Some Pre-Meds Missing the Point?

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texahn

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Would anyone agree with me on the fact that some (perhaps most) tend to lose perspective of their roles in this system we refer to as the medical field?

Point 1. Because of the structure of the medical school admission process, pre-meds are led to think that there are certain things that they must do to gain admission.

Point 2. It may become easy to think of volunteering as a necessity for acceptance into medical school rather than an opportunity to experience the role of the pre-med student in the service for others. Suddenly, the # of hours might matter more than what the student may have felt or thought about their volunteering experience.

Point 3. Research may also become one of those things that someone who wants to get into a "good" medical school should do, instead of viewing their research opportunity as a small portion of humanity's search for better understanding of the truth.


Anyone?
 
What is your point? People want to become doctors so they are willing to do what it takes to get there. People will take what they want from their experiences. Let them worry about that.
 
msb1190 said:
What is your point? People want to become doctors so they are willing to do what it takes to get there. People will take what they want from their experiences. Let them worry about that.
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I think his pt is that it is unfortunate that some ppl view all these things as a checklist at gaining admission to a medical school.
 
texahn said:
Would anyone agree with me on the fact that some (perhaps most) tend to lose perspective of their roles in this system we refer to as the medical field?

Point 1. Because of the structure of the medical school admission process, pre-meds are led to think that there are certain things that they must do to gain admission.

Point 2. It may become easy to think of volunteering as a necessity for acceptance into medical school rather than an opportunity to experience the role of the pre-med student in the service for others. Suddenly, the # of hours might matter more than what the student may have felt or thought about their volunteering experience.

Point 3. Research may also become one of those things that someone who wants to get into a "good" medical school should do, instead of viewing their research opportunity as a small portion of humanity's search for better understanding of the truth.


Anyone?
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duh. 😕

sorry, but i remember thinking this stuff about volunteering, leadership, etc. while i was 16-17 and applying to college. this is a hypercompetitive country/world; of course things begin to be about the numbers and not the experience. and to think that it could really ever be only about the experience and not the hours, etc. is, in my opinion, sort of naive. i think the healthiest, happiest, most mature pre-meds can acknowledge that they have some motivation to do what they do for both reasons-- looking good and personal fulfillment. (i think anyone who claims it's 100% the latter is kidding themselves. sure, for some it's a higher percentage than others, but never 100%.)
 
Of course, but I don't really blame the pre-meds...It's just the way the admissions system works. At least there's some semblance of merit involved. Its better than backdoor connections or family wealth as the most distinguishing factor like several other types of grad schools.
 
Agreed that way too often we continue in activites that are meaningless to us because we're told they are essential to demonstrating our fitness to be given an acceptance to med school. Since adcomms assess us via various formulae, be are obliged to fulfill their expectations to achieve our goals. Happily some of those activies turn out to be important to us, so they aren't all a dead loss.
 
I think it's unfortunate that some of us restrict ourselves to the bare necessities instead of being creative with our abilities.
 
ChubbyChaser said:
I think his pt is that it is unfortunate that some ppl view all these things as a checklist at gaining admission to a medical school.
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Obviously, I understand. In reality, for most pre-meds, it is exactly a checklist. If it were not required or suggested for medical school admissions a vast majority of pre-meds would be doing other things.
 
Very much agreed...

but i think its just how the how medical school admission process has evoloved.

its too bad really.
 
gujuDoc said:
I agree but wouldn't you agree that to some degree the adcoms are at fault for this because they push this idea on applicants that if you don't do these things your app is weak?
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I do agree...im just saying its unfortunate.
 
texahn said:
:diebanana: words
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Uh, agreed. So let me guess, you would have people do inspiring and unique things that help humanity . . . like, travel to foreign nations and save the underserved, while resea-I mean, investigating--cures and treatments for a wide variety of diseases. And then to choose between these extraordinary applicants, perhaps we should conduct interviews, and maybe standardize to a small degree the interview process . . . so no one gets confused. And perhaps, as the number of applicants grows into the hundreds of thousands, we should consider an ancient Chinese idea of standardized examinations, so to be sure those culled from the extraordinary had a baseline of useful knowledge--

--oh wait.

Sorry, I've been inside all day studying for boards. There isn't anyway to have a system that does not, to some degree, become a "systemized" process, not when we're talking on the scale of medical school. Those that lose their perspective will lead less fulfilled lives, on some meta level, than those who do not. Join AAMC and work on it, if you feel jaded.
 
msb1190 said:
If it were not required or suggested for medical school admissions a vast majority of pre-meds would be doing other things.
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Like meaningful computer games that allow us to display our leadership.
 
