So last night I argued with airport security about the definition of a fluid...

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rocketbooster

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the airline's policy is no fluid above 3.5 oz. my shaving gel was more than that, so they tried taking it away. I started arguing about the definition of a fluid. a fluid is either a liquid or gas. if I can prove my shaving gel is a solid, then I should be able to keep it. it was going to comedown to if it was a solid or a liquid. i told them that a solid is defined as having definite shape and volume while a liquid is defined has having definite volume but no definite shape. so, it came down to if my shaving gel has definite shape. I told them definite shape was defined as having the lack of ability to flow. can the molecules in my gel flow or not? when you put some gel on my hand, it does not move. it piles higher and higher. the weight of increased gel may change the shape of the gel, but that's because you're applying a force to it. if my gel had no definite shape, then it would run down my hand, not pile up. therefore, my gel does not have free flow. thus, my gel has definite shape and it is a solid, so your 3.5 rule doesn't apply to it because it is not a fluid.

well, they didn't really care. they took it away anyway. I should have been correct, though!

here's the kicker: they overbooked my flight and i didn't get a seat, which is why I'm on SDN right now waiting 3 days for the next flight, which I'm really pissed about since 3 days of my spring break trip are gone, but anyways, on my way out I went up to the security and asked for my shaving gel back. if they are going to screw me over by overbooking, I'm at least going to get my shaving gel back I just bought an hour before.

I got my shaving gel back. 👍
 
Why waste your time? Know the usual travel policies and stick with them. Either put questionable items like toothpaste and shaving supplies in a checked bag or just buy them when you get to your destination. Otherwise you're just being a pain.
 
It's a colloid! A colloid, dammit! The TSA doesn't say anything about colloids!

ha, well, I don't know much about colloids but I looked it up under wikipedia. according to the chart at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colloid#Classification_of_colloids , the continuous medium is a solid but the dispersed phase is a gas. I know it says "gel" on the container, but it's technically a "solid foam," so it's a gas rather than a liquid based on that chart. so anyways, it's half solid, half gas. so, half nonfluid, half fluid. I think to be fair, you have to divide the volume of the shaving gel by 2 since it's only half fluid...


AND HOLY ****! just by chance, my shaving gel container says 7 oz inside! do you know what that means? 7/2=3.5! It EXACTLY meets their no more than 3.5 oz. rule! I, without doubt, should have been allowed to keep it with me.

if they still BSed me, I should have just emptied exactly 0.5 of the total volume out in front of them. then it would be 3.5 oz of total substance in a 7 oz container. the rule is 3.5 oz. of fluid, not container size!
 
it's very painful to argue science with people. You'll be amazed how confident people can be spouting something that is incorrect, and no matter how perfectly you explain it, until that flip switches in their head and they become open to your explaining, it won't make any sense.
 
the airline's policy is no fluid above 3.5 oz. my shaving gel was more than that, so they tried taking it away. I started arguing about the definition of a fluid. a fluid is either a liquid or gas. if I can prove my shaving gel is a solid, then I should be able to keep it. it was going to comedown to if it was a solid or a liquid. i told them that a solid is defined as having definite shape and volume while a liquid is defined has having definite volume but no definite shape. so, it came down to if my shaving gel has definite shape. I told them definite shape was defined as having the lack of ability to flow. can the molecules in my gel flow or not? when you put some gel on my hand, it does not move. it piles higher and higher. the weight of increased gel may change the shape of the gel, but that's because you're applying a force to it. if my gel had no definite shape, then it would run down my hand, not pile up. therefore, my gel does not have free flow. thus, my gel has definite shape and it is a solid, so your 3.5 rule doesn't apply to it because it is not a fluid.

well, they didn't really care. they took it away anyway. I should have been correct, though!

here's the kicker: they overbooked my flight and i didn't get a seat, which is why I'm on SDN right now waiting 3 days for the next flight, which I'm really pissed about since 3 days of my spring break trip are gone, but anyways, on my way out I went up to the security and asked for my shaving gel back. if they are going to screw me over by overbooking, I'm at least going to get my shaving gel back I just bought an hour before.

