but it's much harder to cut 99213 universally. So when supply and demand is favorable, cash practice can work for pretty much everyone.
 
Any idea on reimbursement for tms? I can't find much online.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
It depends on the insurance. I don't know anyone who takes medicaid because it pays so poorly (though bizarrely it does cover it in many states). they might take medicare depending on if you are in a region that covers it. I don't know how much the VA pays but they will fee service out for veterans to receive TMS. private insurance might pay $200-250 a session. out of pocket, $500/session seems standard around here and that is what insurance is billed but you'd be lucky to get half that.

If you want to actually have a TMS based practice it's probably not worth it unless you you have both the Neurostar and the Brainsway (for Deep TMS) and to have more than one machine. In order to use the machine it costs about $70-100 per treatment (the manufacturers were clever and knew the only way to make money off it was to charge you to use the machine (you need to use a cartridge each time) as the machines only cost about 70k and not many people buy them. There is a new TMS device that doesn't require this apparently.

It is not cost effective for a psychiatrist to administer TMS so in pp you would have to hire people to do this. (The psychiatrist would calculate the motor threshold and make any adjustments to treatment but other than that would not be part of the treatment administration). One practice around here (that does cash only TMS) has the social workers doing the TMS. Another practice has kids applying for med school doing the TMS. You would also have to have a high enough volume of chair use in order to justify it. So some people will have patients have multiple TMS sessions in a day in order to fill the chair but it starts getting a bit sketchy as the evidence base (which isn't great for TMS to begin with) is not there for people having 3 treatments in day, you really need to space things out a bit as you're not going to get much durability if you're doing more DLPFC stimulation at the same time.

Also remember in general TMS will only be paid for by insurance for treatment-resistant depression. They typically won't even cover bipolar depression (which is kinda ridiculous). So you would require someone to be able to afford to pay $15k for treatment out of pocket for a standard course of TMS.
 
It depends on the insurance. I don't know anyone who takes medicaid because it pays so poorly (though bizarrely it does cover it in many states). they might take medicare depending on if you are in a region that covers it. I don't know how much the VA pays but they will fee service out for veterans to receive TMS. private insurance might pay $200-250 a session. out of pocket, $500/session seems standard around here and that is what insurance is billed but you'd be lucky to get half that.

If you want to actually have a TMS based practice it's probably not worth it unless you you have both the Neurostar and the Brainsway (for Deep TMS) and to have more than one machine. In order to use the machine it costs about $70-100 per treatment (the manufacturers were clever and knew the only way to make money off it was to charge you to use the machine (you need to use a cartridge each time) as the machines only cost about 70k and not many people buy them. There is a new TMS device that doesn't require this apparently.

It is not cost effective for a psychiatrist to administer TMS so in pp you would have to hire people to do this. (The psychiatrist would calculate the motor threshold and make any adjustments to treatment but other than that would not be part of the treatment administration). One practice around here (that does cash only TMS) has the social workers doing the TMS. Another practice has kids applying for med school doing the TMS. You would also have to have a high enough volume of chair use in order to justify it. So some people will have patients have multiple TMS sessions in a day in order to fill the chair but it starts getting a bit sketchy as the evidence base (which isn't great for TMS to begin with) is not there for people having 3 treatments in day, you really need to space things out a bit as you're not going to get much durability if you're doing more DLPFC stimulation at the same time.

Also remember in general TMS will only be paid for by insurance for treatment-resistant depression. They typically won't even cover bipolar depression (which is kinda ridiculous). So you would require someone to be able to afford to pay $15k for treatment out of pocket for a standard course of TMS.

Not many who can afford this kind of cash treatment, particularly when deductibles are the in thousands of dollars.
 
So money again -- I'm again re-entering the job market because my job is ending, and I am sad. My job is kind of morphing into another job but with another employer. The offer they gave me would be an income cut. This is contributing to my sadness. Walk and go into new ventures? Negotiate (I'm getting the vibe they don't negotiate much)? Do I want to work for a place that doesn't negotiate? Would it be crass to specifically point out how much an income difference their offer is to what I'm currently making? There are potential other upsides -- being part of a bigger thing, good benefits, maybe more stability, but also downsides -- don't know who I'll be working, what if the new boss is a narcissistic jerk, etc., possible rigidity.
 
So money again -- I'm again re-entering the job market because my job is ending, and I am sad. My job is kind of morphing into another job but with another employer. The offer they gave me would be an income cut. This is contributing to my sadness. Walk and go into new ventures? Negotiate (I'm getting the vibe they don't negotiate much)? Do I want to work for a place that doesn't negotiate? Would it be crass to specifically point out how much an income difference their offer is to what I'm currently making? There are potential other upsides -- being part of a bigger thing, good benefits, maybe more stability, but also downsides -- don't know who I'll be working, what if the new boss is a narcissistic jerk, etc., possible rigidity.
Yeah, you should walk and go into new ventures. i'm guessing this is because of the unity center. I keep getting recruiter emails about that which is suspicious in itself. it's basically pseudo-academic - faculty title with few of the benefits and all of the drawbacks (including the sucky pay). I don't think you will be able to negotiate on the salary, but you should totally point out the income difference to what you're currently making. I suppose you should take into consideration the total compensation package (including benefits) but I bet it's significantly less.
 
