SOAP/Scramble 2021 Thread

[vbomn]

I know it's a bit late but I wanted to open up this year's thread for people who wanted to help others in the process of soaping and scrambling. It is also a safe place for people to commiserate.

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[ThoracicGuy]

I'm really kinda surprised that we had no real threads on the SOAP/Scramble this year. Usually these threads are much busier.

 

[Roxas]

I'm really kinda surprised that we had no real threads on the SOAP/Scramble this year. Usually these threads are much busier.

I think most have migrated to reddit for this, which is a shame as I received a lot of helpful messages here when I went through the soap.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

I think most have migrated to reddit for this, which is a shame as I received a lot of helpful messages here when I went through the soap.

I've not heard all that great of stuff from the reddit med school forums...

 

[Roxas]

I've not heard all that great of stuff from the reddit med school forums...

Maybe not, but I had my eyes over there as well as here during match week and the reddit soap threads were booming. Thousands of messages per day, while over here was crickets.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Maybe not, but I had my eyes over there as well as here during match week and the reddit soap threads were booming. Thousands of messages per day, while over here was crickets.

 

[bonecrusher22]

SDN only has its horrible reputation to blame. I expect this trend to continue as reasonable individuals do all they can to avoid the toxicity.

Nobody wants to be kicked having to SOAP has already got them down. Can’t say I blame them...

 

[ThoracicGuy]

SDN only has its horrible reputation to blame. I expect this trend to continue as reasonable individuals do all they can to avoid the toxicity.

Nobody wants to be kicked having to SOAP has already got them down. Can’t say I blame them...

Have you read the previous SOAP threads? They don't have people kicking them when they are down...

And I'd say reddit can be far more toxic. But what do I know...

 

[Roxas]

SDN only has its horrible reputation to blame. I expect this trend to continue as reasonable individuals do all they can to avoid the toxicity.

Nobody wants to be kicked having to SOAP has already got them down. Can’t say I blame them...

What are you on about?! Reddit is a wretched hive of scum and villainy. Far more toxic than anything I've seen on sdn, which I've been around for more than a minute.

I went through the SOAP 2 years ago and credit this site as being a tremendous resource during that time with a very supportive community. We all get that pre-allo sucks, but that's more due to the insufferable nature of naive punk college kids more than anything unique to sdn. The med student and professional forums by and large have a strong sense of community and are very supportive.

 

[bonecrusher22]

What are you on about?! Reddit is a wretched hive of scum and villainy. Far more toxic than anything I've seen on sdn, which I've been around for more than a minute.

I went through the SOAP 2 years ago and credit this site as being a tremendous resource during that time with a very supportive community. We all get that pre-allo sucks, but that's more due to the insufferable nature of naive punk college kids more than anything unique to sdn. The med student and professional forums by and large have a strong sense of community and are very supportive.

Have you read the previous SOAP threads? They don't have people kicking them when they are down...

And I'd say reddit can be far more toxic. But what do I know...

Perhaps all that is true, but the reputation precedes everything and people’s perception of this site means they never experience the good that SDN can offer.

I can’t say I’ve seen the soap threads of the past, but I’ve definitely seen a lot tearing others down on here in the past. It is what it is.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Perhaps all that is true, but the reputation precedes everything and people’s perception of this site means they never experience the good that SDN can offer.

I can’t say I’ve seen the soap threads of the past, but I’ve definitely seen a lot tearing others down on here in the past. It is what it is.

While there can be some nasty people, I suspect quite a bit of it is people coming in wanting a specific response and getting advice they don't like to hear. Then it's called a horrible place with terrible people. I don't want to sugarcoat advice here, personally. People needing advice shouldn't be looking for an echo chamber, which is what reddit seems to turn into frequently.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Perhaps all that is true, but the reputation precedes everything and people’s perception of this site means they never experience the good that SDN can offer.

I can’t say I’ve seen the soap threads of the past, but I’ve definitely seen a lot tearing others down on here in the past. It is what it is.

It's a perception we're aware of, and overall it's something we've tried to work on over the past several years. I think it's gotten better. I agree with @ThoracicGuy that there is a line between "getting torn down" and people crying foul just for getting advice they don't like. We do our best to strike a reasonable balance.

I do agree that the prior SOAP threads have generally been pretty positive. Not sure why one didn't get started this time--I generally get the sense that it just takes one person to start the thread and then it snowballs.

 

[j4pac]

SDN only has its horrible reputation to blame. I expect this trend to continue as reasonable individuals do all they can to avoid the toxicity.

Nobody wants to be kicked having to SOAP has already got them down. Can’t say I blame them...

And yet...you’re here

 

[candbgirl]

And yet...you’re here

Exactly. And just joined on Sunday. 🤔

 

[j4pac]

PERHAPS SDN should market itself in two categories: 1) advice and 2) emotional support.

The problem is that many people come to this forum, post a sob story and then get angry when people try to help solve their problem. They don’t want their problem to be solved...they just want reassurance and to be patted on the back. This is especially true of some failure threads (failing to get into Med school, being placed on probation, failing to match, etc). It’s not uncommon that those threads are misinterpreted as “what are my chances?”