I got my shaving gel back. 👍

Dude:

First, it is not airline policy, it is TSA policy.

The limit is 3 oz., not 3.5 oz. And you can't empty out part of the contents to satisfy the limit - whatever is stated on the packaging is what matters.

And if you look at the TSA website, and read the warnings in the airports, the lists of prohibited items includes shaving gel or cream in quantities over 3 oz, not just a scientific definition of "liquids." Other prohibited items include toothpaste, gel inserts in shoes, etc. The prohibition includes anything that could be used to mask bomb making materials, and is not just limited to some science nerd's definition of "liquids."

You must not fly much to do something like this. It is not very intelligent to argue with people who can detain you, make you miss your flight, and have you arrested over something like this.
 
the airline's policy is no fluid above 3.5 oz. my shaving gel was more than that, so they tried taking it away. I started arguing about the definition of a fluid.

First mistake - arguing with a TSA dude who couldn't give a **** whether or not you are right or wrong because he could say yes or no, no matter what you said.
 
well, they didn't really care. they took it away anyway. I should have been correct, though!

here's the kicker: they overbooked my flight and i didn't get a seat, which is why I'm on SDN right now waiting 3 days for the next flight, which I'm really pissed about since 3 days of my spring break trip are gone

🤣
this is called karma for being a d-bag to some poor TSA employee who is just following what is written in some handbook:claps:

besides you should've already known that your shaving gel was not allowed.....have u not gotten on a plane since 9/11/01? whether it is a liquid is actually absolutely irrelevant in terms of why that rule is in place
 
I bet everyone who heard thought you were super smart and cool.
 
I bet everyone who heard thought you were super smart and cool.

Yeah, and he thought everyone here on SDN would think he is super smart and cool, too.

Way to go, Booger! You really showed that TSA employee a thing or two...
 
wth...some battles aren't worth fighting
 
The TSA is just trying to keep airplane travel safe, so arguing with them and wasting everyone in the security line's time seems kind of silly. I hope you weren't holding up the line when you had your debate, because some people are just trying to get to their gate on time.
 
The TSA is just trying to keep airplane travel safe, so arguing with them and wasting everyone in the security line's time seems kind of silly. I hope you weren't holding up the line when you had your debate, because some people are just trying to get to their gate on time.

Yeah, if I was behind you, I would've been pissed.

What do you expect the lowly TSA officer to do? The rules are the rules, and he's not in any position to reinterpret the definition of "fluid." You can't really be surprised you didn't win this battle.
 
I was arguing because they let me keep my toothpaste, which is above 6 oz, but not my shaving gel.

oh and actually i didn't argue with them about the definition of a fluid haha. I just gave it to them when they asked for it. I twisted the truth a little on here because I thought you guys would have fun with the story. guess not! lol

and I didn't miss the flight because of the airport security. like i said, I didn't actually argue. I missed it because they overbooked.

everyone calm down. 😡
 
I was arguing because they let me keep my toothpaste, which is above 6 oz, but not my shaving gel.

oh and actually i didn't argue with them about the definition of a fluid haha. I just gave it to them when they asked for it. I twisted the truth a little on here because I thought you guys would have fun with the story. guess not! lol

and I didn't miss the flight because of the airport security. like i said, I didn't actually argue. I missed it because they overbooked.

everyone calm down. 😡

Lol. Fair enough. Where were you flying that only sends out flights once every three days?
 
...I should have been correct, though!
...

Um no. You should have been barred from the plane and ushered to a secure room to rethink things. For some the line between smart and *****ic is thin indeed, I guess. The TSA doesn't F___ around. If they say you can't bring it onto the plane then they are automatically correct under the FAA rules, and anything you "argue" after that point is foolhardy. They are allowed to ban items from airplanes with a ton of discretion. When they make the decision as to what constitutes a liquid, then they control the definition, not science. So you were wrong. And foolish. It is a fluid because the person who gets to decide whether it is prohibited or not decided it was a fluid. He could have decided the same thing about other items in your luggage and you would be similarly stuck.

