Someone tell me me I can chill with clinical experience

[Paramagnetic]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Hey guys! Someone please read this and advise me on if I should or shouldn't attempt to do more shadowing or obtain different clinical experiences:

-3 Years Volunteer 911-only EMS [Diverse City, received special commendation for CPR save, once assisted higher-level providers who came from OOS during a natural disaster in my own state]

-2 Years Paid Non-Emergent Transportation EMS [85% Dialysis PTs]

-1 Year Paid 911-only EMS [College Students Demographic]

-5 Years Total, intermittent, EMT experience [Some other EMS stuff not mentioned above, but its insignificant]

-10 Hrs Shadowing a Plastic Surgeon

I get that I don't have the *perfect* idea of what it is to be a doctor. But would top-tier school adcoms consider this extensive *enough* clinical experience, despite the lack of shadowing?

I won't have done EMS volunteer for quite a while by the time I apply - does it look bad if the clinical volunteer experience isn't so recent (>4 years old @ time of application)?

 

[WedgeDawg]

It might be a good idea to do some more recent clinical stuff - if you still have EMT certification, maybe start up again for a bit, otherwise just do some emergency dept. volunteering. Remember, you're not supposed to know everything about being a physician, you just have to show that you know what its like to be around patients and that you want to be around them for the vast majority of your professional career. The argument that you do will come across stronger if your clinical experience is more recent. Additionally, I might get some more shadowing experience - 10 hours is pretty low. Do you think you can convince adcoms that you know what you're getting into with only 10 hours of shadowing a plastic surgeon?

Top tier schools aren't looking for thousands of hours of being a scribe or shadowing every specialty - they're looking for people who are going to be leaders in their field, whatever that field might be.

 

[Donald Juan]

The best advice would be to get more shadowing to show that you know more about being a physician, and not just an EMT.

With that said, I applied with 0 hours shadowing, a couple years in the military as a medic and was accepted outright the first time, so keep in mind that I (or noone else here) can say that you won't match without shadowing. But if you are worried about it, I think shadowing is the route to go, not more EMT time.

 

[Paramagnetic]

It might be a good idea to do some more recent clinical stuff - if you still have EMT certification, maybe start up again for a bit, otherwise just do some emergency dept. volunteering. Remember, you're not supposed to know everything about being a physician, you just have to show that you know what its like to be around patients and that you want to be around them for the vast majority of your professional career. The argument that you do will come across stronger if your clinical experience is more recent. Additionally, I might get some more shadowing experience - 10 hours is pretty low. Do you think you can convince adcoms that you know what you're getting into with only 10 hours of shadowing a plastic surgeon?

Top tier schools aren't looking for thousands of hours of being a scribe or shadowing every specialty - they're looking for people who are going to be leaders in their field, whatever that field might be.

I understand that I have a deficit in shadowing compared to most people. It's been difficult to find docs because I rarely speak to them in the ER when dropping off patients and there are none in my family. My communication with other providers is typically limited to EMTs, other medical techs, paramedics and nurses (when I give report). Even though I just did- no point in giving excuses over SDN.

My extensive work hours are less to buff my application and *much* more because I make a living from and enjoy it.

As for leadership, I'm not going to lie, I'm not sure how I can go about this. Leadership opportunities at work (paid EMS) are limited to people who are there full-time. Do you have any suggestion for how I can go about getting this? I'm a senior in undergrad right now, but won't be applying until the year after I graduate.

 

[Paramagnetic]

The best advice would be to get more shadowing to show that you know more about being a physician, and not just an EMT.

With that said, I applied with 0 hours shadowing, a couple years in the military as a medic and was accepted outright the first time, so keep in mind that I (or noone else here) can say that you won't match without shadowing. But if you are worried about it, I think shadowing is the route to go, not more EMT time.

I hear you. I was happy to shadow the plastic surgeon, but I'm reluctant to even add it to my application because (1) It's a plastic surgeon and (2) it looks like I only did it to "check off the box" on my application.

 

[WedgeDawg]

I understand that I have a deficit in shadowing compared to most people. It's been difficult to find docs because I rarely speak to them in the ER when dropping off patients and there are none in my family. My communication with other providers is typically limited to EMTs, other medical techs, paramedics and nurses (when I give report). Even though I just did- no point in giving excuses over SDN.

My extensive work hours are less to buff my application and *much* more because I make a living from and enjoy it.

As for leadership, I'm not going to lie, I'm not sure how I can go about this. Leadership opportunities at work (paid EMS) are limited to people who are there full-time. Do you have any suggestion for how I can go about getting this? I'm a senior in undergrad right now, but won't be applying until the year after I graduate.

