-
CycleTrack and SDN are teaming up to make medical school admissions more transparent and accessible! Read the announcement to learn how we’re supporting the future of CycleTrack’s free application-tracking tools .
Socialized Dentistry U.K Style
Started by Fullosseousflap
Get help with your application
Use all the free resources available to you from SDN: articles, guides, expert advising, forums discussions, and school research.
Great link, and completely true. I'm using this story as ammo for my MPH class I'm in right now.
I think that dentistry should be socialized in the sense that basic dental health should be covered by the government and accessible to all. However, non-essential, cosmetic crap can be left to the private sector, so dental incomes would not be terribly affected.
And about this article, does it paint the true picture? I always hear Americans bashing socialized medicine in Canada with articles stating that Canadian hospitals are run down, and that people are dying in the hallways being untreated. HAHAHHAHA, I invite you to go see a hospital in Toronto to see that Toronto has world-class hospitals, with top of the line medical technology and staff that are in the top of their respected fields.
If the US stopped spending trillions of dollars on the world's number one killing machine (US army), perhaps they could use that money to better serve their own citizens by providing basic healthcare for the poor and unfortunate.
Let the flame war begin!
And about this article, does it paint the true picture? I always hear Americans bashing socialized medicine in Canada with articles stating that Canadian hospitals are run down, and that people are dying in the hallways being untreated. HAHAHHAHA, I invite you to go see a hospital in Toronto to see that Toronto has world-class hospitals, with top of the line medical technology and staff that are in the top of their respected fields.
If the US stopped spending trillions of dollars on the world's number one killing machine (US army), perhaps they could use that money to better serve their own citizens by providing basic healthcare for the poor and unfortunate.
Let the flame war begin!
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Fullosseousflap said:
In reponse to myth 1, under the Canadian health Act which is law, says that every legal resident of Canada has the right to prepaid, "reasonable" healthcare despite financial and other barriers. If an MRI is not deemed reasonable and necessary, yes it is not covered. Is this wrong?
In response to myth 2, I dont want to argue about the amount of time a Canadian physician spends with a patient compared to a US physician, cause we will just be throwing back different sources. However, regarding the inadequate supply of doctors in Canada....I live in the largest city in Canada, and I can tell you that there is a doctor on every corner. If I have a problem, I WILL BE seen by a family doctor within 20 minutes. However, this is not the case in rural areas, where access to doctors is definitely a problem in Canada.
However, last time I checked, rural access to doctors is a problem in the US, UK and basically all over the world, socialized or not.
And about the quality of healthcare in Canada, if its that bad, please explain why the life expectancy in Canada is higher than the US? (link: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/thursday.handleigh/demography/united-nations/21-lifeexpectancy.htm or if you think that may be biased, check out your own government's stats at the US Census Board website: http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idbsum.html)
Merci Beaucoup et fin d'histoire
I don't understand fullosseus' gripe with canadian/british health care systems. This is like the 5th thread he's created about the topic. And I really hate how he draws final conclusions from single cases. Pulled out 7 teeth with pliers?!! The diagnosis there was probably more like complete lunacy than a shortage of dentists. End of story. 🙄
Dr.BadVibes said:
With regards to life expectancy there are many factors.
I am not a public health doc but for one thing Canada is a much smaller country (population wise) than the United States.
Ok, let's flip the discussion.
Since you are from Canada what is good about your healthcare system as compared to the USA? And please provide evidence.
delicious said:
This was a real story about real people and it is a shame.
My gripe is with the lunacy of socialized healthcare delivery systems and the harm it does to the poor people that have to tolerate them.
Delcicious, I have worked and currently work with underserved populations and drill, fill and extract all day long. Everyone is seen and timely.
If this British woman was in California she would have those teeth extracted by ME! And a denture made by ME!
Why does her government and the NHS dentistry betray her?
Dr.BadVibes said:
The lack of gun violence?
Fullosseousflap said:
Weak argument dude. Its like if you said to a Chinese or Indian Person that the US is a much healthier country, and they reply, "well we have 1 billion more people in our country, so thats why the US is better". I just dont get the point.
Fullosseousflap said:
First of all...lemme make something clear. I did NOT once state that the Canadian system is better than the US, quality wise. US hospitals are like hotels or palaces...US hospitals are definitely better equipped, and frankly probably offer better patient satisfaction......well, that is to people that are insured or rich. Why? US hospitals are mostly FOR-PROFIT! They are run like businesses, so of course they have to pay attention on patient satisfaction cause the patient is paying big bucks to be there.