 

[Dral]

PERHAPS SDN should market itself in two categories: 1) advice and 2) emotional support.

The problem is that many people come to this forum, post a sob story and then get angry when people try to help solve their problem. They don’t want their problem to be solved...they just want reassurance and to be patted on the back. This is especially true of some failure threads (failing to get into Med school, being placed on probation, failing to match, etc). It’s not uncommon that those threads are misinterpreted as “what are my chances?”

Or when people post a thread and essentially 'ignore' all the stuff they don't want to hear (yet is probably the most relevant to their situation).

 

[Roxas]

Perhaps all that is true, but the reputation precedes everything and people’s perception of this site means they never experience the good that SDN can offer.

I can’t say I’ve seen the soap threads of the past, but I’ve definitely seen a lot tearing others down on here in the past. It is what it is.

The internet clearly isn't for everyone. And neither is medicine.

 

[JoaoMoutinho]

PERHAPS SDN should market itself in two categories: 1) advice and 2) emotional support.

The problem is that many people come to this forum, post a sob story and then get angry when people try to help solve their problem. They don’t want their problem to be solved...they just want reassurance and to be patted on the back. This is especially true of some failure threads (failing to get into Med school, being placed on probation, failing to match, etc). It’s not uncommon that those threads are misinterpreted as “what are my chances?”

So basically, this:

 

[BruceWaynMD]

I’m a USMD step1/2 203/229 passed first attempt wanted to do peds. I didn’t matched SOAP’d into TY. Really disappointed in myself and my family doesn’t understand. I will be the first doctor in my family and I’m the first college grad. They’re happy I got a job and are ecstatic that I won’t be leaving home and tell me that I should be grateful. Anyways not to get side tracked what can I do with a TY? I was told for peds I will have to go through the match again. Idk if I’m mentally capable of going through it again. I am traumatized. I guess my question is what are my options after my transitional year? What specialties will take me as a PGY-2? Is there a way that I won’t have to participate in the match and get a advanced position or any position? What if I don’t match again if I do participate in the match? Any information about life during and after TY would be great thank you

 

[rokshana]

I’m a USMD step1/2 203/229 passed first attempt wanted to do peds. I didn’t matched SOAP’d into TY. Really disappointed in myself and my family doesn’t understand. I will be the first doctor in my family and I’m the first college grad. They’re happy I got a job and are ecstatic that I won’t be leaving home and tell me that I should be grateful. Anyways not to get side tracked what can I do with a TY? I was told for peds I will have to go through the match again. Idk if I’m mentally capable of going through it again. I am traumatized. I guess my question is what are my options after my transitional year? What specialties will take me as a PGY-2? Is there a way that I won’t have to participate in the match and get a advanced position or any position? What if I don’t match again if I do participate in the match? Any information about life during and after TY would be great thank you

Interesting that you matched a TY and not peds...TY are usually fairly popular and competitive since it’s generally advance specialty applicants that go for them...
In a few weeks, would try to set up an appt with a peds PD or aPD to go over you application and see where you need improvement for next year.
Try to get as many peds rotations during your TY year to get to know people ... try to have them early to help with your application next year. And see if you can get a spot at the place you will be for your TY... if they like you , it can go a long way.
Harder due to covid, but try to go to peds meetings, either regional or National... submit a poster and go to networking functions at the meetings.
Find a merit in peds to help with guiding you through the process.

sorry missed the part of soap’ed into TY...
If there are grand rounds/morning report s at you hospital, ask if you can attend.

next year ...apply broadly and widely...lots of applications 100-200 to hopefully get at least 10 invites.... how many did you apply to this year and how many invites did you get?

 

[GoSpursGo]

I’m a USMD step1/2 203/229 passed first attempt wanted to do peds. I didn’t matched SOAP’d into TY. Really disappointed in myself and my family doesn’t understand. I will be the first doctor in my family and I’m the first college grad. They’re happy I got a job and are ecstatic that I won’t be leaving home and tell me that I should be grateful. Anyways not to get side tracked what can I do with a TY? I was told for peds I will have to go through the match again. Idk if I’m mentally capable of going through it again. I am traumatized. I guess my question is what are my options after my transitional year? What specialties will take me as a PGY-2? Is there a way that I won’t have to participate in the match and get a advanced position or any position? What if I don’t match again if I do participate in the match? Any information about life during and after TY would be great thank you

I'm so sorry to hear this happened

Briefly, I agree you probably will need to go through the match again. Definitely try to get as many peds rotations as you can, build connections at your home institution, and see if they would be willing to take you.

