So so so mad

[hopefulvet21]

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I think this website offers a really convincing argument on the situation. It pretty much sums up how I feel about it...

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=hatekids2

 

[twelvetigers]

I was bit three times by three different rottweilers... two vaccinated, one grudgingly observed at the insistence of my mom. My lesson? Don't run at friend's houses (if they have rotties). Lol. Also, a mutt, because I touched her puppies and she decided she didn't like it... all by the age of 14.

As someone who actually wants children someday (kinda get the feeling that I'm outnumbered on this thread?) I hope to raise my child(ren) to have enough sense to stay out of backyards and away from strange dogs - for their own welfare! Of course, I have every intention of a house in the country, so they might have other things to learn. Like, staying off the pond/river when it's frozen in the winter... leaving wild animals alone...

Point is, I think that the problem is stupid parents, not stupid children. At least somewhat.

 

[No Imagination]

My opinion in this matter (thread) doesn't seem to be the consensus- but, for the hell of it - if one of those rots had killed you (or severally mangled you, leaving you with permanent disabilities), would you still feel it was your parents fault for not telling you not to go into your friends house with rots? Or the owners of the Rots for letting you come into their house in the first place?

Or - your own kid wants to play at their friends house, they run in (with your kids friend, and your kid is mauled by the rots), still your fault for not teaching your kid well enough, or the dogs owners for allowing visitors in their house?

 

[hopefulvet21]

Being invited into the house and getting bit by a dangerous dog and trespassing on private property and getting bit are two different things. In this case, the kid was trespassing. He was not invited into the house. And whether the kid was bit or mangled does not change who is at fault. If he was hurt more severely, it would still be his fault for trespassing. If you go trespassing on someone's property and trip on a loose wire and scrape your knee, too bad, it's your fault. If you go on someone's property and break your leg tripping over a loose wire, too bad, it's still your fault. You shouldn't have been there in the first place. Being hurt more severely for doing something stupid does not exempt you from blame.

 

[ckgilabert]

its sorta annoying right now because my mom offerred to take care of my nephew. anyway, he's 1.5 yrs old and in the 'hitting and biting' phase. (which i think isn't a 'phase' cuz i've never done it) anyway....he's been kicked out of daycare so my mom is taking care of him.

WELL, he constantly tries to run after my german shepherd to touch him and my dog is just plain scared of him. he's been slapped in the face and on the back and i feel like i'm the only one that is defending my dog.

so the other day, my nephew runs after my dog, and my dog ran away and growled. so my sister in law picked up her kid and was like "i dont want you to get bit in the face".

that was totally offensive.

im sorry, but why cant you just watch your kid?? you're at MY house...which i like to say is MY DOGS house. im NOT going to kick my dog outside or lock him in my room.


anyway, what would you guys do?? i didnt offer to babysit, so i just keep telling my mom to watch the kid.


oh, and just so you know....he's already made my maltese cry. the kid, not my dog.

 

[nyanko]

My opinion in this matter (thread) doesn't seem to be the consensus- but, for the hell of it - if one of those rots had killed you (or severally mangled you, leaving you with permanent disabilities), would you still feel it was your parents fault for not telling you not to go into your friends house with rots? Or the owners of the Rots for letting you come into their house in the first place?

Why does it have to be 100% one or the other? The world is not black and white, you know?

I'm not going to speak for her, but as far as I'm concerned, had I gotten seriously injured or killed in one of my dumb little stunts as a kid I would feel that it was mostly my own fault, honestly. I mean even as a kid I can't say that I didn't KNOW that people broke legs/arms and worse doing things that I did, or that I shouldn't try to pedal my bike down the steep gravel driveway as fast as possible and see how far I could skid in the road (leading to getting hit by a car)...I just did that stuff anyway. Perhaps my parents should have sheltered me more, I don't know...but at least I have interesting stories now?

