So Confused...

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kanayo101

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I'm new to this forum but seems like the right crowd to approach 😉

So, it's that time of year us med students need to sort out what we think we want to do for the rest of our lives and arrange electives etc etc.

I'm really interested in anesthesiology + critical care. I say that not having done my core rotation in it yet. Nevertheless, I'm comfortable with it. It's just that working in a doc's office today (another rotation) gave me some doubts. I enjoyed the diagnosis part of what I was doing...history + physical = diagnosis = management plan. Do you really do much of that type of primary diagnosis in anesthesia?

Doubt #2...I don't know how I handle acuity. Never truly faced it so how do I know if I can perform when I need to? (Just read JetPearl Number 10!)

Sorry for the hardcore questioning, I'm a little confused 😕😕😕😕😕😕
 
Hey, I was in the same exact position that you were just a few days ago. Having not done a core rotation in anesthesia, I felt torn between gas and ENT surgery. Check thread below for further detail.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=714251&highlight=is+this+how+you+felt

Anyways here is my opinion from the very little I know

1. Primary diagnosis - not so much. However you need to have good history and physical skills in order to do a good preop. A good preop = fewer surprises in the OR.
For what it matters, I do not like primary diagnosis. I feel like there is way too much ambiguity and that a lot of times, the signs just point more towards one diagnosis than another, and this kind of bothers me. I like things more black and white. However, I do know that no field is perfect when it comes to that. Its just that some are better than others.

2. Jetpearl number 12 ! My heart was beating pretty fast as I read through it. I was imagining myself in Jet's position minus all his knowledge/wisdom, and I could see myself there. I feel like I have always been one to perform well under stress. It doesnt have to be the same exact position. It could be the immense information on an exam the next day that makes you sit down and think about what you need to do to succeed. It could just be a matter of how you handled a surgeon's non stop pimping in the OR. Or it could just be, holy crap I feel like my back wheel is about to give out from under me, what can I do to prevent it, but more importantly what should I do if I crash, tuck and roll ! Anyways, I hope you get the idea. I am sure nothing will prepare you for the actual scenario but experience itself. My motto is "No stress, just stay calm, cool and collected" aka live it up 😀
 
It's just that working in a doc's office today (another rotation) gave me some doubts. I enjoyed the diagnosis part of what I was doing...history + physical = diagnosis = management plan. Do you really do much of that type of primary diagnosis in anesthesia?

There's less of it, but what we do get is 1,000,000 x better in anesthesia.

When we rarely (very rarely) diagnose some showstopping problem preop, we cancel the case and someone else does the tuneup legwork. If a problem occurs acutely, or the situation changes abruptly mid-surgery, you diagnose and immediately treat problems yourself. This is uniquely satisfying to me.

H&P + diagnosis + treatment in an outpatient clinic is a lot of [common chronic medical problem] + start a drug + wait 3 months to see the patient again + find out the patient never filled the rx + try again and wait 3 months + patient no-shows + finally see the patient and make an incremental adjustment + another 3 month followup on and on and on ... all in the context of a 15-30 minute clinic appointment hamster wheel grind.

As you might have guessed, I generally disliked or even hated outpatient primary care work, but there were still days when everything came together, the diagnoses flowed, the patients were friendly and grateful, the nurses didn't abuse me, I wasn't 50 minutes behind by 11 AM ... and I thought I could almost see myself doing that specialty. Then reality would rear its ugly head and I'd be miserable again. For me anesthesia had by far the fewest ugly head-rearing episodes, so here I am.

No one can tell you what specialty you'll be happiest in, unless it's a cash-only dermatology practice. I will tell you I know a lot more unhappy FP and IM docs than anesthesiologists though.

Doubt #2...I don't know how I handle acuity. Never truly faced it so how do I know if I can perform when I need to?:

It's like public speaking. Everyone is uncomfortably bad at first. Experience and a growing knowledge / technical skill base will make all the difference in the world.

It's a rare MS4 who can smoothly and confidently handle even the simplest ACLS-directed crisis. You're probably normal. So unless you're convinced you're really, truly, pathologically bad at thinking on your feet or handling the unexpected (think anxiety disorder level super bad) don't let your current weak crisis-fu dissuade you from anesthesia. 4 years of residency will get you there.
 
There's less of it, but what we do get is 1,000,000 x better in anesthesia.

When we rarely (very rarely) diagnose some showstopping problem preop, we cancel the case and someone else does the tuneup legwork. If a problem occurs acutely, or the situation changes abruptly mid-surgery, you diagnose and immediately treat problems yourself. This is uniquely satisfying to me.