Aside from that, I would suspect that if you apply more broadly you could get a spot next year. But I'm not sure what your program list looked like or how many interviews you got this year.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

I’m a USMD step1/2 203/229 passed first attempt wanted to do peds. I didn’t matched SOAP’d into TY. Really disappointed in myself and my family doesn’t understand. I will be the first doctor in my family and I’m the first college grad. They’re happy I got a job and are ecstatic that I won’t be leaving home and tell me that I should be grateful. Anyways not to get side tracked what can I do with a TY? I was told for peds I will have to go through the match again. Idk if I’m mentally capable of going through it again. I am traumatized. I guess my question is what are my options after my transitional year? What specialties will take me as a PGY-2? Is there a way that I won’t have to participate in the match and get a advanced position or any position? What if I don’t match again if I do participate in the match? Any information about life during and after TY would be great thank you

Specialties you can enter would include Radiology, Anesthesia, Derm, Optho, PM&R, Preventative Med, and Rad Onc. With your numbers, of course, some of these aren't options, but that's the list.

FM, IM, Surgery, and of course Peds would all require specific intern years.

 

[Hellopitty]

I’m a USMD step1/2 203/229 passed first attempt wanted to do peds. I didn’t matched SOAP’d into TY. Really disappointed in myself and my family doesn’t understand. I will be the first doctor in my family and I’m the first college grad. They’re happy I got a job and are ecstatic that I won’t be leaving home and tell me that I should be grateful. Anyways not to get side tracked what can I do with a TY? I was told for peds I will have to go through the match again. Idk if I’m mentally capable of going through it again. I am traumatized. I guess my question is what are my options after my transitional year? What specialties will take me as a PGY-2? Is there a way that I won’t have to participate in the match and get a advanced position or any position? What if I don’t match again if I do participate in the match? Any information about life during and after TY would be great thank you

Yea i dont blame you for not wanting to go through match again, but do your best at your TY program, reach out to the peds PD, express your interest, losing 1 year is a small price to pay. Maximize your chances of next year by applying to peds and perhaps some advanced or Reserved for physician positions like anesthesia, radiology, etc

Best of luck, it will work out at the end

 

[BruceWaynMD]

I'm so sorry to hear this happened

Briefly, I agree you probably will need to go through the match again. Definitely try to get as many peds rotations as you can, build connections at your home institution, and see if they would be willing to take you.

Aside from that, I would suspect that if you apply more broadly you could get a spot next year. But I'm not sure what your program list looked like or how many interviews you got this year.

I got 10 peds interviews this year

 

[BruceWaynMD]

Interesting that you matched a TY and not peds...TY are usually fairly popular and competitive since it’s generally advance specialty applicants that go for them...
In a few weeks, would try to set up an appt with a peds PD or aPD to go over you application and see where you need improvement for next year.
Try to get as many peds rotations during your TY year to get to know people ... try to have them early to help with your application next year. And see if you can get a spot at the place you will be for your TY... if they like you , it can go a long way.
Harder due to covid, but try to go to peds meetings, either regional or National... submit a poster and go to networking functions at the meetings.
Find a merit in peds to help with guiding you through the process.

sorry missed the part of soap’ed into TY...
If there are grand rounds/morning report s at you hospital, ask if you can attend.

next year ...apply broadly and widely...lots of applications 100-200 to hopefully get at least 10 invites.... how many did you apply to this year and how many invites did you get?

I applied to 30 got 10 interviews that’s what I was told to do

 

[GoSpursGo]

I got 10 peds interviews this year

I applied to 30 got 10 interviews that’s what I was told to do

Yeah... I'm not sure what to tell you. It seems like you did everything right, maybe something was off at the interview stage, but by any reasonable metric I would think you should have matched. This sucks.

Again, try to ingratiate yourself as well as possible with your new institution's peds program. Unless they're a highly competitive program, if you could convince them to take you next year that would be the easiest path forward for you. If that isn't realistic, then I'd pick 50+ completely new programs and apply via ERAS.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

You have not posted anything here about your clinical grades. How did you do in Peds, a Peds SubI, and the rest of your clerkships?

I think the best thing you can do is try to get feedback from the UAMS Peds program about yyour application. I would tell them that you're not going to apply to them again, and you want the honest truth about what happened.

Chances are you were just a weaker candidate, got interviews but were in the bottom 1/4 of everyone's list. Next time, you need to apply more broadly, and I'd consider looking at programs that haven't filled in the past.

If it was a problem with your interview itself, or if there was some other problem with your application, you want the UAMS program to tell you about it. You need to be very open with them -- you don't blame them, you won't be applying again so they can simply be honest with you, and you want to know if you were just less competitive than other applicants.

 

[BruceWaynMD]

Yeah... I'm not sure what to tell you. It seems like you did everything right, maybe something was off at the interview stage, but by any reasonable metric I would think you should have matched. This sucks.

Again, try to ingratiate yourself as well as possible with your new institution's peds program. Unless they're a highly competitive program, if you could convince them to take you next year that would be the easiest path forward for you. If that isn't realistic, then I'd pick 50+ completely new programs and apply via ERAS.