The correct answer when dealing with the TSA is "yes sir". Then they let you on the plane. You don't fight with them about what sundries you can carry on, whether you have to take off your shoes, or other silliness. Arguing against someone whose job is to keep people safe by inspecting luggage and confiscating suspicious items about the definition of a fluid constitutes suspicious behavior and the TSA was very generous allowing you to travel at all. I probably wouldn't have if some know-it-all started arguing with me about whether I should allow them to bring shaving gel aboard.

For what it's worth, it would actually be about as easy to make something explosive or noxious in gel form rather than liquid form. No reason at all to allow you to have that in a carry on. Even less reason if you argued with them.
 
Lol. Fair enough. Where were you flying that only sends out flights once every three days?

KC to NYC. it's not that they don't send out flights every 3 days...they said it's spring break and every flight of theirs to NYC is booked for the next month. funny how they fit into the monday flight after saying that. they guaranteed me a seat on the monday flight. normally, you can't guarantee your seat until 24 hours with this airline unless you pay $35. they guaranteed me a seat for free on monday. in other words, they overbooked the monday flight even more than it probably was already overbooked. the ppl with reservations can't get seats until tomorrow night at earliest (24 hours before flight). since I have mine before that 24 hour period, that means there is one less seat for everyone else. so, 1 person on that flight will probably get screwed by me, unless they get enough no-shoes to take all the standbys. not my problem, it happened to me!
 
You're lucky they didn't cavity search you, lol. Don't mess with TSA!
 
Um no. You should have been barred from the plane and ushered to a secure room to rethink things. For some the line between smart and *****ic is thin indeed, I guess. The TSA doesn't F___ around. If they say you can't bring it onto the plane then they are automatically correct under the FAA rules, and anything you "argue" after that point is foolhardy. They are allowed to ban items from airplanes with a ton of discretion. When they make the decision as to what constitutes a liquid, then they control the definition, not science. So you were wrong. And foolish. It is a fluid because the person who gets to decide whether it is prohibited or not decided it was a fluid. He could have decided the same thing about other items in your luggage and you would be similarly stuck.

The correct answer when dealing with the TSA is "yes sir". Then they let you on the plane. You don't fight with them about what sundries you can carry on, whether you have to take off your shoes, or other silliness. Arguing against someone whose job is to keep people safe by inspecting luggage and confiscating suspicious items about the definition of a fluid constitutes suspicious behavior and the TSA was very generous allowing you to travel at all. I probably wouldn't have if some know-it-all started arguing with me about whether I should allow them to bring shaving gel aboard.

For what it's worth, it would actually be about as easy to make something explosive or noxious in gel form rather than liquid form. No reason at all to allow you to have that in a carry on. Even less reason if you argued with them.

go read my last post. i didn't actually argue. i did give it them right away. i just said i argued in my SDN post to try to entertain you guys on here, but everyone is so uptight this morning for some reason!

and actually, there is a time to argue with TSA security employees. if you get one of those "random searches" when you are in fact middle eastern and it happens to you all the time, you better speak up. it's clearly racism at that point.
 
go read my last post. i didn't actually argue. i did give it them right away. i just said i argued in my SDN post to try to entertain you guys on here, but everyone is so uptight this morning for some reason!

and actually, there is a time to argue with TSA security employees. if you get one of those "random searches" when you are in fact middle eastern and it happens to you all the time, you better speak up. it's clearly racism at that point.

There is NEVER a time to argue with TSA employees, particularly in your example of "racism."

Same with the police. Don't argue with someone who has the authority to **** your life up, get a good lawyer.
 
go read my last post. i didn't actually argue. i did give it them right away. i just said i argued in my SDN post to try to entertain you guys on here, but everyone is so uptight this morning for some reason!

and actually, there is a time to argue with TSA security employees. if you get one of those "random searches" when you are in fact middle eastern and it happens to you all the time, you better speak up. it's clearly racism at that point.

At that particular moment, no, it's not the time. Later you should lodge a complaint though.
 
go read my last post. i didn't actually argue. i did give it them right away. i just said i argued in my SDN post to try to entertain you guys on here, but everyone is so uptight this morning for some reason!

"So last night I argued with airport security about the definition of a fluid..."

So, not only are you a dork, but a liar, too?