Sorry, by leaders in their field, I meant people they think (hope?) will go on to make an impact in whatever field they choose. That doesn't mean they are necessarily looking for people with leadership in undergrad/as a premed. It just means they are looking for people with, in the most general way I can put it, a demonstrated pattern of excellence. I know that's vague and sounds like rhetoric, but I hate to give concrete answers to this question because then people think that's specifically what they need to do to get into a top med school. FWIW, I didn't have any "leadership" in my application.

Now, to answer your immediate concerns, shadowing can be set up by cold-calling doctors or their secretaries. Yeah, it's scary, but its what you have to do.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It might be a good idea to do some more recent clinical stuff - if you still have EMT certification, maybe start up again for a bit, otherwise just do some emergency dept. volunteering. Remember, you're not supposed to know everything about being a physician, you just have to show that you know what its like to be around patients and that you want to be around them for the vast majority of your professional career. The argument that you do will come across stronger if your clinical experience is more recent. Additionally, I might get some more shadowing experience - 10 hours is pretty low. Do you think you can convince adcoms that you know what you're getting into with only 10 hours of shadowing a plastic surgeon?

Top tier schools aren't looking for thousands of hours of being a scribe or shadowing every specialty - they're looking for people who are going to be leaders in their field, whatever that field might be.

How important is it that the clinical experience be recent (and what does recent mean)? I have 8 years of clinical experience as an OR tech, but I'll have been in the Navy for almost 6 years before applying. It was great experience that taught me a lot, and I will definitely incorporate it into my narrative. But, it's kind of hard to get clinical experience while active duty (other than shadowing, which I don't really count). I've been on the medical response team, but we don't really do much. Just train once in a while and standby during fires and medical emergencies, which are few and far between.

 

[WedgeDawg]

How important is it that the clinical experience be recent (and what does recent mean)? I have 8 years of clinical experience as an OR tech, but I'll have been in the Navy for almost 6 years before applying. It was great experience that taught me a lot, and I will definitely incorporate it into my narrative. But, it's kind of hard to get clinical experience while active duty (other than shadowing, which I don't really count). I've been on the medical response team, but we don't really do much. Just train once in a while and standby during fires and medical emergencies, which are few and far between.

Well, you have to think about the purpose of having clinical experience on your application. You have to convince adcoms that you have worked around patients, know what that's like, and that you want to do that until you retire. The last part will be easiest to do if you have sustained recent clinical exposure. If that isn't there, then your next best bet is to find a way to explain why that sustained and recent exposure doesn't exist.

In your case, I think you're alright because being active duty military is a special case where you don't have too much control over your activities compared to the general population. I think the fact that your prior clinical experience combined with your efforts to be on the medical response team (which, and correct me if I'm wrong, appears to be something you initiated as an activity for yourself) will be enough to make the case that you like being around patients and working in a caregiving capacity.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Well, you have to think about the purpose of having clinical experience on your application. You have to convince adcoms that you have worked around patients, know what that's like, and that you want to do that until you retire. The last part will be easiest to do if you have sustained recent clinical exposure. If that isn't there, then your next best bet is to find a way to explain why that sustained and recent exposure doesn't exist.

In your case, I think you're alright because being active duty military is a special case where you don't have too much control over your activities compared to the general population. I think the fact that your prior clinical experience combined with your efforts to be on the medical response team (which, and correct me if I'm wrong, appears to be something you initiated as an activity for yourself) will be enough to make the case that you like being around patients and working in a caregiving capacity.

Yeah, I joined it. There's also a medical training team, but they are mostly non-medical personnel who just observe and critique the response team during training/cert evolutions. I thought about trying to get a PT gig as an OR tech during the year before I apply, but that might be difficult AND would take time away from studying for the MCAT.

Anyway, sorry to hijack. Thanks for the insight!

 

[MDProspect]

In the words of Goro, "EMTs are glorified taxi drivers." Although I don't share this opinion, being an EMT/EMS is a career that is far removed from being a physician on the medical field spectrum. As an emergency medical responder, you get to work with patients and learn how to respond quickly to an emergency situations; however, there is more to becoming a physician than that. Volunteering at a hospital gives you a perspective on a physician day-to-day responsibilities and how they work in a interdisciplinary team with other healthcare professionals (I.e nurses, PA, etc...) to provide comprehensive care. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that you cannot get this experience as an EMT/EMS, and I can imagine that the interviewer will be questioning your motivations since you have only done EMS/EMT for this many years. In other words, why not continue doing what you love? Also, I would leave out the 10 hours of shadowing that you have done with the plastic surgeon. Since this amount of time is insignificant to have made an impact on you and plastics is a speciality that not too many people can appreciate. I would only include it, if you had done prior shadowing in a field that medical schools want more physicians in (FM, peds, oncology). Lastly, IMO, since these activities are over 4 years old, a bigger emphasis will be placed on your more recent activities.