I personally own a dog who is aggressive towards people coming into our house or yard unannounced and uninvited. I don't doubt that he would attack a person who hopped our fence or broke into our house. When people come to my house I take every precaution possible to ensure that they are safe - he knows that if I've invited someone in, they're allowed to be there. I also don't ever have children in my house and make sure I let adult guests know how the dog is. But if something like what happened in the OP would happen at my house, I would not be willing to accept any of the blame for it, no.

 

[No Imagination]

Being invited into the house and getting bit by a dangerous dog and trespassing on private property and getting bit are two different things. In this case, the kid was trespassing. He was not invited into the house.

See, I took it as he was invited into the house...

Don't run at friend's houses (if they have rotties). <--- Made me think she was not trespassing...

I personally own a dog who is aggressive towards people coming into our house or yard unannounced and uninvited. I don't doubt that he would attack a person who hopped our fence or broke into our house. When people come to my house I take every precaution possible to ensure that they are safe - he knows that if I've invited someone in, they're allowed to be there. I also don't ever have children in my house and make sure I let adult guests know how the dog is. But if something like what happened in the OP would happen at my house, I would not be willing to accept any of the blame for it, no.

The OP was a blurry line as far as I am concerned as it was a housing development with no fence up. Certainly not saying the kid was in the right - only saying that if you want to protect yourself, you need to take on extra responsibilities.

But that is the point I'm trying to make - I think. All i am saying - is i believe if you have an aggressive dog, you have an increased responsibility to protect yourself and others.

Why do you go through the trouble of "taking every precaution possible to ensure that they are safe"? I assume its to protect others from your dog - and I assume you wouldn't allow people to go in alone and water your plants with the dog their while you were on vacation.

My best friend had an aggressive Rot and Afgan (yeah, very aggressive Afgan, who knew). Soon as I learned they were there, I stood outside until someone let me in the house. They knew they were aggressive, and warned me, and restrained them so I could go in and out. Thats the level of responsibility I'm referring to.

Im obviously not going to win this argument (and its not one of my strongest) - and while I agree it is not black and white - a lot of the statements I was citing did make black and white premises.

 

[nyanko]

See, I took it as he was invited into the house...

Don't run at friend's houses (if they have rotties). <--- Made me think she was not trespassing...

Yes, but doing something erratic (running around) that triggered the dog.

But that is the point I'm trying to make - I think. All i am saying - is i believe if you have an aggressive dog, you have an increased responsibility to protect yourself and others.

Why do you go through the trouble of "taking every precaution possible to ensure that they are safe"? I assume its to protect others from your dog - and I assume you wouldn't allow people to go in alone and water your plants with the dog their while you were on vacation.

Absolutely, however, if a person made a move towards me while in the house, or made a sudden movement that my dog was suspicious of (like running around), I can't guarantee that he wouldn't be triggered by it. I don't have kids (who are more prone to doing those sorts of things) at my house, because I am not a fan of them and don't really know people who have them, so it's a moot point I guess.

My best friend had an aggressive Rot and Afgan (yeah, very aggressive Afgan, who knew).

I did. Afghan Hounds are big stubborn aloof jerks.

 

[sumstorm]

its sorta annoying right now because my mom offerred to take care of my nephew.

so the other day, my nephew runs after my dog, and my dog ran away and growled. so my sister in law picked up her kid and was like "i dont want you to get bit in the face".

im sorry, but why cant you just watch your kid?? you're at MY house...which i like to say is MY DOGS house. im NOT going to kick my dog outside or lock him in my room.

anyway, what would you guys do?? i didnt offer to babysit, so i just keep telling my mom to watch the kid.

Is it YOUR house or is it YOUR MOTHER'S house? If it is your house, ban kids. If it is your mother's house, take responsibility for personally protecting your dog from the child, even if that means putting a lock on a bedroom door and confining your pet. It isn't fair to leave the dog in a situation where he has to growl...and potentially bite, to escape a child that everyone knows is going to harrass the dog. Sounds like the child has your mother's permission to be there (which makes it sound like it is her home, meaning that the dog and you are also there with her permission.) The lock isn't to keep the dog in, it is to keep the kid out. I would also lock myself in the room with the dog with an ill behaved child in the household. Your options are to deal with the kid directly or deal with the dog directly....and I bet you have more success with the second option.