So money again -- I'm again re-entering the job market because my job is ending, and I am sad. My job is kind of morphing into another job but with another employer. The offer they gave me would be an income cut. This is contributing to my sadness. Walk and go into new ventures? Negotiate (I'm getting the vibe they don't negotiate much)? Do I want to work for a place that doesn't negotiate? Would it be crass to specifically point out how much an income difference their offer is to what I'm currently making? There are potential other upsides -- being part of a bigger thing, good benefits, maybe more stability, but also downsides -- don't know who I'll be working, what if the new boss is a narcissistic jerk, etc., possible rigidity.

Stop selling yourself short. It's absolutely imperative that they make sure you are aware of what the going rates are. Don't let them see your emotion that you want to stay. If they want to pay you 75% of what the going rate is, then you should be working 75% of a FTE.

Please do not be afraid to start pointing out their costs of recruitment to replace you.
 
I hear Vancouver is nice. Is their psych unit hiring?
 
So money again -- I'm again re-entering the job market because my job is ending, and I am sad. My job is kind of morphing into another job but with another employer. The offer they gave me would be an income cut. This is contributing to my sadness. Walk and go into new ventures? Negotiate (I'm getting the vibe they don't negotiate much)? Do I want to work for a place that doesn't negotiate? Would it be crass to specifically point out how much an income difference their offer is to what I'm currently making? There are potential other upsides -- being part of a bigger thing, good benefits, maybe more stability, but also downsides -- don't know who I'll be working, what if the new boss is a narcissistic jerk, etc., possible rigidity.

If your impression is they do not negotiate that's a red flag. The exception to this is you are receiving an amazing offer. But you're not and they know it. If your employer does not negotiate the message is "we do things our way and you do things our way". Can you anticipate how you may feel with this framework when it finds itself in other areas? How will that impact your current appreciation of the pros of the job. If you take this job what other potential opportunities are you saying no to? It sounds like you have everything to gain despite possibly feeling at a loss right now.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
If your impression is they do not negotiate that's a red flag. The exception to this is you are receiving an amazing offer. But you're not and they know it. If your employer does not negotiate the message is "we do things our way and you do things our way". Can you anticipate how you may feel with this framework when it finds itself in other areas? How will that impact your current appreciation of the pros of the job. If you take this job what other potential opportunities are you saying no to? It sounds like you have everything to gain despite possibly feeling at a loss right now.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

Unfortunately I have a lot of experience with one part of this new entity that the job offer is coming from where that whole "we do things our way and you do things our way" felt 100% like my experience. It's hard to put that aside especially when this seems like how they're operating here as well.
 
Unfortunately I have a lot of experience with one part of this new entity that the job offer is coming from where that whole "we do things our way and you do things our way" felt 100% like my experience. It's hard to put that aside especially when this seems like how they're operating here as well.

What is the one thing that will make this job worthwhile such that if they let you do your one thing it will make everything else easier? Will focusing on your one thing make it easier to take the financial hit and make up for other losses? Does your employer being fully in control allow you to do your one thing or does it get in the way?

I do a million things I do not like to do in private practice to keep it running to do the one thing I like to do: Psychotherapy. I take huge risks and financial losses upfront and they are ongoing. It is probably no different than attendings who passionately choose academics because they love teaching and research. They take a massive financial hit upfront then slowly increase their pay over time to match market value plus other big perks. IMO if you maximize your investment in yourself the money will follow in whatever practice environment you choose.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app
 
Last edited:
What is the one thing that will make this job worthwhile such that if they let you do your one thing it will make everything else easier? Will focusing on your one thing make it easier to take the financial hit and make up for other losses? Does your employer being fully in control allow you to do your one thing or does it get in the way?