But what about FOr the people who are not insured....hmmmm, I dunno if I think their healthcare is up to what the rich/insured people get.
So to answer your qeustion, what is better about the Canadian system? We are able to provide world-class, quality healthcare to EVERYONE, regardless of age, sex, ethnicity, socioeconomic level. Of course a rich person in the US is definiltely gonna be happier in a US hospital cause they are gonna get treated like royalty, but as a "well-off" Canadian myself, I really dont care...as long as I get the healthcare that is necessary for me, and that I know that the poor family of 8 in the slums can also get that same care.....I can sleep soundly at night.
Essential healthcare is not a business? If you think it is, I personally think its quite sad. A person's health is not something to "toy" with, and its a basic human right to have access to quality healthcare, and it should be up to the governemtn to ensure that its citizenry has that access. For the richest and "best" country in the world, Im quite suprised that you have failed to adopt this philosophy.
Fullosseousflap said:
Hey man, I do have a heart. All I'm saying is that you don't know the whole situation of dentistry in britain from this one example. For instance, it seems like this woman has only one dentist in her town. Now, after failing to get in with this dentist, did she give up? Or did she try calling the other dentist in the town 15 miles east? I don't know. Also, she pulled out her teeth because she says they were "rotting." Well, if she never saw a dentist then who made this diagnosis. I'm sure her years of training as a part-time cleaner qualified her for that. Maybe she just had sensitive teeth, and that was causing her pain. I don't know. Do you? I suspect not.
I'm not trying to be cruel or mean here. I look at her picture and I think of my grandmother. I'm just saying - don't prop up some random ridiculous article and make huge conclusions from it. Find some real data to support it.
velikimajmun said:
The amount of gun murders relative to the total population is insignificant. Look at Israel, a country located in basically a war zone, yet they have a higher life expectancy than the US.
Fullosseousflap said:
to my American friends...please have sympathy for your brothers up north. We live in this socialized dictatorship of a system, where everyone is suffering. Its a nightmare!!! Hospitals are shutting down everday...doctors are scrambling everywhere...they dont even know if they are coming or going!!! Hospitals are not well-equipped...heck, a doctor last week had to perform open heart surgery with a knife and fork from the hospital cafeteria!!!! People are dying on the streets......its madness...total chaos!!
Please, oh god, please save us!
Dr.BadVibes said:
Well, I have to be off for a lengthy drive home.
However, you obviously did not read the links at my blog regarding a critique of the Canadian and British healthcare system. I'll provide it here. again. Read the whole 28 pages.
What you state in your arguments are pretty much old mispelled myths that have been refuted by evidence-based studies.
Please go and read the 28 page report and then I will be home and we can resume the discussion/argument.
Tell that to the lady who confronted Prime Minister Tony Blair.Dr.BadVibes said:
Or to the thousands who are lining up in to sign up with an NHS dentist in Britain.
Tell that to the patients who desire an MRI in your country or a knee replacement and wait months.
The list goes on......
Ok, got to hit the road....back later
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Fullosseousflap said:
You are totally right!! Canada is healthcare hell on Earth!
delicious said:Hey man, I do have a heart. All I'm saying is that you don't know the whole situation of dentistry in britain from this one example. For instance, it seems like this woman has only one dentist in her town. Now, after failing to get in with this dentist, did she give up? Or did she try calling the other dentist in the town 15 miles east? I don't know. Also, she pulled out her teeth because she says they were "rotting." Well, if she never saw a dentist then who made this diagnosis. I'm sure her years of training as a part-time cleaner qualified her for that. Maybe she just had sensitive teeth, and that was causing her pain. I don't know. Do you? I suspect not.
I'm not trying to be cruel or mean here. I look at her picture and I think of my grandmother. I'm just saying - don't prop up some random ridiculous article and make huge conclusions from it. Find some real data to support it.
The fact is I treat these kind of folks all day long.
This woman's ridiculous plight is the fact that her government run healthcare system failed her.
It is not an isolated case or problem. I and others have documented plenty and I am sure there will be many more before their government privitizes their healthcare delivery system.
Off to the races....
Dr.BadVibes said:
LOL, because the sample size is huge. Because Canadians with common-sense immigrate over the border. Because Canada has no military so there aren't any military casualties to include in the numbers.
But seriously, quality of healthcare and life expectancy don't always go hand in hand. Canadians who are in need of immediate healthcare cross the border to receive it.
