Some states make most traffic tickets criminal offenses!

[Gonio5]

SD has a confidential advice forum that has a question that is answered then locked. It reads "Hi! I'm applying this cycle and have found out that in some states, every traffic violation is a criminal misdemeanor. Mine was for "Following too closely". I was wondering if this would have a serious impact on my application? I hate having to check the "Misdemeanor" box for something like this, but obviously will be doing so.>

This is very alarming. Some hospitals or residencies could make up a reason to kick you out, citing "criminal record". You could sue to try to get back but find that the hospital attorney can effectively fight hard and ban you from re-entering.

I play it safe. I do not want a criminal record. I want to know what states these are. If I rent a car in those states, I would be very cautious. My cursory internet research points to Texas as being one of those states. The medical board in California requires reporting of all traffic tickets that have a fine of $300 or more. Speeding 16 mph or more results in a fine of over $300 in many jurisdictions. Canada routinely bans entry to Americans with drunk driving arrests until the case is dismissed. If convicted, they are banned for life unless they petition after 10 years, an expensive task that may not be successful.

Are you aware of other states which make some minor traffic violations criminal offenses?

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[Gonio5]

The Drive to Jail: Why States Should Decriminalize Minor Traffic Offenses and Stop Using Bench Warrants to Enforce Traffic Laws - Fines and Fees Justice Center

Minor traffic offenses should not be considered crimes. Yet, in 17 states, these minor violations are considered misdemeanors that could lead to immediate arrest and jail time for things like ...

finesandfeesjusticecenter.org

Quote:
Minor traffic offenses should not be considered crimes. Yet, in 17 states, these minor violations are considered misdemeanors that could lead to immediate arrest and jail time for things like speeding, a cracked windshield, or driving with an expired registration.

That website has a map with those states. Legal topics are often very fact specific so each of those states probably have very different facts. With that disclaimer, the map shows the following states:
Northeast: NJ,
West Coast: AK,
Rocky Mountains and Midwest: MT, WY, SD, IA, MO
South: WV, entire South from NC, TN, OK, NM except not LA and FL. Also not KY.

 

[Smurfette]

Note those states *could* result in immediate arrest and jail time. It doesn't mean that's a guarantee. These things are up to the officer.
Chill out and drive appropriately. If you are super worried about this, it may be a sign you are driving way too aggressively.

1. most licensing boards and hospitals exclude minor traffic offenses. No one cares about your speedometer violation, straight up speeding ticket or following too close ticket. Yes, really. No one cares about this type of thing.
2. Background checks will show your tickets and if anything sounds concerning, you'll be asked to provide information.
3. Plain old traffic related offenses don't raise an eyebrow. Reckless driving, anything involving being impaired, or offenses with injury to another person/property are going to require explanation.
4. My state is not listed above but if you are caught speeding more than 20 above the limit, the officer has the option of ticketing you or arresting you. Generally getting arrested in this scenario means you were being reckless/weaving in and out of traffic/being aggressive and not just going fast.

 

[Gonio5]

Note those states *could* result in immediate arrest and jail time. It doesn't mean that's a guarantee. These things are up to the officer.

The quote suggests some confusion over this thread. This thread is NOT about arrest or jail time. It's about a simple traffic ticket being considered a criminal offense in about 17 states.

In some states, traffic violations are considered criminal offenses, even if the police office hands you a paper ticket and lets you continue driving to your destination. The fact that the state considers it a criminal offense might mean that you have to fight it tooth and nail, as well as be extra cautious when driving in such states.

What would really be bad is if you have to answer the following question in a hospital application...

Have you ever been charged with a criminal violation (felony or misdemeanor) resulting in either a plea bargain, conviction on original or lesser charge, or payment of a fine, suspended sentence, community service, or other obligation?

Notice that there is no mention of minor traffic violation being exempt.