Also, I actually think kids should hear that they can get bit...and that it can be in the face, and that it will hurt. I say it a lot. Every time some kid charges up to my dogs (all of whom are actually softies with kids.) In the same instant I will gladly welcome the affections to my dogs of a child who asks politelty to pet them. So what is wrong with grabbing a kid and saying 'I don't want you bit' if that is a real potential to how they are behaving?

I guess, for me, it realisticly comes down to who owns the house. I think they dictate what the priorities are in that household.

 

[Pandacinny]

Sumstorm, I agree totally. I've worked with dogs and kids and have had to mediate between the two. Sometimes, we need to make small sacrifices or changes to keep everyone safe. Don't let the nephew near your Maltese- lock both dogs in secure rooms or secure crates when the nephew visits. I can assure that if your GSD does bite your nephew, nobody will care who was "at fault." Especially since your nephew is so young he doesn't quite have the cognitive function to know better. At this point, any bites that happen would be because of failure to properly manage the situation - so they'd be your fault or your mom's fault, not your nephew's.

This isn't really an issue of spoiled kids vs beleaguerd pet owners. It's an issue of general responsibility and good management. I mean, sometimes things will happen, like in the OPs case, but even then you just deal with the situation in the most responsible way you can. That doesn't mean screaming at a kid about how he deserves what he got, but it can mean helping him out, cooperating with the law politely, and explaining to the kid that not all dogs are nice and he should use the sidewalk in the future.

 

[twelvetigers]

Err, to clarify... they were "playful" biting. I didn't enjoy it (especially the one that tackled me first) but I wasn't, to my knowledge, at risk of being mangled.

I wasn't trying to relate directly to the OP's story - this was just a different perspective, my own experience. I got so used to my sweet, fat old dog that these powerhouse chomp-happy rotties took me completely off guard.

Really, I was just sharing a story...

 

[zpinkpanther]

This may not be a popular opinion, and I'll probably get flak for it, but whatever. I'm tired of the notion that everyone's children are "precious" and we all have to sacrifice to keep them safe from themselves even when their own parents are too stupid to take care of them or teach them common sense. If a kid has shoddy parents who don't bother teaching them how to not do stupid, life-endangering things and the kid dies or gets maimed by doing one of those things, I consider it natural selection. People who choose not to have children shouldn't be held responsible for raising or watching out for someone else's offspring and certainly shouldn't be prosecuted for injury caused to said child when that child does something foolish on their property. It sucks that our legal system is set up to coddle *****s.

Um, I'm slow and vet school swallows my soul, so I'm late in responding to this...

I agree 100%. Kids these days are way too spoiled (I feel old typing that 🙄). If I had pulled something like that (OP's situation) when I was a kid, my parents would have been like, well, you shouldn't have hit the dog, ya idjut. I was taught that if I didn't know an animal, I should walk away calmly in the other direction. I hate that the dog/owner is blamed in this situation. Either A) the parents need to teach the kid to respect animals better or B) the kid needs to not be a *****. Depending on which one, either the kid or the parent deserves a Darwin award.

Although I'm not a fan of most kids, I'm not opposed to having kids of my own someday, because I'll teach them not to do stupid crap like this.

 

[CatVet2Be]

Here's another situation similar to ckgilabert's. My sister in law has an 18 month old who likes to run around screaming and pulling on my animals. The cats are quick enough to run away but I don't ever want the dog to get cornered because she's big girl and could inflict significant damage. I've told my SIL to watch her kid, if she insists on bringing him over and letting him run around then she has to keep an eye on him. I bluntly told her that when (not if) the dog finally has enough and bites him, it will be his face because it's at eye level and her fault for not watching him. This point finally got across to my MIL after the dog growled at said kid because she tried to put him on the dog (since when does she moonlight as a pony?).