In the recent elections, the one thing that all platforms could agree on was that the Canadian healthcare system was severely limited and in need of a complete revamping.
Dr.BadVibes said:
It's actually pretty close, unless you have merely a common cold or an ear infection.
For everything else you'd better visit Dr. USA.
delicious said:
That's the point! The socialized system has NOT improved access to care. Healthcare is represented by a trifecta: quality, cost, and access. Socialism may improve cost, but in doing so it impedes quality and does nothing to bolster access.
ItsGavinC said:
I like how you selectively cropped off my post there Gavin. In England, 15 miles up a street might be another "town," but where I'm from, 15 miles is nothin to travel to get to a doctor or dentist.
Dude, some of your comments on this thread are downright offensive.
delicious said:
I agree, 15 miles is nothing to travel for you or I, but as you said, we don't have all the facts.
Access is access. If the lady wasn't able to travel the 15 miles, then she didn't have access. And you're right in that this single article doesn't reflect accurately on the overall state of UK healthcare--but it does illuminate an instance with a huge problem. NO healthcare system is 100% perfect.
Which comments are "downright offensive" to you? Once again I'm sure you're implying that everybody but I is free to have an opinion and post it.
Dr.BadVibes said:
...Except for the fact that the United States is already looking at a stark shortage of dentists, and what you're suggesting is basically an en masse conversion of private-sector dental offices into Medicaid mills. With cosmetic services remaining in the private sector, and government reimbursement dismally unlikely to compare to FFS work, why would anyone want to take the financial hit to see the government-subsidized patients while there are more FFS & privately insured patients than they can point a handpiece at?
What you're suggesting isn't a bad idea in theory, but it falls victim to the tragedy of the commons. The imbalance between supply & demand in dental care is going to keep it grossly impractical for several years.
The title of "world's #1 killing machine" could be given to any of several historical figures & groups, but the United States military doesn't even come close to making the list. A major fraction of those trillions of dollars goes towards developing & producing weapons that are extravagantly more expensive than they need to be, in the name of minimizing unnecessary destruction & bloodshed.
Show me a military organization anywhere in history that has shown anything even dimly resembling the solicitous concern toward preserving civilian life & restricting collateral damage as the modern American armed forces. When an American MP company harass & humiliate a handful of Iraqi prisoners of war, or accidentally kill a civilian during combat, it's an international media outrage; but apparently when other countries deliberately torture & kill innocents by the millions, it's no big deal. What you think of America, its leaders, & its foreign policy are your own opinion, but if you want to call America's military something like "the world's #1 killing machine," you're buying one hell of a burden of proof for yourself. Let's see what you've got.
aphistis said:
I agree. Many CHOOSE to ignore that America is the #1 provider of economic support for countries in need. Sometimes support comes in the form of monies, sometimes in the form of food, sometimes in the form of aid. And sometimes, heaven forbid, it comes in the form of an military protecting a country so that it's women aren't raped, children are starved, and men aren't trampled as they protect their borders.
Back on the original note, one of the real problems I've seen with healthcare here in Arizona is that every freakin' illegal immigrant thinks they ought to receive healthcare here and have us carry the burden of the bill. ERs can't handle the crowds and taxpayers are sick of paying the bill.
In my mind one of the things that makes it difficult to directly compare our healthcare system with the UKs, or Canadas, is that neither of those countries are saddled with a similar illegal immigrant problem.
L
LSR1979
aphistis said:
Well said, with facts and stasticics to boot. 👍 Funny how the Canucks just shout random arrogant OPINIONS with no factual data to back it up. Also funny how THE MAJORITY ATTEND US DENTAL SCHOOLS AND THEN STAY SOUTH TO PRACTICE!!!
ItsGavinC said:
No gavin, I don't think people CHOOSE to ignore that America is the #1 provider of economic support. I think it's more that most people just understand that the economic support the US provides is mostly self-serving. Yes, Israel is the #1 recipient of US foreign aid despite being one of the least populous countries on earth (only 6 mil people) & also despite being one of the wealthiest. A full 1/3 of US Foreign Aid goes to Isreal. This is seven times more money than the US gives to all of sub-Saharan Africa. But does israel really need it? No. US aid amounts to less than 2% of Israel's GDP. What you call "economic support" , most level-headed people would call "political bull****."
delicious said:
Does that somehow "corrupt" the aid? If you think there is a single group or entity in the world that isn't self-serving, then we have completely different viewpoints of the world. That's fine too.
Not at all. I was referencing the vast amount of monies the US pours into countries.