What this means is that in 17 states, getting something as simple as a minor traffic violation is a criminal offense and can become a high stakes battle. How about not completely stopping at a deserted intersection with a stop sign, but rolling to almost a complete stop then going?

 

[Smurfette]

The quote suggests some confusion over this thread.

In some states, traffic violations are considered criminal offenses, even if the police office hands you a paper ticket and lets you continue driving to your destination. The fact that the state considers it a criminal offense might mean that you have to fight it tooth and nail, as well as be extra cautious when driving in such states.

What would really be bad is if you have to answer the following question in a hospital application...

Have you ever been charged with a criminal violation (felony or misdemeanor) resulting in either a plea bargain, conviction on original or lesser charge, or payment of a fine, suspended sentence, community service, or other obligation?

Notice that there is no mention of minor traffic violation being exempt.

What this means is that in 17 states, getting something as simple as a minor traffic violation is a criminal offense and can become a high stakes battle. How about not completely stopping at a deserted intersection with a stop sign, but rolling to almost a complete stop then going?

I'm not confused over the thread. I know exactly what happens on credentials committees and how we review applications and renewals because I'm involved in that process.

You check the appropriate box on your apps. Many times I have seen on background checks and apps to exclude traffic offenses. But it still doesn't matter. Just disclose everything it asks for, including traffic stuff unless clearly stated not to. People review the apps. If there is a charge no one cares about, you are fine. If they are concerned, they will get back to you and ask for more info. Traffic tickets are really common and I assure you there are doctors in all those states who have gotten various traffic tickets and are working and have no issues. No one is going to prevent you from getting a medical license/getting hospital privileges because you ran a stop sign. Or got caught speeding. Stop worrying about this. And ideally, don't break any traffic laws to make this a source of future stress for you.

 

[Gonio5]

I have heard of doctors having trouble because hospitals looking for excuses to cause trouble. Or state related physician health programs trying to make money. While these problems don't happen to every doctor, it is a source of potential problems.

As far as "ideally, don't break any traffic laws to make this a source of future stress...", every single driver that I know breaks traffic laws, even the most careful driver. I'm not talking about reckless drivers, but ordinary drivers who habitually drive at normal speeds.

My take on the matter is to drive safely but, if unlucky and you get a ticket in one of those 17 states, fight tooth and nail against the ticket, even hiring a lawyer to do so. It's sad to say that most people don't need to hire lawyers but we doctors might need to because of the potential high stakes if a simple traffic violation is classified as a criminal offense.

 

[GoSpursGo]

As I said in that thread, and as said by @Smurfette, this is not worth worrying about. Also, this is not new and has been discussed extensively on SDN. Some states have chosen to criminalize traffic violations for many years, and with the exception of cases where the violation is more extreme, it doesn’t matter for anything.

There is a common misconception among neurotic pre-meds and medical students that if you “check the box” for an IA or a misdemeanor that you’ll get screened out. This just isn’t true. People know that there are countless silly reasons why someone may have to check this box, including for a petty traffic violation in some states and it would be detrimental to their program to exclude otherwise strong applicants over something that we all recognize doesn’t matter. All that “checking the box” does is flag your app so that someone actually reads your explanation, and then they can decide if it’s worth excluding your app. That will obviously not happen for a traffic violation. When it comes to the credentialling process, no hospital is “looking for reasons to cause trouble—most of the time they are actively looking for more doctors, and if anything they may let some things slide that they shouldn’t.

Anyways, I suspect this won’t actually allay your fears, but I hope that explains to everyone else why this is no big deal. If someone is really nervous then Just be extra cautious.

 

[Gonio5]

When it comes to the credentialling process, no hospital is “looking for reasons to cause trouble—most of the time they are actively looking for more doctors, and if anything they may let some things slide that they shouldn’t.

While that is true many times, in this big country, there are exceptions. Sometimes, it's trying to keep out competition. Other times, a glorified secretary may be trying to cause trouble.