So in my home, with fair warning, if the kid manages to get to where the dog is (I do try to keep her separate for safety's sake) and the dog bites or scratches him, legally I know I can be liable but who's fault is it really?

In my opinion if I were boiling water and I told you not to put your hand in it but you did anyway, it's not my fault if you burnt yourself, it's your fault for being a *******. But I also still hold out hope for common sense and continue to be disappointed.

 

[ckgilabert]

Here's another situation similar to ckgilabert's. My sister in law has an 18 month old who likes to run around screaming and pulling on my animals. The cats are quick enough to run away but I don't ever want the dog to get cornered because she's big girl and could inflict significant damage. I've told my SIL to watch her kid, if she insists on bringing him over and letting him run around then she has to keep an eye on him. I bluntly told her that when (not if) the dog finally has enough and bites him, it will be his face because it's at eye level and her fault for not watching him. This point finally got across to my MIL after the dog growled at said kid because she tried to put him on the dog (since when does she moonlight as a pony?).

So in my home, with fair warning, if the kid manages to get to where the dog is (I do try to keep her separate for safety's sake) and the dog bites or scratches him, legally I know I can be liable but who's fault is it really?

In my opinion if I were boiling water and I told you not to put your hand in it but you did anyway, it's not my fault if you burnt yourself, it's your fault for being a *******. But I also still hold out hope for common sense and continue to be disappointed.

See, that's how i feel too.

and well, its mine and my sisters house. i've tried to get my mom to leave, or convince my sister to have my mom leave....but my mom has no where to go. anyway...the bad part about it---my mom thinks it's her house.

so yeah, today seemed a little better. i straight out told my mom and his mom that i'm not watching him and to keep him away from the dogs.

and i get what you guys said, about saying that the dog could bite the kids face. i'll mention that to them tomorrow. it's just annoying...cuz I don't even like kids.

i just think it's ******ed that if someone comes into my house, and if my dog were to bite, that it'd be my fault. it reminds me of those stories where home intruders get hurt and sue the home owner. wtf?!

it's also annoying cuz the neighbor kids (6 and 8 years old) will hug and kiss gruffi and play chase...and he's ok with them....cuz they're gentle. and i know it might be a lot to ask of a 1.5 yr old...but it's not. it's all about parenting

 

[Pandacinny]

it's also annoying cuz the neighbor kids (6 and 8 years old) will hug and kiss gruffi and play chase...and he's ok with them....cuz they're gentle. and i know it might be a lot to ask of a 1.5 yr old...but it's not. it's all about parenting

Except that it IS a lot to ask of a toddler. If he were five or eight or ten, it wouldn't be a lot. But he's only one and a half. He's a toddler. He doesn't have the cognitive ability to understand to stay away from your dogs or to read dog body language (something ADULTS have problems with) or to remember to listen all the time. I understand frustration with his parents - managing their child isn't a lot to ask of them, but it's not the baby's fault that his brain is still developing and he isn't perfectly rational and polite all the time yet.

I sure hope all the people saying it's "Darwinism" if a kid gets bitten by dog or that stupid kids should know better don;t expect the neighbors to slow down if Fluffy finds that broken window screen and escapes into the neighboring driveway. Stupid cat - should've known better than to go near scary cars. And it's not the neighbor's responsibility to look out for other people's animals. 🙄 (My point being that it makes no sense to be mad at a cat or dog for doing something they didn't understand just as it makes no sense to blame very young children. They don't have the same cognitive abilities as adults and they don't judge risk in the same way.)

 

[zpinkpanther]

Except that it IS a lot to ask of a toddler. If he were five or eight or ten, it wouldn't be a lot. But he's only one and a half. He's a toddler. He doesn't have the cognitive ability to understand to stay away from your dogs or to read dog body language (something ADULTS have problems with) or to remember to listen all the time. I understand frustration with his parents - managing their child isn't a lot to ask of them, but it's not the baby's fault that his brain is still developing and he isn't perfectly rational and polite all the time yet.

