hello is anyone on here a current student at south college? I have a few questions regarding the online component of the program.
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South college DPT
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They don't, they aren't a student there (neither am I). Most people on this forum do not look highly upon South College. Personally, I don't know how they squeeze the traditional 3 years into 2 AND teach almost all of it online. It seems like a massive scam to me and will flood the market with unprepared therapists.
Thank for your response. I have noticed the negative look on South College on this forum but most of the time the "reasons" (if provided) go unexplained. I think they can squeeze in the information in 2 years because they have curriculum year round since they use quarters instead of semesters. I'm not sure how efficient the online lectures are though so I was looking for student advice and opinions regarding that.
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I've explained my reasoning behind for-profits many times actually, including my feelings on South College. You can look it up.
My program was 34 months and also year round. Most PT programs are year round. Being able to accelerate didactics even further while claiming equivalency is suspect. Yes, they encourage residency your third year. You see, once upon a time, EIM rolled out a residency model based on the medical model. I liked the concept. Unfortunately, it never caught on. The EIM model required a fee paid to, you guessed it, EIM. Since very few programs adopted the EIM model, what did you suppose the next best thing to bring in a stable revenue stream? You guessed it, develop your own program and funnel students through. Lovely. And yes, you can even elect their online residency program.
My program has curriculum/clinicals year round and we go for 3 full calendar years. Very few if any programs have a traditional undergraduate format with summers completely off/optional.
Ability to pass the board exam does not a good therapist make...the NPTE is designed to measure the minimum knowledge base that is required to allow a PT to practice without hurting anyone. There is a lot more to physical therapy education than just meeting this relatively low benchmark, and there are a lot of people who are skeptical of the kind of students that would be attracted to and/or resorting to a program like South College entering the profession in large numbers.
The rise of for-profit diploma mill style programs marked the beginning of a downward spiral for the law and pharmacy job markets. When you look at history, we have every reason to suspect the same will be true for physical therapy.
Even if you don't think there is anything wrong with South College's model, I think we can say with some confidence that development of an online 2-year doctorate in physical therapy at a for-profit business college is a definite red flag sign and prognostic indicator when it comes to the health of the PT job market. But when you get the likes of John Childs and Timothy Flynn involved and a lot of people stand to make a lot of money, there is nothing that can be done to stop it. The accreditation requirements are pretty black and white and leave little room for abstract concepts of what constitutes a truly quality education, and so anybody with enough willpower and financial backing can theoretically do what they have to do to meet them if they want to. We don't have anything to bottleneck the number of students that can enter the field, like medicine does with residency programs.
I am in no way a doom and gloom person when it comes to the future of physical therapy. In fact I think the profession is headed in a lot of great directions. There are some areas where the job market has gone downhill, but that has happened in the past for various reasons and the job market where I live is actually quite good. Nevertheless, I don't like the idea of South College's program more for what it represents than for the program itself.
Look at what @Azimuthal said above and then have a read of Dr. Jim Gordon's Mary McMillan lecture and you will get a sense for where I stand.
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Speaking as an individual in South College's DPT program, I can say without a doubt that it is probably the worst thing that could have happened to our profession. The director of our program has recently informed us that he is jumping ship to run Baylor's program. 2017 graduating class only had a 69% pass rate for those that took the exam in July which is awful. One very influential staff member that may or may not have been listed in the previous post, had the audacity to send out emails to those that did not pass saying they had no one to blame but themselves and should take sole responsibility for their failures (exact verbiage). They did not listen to complaints from students about curriculum being too fast, they disregarded concerns about working 55-60 hours at our terminal internship WHILE taking 2 classes full of lectures and assignments, working on our final project, and trying to prepare for boards, and now they are suffering the consequences with such a low first time pass rate. I can only speak for myself in saying this program was all about the money and simply put, a business venture for the lead faculty. Faculty did their jobs and that was all. No sense of unity or caring.
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69%...ouch. I would also imagine that the caliber of those who did manage to pass the NPTE to be questionable.