H&P + diagnosis + treatment in an outpatient clinic is a lot of [common chronic medical problem] + start a drug + wait 3 months to see the patient again + find out the patient never filled the rx + try again and wait 3 months + patient no-shows + finally see the patient and make an incremental adjustment + another 3 month followup on and on and on ... all in the context of a 15-30 minute clinic appointment hamster wheel grind.

As you might have guessed, I generally disliked or even hated outpatient primary care work, but there were still days when everything came together, the diagnoses flowed, the patients were friendly and grateful, the nurses didn't abuse me, I wasn't 50 minutes behind by 11 AM ... and I thought I could almost see myself doing that specialty. Then reality would rear its ugly head and I'd be miserable again. For me anesthesia had by far the fewest ugly head-rearing episodes, so here I am.

No one can tell you what specialty you'll be happiest in, unless it's a cash-only dermatology practice. I will tell you I know a lot more unhappy FP and IM docs than anesthesiologists though.



It's like public speaking. Everyone is uncomfortably bad at first. Experience and a growing knowledge / technical skill base will make all the difference in the world.

It's a rare MS4 who can smoothly and confidently handle even the simplest ACLS-directed crisis. You're probably normal. So unless you're convinced you're really, truly, pathologically bad at thinking on your feet or handling the unexpected (think anxiety disorder level super bad) don't let your current weak crisis-fu dissuade you from anesthesia. 4 years of residency will get you there.

Pgg, great thread. Thanks.

To the OP, I've made the decision to do anesthesiology and will start CBY in just over 2 months😱😱:laugh:

Anyhow, I too liked primary diagnisis. But, it was mostly hospital based stuff that I liked such as inpatient medicine. I just finished a month of MICU and it was also very cool. At times, I could have seen doing outpatient IM or even FP (though I just contradicted myself).

However, what I realized was that while anesthesiologists don't do a lot of primary, chronic disease type Dx (as pgg has stated), they DO NEED TO KNOW MEDICINE. And well, in my opinion. I think that once I realized how sick patients were, undergoing all sorts of procedures that required some kind of anesthesia, it put me at ease. Patient histories, which ofcourse you'll need to understand, are only going to get more complex, medically, as our patient population ages and grows in size....

On the interview trail, one of the staff was taking up Harrison's as a "hobby". Frankly, I thought that was cool and can only enhance one's professional value, albeit in perhaps an unquantifiable way.

And, when you see these guys come rushing into a code or an emergent intubation and completely take charge of the situation, it's pretty darn cool (not so scare you about the acuity concerns you eluded to, as I agree with pgg on that issue as well). I've seen this personally in the MICU when the fellow couldn't tube the patient and had to call "anesthesia".

There was a former post from JPP (I think) which brought up the point that when, in an ICU setting, even the medicine trained CC guys are mostly comfortable ordering this medication or that. While the aneshesiology trained docs will either have the drugs ON THEM or draw them up themselves, and more often than not will push the meds themselves. Seeing this is just really cool. I'm not comparing Pulm/CC dudes to Anes/CC people, but just reiterating an observation that others have made in the past w/r/t emergent situations.....

cf
 
There was a former post from JPP (I think) which brought up the point that when, in an ICU setting, even the medicine trained CC guys are mostly comfortable ordering this medication or that. While the aneshesiology trained docs will either have the drugs ON THEM or draw them up themselves, and more often than not will push the meds themselves. Seeing this is just really cool. I'm not comparing Pulm/CC dudes to Anes/CC people, but just reiterating an observation that others have made in the past w/r/t emergent situations.....

cf

That's one of the reasons that I personally chose Anesthesiology over IM. Even as a 3rd year, I was always too impatient to wait around for stuff to happen and preferred eliminating wait time and doing things myself if I could. I personally liked that attribute of the Anesthesiology residents I met in the MICU (our CA-1s do both a MICU and SICU month, and CA-2s a CTICU month).

I did have a follow-up question though. In an ICU setting, can the Anesthesiology resident rotating through the unit use his pyxis access to directly draw up and give meds? I thought outside the OR, even we were bound by the system and could only order while the RNs administered.
 