edit: grammar

 

[medic0114]

In the words of Goro, "EMTs are glorified taxi drivers." Although I don't share this opinion, being an EMT/EMS is a career that is far removed from being a physician on the medical field spectrum. As an emergency medical responder, you get to work with patients and learn how think quickly during emergency situations; however, there is more to becoming a physician than that. Volunteering at a hospital gives you perspective on a physician's day-to-day responsibilities and how they work in a interdisciplinary team with other healthcare professionals (I.e nurses, PA, etc...). Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you cannot get this experience as an EMT/EMS and I can imagine that the interviewer will be questioning your motivations since you have only done EMS/EMT for this many years. In other words, why not continue doing what you love? I would leave out the 10 hours of shadowing that you did with the plastic surgeon. Since this amount of time is insignificant to have made an impact on you and plastics is a speciality that not too many people appreciate. I would only include it if you had done prior shadowing in a field that medical schools want more physicians in (FM, peds, oncology). Lastly, IMO, since these activities are over 4 years old, a bigger emphasis will be placed on your more recent activities.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with part of your post. Yes in most instances EMTs are glorified taxi drivers, but an experienced EMT is actually a very skilled assistant.I have been a paramedic for four years and work in a trauma center as a paramedic. Yes, I agree that EMT and physician are far apart, but paramedic and physician are much closer, so to just say "EMS" is kind of an improper catch all phrase. As a paramedic you are automatically in a leadership position as you are ultimately responsible for every patient's care and usually guide your EMT/ firefighters/ bystanders/ PD on scene to assist you. You have to use your experience, knowledge and diagnostic tools (I.E cardiac monitor, BGL, etc etc) to make a differential diagnosis and treat accordingly-in my state we do not need to call a medical command physician on most calls.

 

[LizzyM]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with part of your post. Yes in most instances EMTs are glorified taxi drivers, but an experienced EMT is actually a very skilled assistant.I have been a paramedic for four years and work in a trauma center as a paramedic. Yes, I agree that EMT and physician are far apart, but paramedic and physician are much closer, so to just say "EMS" is kind of an improper catch all phrase. As a paramedic you are automatically in a leadership position as you are ultimately responsible for every patient's care and usually guide your EMT/ firefighters/ bystanders/ PD on scene to assist you. You have to use your experience, knowledge and diagnostic tools (I.E cardiac monitor, BGL, etc etc) to make a differential diagnosis and treat accordingly-in my state we do not need to call a medical command physician on most calls.

2 Years Paid Non-Emergent Transportation EMS [85% Dialysis PTs]

The point is that when a large proportion of the work is transporting patients to dialysis (or other medical appointments) there isn't much more to it than putting the patient in the vehicle and driving. That can count as clinical experience just as transporting patients from their beds to the front door of the hospital can count as clinical but it isn't going to a huge amazing impressive experience (say that last bit in a Donald Trump voice).

 

[Goro]

The fact that you spent six years in the OR alone is massively praiseworthy. So don't sweat it that it was six years ago.

I recommend shadowing, and then you're set.

And many thanks to you for your service to our country!
Ditto to @Donald Juan

How important is it that the clinical experience be recent (and what does recent mean)? I have 8 years of clinical experience as an OR tech, but I'll have been in the Navy for almost 6 years before applying. It was great experience that taught me a lot, and I will definitely incorporate it into my narrative. But, it's kind of hard to get clinical experience while active duty (other than shadowing, which I don't really count). I've been on the medical response team, but we don't really do much. Just train once in a while and standby during fires and medical emergencies, which are few and far between.

 

[medic0114]

The point is that when a large proportion of the work is transporting patients to dialysis (or other medical appointments) there isn't much more to it than putting the patient in the vehicle and driving. That can count as clinical experience just as transporting patients from their beds to the front door of the hospital can count as clinical but it isn't going to a huge amazing impressive experience (say that last bit in a Donald Trump voice).

I have worked in EMS since I was 18, and have never transported a patient to dialysis. There's a big difference between 911 and private ambulance companies and a larger difference between EMT and paramedic. I can only hope that admission committee are fully aware of the disparity in education, experience and responsibility.

 

[LizzyM]

I have worked in EMS since I was 18, and have never transported a patient to dialysis. There's a big difference between 911 and private ambulance companies and a larger difference between EMT and paramedic. I can only hope that admission committee are fully aware of the disparity in education, experience and responsibility.