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I remember a guy (faculty?) by the name of Mike Jones who was very vocal in defending South College in Facebook posts, a couple of years ago. His name stuck in my mind because I have a friend with the same name. I wonder what South College's Mike Jones is saying now...
69% NPTE pass rate: that's abysmal. You gotta be crazy to fork out $100k to go to a school with that kind of pass rate.
69% NPTE pass rate: that's abysmal. You gotta be crazy to fork out $100k to go to a school with that kind of pass rate.
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Some of the same people are spearheading the Baylor program, beginning with 100 students. If this doesn’t shout “money grab”, idk what will.
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The worst part is that these two programs marketed that they were decreasing overall cost by being faster.
Tuition is private school tuition.
They said the lending system has led to too much debt, while simultaneously using the same system and market demand to create a fast and quick paycheck. They marketed that this was a new step in education.
Tuition is private school tuition.
They said the lending system has led to too much debt, while simultaneously using the same system and market demand to create a fast and quick paycheck. They marketed that this was a new step in education.
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You may be a little premature in your criticism of the South College DPT Program pass rate. This is first time pass rate. The FSBPT only publicly posts ultimate pass rates for DPT programs, so you have no way of knowing the first time pass rate of other programs. Some may be 69% as well. Does a verifiable source exist for knowing the first time pass rate for the South grads who took the exam in July was, indeed, 69%? Would like to see the source. My other observation is the professionalism of the individuals on this forum who are so concerned about the future of our profession, yet hide behind a pseudonym to call out other professionals. Was your DPT program responsible for the professional communication skills you display?
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Guy with pseudonym calls out pseudonyms. Triggered? Are you faculty at one of these programs?
I’m a proponent of free expression. What’s wrong with “calling out” those who place themselves in the most visible positions? I have not read anything on this thread that I would call unprofessional. Just opinions. We can either sugar coat our discussions or provide honest dissension. Which would you prefer?
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First time rate is usually posted. This is also why boards are completed following school. It serves as a defense mechanism for marketing and the teachers want you to pass immediately. It's CAPTE standard to post scores isn't it?
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It might be, especially for schools requesting accreditation. I’m pretty sure their pass rate will extend their probationary period. If not, I certainly hope so.
I don’t think any of us are against hybrid programs. I think we’re against programs that we view are predatory.
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Mike Jones is the man! but I agree. Needless to say ALL students are concerned about taking the NPTE now.
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The source is coming from a student in the, Me. This was sent in email form to the graduating class that just sat for the exam.
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FSBPT owns and administers the licensure exam and they publish only ultimate pass rate, not first time. DPT programs are required by CAPTE to post only ultimate pass rates, not first time. This site for "first-try" pass rates does not provide source of first time pass rate data. Anyone could create a website, poll a few students and publish what this website does.
South College has full initial accreditation and does not have a probationary status.
South College has full initial accreditation and does not have a probationary status.
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You’re a program developer or faculty? Should I even bother to ask which program?
The site claims that they collect data from what the respective schools publish on their own websites. Right under the “sources” tab. It’s far from perfect, but a quick visit to some random school websites can be done to verify their sources. Direct links may be too difficult to maintain considering page layers are updated regularly. Like other members have pointed out, it’s common knowledge that schools publish their first time pass rates on their pages.
“Sources:
CAPTE, Vendor Sites, APTA, and NCES.
Commission on Accreditation in Physical Therapy Education
Data Sets:
Physical Therapy School Data.
Vendor Sites
Data Sets:
Physical Therapy School Websites.
American Physical Therapy Association
Data Sets:
Physical Therapy School Data.
National Center for Education Statistics
Data Sets:
Integrated Postsecondary Education Data System (IPEDS) (nces.ed.gov). As of March 2017; refreshed annually. The Integrated Postsecondary Education Data System provides data on colleges, universities, and technical and vocational institutions across the United States.”