I really do NOT like H&Ps! I think history-taking is my least favorite part of medicine! I know that a good history is important, but it just seems that the information is so tainted with inaccuracies and garbage when patients are giving it! Some patients are clued in and good about putting things coherently, but I get frustrated when they cannot nail down facts...I might be too OCD and detail-oriented for history taking! I did engineering in undergrad. I'm a big fan of black-and-white! I love lab values, vitals, and data. Physiology and pharm are appealing too because there's not a lot of gray BS. I'm thrilled that H&Ps will be relegated to pre-op because I think I would be terrible at primary care. I pray that I'm good at anesthesiology - I'm desperately trying to find a good fit for my brain and abilities! I've always done better with theoretical rather than practical, but it seems that the interventions of anesthesiology are the most discrete...you either give a drug or you don't, you intubate or you don't, etc.
 
That's one of the reasons that I personally chose Anesthesiology over IM. Even as a 3rd year, I was always too impatient to wait around for stuff to happen and preferred eliminating wait time and doing things myself if I could. I personally liked that attribute of the Anesthesiology residents I met in the MICU (our CA-1s do both a MICU and SICU month, and CA-2s a CTICU month).

I did have a follow-up question though. In an ICU setting, can the Anesthesiology resident rotating through the unit use his pyxis access to directly draw up and give meds? I thought outside the OR, even we were bound by the system and could only order while the RNs administered.

Perhaps others could shed some light on this one. I think, though, for non-emergent situations in the ICU, orders should suffice and are probably more efficient given multiple patient coverage and workload.
 
I really do NOT like H&Ps! I think history-taking is my least favorite part of medicine! I know that a good history is important, but it just seems that the information is so tainted with inaccuracies and garbage when patients are giving it! Some patients are clued in and good about putting things coherently, but I get frustrated when they cannot nail down facts...I might be too OCD and detail-oriented for history taking! I did engineering in undergrad. I'm a big fan of black-and-white! I love lab values, vitals, and data. Physiology and pharm are appealing too because there's not a lot of gray BS. I'm thrilled that H&Ps will be relegated to pre-op because I think I would be terrible at primary care. I pray that I'm good at anesthesiology - I'm desperately trying to find a good fit for my brain and abilities! I've always done better with theoretical rather than practical, but it seems that the interventions of anesthesiology are the most discrete...you either give a drug or you don't, you intubate or you don't, etc.

Histories are a serious pain the the butt when the patients are "poor historians" (most, in my experience).

Another pet-peeve is how 1/2 the time, you spend on the "system" trying to figure out what the hell meds they take (previous discharge summaries), and what their PMH actually is, and any studies (2D Echos) which may or may not be are available.

Yet another b.tch is when you get bad information such as non-documented information about what happened in the ED (i.e. how the patient actually presented vitals wise, and whether or not the vitals were pre versus post bolus of fluids etc. etc.) And for GOD's sake, please put an Fi02 when you do a blood gas!!!!

That crap makes it so hard to present to attendings (which is why, seriously, I've seen IM residents basically make stuff up around their diagnosis. that is, they do a really good job SELLING the diagnosis even if it means being pretty liberal with filling in the "blanks"). So, a patient with a CHFexacerbation versus COPD exacerbation has orthopnea and PND and was coughing up some frothy sputum after having skipped a day or so of BP meds and indulging in a high salt diet that weekend....(whether they actually stated so or not, but the last 2D Echo showed LV systolic dysfunction and previous admissions were mainly for CHF, thus.....)

Having rotated through several hospital systems with different computer systems, protocol forms, and charting etc. it seems that 1/2 the battle of intern year is becoming proficient at FINDING INFORMATION etc. I'm actually starting my training at an institution where I've never rotated, so it's gonna blow the first few weeks as I/we (as I'm sure I'm not alone in this....) get aclimated to the ways of the hospital. I just hope it's pretty streamlined......

Anyone else share in these frusterations? Just venting a bit.....

cf
 
Histories are a serious pain the the butt when the patients are "poor historians" (most, in my experience).

Another pet-peeve is how 1/2 the time, you spend on the "system" trying to figure out what the hell meds they take (previous discharge summaries), and what their PMH actually is, and any studies (2D Echos) which may or may not be are available.

Yet another b.tch is when you get bad information such as non-documented information about what happened in the ED (i.e. how the patient actually presented vitals wise, and whether or not the vitals were pre versus post bolus of fluids etc. etc.) And for GOD's sake, please put an Fi02 when you do a blood gas!!!!

That crap makes it so hard to present to attendings (which is why, seriously, I've seen IM residents basically make stuff up around their diagnosis. that is, they do a really good job SELLING the diagnosis even if it means being pretty liberal with filling in the "blanks"). So, a patient with a CHFexacerbation versus COPD exacerbation has orthopnea and PND and was coughing up some frothy sputum after having skipped a day or so of BP meds and indulging in a high salt diet that weekend....(whether they actually stated so or not, but the last 2D Echo showed LV systolic dysfunction and previous admissions were mainly for CHF, thus.....)