Idk I was thinking I took the step 2 late like a week before rank order list was due I got my score, but then I didn’t match the first round in the SOAP. I don’t think I’m weird or anything my interviews seemed to go well. I’m a AA single mom of a child with special needs and that was my talking point of why I wanted to do peds. I feel like I’m not rude or anything. I’m not sure why no one liked me really I have plenty of friends from diverse backgrounds. I’m not sure anymore. We do a mock interview before ERAS opens told I did great. I guess it’s done no need to sit around wondering. My advisor said he is doing research and will find out. Have appointment with dean tomorrow so she may tell me.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Idk I was thinking I took the step 2 late like a week before rank order list was due I got my score, but then I didn’t match the first round in the SOAP. I don’t think I’m weird or anything my interviews seemed to go well. I’m a AA single mom of a child with special needs and that was my talking point of why I wanted to do peds. I feel like I’m not rude or anything. I’m not sure why no one liked me really I have plenty of friends from diverse backgrounds. I’m not sure anymore. We do a mock interview before ERAS opens told I did great. I guess it’s done no need to sit around wondering. My advisor said he is doing research and will find out. Have appointment with dean tomorrow so she may tell me.

I wish I had something useful to offer you. The one silver lining, potentially, is that I do think if you apply more broadly you're very likely to match next year. 20 years from now this will be a distant memory.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

I'm a little confused how you SOAP'd into a transitional year and not a categorical pediatrics spot considering that typically 2% of all categorical pediatrics spots go unfilled annually. Maybe I just don't know the process that well but in years past, there have typically been more spots available than total number of applicants. The detailed data isn't available for 2021, but in 2020 for Pediatrics, there where 50+ unfilled spots and only 20+ unmatched applicants to pediatrics. Maybe this year was just bad luck?

Either way, seems like trying again is the way to go.

 

[BruceWaynMD]

I'm a little confused how you SOAP'd into a transitional year and not a categorical pediatrics spot considering that typically 2% of all categorical pediatrics spots go unfilled annually. Maybe I just don't know the process that well but in years past, there have typically been more spots available than total number of applicants. The detailed data isn't available for 2021, but in 2020 for Pediatrics, there where 50+ unfilled spots and only 20+ unmatched applicants to pediatrics. Maybe this year was just bad luck?

Either way, seems like trying again is the way to go.

i recall it was about 20 unfilled peds positions and like 50 TY positions available during SOAP. Idk maybe I just suck compared to everyone else. I’ve always got compliments on my interviewing skills in the past, but maybe zoom isn’t for me. I went over this a thousand times what is it about me that no one liked? Was it this or that? Should I have not shared that I’m a single mom? should I have not shared that the reason I wanted to become a doctor is my son has special needs? Should i have not worn braids? I talked to my dean and my dean said she did some investigating at my home program. The attendings that work there all of them loved me, but when pushed one of them said I maybe to authentic. Also that some of the residents didn’t care for me do to some unfavorable conversations. I never had a issue with anyone or a professionalism problem. All my comments and feedback they said to my face and on my evals were good. I’m not an brown noser, but I’ve never been rude or nasty to anyone residents or attendings. If anything, I didn’t have many conversations with the peds residents cause they were all in their own world. I would just ask a question about my patients if I had one. I did my internship after I had to submit my ERAS and only worked with med-peds residents the whole month who were more friendly and acted like they loved me. My ideology was I’m here for my patients and all my patients and their families loved me. She suggested coaching. I asked her about my step scores. she told me they were great. I just don’t get it, but that doesn’t explain everything why didn’t the other programs like me. Regardless, it won’t change the outcome. Talking to my dean yesterday just brought back trauma of not feeling good enough or not sucking up enough or not just being enough that I thought I was over. In my mind I thought I was great! I was confident and had a high self-esteem now I feel lower than nothing. I feel like they broke me. My spirit is gone.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

i recall it was about 20 unfilled peds positions and like 50 TY positions available during SOAP. Idk maybe I just suck compared to everyone else. I’ve always got compliments on my interviewing skills in the past, but maybe zoom isn’t for me. I went over this a thousand times what is it about me that no one liked? Was it this or that? Should I have not shared that I’m a single mom? should I have not shared that the reason I wanted to become a doctor is my son has special needs? Should i have not worn braids? I talked to my dean and my dean said she did some investigating at my home program. The attendings that work there all of them loved me, but when pushed one of them said I maybe to authentic. Also that some of the residents didn’t care for me do to some unfavorable conversations. I never had a issue with anyone or a professionalism problem. All my comments and feedback they said to my face and on my evals were good. I’m not an brown noser, but I’ve never been rude or nasty to anyone residents or attendings. If anything, I didn’t have many conversations with the peds residents cause they were all in their own world. I would just ask a question about my patients if I had one. I did my internship after I had to submit my ERAS and only worked with med-peds residents the whole month who were more friendly and acted like they loved me. My ideology was I’m here for my patients and all my patients and their families loved me. She suggested coaching. I asked her about my step scores. she told me they were great. I just don’t get it, but that doesn’t explain everything why didn’t the other programs like me. Regardless, it won’t change the outcome. Talking to my dean yesterday just brought back trauma of not feeling good enough or not sucking up enough or not just being enough that I thought I was over. In my mind I thought I was great! I was confident and had a high self-esteem now I feel lower than nothing. I feel like they broke me. My spirit is gone.