This topic is of interest to me because I got a traffic ticket a few months ago for allegedly running a red light. I obtained the traffic video and police body cam video from the city attorney. Bogus ticket. The traffic video shows me stopped at a red light. The woman police officer said at the time that I could talk to the judge and maybe only have to go to traffic school. What is favorable is the city attorney agrees to drop the case if I go to traffic school but won't drop the case despite the videos being favorable to me. The city attorney also insists that I must use a specific traffic school and cannot choose from the state DMV's list of 5 or 10 approved traffic courses. Odd.

It's also about playing it safe. I could go to the judge, present the police body cam and traffic video, contest the case, and save the traffic school tuition. But anything can happen in court, even an unfair judgment, so I will play it safe and pay for online traffic school.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

As others have mentioned, absolutely no credentialing will care about this. The only time you're at risk of getting the PHP is if it's a DUI.

That said, is it bogus that some states consider all traffic offences as misdemeanors? Yes. That's where your ire should be focused.

Given the above, I'm surprised you wouldn't just go to court. Sounds like you have all the evidence on your side. But perhaps not worth your time and effort.

 

[Apollyon]

As others have mentioned, absolutely no credentialing will care about this. The only time you're at risk of getting the PHP is if it's a DUI.

That said, is it bogus that some states consider all traffic offences as misdemeanors? Yes. That's where your ire should be focused.

Given the above, I'm surprised you wouldn't just go to court. Sounds like you have all the evidence on your side. But perhaps not worth your time and effort.

You are always the voice of reason. Yet, folks don't listen.

(And, if I want to "like" it twice, you get the "love"!)

 

[comp1]

If people who sit on credentialing committees responding trying to reassure the OP doesn't work, then I'm not sure what will. There is a massive shortage of physicians in this country. I know med school makes the OP feel worthless, but it's not a good perspective for the rest of their life. It's the kind of thing that makes practicing MDs go along with things like non-compete clauses in contracts. Credentialing committees care about drugs, sex and general workplace relational problems that make their own lives challenging after they hire you. The traffic ticket, whether the state called it a misdemeanor or moving violation, does not. Report it if it falls under the category described on the form and the OP is unlikely to hear about it again.

 

[GoSpursGo]

While that is true many times, in this big country, there are exceptions. Sometimes, it's trying to keep out competition. Other times, a glorified secretary may be trying to cause trouble.

Work somewhere else

 

[LucidSplash]

Another day on SDN with med students freaking out but refusing to listen to people with experience. All is right in the world.

 

[bananafish94]

This happened to me before I started medical school. I got caught in a speed trap, ultimately it became some kind of moving violation, but is still technically considered a misdemeanor. I report it on things because I am very paranoid about someone trying to get me for answering "dishonestly" but I know multiple people in the same situation who have left it off with no issues. I've gone through residency match, fellowship match, and hospital credentialing and medical licensure with no issues at all. The one thing is that you should make absolutely sure you keep all paperwork because certain medical boards will require official documentation to support what you write and it could be an unholy nightmare tracking that kind of thing down from the courthouse that it originates from.

 

[Gonio5]

Another day on SDN with med students freaking out but refusing to listen to people with experience. All is right in the world.

Usually the people with experience advise caution and playing it safe. To say "don't worry", "no problems for most people" may work most of the time but one can be the unlucky young doctor that gets bitten.

Since I know now that some states consider minor traffic violations as criminal offenses, if I get a ticket in those states, I will fight tooth and nail to get the ticket dismissed, even to the extent of hiring an attorney and having to pay their high fees.

 

[LucidSplash]

Usually the people with experience advise caution and playing it safe. To say "don't worry", "no problems for most people" may work most of the time but one can be the unlucky young doctor that gets bitten.

Since I know now that some states consider minor traffic violations as criminal offenses, if I get a ticket in those states, I will fight tooth and nail to get the ticket dismissed, even to the extent of hiring an attorney and having to pay their high fees.