I do a million things I do not like to do in private practice to keep it running to do the one thing I like to do: Psychotherapy. I take huge risks and financial losses upfront and they are ongoing. It is probably no different than attendings who passionately choose academics because they love teaching and research. They take a massive financial hit upfront then slowly increase their pay over time to match market value plus other big perks. IMO if you maximize your investment in yourself the money will follow in whatever practice environment you choose.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

Prior to starting work after training, I would have said psychotherapy was the one true thing I wanted to do, too, but I'm not doing it currently. However, I also like the acute nature of my job, and there are all these other little pluses -- opportunity to earn good pay all within one system, overall nice people to work with, convenient location with free parking, flexibility in my day (I have to show up by 9 and be available all day one day a week -- otherwise, I set my day's schedule), a work environment that's really focused on doing the best for patients, etc.. There are downsides (I'm on call a decent amount, the schedule is chaotic and often short staffed, work can be stressful, insurance company appeals are annoying, etc), but I've lucked into this job that for the most part works well for me. With the new job, the actual base pay isn't that different, but it appears that there are fewer bonuses and fewer options to work more to increase my income. Some of the people will be the same, but the doctors will be different -- who knows if it'll be a good (nice) crew or not. It'll be for a bigger entity -- will they dictate more of my schedule? It has a academic association with where I did residency, and I didn't particularly fit well in that department (nothing against that department, but it wasn't a good fit for me, and it's hard to let that go). I also have about zero interest in teaching or having an academic job, especially as it usually comes with a pay cut.

My reality is that my student loans are such that being employed by a non-profit and going for PSLF is a pretty huge financial advantage for me, which sticks me with needing employed (likely not doing psychotherapy work) for 30 hours/week. It also makes Kaiser less appealing unless they're really able to pay a lot more. I do not want an employed job where I'm stuck in an office all day doing medication management with one patient after the next with no time to interact with other providers/doctors, which is the other limitation.
 
What's a good overhead % and how much for billing? I'm looking at a physician-owned multi-specialty group (>150 physicians) that has no psychiatrists. It's essentially eat what you kill but salaried first year. You can work as much or little as you want, you just pay rent on the rooms you use and if you wanted to hire an MA do so yourself. You share front desk as a percentage. I think they said maybe 13% for billing. The part I like is that they want to hire some mid-levels (they pay them) and anything in excess of profit goes to supervising physician. Thought this may not be a bad gig to ease into on the side.
 
Yes where I work
Stop selling yourself short. It's absolutely imperative that they make sure you are aware of what the going rates are. Don't let them see your emotion that you want to stay. If they want to pay you 75% of what the going rate is, then you should be working 75% of a FTE.

Please do not be afraid to start pointing out their costs of recruitment to replace you.




I agree with this 100 percent. Same thing for me end of summer contract ends. They already offered me much less than current contract rate. I said good luck finding someone. They negotiated other factors in but so far its not enough, but they are willing to negotiate at least. If I were you walk away to a better paying job but I have a feeling they will be asking you to come back..[/QUOTE]
 
So getting back to the original question, what is your conceptualization of a fair full-time salary (assuming 40 hours a week and no call) and/or an hourly wage for a general psychiatrist? What is it in your area? How much should extra experience or the completion of a fellowship change this?

And please tell me those 9 people who indicated they're making less than $150k are not working full-time? If so, why?
 
So getting back to the original question, what is your conceptualization of a fair full-time salary (assuming 40 hours a week and no call) and/or an hourly wage for a general psychiatrist? What is it in your area? How much should extra experience or the completion of a fellowship change this?

And please tell me those 9 people who indicated they're making less than $150k are not working full-time? If so, why?

170-250k
 
200-230k if board certified. in my area.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I would say 190-235k, but the more important question is: is it going to be a job where you both feel clinically satisfied and feel like you are practicing actual psychiatry in a reasonable and responsible manner?

I think the estimates of salaries on this board are fairly accurate, from what I've seen at least. And in some cases actually a bit low. It's the comparisons to other fields(and the salaries there I take issue with). The income potential in certain fields is much much higher(for true partnership private practice) than mentioned. Which isn't particularly relevant to me because I was never going to do those other fields so it's not like I gave something up.
 
I am being presented with an opportunity in a small town located within hour of major metro. They are offering employed but also an income guarantee - which I did not think was common in our field. If I were to be setup with an income guarantee, what should I look for/demand?
 
I am being presented with an opportunity in a small town located within hour of major metro. They are offering employed but also an income guarantee - which I did not think was common in our field. If I were to be setup with an income guarantee, what should I look for/demand?
I would think that the numbers for productivity would be more important. If they pay you a minimum of 200k and no matter go hard you work, that is what you are stuck with, then they are going to work you way too hard. If you can work hard and efficiently and make 25ok or more then who cares what the minimum is?
 
Last edited:
From the recruiting notices I've been seeing, OH and IL are some of the highest paying right now.

California doesn't look bad either even though they have a high COL. They don't have independent NP practice, and I wonder if that helps with either pay. I'm suspecting the high pay locums spots are in undesirable places, too.
 
California doesn't look bad either even though they have a high COL. They don't have independent NP practice, and I wonder if that helps with either pay. I'm suspecting the high pay locums spots are in undesirable places, too.

Same pay, if not higher in the Midwest compared to CA with lower taxes and COL. You make out better.
 
Top