Divine Furor said:
You mean meaningful X-Box playing, meaningful temping with our useless college degrees, meaningful playing in our all-guitar band at a local bar, meaningful mooching off mom n dad.
Click to expand...


How negative
 
While your points have some merit, I think you are over-looking the reality of medical school admissions.

Point 1. There are unsung requirements to medical school admissions whether you like it or not. The only people who can get away without this sort of thing are very non-traditional applicants. These are usually the career changers and/or those at later stages of life. For example, do you really think that an applicant without any volunteer experience is going to look competitive against 50 others with substantial volunteering (all else equal)? Probably not. In that sense, you HAVE to volunteer simply because everybody else has done this. You could use the "uniqueness" argument and say that this person stands out (I say this person stands out in a bad way) or perhaps realized they don't like volunteering (lol that will fly well with adcoms).

Point 2. I knew how I felt about my volunteering experience 10 hours in. I hated all parts of it except the parts where I had patient contact. The only thing that kept me going back was knowing that my competition all had 200+ hour experiences. Which looks better to you? 10 hours or 200 hours? And don't BS me about "you should do it because you love it." Very very very few volunteer positions give you any kind of real medical experience. If you want to be competitive in this game you have to play the game.

Point 3. Same thing as above. I research.. I published.. I hated it. It sucked at my soul every waking hour, but I did it because I knew that it would look good for medical school. Now that I have read your entire post it reeks of idealism. I guess that could be construed as good but let me tell you man, you will get walked all over in medicine (according to what p.bear tells us).

The bottomline is basically what msb1190 said (a few posts above). If you want it, you will do what it takes to get there. Through hell and high water you will walk, if you want it that bad.
 
texahn said:
How negative
Click to expand...

It might seem negative, but it is realer than you know. Talk to some recent college grads that are done with school for now or forever. They aren't doing a damn thing unless they are a nurse or an engineer... even still, jobs are few and far between.
 
I agree wholeheartedly. I have actually thought about this a lot recently because 95% of the experiences I have had in the last 4 years would not have occurred had I not been pre-med. I think the whole process was humbling and I have matured far greater over the past year or so with applying, interviewing and such, than I had in the previous 3. What I found was initially, I was doing most of the volunteering because I knew it would look good on my application, but then I began to enjoy it. So while I agree that this sort of thing becomes very much like a checklist (if it is not already) in my case it had really benefitted me and I really enjoyed most of my experiences.
 
I have heard many medical student lament how they thought medical school would require them to use intense creativity to solve problems.... I guess medical school mostly requires you to throw up a bunch of information instead. Could be wrong, I am not there yet.

I get what you're saying but if they tell you it helps to volunteer, it makes sense to volunteer if you like it or not...
 
You would be both right and wrong. Intense creativity is in the eye of the beholder. Not everyone is creatively musical or artistic--there is "art" in medicine, as there is drudgery. In the beginning, there is more drudgery. But you don't have to be dispassionate, you don't have to fear dispassion, and you also don't have to believe the _negative_ of medical school applications, which is what this OP seems to think is inevitable.
 
The reason I made this thread was because I did all of it. I played the game.
Research, volunteering, clinical work, shadowing, leadership - hours and hours.

I'm reflecting upon what I did and why I did them before I apply for medical school.

I totally understand doing whatever it takes to become a doctor. I understand many people do not lose sight of their reason to become a doctor. People have seen a pattern in the kinds of people that get accepted and the kinds of things that they have done and it is human nature to do similar things, I get it. My point is that maybe we should take a moment to think about things like this once in a while, no matter how idealistic or unreachable it may be.
 
With those things you mentioned in particular, I think it is one of those things that one may view as a necessarily evil at first, and then come back later in life to have appreciated that experience.

The idealogical value is not destroyed because you didn't fully appreciate it at the time.
 
BluntSurgeon said:
Point 2. I knew how I felt about my volunteering experience 10 hours in. I hated all parts of it except the parts where I had patient contact. The only thing that kept me going back was knowing that my competition all had 200+ hour experiences. Which looks better to you? 10 hours or 200 hours? And don't BS me about "you should do it because you love it." Very very very few volunteer positions give you any kind of real medical experience. If you want to be competitive in this game you have to play the game.

Point 3. Same thing as above. I research.. I published.. I hated it. It sucked at my soul every waking hour, but I did it because I knew that it would look good for medical school. Now that I have read your entire post it reeks of idealism. I guess that could be construed as good but let me tell you man, you will get walked all over in medicine (according to what p.bear tells us).