Sorry, without seeing the interviews it’s hard to know. I mean, where you fall on the rank list is based on a series of things, but I’ve found the interview to be the most dynamic changer after the process is over. Great interviewers move up, poor interviewers move down. I’m not suggesting where you fall in that, just informing of the process. Nothing specifically you mentioned seems like a red flag. However, I will say a negative conversation with the residents could hamper your application at your home institute since PDs will usually ask for resident feedback on candidates. I don’t know what “too authentic” means. That sounds like code words for something else. What that else is I don’t know, but it’s weird feedback.

Anyway, if it’s your passion, reapply. Does the place your doing a transitional year have a peds program? If so, ask to speak with the PD early.

 

[mvenus929]

I'm a little confused how you SOAP'd into a transitional year and not a categorical pediatrics spot considering that typically 2% of all categorical pediatrics spots go unfilled annually. Maybe I just don't know the process that well but in years past, there have typically been more spots available than total number of applicants. The detailed data isn't available for 2021, but in 2020 for Pediatrics, there where 50+ unfilled spots and only 20+ unmatched applicants to pediatrics. Maybe this year was just bad luck?

Either way, seems like trying again is the way to go.

A few years ago, there were only like 20 peds spots available nationally, and everyone who doesn't match tries for any open spot. I haven't heard much about the data since because I'm removed from resident selection, but... it's tough.

 

[BruceWaynMD]

Sorry, without seeing the interviews it’s hard to know. I mean, where you fall on the rank list is based on a series of things, but I’ve found the interview to be the most dynamic changer after the process is over. Great interviewers move up, poor interviewers move down. I’m not suggesting where you fall in that, just informing of the process. Nothing specifically you mentioned seems like a red flag. However, I will say a negative conversation with the residents could hamper your application at your home institute since PDs will usually ask for resident feedback on candidates. I don’t know what “too authentic” means. That sounds like code words for something else. What that else is I don’t know, but it’s weird feedback.

Anyway, if it’s your passion, reapply. Does the place your doing a transitional year have a peds program? If so, ask to speak with the PD early.

The program I’m at is like a dual program. It’s a community hospital but linked to the academic hospital which has a peds program. Which is my home program 😢 where supposedly residents had negative conversations with me. As for the feedback, I didn’t know how to receive it. Being “too authentic” doesn’t help me. But beating myself up about my character is not good for my mental health. I know who I am and I know what I can do. I’m not a perfect person but I’m a decent person. All I can do is do better next time. I only applied in the South so if I had to move I’d be close , so I’ll apply more broadly and apply peds, med/peds, PMR, and anesthesia all around the country. because I can work with kids in all those specialities. I can do IM alone also. I just want the chance to be a doctor. I’ll apply to all of them and try my best that all I can do.

 

[IRattending2021]

I don’t know if this helps at all, or maybe a completely different situation, but one of my good friend who was an attending in an east coast academic institution told me this story.

He and several of his partners interviewed a bunch of people for IR fellowship. One person was very passionate about the field and had a personal connection to the field (something like cancer or liver disease) in a close relative.

My friend thought they interviewed well, being very passionate, and actually shed tear about the family member. All his partners though, vehemently declined to rank this candidate. Short answer would be “too authentic”, and the long answer would be that some had concerns that the great burst of passion for a specific disease area raise the question whether this candidate was interested in treatment for a specific disease rather than interested in the field of IR as a whole. The other concern cited is that many of his partners simply were very taken aback by the emotional intensity displayed during the interview process and became concerned (perhaps unfairly) that this candidate showed too much emotion and whether that could be a red flag or signs of inability to deal with a very emotionally difficult field.

In my personal experience, when I brought up personal matters in an interview, I usually use the narrative to show specific qualities about myself. For example, I would mention that I have friends / family in an area to assure practices that I have interest in a region. I think I brought up cancer in family member once during an interview as a desire to be close to a practice and it was actually one of the interview where I was quickly rejected from.

It’s curious that out of the 5 or so faculty positions I’ve applied to, the only outright rejection post interview occured when I brought up a health condition in a family member. Even then I only brought this up in passing (i.e I would like to be closer to my mom who’s undergoing chemo) and I specifically emphasized that she has had complete response to her treatment. Mind you, I’ve recieved offers at all the other position I applied to and my current position is quite a competitive one so I think I usually interview pretty well.

Unfortunately, many people will not come out and say it, but residents with significant existing responsibilities are dealt a weak hand. Many think those responsiblities may hold distract from clinical duties.

my suggestion for you going forward would be to quickly address the programs’s potential concerns. For example, a sentence or two addressing how you may have set up backup childcare can do a lot to assuage the fear of PD that you may need sudden coverage and can work into a favorable narrative about how you show responsiblity and initiative.