I don't see how pretending about being an annoying nerd to TSA can be defined as entertaining.
 
the rule is 3.5 oz. of fluid, not container size!

3-1-1 for carry-ons = 3.4 ounce bottle or less (by volume) ; 1 quart-sized, clear, plastic, zip-top bag; 1 bag per passenger placed in screening bin. One-quart bag per person limits the total liquid volume each traveler can bring. 3.4 oz. container size is a security measure.

http://www.tsa.gov/311/index.shtm
 
Certainly, this is a pick-your-battles situation, but why all the hate directed toward the OP? TSA screeners are mostly droids. When you put people of such a low quality in a position of power, they will use it to ensure that their own butts are covered - not in a spirit of fairness, sound reasoning and scientific correctness. They don't really have the capacity to understand your arguments, they're just running a program. Being mad at them is like getting angry at a computer.
 
I was arguing because they let me keep my toothpaste, which is above 6 oz, but not my shaving gel.

oh and actually i didn't argue with them about the definition of a fluid haha. I just gave it to them when they asked for it. I twisted the truth a little on here because I thought you guys would have fun with the story. guess not! lol

and I didn't miss the flight because of the airport security. like i said, I didn't actually argue. I missed it because they overbooked.

everyone calm down. 😡

The reason everyone is pissed is because you are a jackass. Lets get a few things straight first off, you did argue with the TSA then when you where not met with overwhelming approval on SDN you changed your story. Second, even if you did get your shaving gel back you are still the dumbest person in the airport that night, you argued with someone who can have you arrested over shaving gel, available at any pharmacy or airport for $3.24. Third, you where wrong, the TSA's policy is for liquids and gels. Forth, again you are a jackass, you inconvenienced everyone in the security line because you thought you where better than the TSA guy.
 
the airline's policy is no fluid above 3.5 oz. my shaving gel was more than that, so they tried taking it away. I started arguing about the definition of a fluid. a fluid is either a liquid or gas. if I can prove my shaving gel is a solid, then I should be able to keep it. it was going to comedown to if it was a solid or a liquid. i told them that a solid is defined as having definite shape and volume while a liquid is defined has having definite volume but no definite shape. so, it came down to if my shaving gel has definite shape. I told them definite shape was defined as having the lack of ability to flow. can the molecules in my gel flow or not? when you put some gel on my hand, it does not move. it piles higher and higher. the weight of increased gel may change the shape of the gel, but that's because you're applying a force to it. if my gel had no definite shape, then it would run down my hand, not pile up. therefore, my gel does not have free flow. thus, my gel has definite shape and it is a solid, so your 3.5 rule doesn't apply to it because it is not a fluid.

well, they didn't really care. they took it away anyway. I should have been correct, though!

here's the kicker: they overbooked my flight and i didn't get a seat, which is why I'm on SDN right now waiting 3 days for the next flight, which I'm really pissed about since 3 days of my spring break trip are gone, but anyways, on my way out I went up to the security and asked for my shaving gel back. if they are going to screw me over by overbooking, I'm at least going to get my shaving gel back I just bought an hour before.

I got my shaving gel back. 👍

The precise reason that pre-meds are stereotyped....
 
I was arguing because they let me keep my toothpaste, which is above 6 oz, but not my shaving gel.

oh and actually i didn't argue with them about the definition of a fluid haha. I just gave it to them when they asked for it. I twisted the truth a little on here because I thought you guys would have fun with the story. guess not! lol

and I didn't miss the flight because of the airport security. like i said, I didn't actually argue. I missed it because they overbooked.

everyone calm down. 😡

no, you didn't come on here and completely fabricate this story because you thought we'd find it funny, you did so because you thought people would think you were awesome and shower you with praise and you would feel like a big man for once instead of some dorky kid who never gets laid. you're SUCH a huge tool.
 
What if you put a turkey in a blender to make a turkey frappe? Would it then be considered a liquid? How about ice?
 
While I have to agree with most of the posters that arguing with the security people is generally pointless and you can see on line shaving gel is prohibited, I have to say the security checkers make some random calls. I argued (yes argued) when someone tried to confiscate a tub of frosting claiming that is fell in the 3 oz. rule because it was cheese (cream cheese flavored frosting.) After I had him go ask his supervisor if it fell under the requirement he came back and said it was all right, so if there are really absurd things you can argue, shaving cream is not one of those things.
 