The fact that most times people with experience advice caution, and the fact you have essentially unanimous “don’t worry about it” in this case from the voice of people with experience, should tell you this is REALLY a don’t worry about it situation.

I have probably 3 speeding tickets in 20 years and I hold 5 active state licenses, have been licensed in a total of 7 states in my career, and have been credentialed at probably 20 hospitals at least. Every one of those states and hospitals excludes traffic violations on the paperwork. It is not a problem.

What exactly are you looking for when you posted if you’re not going to trust a unanimous vote?

 

[Gonio5]

The fact that most times people with experience advice caution, and the fact you have essentially unanimous “don’t worry about it” in this case from the voice of people with experience, should tell you this is REALLY a don’t worry about it situation.

I have probably 3 speeding tickets in 20 years and I hold 5 active state licenses, have been licensed in a total of 7 states in my career, and have been credentialed at probably 20 hospitals at least. Every one of those states and hospitals excludes traffic violations on the paperwork. It is not a problem.

What exactly are you looking for when you posted if you’re not going to trust a unanimous vote?

What am I looking for? Anyone with experience in getting tickets in states that consider routine traffic violations as criminal offenses.

I also saw a SDN thread where someone applied for a state medical license, the job fell through, and they were considering to withdraw the state medical license application. This doctor was advised by several people to just continue with the application and get the license for the minimum period, probably two years. That advice was to avoid having to explain for the rest of your life that you withdrew an application from a state medical board.

I am convinced that playing it safe is better than opening yourself up to risk. I know a senior colleague who once had trouble with a hospital simply because they didn't want him to start practice despite a completely clean record, good credentials, etc. I also have heard through an attorney that for a few years, the one state medical board frequently tried to trick applicants so that they could fine them $5,000. Fortunately, these two events are presumably rare.

 

[LucidSplash]

What am I looking for? Anyone with experience in getting tickets in states that consider routine traffic violations as criminal offenses.

I also saw a SDN thread where someone applied for a state medical license, the job fell through, and they were considering to withdraw the state medical license application. This doctor was advised by several people to just continue with the application and get the license for the minimum period, probably two years. That advice was to avoid having to explain for the rest of your life that you withdrew an application from a state medical board.

I am convinced that playing it safe is better than opening yourself up to risk. I know a senior colleague who once had trouble with a hospital simply because they didn't want him to start practice despite a completely clean record, good credentials, etc. I also have heard through an attorney that for a few years, the one state medical board frequently tried to trick applicants so that they could fine them $5,000. Fortunately, these two events are presumably rare.

Can you directly link to the post you are referencing, so we can evaluate those circumstances you are referring to? Many of your posts cite ephemeral “others” who just happen to have been in the exact situations you describe when you need to prove a point. You are fortunate to have such widespread contacts, I am surprised you don’t personally know or know by reputation anyone who has been in this situation.

 

[Gonio5]

Can you directly link to the post you are referencing, so we can evaluate those circumstances you are referring to? Many of your posts cite ephemeral “others” who just happen to have been in the exact situations you describe when you need to prove a point. You are fortunate to have such widespread contacts, I am surprised you don’t personally know or know by reputation anyone who has been in this situation.

Started licensing process in a state I will no longer be working in

Long story short, I started the application process for my unrestricted license in two different states. The initial intent was to work in both states, but this will no longer be the case. What do I do about this pending incomplete application? Am I stuck with completing it and renewing it...

forums.studentdoctor.net

Thread is about withdrawing an application for a state medical license when their job plans changed. Some say it's ok to withdraw a state medical license application. There is at least one person advising caution about not withdrawing an application because it could look bad.