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Go to the FSBPT website or call them (703-299-3100) and call the APTA Department of Accreditation (703-706-3240). You will not find first time pass rates on the FSBPT website. CAPTE will verify that programs are not required to post first-time pass rates. Select random program websites and you will not find first time pass rates.
Your sources are interesting but not informed.
Your sources are interesting but not informed.
I randomly checked a few schools, and they all posted their first-time NPTE pass rates on their websites:
Elon Univ.: Elon University / Academics / Elon DPT / After Graduation
Univ of Wisconsin-Madison: https://www.med.wisc.edu/physical-therapy-program/program-accreditation/48523
Univ of South Carolina: Accreditation - My Arnold School | University of South Carolina
Gannon Univ: Gannon University | 2013-11-13 Morosky Pass Rates
I think it's common sense that if a school has a high first-time pass rate, it's going to display it prominently on its website. And if a particular school doesn't, draw your own conclusions.
Maybe. But maybe not. I don't think we have first time pass rates posted. Not 100% sure but CAPTE doesn't require it. I think ours are in the mid 90%'s but don't completely know since CAPTE doesn't require it and I know it is a drag to get things changed on the web site (contact web site people at univ, wait for them to respond, post draft to check for accuracy, blah, blah). Also each time a univ requests a report from FSBPT it costs money. Our students graduate in May, so some would take it in April (our state allows students to take NPTE before graduation) and some in July. We pay for a report in August and it doesn't give student level data. So we just know how many took NPTE and how many passed and failed. In theory a student could have taken it in April, failed, and then took it in July and passed. All we would know is the student passed. So don't think a lack of posting first time pass rate reflects poor rate; there is a reason we are one of the cheapest gigs for PT school although perhaps the same cannot be said for other schools.
Also I think it is worth thinking about what the NPTE does and does not do. Honestly I don't pay too much attention to it as a faculty member because that is not my outcome of interest. Any relatively smart person can get the study material, take some time, and pass NPTE if they have aptitude for standardized tests. If the purpose of PT education is solely to pass NPTE, then we (the profession) are in big trouble. Meeting the CAPTE minimum is sufficient in my opinion.
I agree with you. And that's why I think a program which only has a 69% passing rate does a piss-poor job of preparing its students.
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Can you share this information with the students at South College?
But with all seriousness, as a faculty member yourself, you have to admit that a 69% first time pass rate does not reflect highly on any program. I’m all for hybrid programs, but not at the cost of the quality entry level PT’s. Current competency is already being questioned.
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I would argue that didactic should be for you to pass NPTE period. Its knowledge based and that is acquired or should be prior to internships. Lab components in school should focus on each subfield, and instilling the thinking process for progressive intervention for the clinical rotations.....prior to starting clinicals so thinking patterns are in place for how to structure sessions prior to having patients return for your sessions.
This was partly the reason why I liked a 2 year model paying tuition to the school and then taking boards, with intern year with clinicals following on a restricted license (similar to the proposed changes from the task force but simply cutting it to 2 instead of having 2.5 yrs and using an ICE model. Still not positive on the specialization year as CIs are finite resources and idk how funding works) and having that across the board for all schools instead of the current matching system.
I'm going to assume the pass rate suffered largely from the incredibly condensed curriculum coupled with fulltime work just after having learned the curriculum and now trying to cram it all in to pass boards. If this resembled the medical model of 2 yrs didactic and then boards before rotations, I don't think you would see this issue. They have approximately 2 months of fulltime study following didactic completion. You would still need that restricted license year for clinicals though.
Oh and tuition being charged cheaply, similar to your program....you know, because its nice to take care of people youre training to enter your profession, and maintaining ethical billing standards without clinicians frantically looking at their watch during patient sessions to maintain productivity to pay student loan interest is a good, professional thing to keep in mind when youre training bright students who want to make a living helping people.
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Can you share this information with the students at South College?