Sometimes you DO have to argue with TSA employees. I don't really mean "argue" as in start a fight at the checkpoint, but sometimes they FAR overstep their bounds, and the passenger has a right to object at such times.

Let me give an example. I'm a lot older than the rest of you guys, and worked in business for 20 years, which involved a decent amount of air travel. Like other women in business, I noticed that security searches became much more intrusive after 9/11, and agents in some airports practically insisted on strip-searching the female passengers. This happened to me once in Detroit, where I was being wanded and my underwire bra set off the metal detector. The agent (also female) told me to "take it off." I was pretty flabbergasted, considering that we were in the middle of the damned airport.

But then I just got mad. I looked the agent in the eye and very calmly said, "No." She let me through.
 
Sometimes you DO have to argue with TSA employees. I don't really mean "argue" as in start a fight at the checkpoint, but sometimes they FAR overstep their bounds, and the passenger has a right to object at such times.

Let me give an example. I'm a lot older than the rest of you guys, and worked in business for 20 years, which involved a decent amount of air travel. Like other women in business, I noticed that security searches became much more intrusive after 9/11, and agents in some airports practically insisted on strip-searching the female passengers. This happened to me once in Detroit, where I was being wanded and my underwire bra set off the metal detector. The agent (also female) told me to "take it off." I was pretty flabbergasted, considering that we were in the middle of the damned airport.

But then I just got mad. I looked the agent in the eye and very calmly said, "No." She let me through.

The TSA was on heightened alert after 9/11, and they acknowledge that the whole frisking / feeling up of females was overdone.

Nonetheless, they had the right to ask you to go to a private room and remove the bra, at which point you may have still "argued" but I believe it was an understandable and legit request. Refusing such a request risks being turned away, so if you want to stand on principle but miss your flight, that is your business...

I flew a lot back then, too, and had my crotch felt up more than once. I didn't like it, but I also didn't take it personally, and I have never "argued" with a TSA person - the object is to get to the other side of the security screen, not to be "right" about anything.
 
I agree with you OP. This "security theater" we have is a complete joke. But yeah, arguing about this in an airport security line is not the best idea.
 
no, you didn't come on here and completely fabricate this story because you thought we'd find it funny, you did so because you thought people would think you were awesome and shower you with praise and you would feel like a big man for once instead of some dorky kid who never gets laid. you're SUCH a huge tool.

ouch. moral of the story: Don't come to SDN to pseudo brag about a hypothetical accomplishment based on outsmarting people with Physics...and don't F with the TSA, they have enough on their plate.
 
Here's an example of TSA *******edness, and this is not made up a la OP.

I have a big bottle of shampoo at home, the brand I can't buy little sample bottles of, so I bought a small empty bottle at the drugstore and filled it with shampoo from home.

So I'm flying here and there for residency interviews, and at one airport out of the half dozen I flew through, one time, the TSA screener looks at my freedom baggie and pulls out the bottle.

"What's this?"
"Shampoo."
"How come it doesn't have any writing on it?"
"That shampoo doesn't come in that size so I put it in a bottle from the drugstore."
"I have to take this - how do I know what's really in here?"
"Um, okay."

So, I give him the bottle, keeping my thoughts to myself. If I were some pre-med hero, I'd argue that if I *really* wanted to be all stealthy, I'd empty out a bottle with writing on it and put whatever liquid I wanted. Like 12 year old Scotch, or enough doses of LSD to trip out everyone in San Francisco.

But no, I gave him the bottle. No argument, everyone gets on the plane thirty seconds earlier, which adds up in the cattle call known as flying. Hotels give you complementary bottles of shampoo, so no worries. Interview no problem.

What I *did* do, however, once I got home, was to go out and buy a small bottle of something with writing on it. If I recall, it was a bottle of My Little Pony Body Glitter for Girls or some other feminine girly thing. I emptied that and used it for my shampoo bottle.

Next time I went through TSA, the screener looks at my freedom bag, looks at salt and pepper hair thirty-something Asian male me for a split second too long, then lets me pass without challenge. Me, with a big ****-eating grin on my face.