As far as the $5,000 fine, one state had on its application a question similar to "have you ever repeated your medical education?". If an applicant appeared before them for another reason, one board member would start to ask if they ever repeated a course or a final exam, even if it did not result in repeating an entire year of medical school. in order to trick the applicant. It was not extremely rare for an applicant to say "yes". The response would be to the effect of "you lied, you did repeat your medical education, $5,000 fine and a permanent derogatory record the National Practitioner Data Bank". This got so bad until the state finally modified its application.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

That thread doesn't actually say what you're suggesting. Most boards allow you to withdraw an application without consequence. One poster suggested that a single state gave them a harder time when they applied again later -- which is unfortunate but not likely generalizable. Chances are it might depend on whether an application is withdrawn because there is a problem, vs because it's just not needed any more (although that may have nothing to do with the poster whom mentioned it)

That fine stuff is insane and annoying.

There's no question that your life will be easier without misdemeanors or felonies. States assigning minor moving violations as misdemeanors is something that should be stopped. That said, the impact of these misdemeanors will be minimal except for requiring additional documentation and perhaps a delay if the board wants conformation from the state. If you can avoid having a misdemeanor on your record, that's a good plan.

A minor traffic issue is not going to derail your medical license. DUI is never a minor traffic issue, no matter the details. Even if you get this cleared from your record, it's likely disclosable to the board and may end up with a PHP assessment.

I think what we're trying to say is that you're making this out to be a bigger issue than it is.

 

[LucidSplash]

Started licensing process in a state I will no longer be working in

Long story short, I started the application process for my unrestricted license in two different states. The initial intent was to work in both states, but this will no longer be the case. What do I do about this pending incomplete application? Am I stuck with completing it and renewing it...

forums.studentdoctor.net

Thread is about withdrawing an application for a state medical license when their job plans changed. Some say it's ok to withdraw a state medical license application. There is at least one person advising caution about not withdrawing an application because it could look bad.

As far as the $5,000 fine, one state had on its application a question similar to "have you ever repeated your medical education?". If an applicant appeared before them for another reason, one board member would start to ask if they ever repeated a course or a final exam, even if it did not result in repeating an entire year of medical school. in order to trick the applicant. It was not extremely rare for an applicant to say "yes". The response would be to the effect of "you lied, you did repeat your medical education, $5,000 fine and a permanent derogatory record the National Practitioner Data Bank". This got so bad until the state finally modified its application.

This thread has nothing to do with traffic violations or misdemeanors. It is an entirely separate situation. As NotAPD says, you are making a mountain out of a molehill. We are recommending you not waste precious mental and emotional energy perseverating on this issue. Yes, do your best not to break the law. Yes, it’s ridiculous for states to consider most traffic violations as misdemeanors. But a speeding ticket alone or the “following too close” ticket you were issued will not prevent you from get a medical license or getting credentialed.

I think we are done here. This question has been asked and answered and it’s up to the OP if he wants to believe anyone. 🤷🏼‍♀️

 

[LucidSplash]

I think not. When there is a high stakes situation, even consideration of less likely scenarios are important. That is even true with clinical medicine. I know of a patient that had seizures as a presenting symptom of a DVT. Seizures was not listed in some online articles but have since been added to at least one (either Medscape or UpToDate, don't remember which).

I believe the answers. But the answers just cover things in general and what is the most common scenario, not what are possible scenarios.

Corruption in administration does occur. I prefer not to disclose an instance of corruption that I was asked to participate in when I was an intern. It was trying to fry an unpopular Black medical student.

I like that you think you’re explaining corruption in institutions to seasoned physicians. Or that institutions can turn against minoritized persons and women at the drop of hat. No one is suggesting otherwise. But they need more than a speeding ticket to do it. I’m a woman who grew up low SES, in a male dominated specialty. I don’t need you to explain to me that you should have a healthy skepticism of institutions and I know most treat doctors like interchangeable widgets. But this speeding ticket thing isn’t anywhere near the top of the list for the kind of things you should be worried about in your career.