 

[GoSpursGo]

The program I’m at is like a dual program. It’s a community hospital but linked to the academic hospital which has a peds program. Which is my home program 😢 where supposedly residents had negative conversations with me. As for the feedback, I didn’t know how to receive it. Being “too authentic” doesn’t help me. But beating myself up about my character is not good for my mental health. I know who I am and I know what I can do. I’m not a perfect person but I’m a decent person. All I can do is do better next time. I only applied in the South so if I had to move I’d be close , so I’ll apply more broadly and apply peds, med/peds, PMR, and anesthesia all around the country. because I can work with kids in all those specialities. I can do IM alone also. I just want the chance to be a doctor. I’ll apply to all of them and try my best that all I can do.

This really stinks. It's a real pity that being "too authentic" is seen as a negative.

Nevertheless, I think it is a lesson that you should keep in mind going forward. It isn't fair, but I would probably keep some personal information close to the vest next time around. I still strongly believe that you will land in a peds spot at some point in the future--it just isn't a competitive specialty, and if the only "problem" is that you were too open on your interviews, well, that's easy to fix.

 

[BruceWaynMD]

I don’t know if this helps at all, or maybe a completely different situation, but one of my good friend who was an attending in an east coast academic institution told me this story.

He and several of his partners interviewed a bunch of people for IR fellowship. One person was very passionate about the field and had a personal connection to the field (something like cancer or liver disease) in a close relative.

My friend thought they interviewed well, being very passionate, and actually shed tear about the family member. All his partners though, vehemently declined to rank this candidate. Short answer would be “too authentic”, and the long answer would be that some had concerns that the great burst of passion for a specific disease area raise the question whether this candidate was interested in treatment for a specific disease rather than interested in the field of IR as a whole. The other concern cited is that many of his partners simply were very taken aback by the emotional intensity displayed during the interview process and became concerned (perhaps unfairly) that this candidate showed too much emotion and whether that could be a red flag or signs of inability to deal with a very emotionally difficult field.

In my personal experience, when I brought up personal matters in an interview, I usually use the narrative to show specific qualities about myself. For example, I would mention that I have friends / family in an area to assure practices that I have interest in a region. I think I brought up cancer in family member once during an interview as a desire to be close to a practice and it was actually one of the interview where I was quickly rejected from.

It’s curious that out of the 5 or so faculty positions I’ve applied to, the only outright rejection post interview occured when I brought up a health condition in a family member. Even then I only brought this up in passing (i.e I would like to be closer to my mom who’s undergoing chemo) and I specifically emphasized that she has had complete response to her treatment. Mind you, I’ve recieved offers at all the other position I applied to and my current position is quite a competitive one so I think I usually interview pretty well.

Unfortunately, many people will not come out and say it, but residents with significant existing responsibilities are dealt a weak hand. Many think those responsiblities may hold distract from clinical duties.

my suggestion for you going forward would be to quickly address the programs’s potential concerns. For example, a sentence or two addressing how you may have set up backup childcare can do a lot to assuage the fear of PD that you may need sudden coverage and can work into a favorable narrative about how you show responsiblity and initiative.

From here on out. I will just leave the part about my son out. I won’t even mention that I have a kid. Sad that I have to do this but I have to do what I have to do. I will take it out of my personal statement also. TY for this advice

 

[BruceWaynMD]

This really stinks. It's a real pity that being "too authentic" is seen as a negative.

Nevertheless, I think it is a lesson that you should keep in mind going forward. It isn't fair, but I would probably keep some personal information close to the vest next time around. I still strongly believe that you will land in a peds spot at some point in the future--it just isn't a competitive specialty, and if the only "problem" is that you were too open on your interviews, well, that's easy to fix.

I decided to leave out that I have a kid next time let alone a kid with special needs. I didn’t think it was a big deal but from the other comment it seems like it is as it could cause bias. I will try this approach tell my dean how I took her info and what I’m going to do next time.

 

[gutonc]

From here on out. I will just leave the part about my son out. I won’t even mention that I have a kid. Sad that I have to do this but I have to do what I have to do. I will take it out of my personal statement also. TY for this advice

It is 150% bulls*** that you have to "hide" that part of you. It's honestly a part of your experience, history and personal knowledge (forget your book knowledge which is obviously good enough to graduate med school) that will make you a great physician.

But I hope that you didn't get advice to include all of this in your PS from an advisor, because they gave you terrible advice.

Think about this from an HR perspective. Your PS answers all of the illegal interview questions that everyone (not just in residency, or medicine, but in the business world universally) wants to ask, but can't.
Q: Are you married?
A: No
Q: Do you have kids?
A: Yes
Q: Anything in your personal life that could interfere with your work?
A: Yes

So, my guess (and it's just a guess) is that you look great on paper, AND in interviews/real life, but when it came down to the rank list, these "intangibles" that made you a great med school candidate and will make you a great physician, made you too much of a risk to the PDs. Which sucks...and I'm sorry.

 

[BruceWaynMD]

It is 150% bulls*** that you have to "hide" that part of you. It's honestly a part of your experience, history and personal knowledge (forget your book knowledge which is obviously good enough to graduate med school) that will make you a great physician.

But I hope that you didn't get advice to include all of this in your PS from an advisor, because they gave you terrible advice.