I highly doubt that, but any stats you have would be appreciated.
Whoa! You must've been sitting on that post for a while. I made that edit like ten minutes ago about israel.
If anyone's intested in learning more about this, just google: israel "foreign aid"
You might have to sift through to finally get a good site, but it's there. Second hit is pretty good. Don't get me wrong, I love this country. It's just that good changes could be made.
yes. especially when you say "countries in need"ItsGavinC said:
If anyone's intested in learning more about this, just google: israel "foreign aid"
You might have to sift through to finally get a good site, but it's there. Second hit is pretty good. Don't get me wrong, I love this country. It's just that good changes could be made.
delicious said:Don't get me wrong, I love this country. It's just that good changes could be made.
I'm in 100% agreeance with that! 🙂
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
delicious said:Whoa! You must've been sitting on that post for a while. I made that edit like ten minutes ago about israel.
yes. especially when you say "countries in need"
If anyone's intested in learning more about this, just google:
isreal "foreign aid"
You might have to sift through to finally get a good site, but it's there. Don't get me wrong, I love this country. It's just that good changes could be made.
Would you rather the US send aid to north korea or iran? Israel is the only democracy in the middle east and a major ally to the US. The fact that Israels neighbors want to "drive them into the Sea" should cause some alarm to its allies. Almost all aid to Israel is through military support so that it can defend itself against attack by Syria, Iran, Libya, Lebanese Hizbullah...at least they don't have to worry about Iraqi launching scud missiles anymore.
nothen2do said:
Yes, I understand your argument. I think that might be what gavin was getting at as well. The US should be able to help out its friends.
I'm just trying to say that: the huge amount of foreign aid the US shells out isn't necessarily a good judge of how generous the US is towards all of the world. Because there's two sides to every story. For every isreali that says they're "being driven into the sea" , you can have 5 palestinians that say they've been violently forced off their land and are "being driven into the desert." I consider myself pretty moderate - and I can see both sides of the argument. For every case of suicide bombing in Tel Aviv, you can come up with a reciprocal example of israeli brutality. Look at the massacre at jenin.
I just feel that it's very important to correctly use information. This applies to the original topic of this thread, and to this foreign aid issue.
delicious said:
Ok, I am back.
Did you do your reading? I see you all have been discussing matters pretty well.
And remember this thread was regarding the U.K NHS.... as you all know Canada's dental sytem is mostly private. Same with Australia.
But, there medical delivery systems are another matter and boy are there some horror stores.
Sociaized healthcare delivery systems are a FAILURE! The evidence is conclusive!
Dr.BadVibes said:
If the U.S. has such a lousy system, perhaps you should hike your ass back to Canada. Bitch.
delicious said:
I'll make one more non-dental point (since this is a dental forum) concerning your above statement. Please don't compare a suicide bombing, where a palestinian bomber actually tries to kill men, women, children on busses, in restaurants and coffee shops...to an incident where Israeli troops were trying to arrest and prevent these types of cold-blodded murderers. I know that there have been many casualties on the palestinian side that were not adult men fighters, but what you don't see is that palestinian chlidren are encouraged to protest with rocks, while others in their group are armed with guns and grenades. The Israeli soldiers try to limit civilian casualties, while the palestinian suicide bombers try to inflict as much carnage as possible. Sorry, but had to get that off my chest
I had a patient in dental school (USA) do this to her last remaining 6 mandibular anteriors. She came in because she couldn't get the bleeding to stop. I packed her with gauze and took an xray to make sure she didn't leave any root tips. Then the faculty got mad because I asked if I could get partial credit for the extractions.Fullosseousflap said:
Fullosseousflap said:
Thanks for the link.
Our "Minuteman Project" has just begun today, so we'll see where that goes. It's a situation that could spiral out of control quickly: http://www.azdailysun.com/non_sec/nav_includes/story.cfm?storyID=105966
Fullosseousflap said:
Dentistry in Australia is private. That is correct.
Medicine in Australia is both. We have both a public and private systems unlike Canada and the UK where you are not given the choice. 👍
Dr.BadVibes said:
Like it should be.
Dr.BadVibes said:
Duh, why else is it good to be a doctor, because the patients pay you. (aka...FOR PROFIT)
Dr.BadVibes said:
Again, as it should be. If they wanted the private hospitals they could get a job and get health insurance. Almost all full time employers offer it now. Unfortunately many choose not to have part of their check deducted for it so they can get an extra 200 bucks a month to spend on the 20 packs of cigarretes they smoke every month.