If Astroglide came in something between the 2.5 and 5 oz bottle you can bet I'd be using that for my shampoo bottle.

Come next year when I interview for attending jobs, I just might.
 
Here's an example of TSA *******edness, and this is not made up a la OP.

I have a big bottle of shampoo at home, the brand I can't buy little sample bottles of, so I bought a small empty bottle at the drugstore and filled it with shampoo from home.

So I'm flying here and there for residency interviews, and at one airport out of the half dozen I flew through, one time, the TSA screener looks at my freedom baggie and pulls out the bottle.

"What's this?"
"Shampoo."
"How come it doesn't have any writing on it?"
"That shampoo doesn't come in that size so I put it in a bottle from the drugstore."
"I have to take this - how do I know what's really in here?"
"Um, okay."

So, I give him the bottle, keeping my thoughts to myself. If I were some pre-med hero, I'd argue that if I *really* wanted to be all stealthy, I'd empty out a bottle with writing on it and put whatever liquid I wanted. Like 12 year old Scotch, or enough doses of LSD to trip out everyone in San Francisco.

But no, I gave him the bottle. No argument, everyone gets on the plane thirty seconds earlier, which adds up in the cattle call known as flying. Hotels give you complementary bottles of shampoo, so no worries. Interview no problem.

What I *did* do, however, once I got home, was to go out and buy a small bottle of something with writing on it. If I recall, it was a bottle of My Little Pony Body Glitter for Girls or some other feminine girly thing. I emptied that and used it for my shampoo bottle.

Next time I went through TSA, the screener looks at my freedom bag, looks at salt and pepper hair thirty-something Asian male me for a split second too long, then lets me pass without challenge. Me, with a big ****-eating grin on my face.

If Astroglide came in something between the 2.5 and 5 oz bottle you can bet I'd be using that for my shampoo bottle.

Come next year when I interview for attending jobs, I just might.

Now THAT is creativity. I'd hire you on the spot if you told me that story. 👍
 
it's very painful to argue science with people. You'll be amazed how confident people can be spouting something that is incorrect, and no matter how perfectly you explain it, until that flip switches in their head and they become open to your explaining, it won't make any sense.

Just like those Christian/Mormons walking around my campus believing they need to "save" me or I shall burn in hell/face God's wrath. Asked them how they could believe in intelligent design and they gave me all this religious crap.
 
3-1-1 for carry-ons = 3.4 ounce bottle or less (by volume) ; 1 quart-sized, clear, plastic, zip-top bag; 1 bag per passenger placed in screening bin. One-quart bag per person limits the total liquid volume each traveler can bring. 3.4 oz. container size is a security measure.

http://www.tsa.gov/311/index.shtm

I never understood this rule, 5 people with 3.4oz of fluid is 17 oz of fluid. I don't get how reducing the fluid amount does anything for our safety. The logical safety step to me would be to have no fluids.
 
I never understood this rule, 5 people with 3.4oz of fluid is 17 oz of fluid. I don't get how reducing the fluid amount does anything for our safety. The logical safety step to me would be to have no fluids.

You can also carry more than one 3.4 oz bottle (as many as you can fit in the bag) The whole point is to limit the total volume of liquid someone could carry.

I'm not entirely sure it's a useful policy, as someone could carry something like nitroglycerin in a 3.4 oz bottle quite easily anyways, but who knows.
 
hahaha:laugh::laugh::laugh:. this is quite the SDN backfire.

No kidding, the OP got SHUT DOWN dang...these numerous threads about med school finances n stuff must be getting to pple on here

EDIT: I wondey why this is even in pre-allo. Just glad to be in before :lock: 😀
 
Do you think if you hadnt argued and just ate the $2.49 for a new shave gel you might of made it in time before they ran out of seats?
 
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Do you think if you hadnt argued and just ate the 2.49 for a new shave gel you might of made it in time before they ran out of seats?

That put a funny image in my head of a guy taking out his shaving gel in the security line and spreading it over his face and shaving, using just enough to leave 2.49 ounces in the bottle :laugh:
 
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