We only know what you write on your application. @Paramagnetic wrote that he had an experience that was

-2 Years Paid Non-Emergent Transportation EMS [85% Dialysis PTs]

so that is why I mentioned how that would be perceived.

 

[Dagrimsta1]

chill bro

 

[Goro]

Actually, no we're not, and it's your responsibility to inform us on your app. If you're a paramedic, let us know.

I have worked in EMS since I was 18, and have never transported a patient to dialysis. There's a big difference between 911 and private ambulance companies and a larger difference between EMT and paramedic. I can only hope that admission committee are fully aware of the disparity in education, experience and responsibility.

 

[Paramagnetic]

why not continue doing what you love? Also, I would leave out the 10 hours of shadowing that you have done with the plastic surgeon. Since this amount of time is insignificant to have made an impact on you and plastics is a speciality that not too many people can appreciate

I believe I can justify this:
-Became EMT in highschool
-Wanted to become a paramedic, shadowed them and decided I liked a lot of what they did
-Went to Community College for a year after highschool, did paramedic program prereq's
-Read a book on EKGs, decided I really liked electrophys
-Decided to become doc
-Transferred to 4-Year Uni

A plastics doc was the only one I was able to get in contact with. I know it doesn't look "great", but my motivation for med school is genuine and I have to spend some time learning the day-to-day activities of a doctor (which I was able to do and will continue to do with more shadowing hours).

@Goro I'd appreciate your take on this ^

Also, I would hope there's diversity of opinion among adcoms with respect to experiences in EMS. You get out of it what you put into it. For example, I take pride in my ability to "put stories together", perform adequate assessments, formulate a differential diagnosis, get dispositions for my patients and have meaningful interactions with higher-level providers.

 

[Paramagnetic]

We only know what you write on your application. @Paramagnetic wrote that he had an experience that was
so that is why I mentioned how that would be perceived.

Some clinical experiences are better than others, of course. This isn't to say that I should not include all of mine, correct? I suspect that diversity in experiences is worth mentioning.

As with all experiences in EMS, you can get (a little) more out of non-emergent transport than just physically being with a patient or driving a truck. Some skills can be developed or garnered by speaking to staff at dialysis clinics, learning proper bedside manner (and discovering the diversity in personality types among patients), independently researching the medical history of the patients you transport (like looking over the medical documents and researching their diseases), etc.

Agreed that there's not much you're getting out of it, but surely it's worth mentioning?

EDIT: I've reread your previous posts on this thread and I don't get the vibe that you're telling me not to put in on my application / it was worthless other than for getting paid. If that's the case, and I'm just being neurotic, please just say so 🙂

 

[Paramagnetic]

I recommend shadowing, and then you're set.
@Donald Juan

Is this @Me or @Matthew9Thirtyfive ?

 

[LizzyM]

Some clinical experiences are better than others, of course. This isn't to say that I should not include all of mine, correct? I suspect that diversity in experiences is worth mentioning.

As with all experiences in EMS, you can get (a little) more out of non-emergent transport than just physically being with a patient or driving a truck. Some skills can be developed or garnered by speaking to staff at dialysis clinics, learning proper bedside manner (and discovering the diversity in personality types among patients), independently researching the medical history of the patients you transport (like looking over the medical documents and researching their diseases), etc.

Agreed that there's not much you're getting out of it, but surely it's worth mentioning?

EDIT: I've reread your previous posts on this thread and I don't get the vibe that you're telling me not to put in on my application / it was worthless other than for getting paid. If that's the case, and I'm just being neurotic, please just say so 🙂

It's all in how you spin it. If you want to write the description as you have done above to show what activities you engaged in and what you learned, then it will be seen as more positive than, "I loaded patients in the rig and drove them to their destination."

 

[Goro]

If you are able to shadow more docs, especially those in Primary Care, then you'll be fine.

I believe I can justify this:
-Became EMT in highschool
-Wanted to become a paramedic, shadowed them and decided I liked a lot of what they did
-Went to Community College for a year after highschool, did paramedic program prereq's
-Read a book on EKGs, decided I really liked electrophys
-Decided to become doc
-Transferred to 4-Year Uni

A plastics doc was the only one I was able to get in contact with. I know it doesn't look "great", but my motivation for med school is genuine and I have to spend some time learning the day-to-day activities of a doctor (which I was able to do and will continue to do with more shadowing hours).

@Goro I'd appreciate your take on this ^

Also, I would hope there's diversity of opinion among adcoms with respect to experiences in EMS. You get out of it what you put into it. For example, I take pride in my ability to "put stories together", perform adequate assessments, formulate a differential diagnosis, get dispositions for my patients and have meaningful interactions with higher-level providers.