But with all seriousness, as a faculty member yourself, you have to admit that a 69% first time pass rate does not reflect highly on any program. I’m all for hybrid programs, but not at the cost of the quality entry level PT’s. Current competency is already being questioned.
I don't know. It's a hard one. I don't think the role of PT education is to prepare students for the NPTE. I just don't think about the test much and don't consider it when teaching.
As an example (a crude example but hope it gets my point). The NPTE has 4-5 questions on research and evidence based practice. I think the NPTE is 250 questions so that is less than 2% of the exam is about research and EBP. I don't even want to consider that there would be a contemporary PT program that focuses on EBP for only 2% of the curriculum.
The NPTE assess minimal entry level competence. PT. Education focuses on clinical decision making to produce excellence.
I think there are just 2 different goals.
So low passing NPTE may reflect either poor aptitude for standardized tests or poor ability to learn material. Or not taking time to prepare. The time issue is perhaps the condensed PT program. But no one is telling students when to take the exam. They could wait and study more but that seems unrealistic. Or it could be due to poor preparation but then it makes me think that as an educator I have to give this minimal test more credence and that bums me out.
I think it is a complex issue with no easy answers.
The medical model could work if Medicare funded PT interns, similar to medicine. Without funding from Medicare or another source it would be difficult.
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And if restricted licensure could bill cpt codes with a cosigner, that mentor year could work as well. You're keeping the student there as they develop their own practice patterns while generating income to live off of.
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Do you know how many states currently have a restricted license option? I know mine doesn't but there may be some with which that could work. A lot of states aren't keen to open a practice act for obvious reasons.
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Not directly off the top of my head. But I would argue it should be within the discussion for the proposed new training pathway which "could" drop overall cost down if the clinical year is compensated.
Do you have examples of when practice acts backfired upon opening up? You have been around significantly longer than me. I'm assuming it's fear of losing referral sources honestly which will disrupt business
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CA won’t open it’s practice act to remove the ‘no puncturing of skin’ clause. They’re spineless and too afraid that once the practice act is opened, that too many other professions are waiting to include restrictions to our scope.
What she said.
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That's due to other fields protecting turf tho. This is different. This is controlling and taking care of our own field. We have imaging in more than one state currently. I don't remotely see how creating restricted licensure would cause anyone to even remotely flinch. All that it would do is mitigate cost to enter the field, decreasing stress and creating fluid practice patterns through the restricted licensure.That doesn't step on anyone's toes and would be the solution to these two yr condensed programs
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Given the data surrounding TPDN, would you really want to risk it?
Not exactly. Any time a States practice act is opened up for revision all sorts of things can be proposed by all sorts of competing interests. PTs don't 'own' the practice act for physical therapy. So if a practice act was opened to add in a restricted license, all sorts of things could also be proposed that may not be wanted by PTs. I know in some states the concern with trying to include dry needling was held off as other professions were proposing restrictions to mobilization. It's all political machinations.
Yes. Seems like that provision may restrict debridement although perhaps skin is very distinctly defined. I don't practice in CA so cannot answer definitively.
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I’m actually not concerned over TPDN. I was at one point interested in KEMG and ENMG. The barriers to entry is high, more so in CA because of this. I don’t mind the extra exams etc., for cert. It’s just difficult training in-state if not active duty military.
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PT’s are able to perform sharps debridement in CA.
“It is the official position of the Physical Therapy Board of California that, with appropriate training, physical therapists can perform debridement of nonviable tissue. Furthermore, it is the position of the Board that physical therapists may utilize sharp instruments such as scalpels, scissors, forceps, tweezers and other appropriate instruments to perform debridement.”
Wound Debridement - Physical Therapy Board of California
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Programs don’t get “shut down” after only part of a class takes the NPTE. And provide the evidence of the first time pass rate of the South graduates who actually took the exam. Other programs consistently have lower than national averages for ultimate pass rate year after year and they have not been “shut down.” Go to FSBPT website and check out ultimate pass rates for all DPT programs. South may not end up being as bad as this group thinks.