Still waiting to hear what you are looking for. You aren’t finding anyone who has had an issue because the issue doesn’t happen. I got a speeding ticket in one of the 17 states (I looked it up) that considers some speeding tickets misdemeanors. That was in 2022. I have since obtained 4 medical licenses and gotten credentialed at numerous hospitals. All have excluded traffic tickets specifically in credentialing paperwork.

It’s hard to prove a negative. It’s going to be exhausting for you if you choose this one thing to worry about for the rest of your career.

 

[xffan624]

SD has a confidential advice forum that has a question that is answered then locked. It reads "Hi! I'm applying this cycle and have found out that in some states, every traffic violation is a criminal misdemeanor. Mine was for "Following too closely". I was wondering if this would have a serious impact on my application? I hate having to check the "Misdemeanor" box for something like this, but obviously will be doing so.>

This is very alarming. Some hospitals or residencies could make up a reason to kick you out, citing "criminal record". You could sue to try to get back but find that the hospital attorney can effectively fight hard and ban you from re-entering.

I play it safe. I do not want a criminal record. I want to know what states these are. If I rent a car in those states, I would be very cautious. My cursory internet research points to Texas as being one of those states. The medical board in California requires reporting of all traffic tickets that have a fine of $300 or more. Speeding 16 mph or more results in a fine of over $300 in many jurisdictions. Canada routinely bans entry to Americans with drunk driving arrests until the case is dismissed. If convicted, they are banned for life unless they petition after 10 years, an expensive task that may not be successful.

Are you aware of other states which make some minor traffic violations criminal offenses?

Your research is not very good. I got several speeding tickets in Texas that were nothingburgers and definitely not misdemeanors. I even was able to get them erased off my record with an online defensive driving class (at the time around 2010-12, you could do this once per year, still had to pay the fine of course).

Canada DUI reentry laws are a little more complicated. For older DUIs before the newer laws came into effect, 10 years without having to do anything was the standard and it wasn't even as hard and fast as that. Current rules for newer DUIs are more complicated and beyond the scope of this thread, but again, a DUI is not equivalent to a minor traffic violation so pretty much like comparing apples to bowling balls.

 

[Gonio5]

Your research is not very good. I got several speeding tickets in Texas that were nothingburgers and definitely not misdemeanors. I even was able to get them erased off my record with an online defensive driving class (at the time around 2010-12, you could do this once per year, still had to pay the fine of course).

Canada DUI reentry laws are a little more complicated. For older DUIs before the newer laws came into effect, 10 years without having to do anything was the standard and it wasn't even as hard and fast as that. Current rules for newer DUIs are more complicated and beyond the scope of this thread, but again, a DUI is not equivalent to a minor traffic violation so pretty much like comparing apples to bowling balls.

Texas appears to have decriminalized many traffic violations so that they are infractions (not criminal).

This lawyer's website says that in North Carolina, it is criminal (class 3 misdemeanor) if you speed 15 mph or more over the speed limit or over 80 mph (some highways in NC have a speed limit of 70). Consequences for Speeding Tickets in North Carolina May Be More Serious Than You Think

The Medical Board of California has a webpage entitled "Disciplinary Action Disclosure". It says "you do not need to report a conviction for an infraction with a fine of less than $300...". That means a traffic ticket with a $300 fine must be reported to that state's medical board. They don't say what they will do. I did read once in that state's medical board newsletter that a doctor in that state was disciplined after a conviction for shoplifting. Another doctor stole a hospital computer and was told to temporarily stop seeing patients. He did not and his state medical license was taken away.

Medical Board of California

The Medical Board of California licenses and disciplines doctors, handles complaints against physicians and offers public-record information.

www.mbc.ca.gov

In Nevada, going 15 mph over the speed limit results in a $300 fine, which would then trigger a Disciplinary Action Disclosure by any doctor with a California medical license. How Much Is A Speeding Ticket In Las Vegas?

 

[gutonc]

OP's question has been asked and answered. Closing thread before it devolves further.