I sure hope all the people saying it's "Darwinism" if a kid gets bitten by dog or that stupid kids should know better don;t expect the neighbors to slow down if Fluffy finds that broken window screen and escapes into the neighboring driveway. Stupid cat - should've known better than to go near scary cars. And it's not the neighbor's responsibility to look out for other people's animals. 🙄 (My point being that it makes no sense to be mad at a cat or dog for doing something they didn't understand just as it makes no sense to blame very young children. They don't have the same cognitive abilities as adults and they don't judge risk in the same way.)

Just to clarify, when I mentioned the Darwin awards, I was referring to the OP's situation where the boy seemed to be a bit older (my guess was at least 8 or 10?) since he was running around the neighborhood by himself carrying a soccer goal. I think it was kind of a good thing that that kid got bitten (in the LEG, it would be bad if it were the face or something) because he didn't seem to be hurt too badly and hopefully it will teach him that if a dog is barking, you don't hit her with a freaking pole, you move calmly in the other direction. If it were a wild animal he had done that to, he may very well be dead, and getting bitten in the leg by a dog that's UTD on vaccines is a whole lot better way to learn that lesson.

But of course, if the kid is a toddler, they can't be expected to know what's dangerous. In that case, I think it's the parents' responsibility to supervise interaction with any animal (or any other thing that would be dangerous).

Alright, sorry for the rant. This subject just gets me a little riled up. 😉

 

[sumstorm]

To me, if your sister and you own the house, divide the house up. Kid is NOT ALLOWED in this set of rooms. Dog is NOT ALLOWED in this set of rooms. If need be, install doors with locks.

I hold adults responsible for their own children or children they have assumed responsibility for (ie babysitting, mentoring, fostering, etc) if the kid is young enough to need adult supervision. If they aren't supervised, the assumption is that they are responsible for themselves.

I also grew up in the 'if you get bit, you're in trouble, because you caused it' household. And my younger cousing DID get bit in the face by my great grandmothers dog (mean little thing) and he was also lost all privelages for climbing under a chair and reaching for the dog. Between that, the stitches, and the lack of sympathy, he learned there are consequences for actions and that adults tell you things for a reason. I think he was 6 at the time. BTW, he owns pets now, as an adult.

Despite a household that included 8 dogs (2 with major aggression issues) and typically another 4-6 dogs at any time (parents trained guardian and herding dogs) I didn't get bit as a child. I do think part of that was constantly hearing 'don't do that' and 'if you get bit it is your fault' but another part of it was that my parents from very early on did not park me in front of a TV and expect it to baby sit. I was expected to help with picking up the house, helping with dinner and dishes, etc. Yes, even as a toddler. The just generally didn't let me be in a different room than they were in.

Something that amazed me in Europe was that dogs would be tied outside of stores while their owners were inside, and the dogs were calm and patient...and that kids never ran up and hugged them. I can't imagine that in this country.

 

[hopefulvet21]

Something that amazed me in Europe was that dogs would be tied outside of stores while their owners were inside, and the dogs were calm and patient...and that kids never ran up and hugged them. I can't imagine that in this country.

People do that all the time in Manhattan, not just europe.

 

[Mylez]

Sumstorm - your parents trained herding dogs and you never were bitten as a child? Wow! Those herding dogs must have had some resolve, although I guess you probably counted as their livestock in the dog's eyes.

I would never let a child and a dog (that wasn't connected to the child in any way, e.g. child visiting or dog visiting) be together unsupervised at such a young age. I would not want to be responsible for generating a fear of dogs in the child. Even the most solid, resilient dog tires of grabby hands - I think prevention is absolutely key.

So the child is visiting. Big deal - it's not going to kill the dog to have it crated/separated for a few hours. If it's a long term thing, then some sort of compromise must be met, obviously.

Whenever people are invited to my house my dog is crated and slowly introduced. It is a big difference between inviting someone into my home and having someone just trespass - and I really think the law should discriminate (even though in some states it does not).