The bottomline is basically what msb1190 said (a few posts above). If you want it, you will do what it takes to get there. Through hell and high water you will walk, if you want it that bad.
Click to expand...

There are self-reported statistics on how many in a medical school class volunteer and how many do research. Volunteering is much lower, on average, than the research. There are a significant number of people who don't do one or the other, though I can't imagine many people not doing either...

But volunteering doesn't necessarily mean volunteering in a hospital. I mean, very few volunteer positions in hospitals will give you any real clinical experience. If you want the clinical experience without volunteering in a hospital, then go shadow a doctor or find a position in the hospital that gives you patient contact. As others have said, get your volunteering in by working in a soup kitchen or doing Big Brother, Big Sister.
 
Hopefully that is the case that whatever we do now will have done good things no matter how trivial they may seem. Thanks for that.
 
Must get tiring, dancing up there on your soapbox like that.
 
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Idealism is nice, but the competition isn't going to let up any.
 
I definitely agree with the OP to some extent, however to say that you are doing research, high GPA, and volunteering because it brings you total bliss and fills your insides with pure joy is just idealism....

Medical schools make it ultra competitive, so pre-meds must respond accordingly. This brings out some good and some bad out of people:

Bad: Ultra cut throat pre-meds that complete the "checklist" simply to be competitive (understandable).

Good: It filters out all those people who are unwilling to jump through the loops in order to get into medical school. The truth is...those competitive pre-meds are the ones that are willing to put in the hard work. A lesson that I have learned from this entire process is that if you are unable to put in EXTRA EXTRA hard work..you were not meant to become a doctor. It is true that I started volunteering and research simply to fulfill a requirement. However, I have found both to be incredibly rewarding and meaningful!! If I never forced myself to complete the "checklist" I would have never experienced these two wonderful things.

To the OP, do not think that I am disagreeing with you because I certainly am not. However, my point is that good things can come out of competition. Although I have never worked this hard my entire life, I also have NEVER been as happy. Getting that fantastic letter grade of A on your transcript next to the course Organic Chemistry is truly one of the most rewarding things I have ever done!
 
texahn said:
Would anyone agree with me on the fact that some (perhaps most) tend to lose perspective of their roles in this system we refer to as the medical field?

Point 1. Because of the structure of the medical school admission process, pre-meds are led to think that there are certain things that they must do to gain admission.

Point 2. It may become easy to think of volunteering as a necessity for acceptance into medical school rather than an opportunity to experience the role of the pre-med student in the service for others. Suddenly, the # of hours might matter more than what the student may have felt or thought about their volunteering experience.

Point 3. Research may also become one of those things that someone who wants to get into a "good" medical school should do, instead of viewing their research opportunity as a small portion of humanity's search for better understanding of the truth.


Anyone?
Click to expand...

100% disagree. Some things are necessary, regardless of if you want to believe it or not. It's almost like saying having a high GPA is not a necessity. Sure, nothing in life is set dead by a formula. Your chances just simply become lower.
 
You know what really sucks. Studying for Step One, 11 hours per day, 7 days per week, for 5 weeks nonstop. Oh well, only 3 more weeks to go. Fortunately, I am not going crazy. Am I helping humanity and my future patients, I doubt it, but, yeah, I am jumping through this crazy hoop. Am I just some rat that was put in a maze, I am beginning to feel like one.
 
texahn said:
I think it's unfortunate that some of us restrict ourselves to the bare necessities instead of being creative with our abilities.
Click to expand...

Most types of volunteering consists of stacking towels. Only the people with "connections" (or who are lucky) can bypass hospital HIPAA regulations and actually be involved with something meaningful. How can you be creative with stacking towels?

We are doing the bare necessities because the process has become ridiculous. Only the extremely intelligent students are able to fulfil these requirements while still maintaining the resemblance of a social life.

I think it's unfortunate that everyone keeps blaming the premeds for everything. The admissions process is a sham, a ripoff -- it's a disgrace to the medical profession. We are forced to cooperate with this broken system, because we have no other alternative. It's not like we can object.
 
phospho said:
Most types of volunteering consists of stacking towels. Only the people with "connections" (or who are lucky) can bypass hospital HIPAA regulations and actually be involved with something meaningful. How can you be creative with stacking towels?

We are doing the bare necessities because the process has become ridiculous. Only the extremely intelligent students are able to fulfil these requirements while still maintaining the resemblance of a social life.

I think it's unfortunate that everyone keeps blaming the premeds for everything. The admissions process is a sham, a ripoff -- it's a disgrace to the medical profession. We are forced to cooperate with this broken system, because we have no other alternative. It's not like we can object.
Click to expand...