Having rotated through several hospital systems with different computer systems, protocol forms, and charting etc. it seems that 1/2 the battle of intern year is becoming proficient at FINDING INFORMATION etc. I'm actually starting my training at an institution where I've never rotated, so it's gonna blow the first few weeks as I/we (as I'm sure I'm not alone in this....) get aclimated to the ways of the hospital. I just hope it's pretty streamlined......

Anyone else share in these frusterations? Just venting a bit.....

cf

Lol, I'm glad I'm not the only one frustrated by these things! Yeah, I did well in the first 2 years of med school and on the Step 1, but I've questioned whether I'm actually competent enough to do medicine a lot during rotations...and I think it's mostly because there's a massive amount of info (a ton of which is not relevant), a lot of administrative info is unstructured, and the patients are not the best sources of history. I know the fact about 90% of the time the diagnosis stems from the history, but the specifics are hard to nail down with patients. So, finding out some patient has orthopnea and gets out of breath with walking 2 blocks, etc, and diagnosing CHF might not be the most difficult thing, but getting the specifics...oh my mother. The other thing is...attendings can always lead off exactly from what you present, so you can do a ton of homework and finally get the patient to reveal the important aspects of the hx, but then you need to get the h out of the room and present...and then the attending's extrapolating your hx with..."well, did you ask about this..." I'm drawn to anesthesiology because of the data...vitals, ECGs, pulmonary wave forms, meds, ABGs...data can be wrong, but it doesn't take a year to tell you its story!
 
Lol, I'm glad I'm not the only one frustrated by these things! Yeah, I did well in the first 2 years of med school and on the Step 1, but I've questioned whether I'm actually competent enough to do medicine a lot during rotations...and I think it's mostly because there's a massive amount of info (a ton of which is not relevant), a lot of administrative info is unstructured, and the patients are not the best sources of history. I know the fact about 90% of the time the diagnosis stems from the history, but the specifics are hard to nail down with patients. So, finding out some patient has orthopnea and gets out of breath with walking 2 blocks, etc, and diagnosing CHF might not be the most difficult thing, but getting the specifics...oh my mother. The other thing is...attendings can always lead off exactly from what you present, so you can do a ton of homework and finally get the patient to reveal the important aspects of the hx, but then you need to get the h out of the room and present...and then the attending's extrapolating your hx with..."well, did you ask about this..." I'm drawn to anesthesiology because of the data...vitals, ECGs, pulmonary wave forms, meds, ABGs...data can be wrong, but it doesn't take a year to tell you its story!

Dude, those HPI's that take 45 minutes when they should take 15 are seriously problematic. That being said, I've definitely gotten it down to where if the patient is a seriously "poor historian" (i often hesitate to use that term on rounds since they can always come back with "poor historian?" or "poor interviewer?? eh eh,.....) I just summarize as best as I can and then go to the system for the information.

It's crazy how many patients FAMILIES (i.e. LOVED ONES) fail to think of the simplest things (even when they've had plenty of time) such as a medication list. Seriously, I even appreciate it when they just bring a bag with all the friggin pill bottles. Takes more time, but at least you can be accurate.

Arrgh......
 
And when queried, will reply "oh, we didn't think it was important, the doctor should know, right?" It sure would be nice to have a state-wide EMR like the VA, at least you can see what a person has been given and why. (although there is much that I don't care for about the VA)
 
In an ICU setting, can the Anesthesiology resident rotating through the unit use his pyxis access to directly draw up and give meds? I thought outside the OR, even we were bound by the system and could only order while the RNs administered.

Most of the time it's easier and just as effective to write the order and let the nurses take care of it. Rarely, quicker action is needed and a few cc of something vasoactive "right now" really is much better than waiting for the nurses to get a drug, draw it up, cross check it with another nurse (on break) per protocol, give it "slow IV push" over 3 minutes, etc.

Most ICU nurses won't bat an eye if anesthesia residents draw up or push their own drugs. They're used to us bringing patients from the OR and giving hits of this or that during turnover. Typically you'll still need need to write an order for whatever you give and mark that you did it yourself.

I never had Pyxis access in any of the ICUs I worked in. During my ICU rotations I'd just take drugs from the OR and have them available if I needed them. Never really advertised it because I didn't want to deal with nurse angst about it, but I used them more than a few times.

I actually had more conflict with uppity RTs who got pissy when I made changes to "their" ventilators ...
 
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