Dr.BadVibes said:
nothing?
Dr.BadVibes said:
Really, you don't plan on making any money when your done with school? You havent once entertained the thought of staying in the USA to have a much more comfortable life when your done with school?
Dr.BadVibes said:
really? I was raised with the values that you earn what you get in life. In the US there is pleny of access to healthcare. The problem is the access to FREE healthcare.
Dr.BadVibes said:
Its because were smarter than everyone else.
toofache32 said:
Did you get partial credit or credit for the dentures? LOL....
nothen2do said:
So, misguided. I am a catholic German-Irish American yet I feel the Palestinians are justified in what they do. If you want Palastinians to limit the casualties then the US should arm them with F-15's, apache helicopters, laser guided missle systems, and tanks just as it has done Isreal. Lets have a fair fight. The only way Palestine can instigate a dialogue btwn itself and the rest of the world is through extreme acts. No suicide bombings would result in an oppressed people, even more dominated and abused by Israel.
J2AZ said:
I didn't want to stir up trouble before so i didn't say anything, but i fully agree. Organized suicide bombing attacks are in general a pretty useless military tactic. So why are they done? Because the palestinians have been beaten so far into the ground, that there's really no option left. It's an act of extreme desperation, and I can sorta understand it. Israel vs. Palestine is like the USA vs. the Bahamas. It's absolutely futile. Palestine doesn't stand a chance against wealthy isreal, especially when it's being financially and militarily supported by the US. (by the way, the US would never give the state-of-the-art weapons it provides to isreal to any other country) In this situation, normal rules of warfare just don't apply. nothen2do, it's easy for us to sit here and judge palestinian suicide bombers, but the truth is that you and I will never really know what it feels like to have absolutely nothing.
Dr.BadVibes said:
It was a joke
Lighten up cochise
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
J2AZ said:
Let me tell you that you don't know what you are talking about, considering I have been there and expereienced it. I can condone an armed fight against the military, but that is not what the suicide bombers do. As I said before, they target women and children on busses and in pizza parlors to kill as many as possible. Their name comes from what they are intent on doing, terrorizing people. Do you condone the attacks of 9/11? It seems like it. Why not just give osama bin laden nuclear bombs so he is on par with the American military and his fight can be fair. There is never an excuse for killing innocent lives, especially when you are intent on doing so. Compare the percent of casualties of non-fighters to total casualties on both sides, and youll see that 95% of Israeli casualties caused by palestinian attacks is non-soldiers, ie civilian men, women, children.
toofache32 said:
That's too funny! Too bad that you didn't find any root tips because that would qualify as an surgical extraction! Back to the story about the old lady "I had to pull out seven of my own teeth, Mr Blair" SO WHAT? I would sympathize with her if it was one or two teeth, but seven? ****, she should have brush twice a day, take better care of her teeth. It's her own damn fault to begin with; what's she b!tching about?! Was it really about the lack of dental care?
Most of the patients in dental schools do not have to pay for dental care but yet they seem to fail to show up for scheduled appointments. It can be a pain to get them to come in. That's socialized dentistry in U.S. for you! Couldn't that lady seek care at a U.K dental school?
From the story: "Mrs Holsworth told the Prime Minister that in her home town of Scarborough three dentists had been brought in from overseas - one "went home with a criminal record. The second one wasn't even qualified and the third made that many mistakes, they sacked him."
Oh ****, now it's the foreigners! They're either a criminal or not qualified to be a dentist. Maybe they bought their degrees at Kmart!
Socialized vs Privatized health cares. There're flaws in each system. Neither one is perfect. For privatized health care, you're never lack of access to healthcare, but if you can't afford to pay the co-pay, you're most likely screwed. For socialized healthcare, it's the waiting time or "access to healthcare" problem, but what can one expect? after all, it's free!
Like I've said before, you're getting f-ed one way or another 😀
nothen2do said:
I agree. Suicide bombers are just a bunch of nuts, dumb f-ers, cowards! They're fighting a losing battle. How can they win a war killing INNOCENT people? Blowing up buses, public places 😕 If they think that they can win by terrorizing the innocents then they're wrong! How about blowing up military bases for a change! Don't talk about fighting a "fair war" either. The point of fighting is to win, not to fight fair!
Dr.BadVibes said:
If Canada is so self-sufficient what are you doing here? Why didn't you go to Vancouver's dental school. Many foreign trained professionals have made great contributions here but they are much better guests than you.