Lead the Revolution after your second year of med school. Boycott Step One. Tell the Man that you are not going to take it anymore, and refuse to take the TEST. Do not define yourself by the TEST. Rise up, premed Proletariat, and cast off your chains. BE FREE. Do not let med schools define you. You should define med school. You are the future of the medical profession. Quit being little lab rats. COURAGE!
 
no pre-med is missing the point... they only know how the system works - thus it attracts the most intelligent of the students..

u say volunteerism and research and so on.. are just for a student to learn more about the field - to feel the stuff we do there...

I say u're right, but even if u dont "feel" it u must do it to gain admission...

its like GPA or MCAT.... med schools don't say they require atleast a 3.0/27 but if u apply with those scores or lower than those scores.. u're probably not gonna get in..

just like that is volunteer hours and stuff.. they say its recommended or optional... but they mean - do it or u wont get in..
 
Dr. Kirch (President of the AAMC) gave a lecture to about 30 students at my school about this exact topic. If you have an opportunity to listen to him, I highly suggest doing so.
 
searun said:
Lead the Revolution after your second year of med school. Boycott Step One. Tell the Man that you are not going to take it anymore, and refuse to take the TEST. Do not define yourself by the TEST. Rise up, premed Proletariat, and cast off your chains. BE FREE. Do not let med schools define you. You should define med school. You are the future of the medical profession. Quit being little lab rats. COURAGE!
Click to expand...

haha😀
 
i agree
2.gif
 
um honestly.. Who cares.. You're telling me some one majoring in English should have as much intrest in researching the genetics of rats as a bio major?

If you have a problem with it then don't do it.
 
searun said:
Lead the Revolution after your second year of med school. Boycott Step One. Tell the Man that you are not going to take it anymore, and refuse to take the TEST. Do not define yourself by the TEST. Rise up, premed Proletariat, and cast off your chains. BE FREE. Do not let med schools define you. You should define med school. You are the future of the medical profession. Quit being little lab rats. COURAGE!
Click to expand...

LMAO. [In the same damn rut] . . . if they do manage to overthrow Step 1 I will be so damn jealous though.
 
Indeed, it is somewhat unfortunate that volunteering, research, and other activities are considered "requirements" for a good application rather than valuable experience. But let's face it, there are no other alternatives. If you look at the app process in the US compared to other countries, it's actually a lot better here. In other countries, the application often consists of an entrance exam, and that's it. At least here, you are somewhat pushed towards exploring different areas. And who knows, you might like your experience well enough so that you go back and do it later on.

In any case, I find the whole concept of "volunteering" a bit of a sham. If you were truly volunteering for something, you wouldn't put it down on an application in order to get some advantage (such as entrance into college or med school).
 
reddyjs said:
In any case, I find the whole concept of "volunteering" a bit of a sham. If you were truly volunteering for something, you wouldn't put it down on an application in order to get some advantage (such as entrance into college or med school).
Click to expand...

Uh . . . why not? The definition of volunteering means giving of your time of your own free will without accepting financial reward . . . not doing it in secret. No one is holding a gun to applicant's head, and volunteering, frankly, isn't required. I didn't volunteer for anything, worked a solid career for pay, and still got into medical school.
 
gujuDoc said:
You make a real important point that it is about not accepting financial reward not, not accepting any reward. Otherwise why would there be volunteer appreciation awards. Why would people volunteer for purposes of applications to the point that vol. organizations know students are doing this for school purposes esp. high schoolers these days and premeds these days. But people are confusing doing something for no financial reward with doing something for the sake of altruism. I'm not sure that true pure altruism exists.
Click to expand...

Very scarce. It used to exists a lot more. But, something remarkable happened during the conception of the 21st century. Go figure.

It is hard to find it in nations or regions in which people are brainwashed by unregulated free market/capitalism, the idea of putting yourself first even if it is at the expense of others. I mean look at the criticism against Obama, and he is not even a purely altruistic person. Still he gets treated like one with bashing and thrashing.
 
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neil100 said:
Very scarce. It used to exists a lot more. But, something remarkable happened during the conception of the 21st century. Go figure.

It is hard to find it in nations or regions in which people are brainwashed by unregulated free market/capitalism, the idea of putting yourself first even if it is at the expense of others. I mean look at the criticism against Obama, and he is not even a purely altruistic person. Still he gets treated like one with bashing and thrashing.
Click to expand...
From a idealistic perspective, why is a financial reward worse than, say, an emotional reward? From this perspective, one might argue there is no 'true pure altruism'.
 
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