Think about this from an HR perspective. Your PS answers all of the illegal interview questions that everyone (not just in residency, or medicine, but in the business world universally) wants to ask, but can't.
Q: Are you married?
A: No
Q: Do you have kids?
A: Yes
Q: Anything in your personal life that could interfere with your work?
A: Yes

So, my guess (and it's just a guess) is that you look great on paper, AND in interviews/real life, but when it came down to the rank list, these "intangibles" that made you a great med school candidate and will make you a great physician, made you too much of a risk to the PDs. Which sucks...and I'm sorry

 

[BruceWaynMD]

I didn’t think of it that way. I just included the part about my son being the reason I wanted to do peds. My advisor read it and thought it was a good reason and others read it thought it was a good reason same reason I used in my med school PS didn’t include I was a single mom. But now I know it’s different and I have to look like I don’t have much of life outside my job. This advice is better and more clear advice than I got from anyone.

 

[BruceWaynMD]

You have not posted anything here about your clinical grades. How did you do in Peds, a Peds SubI, and the rest of your clerkships?

I think the best thing you can do is try to get feedback from the UAMS Peds program about yyour application. I would tell them that you're not going to apply to them again, and you want the honest truth about what happened.

Chances are you were just a weaker candidate, got interviews but were in the bottom 1/4 of everyone's list. Next time, you need to apply more broadly, and I'd consider looking at programs that haven't filled in the past.

If it was a problem with your interview itself, or if there was some other problem with your application, you want the UAMS program to tell you about it. You need to be very open with them -- you don't blame them, you won't be applying again so they can simply be honest with you, and you want to know if you were just less competitive than other applicants.

Clinical grades mostly B’s, 1C in surgery 1 A in neurology. Made a B in peds my internship went well IMO. But my internship was long after my ERAS application was submitted so comments weren’t included. It was because of COVID this happened.

 

[gutonc]

I didn’t think of it that way. I just included the part about my son being the reason I wanted to do peds. My advisor read it and thought it was a good reason and others read it thought it was a good reason same reason I used in my med school PS didn’t include I was a single mom. But now I know it’s different and I have to look like I don’t have much of life outside my job. This advice is better and more clear advice than I got from anyone.

I wouldn't expect you to, unless you have some experience in hiring/HR in the real world. But I would hope that your advisors might have at least been able to see the risks. But as @Apollyon likes to say about physicians in academics, "some animals have to live in the zoo because they can't survive in the wild".

 

[gutonc]

This advice is better and more clear advice than I got from anyone.

Missed this part earlier.

I don't know if it's "better", but its definitely more clear.

Thank you. And you're welcome.

Good luck going forward and do your best not to let this small setback discourage you. Roll into your internship in July with your head held high and your ears and mind open.

 

[j4pac]

I applied to 30 got 10 interviews that’s what I was told to do

I think that charting outcomes is often misunderstood. I really do think that this a topic that should be stickied because I have personally gone over charting outcomes to probably 100 or so Med students and it is difficult to grasp.

The biggest misunderstanding is that ERAS is different than NRMP (the organization that publishes Charting Outcomes). NRMP does not track statistics on the number of applications that an applicant sends out and the correlation to the number of invitations received and match rate. That’s because that could only be done through a joint venture between ERAS and NRMP...and doesn’t currently exist. As it current stands, the number of applications that one should send out is a bit nebulous and there is very little science to help applicants on their decision.

The next biggest misunderstanding is that the number of invitations received through ERAS doesn’t equal the number of contiguous ranks on NRMP. In reality...most applicants turn down a good number of invitations (some turn down over half) or they don’t rank a particular program where they interviewed. So when charting outcomes says that to have a 90% chance of matching to a particular specialty you need X contiguous ranks...that number is likely an underestimation of the number of invitations that the applicant should be receiving. I personally get nervous when an applicant to PM&R gets 10 invites when charting outcomes says that you need 10 contiguous ranks to have a 90% chance to match. It says that the applicant either under applied or is a below average applicant.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I think that charting outcomes is often misunderstood. I really do think that this a topic that should be stickied because I have personally gone over charting outcomes to probably 100 or so Med students and it is difficult to grasp.

The biggest misunderstanding is that ERAS is different than NRMP (the organization that publishes Charting Outcomes). NRMP does not track statistics on the number of applications that an applicant sends out and the correlation to the number of invitations received and match rate. That’s because that could only be done through a joint venture between ERAS and NRMP...and doesn’t currently exist. As it current stands, the number of applications that one should send out is a bit nebulous and there is very little science to help applicants on their decision.

The next biggest misunderstanding is that the number of invitations received through ERAS doesn’t equal the number of contiguous ranks on NRMP. In reality...most applicants turn down a good number of invitations (some turn down over half) or they don’t rank a particular program where they interviewed. So when charting outcomes says that to have a 90% chance of matching to a particular specialty you need X contiguous ranks...that number is likely an underestimation of the number of invitations that the applicant should be receiving. I personally get nervous when an applicant to PM&R gets 10 invites when charting outcomes says that you need 10 contiguous ranks to have a 90% chance to match. It says that the applicant either under applied or is a below average applicant.

Your point is well taken, and if the percentage is only 90% that means that there are 10 people out of 100 out there who fail to match. It sucks when that's you, and that's why people tend to be even more conservative on their ranks.

But this is peds. The match percentage over the five prior cycles for someone with a 20x/22x and 5-10 contiguous ranks was literally 99% (78/79) according to the interactive charting outcomes. @BruceWaynMD was on the high end of both the step 2 curve and contiguous ranks curve for both of those.

I truly think she did what any reasonable peds applicant would have done. I'm kind of left thinking that her interviewers judged her poorly because of single parent status. And that's horribly unfair. But at least how she portrays herself can be changed going forward.

 

[rokshana]

It’s terrible to say, but dont mention the single mom or special needs aspect of your life... those are illegal questions for a reason.
Realize that this is a game... they can say all they want, but medicine is conservative and really geared for the person that had training as the number one thing in their life.
Think of the interview as a first date... you tell all that on a first date...there is no second one.

 

[j4pac]

It’s terrible to say, but dont mention the single mom or special needs aspect of your life... those are illegal questions for a reason.
Realize that this is a game... they can say all they want, but medicine is conservative and really geared for the person that had training as the number one thing in their life.
Think of the interview as a first date... you tell all that on a first date...there is no second one.

I think that it has much less to do with all of the PDs being conservative (that’s just not reality), and much more likely that the PDs understand that a single mother with special needs child with questionable help could struggle in residency. If I was a PD, I’d have some questions/concerns. Has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with residency being extremely difficult. I made it through residency with children and little outside help...my life was significantly more difficult than my single colleagues. But I had a wife that was able to share the load and my children don’t have special needs (or significant ones for that matter). For the OP not to match there just had to be something that went really wrong in the interview. Again, she got 10 interviews so they liked her enough to bring her in. Tells me that the personal statement may not have been the primary issue. What she said in the interviews must have scared the admission committees into thinking that she might struggle.

BruceWaynMD...I wouldn’t disclose that information because PDs will undoubtably have concerns. It hurts your chances. The only way I’d personally include it is if you have a phenomenal support structure such that your share of the load is reduced substantially and a PD could rationalize that so that they remove you from the high risk category. I wish you well!

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Clinical grades mostly B’s, 1C in surgery 1 A in neurology. Made a B in peds my internship went well IMO. But my internship was long after my ERAS application was submitted so comments weren’t included. It was because of COVID this happened.

This may also explain the issue. Although I can't see your application, I can see MSPE's from your school so know what the grade distributions in the clerkships are. 90% of students got an A in Neuro. In general for most of the other clerkships, it was 50/50 A/B with a few C's and lower -- exception being Psych were it was 80/20. The C in surgery is the bottom 3%. So if you have all B's except for the A in Neuro and the C in Surgery, your performance is in the bottom quartile of your class. Your school doesn't call out quartiles directly, but it's easy to assess based upon your grades.

What I expect happened is that you got all of these interviews, did OK on them, but because of your relatively low USMLE S1 score (S2 was better but sounds like it came back after rank lists would have been finalized and hence not considered), you just ended up in the lower quartile of everyone's list. It's possible that your URM status increased your interview yield (programs looking to increase diversity) but overall performance still led to a lower ranking.

I also have difficulty interpreting "too authentic", and I encourage you to try to get more information if possible. I am interpreting it as "over sharing" -- it's OK to tell coworkers about your personal life in moderation, but (perhaps?) you cross that grey zone where people start to feel uncomfortable. That's unlikely to happen in your interviews, though, so doesn't explain why you didn't match in all of the other programs you ranked.

 

[rokshana]

I think that it has much less to do with all of the PDs being conservative (that’s just not reality), and much more likely that the PDs understand that a single mother with special needs child with questionable help could struggle in residency. If I was a PD, I’d have some questions/concerns. Has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with residency being extremely difficult. I made it through residency with children and little outside help...my life was significantly more difficult than my single colleagues. But I had a wife that was able to share the load and my children don’t have special needs (or significant ones for that matter). For the OP not to match there just had to be something that went really wrong in the interview. Again, she got 10 interviews so they liked her enough to bring her in. Tells me that the personal statement may not have been the primary issue. What she said in the interviews must have scared the admission committees into thinking that she might struggle.

BruceWaynMD...I wouldn’t disclose that information because PDs will undoubtably have concerns. It hurts your chances. The only way I’d personally include it is if you have a phenomenal support structure such that your share of the load is reduced substantially and a PD could rationalize that so that they remove you from the high risk category. I wish you well!

My statement of medicine being conservative was not a political one...medicine is slow to move and still is very male centric with the idea that men have spouses that will take care of the family and the resident can focus on their job as being a trainee...your statement here shows that to be true... if you mentioned you are married with children during your interview, it would have been seen as a positive... stable and reliable because you have a family...it’s not so for women... because it’s still seen that women are still responsible for the family and it will divide her attention from training.