Speciality

[Poochlover11]

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Hey guys! I was just wondering what you guys think about specialites after vet schoool. Does anyone have speciality they would like to do? How exactly do specialites work? I have heard about something called match day-what is this? This is fairly far off (got to get into vet school first 😱) But I thought it would be an interesting topic to explore.

-Pooch

 

[gex2006]

I have no idea what a match day is, but I plan to specialize in birds/reptiles. This will mostly involve me finding a lot of specialists and getting them to let me work with them, that and internships. Let the fun begin 🙂!

 

[runnerDC]

"Match Day" refers to the day those who applied for internships & residencies through the match program hear about where they matched (i.e. where they will spend the next 1-3 years of their lives).

http://www.virmp.org/virmp/

As for different specialties, you can only call yourself a specialist if you become board-certified in that specialty (i.e. you do a residency in that specialty and then pass the board exam for that specialty). You can have a "special interest" in anything but can only call yourself a specialist if you are actually board-certified in that specialty.

Hey guys! I was just wondering what you guys think about specialites after vet schoool. Does anyone have speciality they would like to do? How exactly do specialites work? I have heard about something called match day-what is this? This is fairly far off (got to get into vet school first 😱) But I thought it would be an interesting topic to explore.

-Pooch

 

[Poochlover11]

"Match Day" refers to the day those who applied for internships & residencies through the match program hear about where they matched (i.e. where they will spend the next 1-3 years of their lives).

http://www.virmp.org/virmp/

As for different specialties, you can only call yourself a specialist if you become board-certified in that specialty (i.e. you do a residency in that specialty and then pass the board exam for that specialty). You can have a "special interest" in anything but can only call yourself a specialist if you are actually board-certified in that specialty.

So what is the whole process from when you finish vet to when you are board certified. What all has to happen? How many additional years is it?

 

[JustCats]

Just cats. 🙂

 

[calioutlaw1a]

So what is the whole process from when you finish vet to when you are board certified. What all has to happen? How many additional years is it?

From a board certified neurologist that I worked with:

Veterinary specialties are regulated by members of the American Board of Specialties of the American Veterinary Medical Association. An example would be the American College of Veterinary Surgeons. A board-certified specialist is a Doctor of Veterinary Medicine who has completed an approved post-graduate two to three year residency training program in a specific specialty. Following completion of that residency, the doctor has then passed a rigorous examination and is certified to practice that specialty by the regulatory body (college) governing that specialty. The guidelines of the American Board of Specialties state that only veterinarians who are board certified may advertise and refer to themselves as veterinary specialists.

After completing 4 years of vet school, you must first be accepted into a residency, which is based on similar criteria as applying to vet school, but even more competitive. Then, the length of the residency is dependent upon the specialty (but in general 2-3 years).
I am planning on specializing in neurology, which is one of the longer residencies lasting about 3 years.

 

[Poochlover11]

From a board certified neurologist that I worked with:


After completing 4 years of vet school, you must first be accepted into a residency, which is based on similar criteria as applying to vet school, but even more competitive. Then, the length of the residency is dependent upon the specialty (but in general 2-3 years).
I am planning on specializing in neurology, which is one of the longer residencies lasting about 3 years.

Interesting. Thanks for the info 🙂. What made you decide to do neurology?

 

[Poochlover11]

Just cats. 🙂

Lol 🙂

 

[JustCats]

Oops. I just noticed we're talking about internships and residencies. I'm interested in pursuing either a residency in internal medicine or shelter medicine--I haven't decided which yet.

 

[Bill59]

You can have a "special interest" in anything but can only call yourself a specialist if you are actually board-certified in that specialty.

Actually, the AVMA frowns on terms like "special interest" because it's confusing to clients. Rather, they prefer "Practice limited to ...whatever"

Even for board-certified people, most ethical guidelines are:

Name, Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Ophthalmology

 

[calioutlaw1a]

Interesting. Thanks for the info 🙂. What made you decide to do neurology?

It's a difficult question to answer, akin to asking "Why do you like chocolate?" I just sort of naturally gravitated toward the field, and it seemed like a good fit. What also appealed to me was that neurology is one of the only specialties that allows you to practice both surgery and medicine.

 

[Poochlover11]

Oops. I just noticed we're talking about internships and residencies. I'm interested in pursuing either a residency in internal medicine or shelter medicine--I haven't decided which yet.

Interesting-I didn't know you could specialize in shelter medicine. I wonder if there is a list of specialities somewhere.....

 

[AgtOrange]

I wonder if there is a list of specialities somewhere.....

Here ya go:

http://www.avma.org/education/abvs/specialty_orgs/default.asp

 

[Poochlover11]

Here ya go:

http://www.avma.org/education/abvs/specialty_orgs/default.asp

Haha! Thanks!

 

[bunnity]

That AVMA list doesn't include shelter medicine. I am planning to do the shelter med program at Penn and get in some wildlife on the side. I will probably go straight into practice after graduation and not do the residency stuff though.

 

[StillDreaming]

Hmm I hope to go an do a large animal surgery residency, but these are SUPER competitive. I will probably do an internship or two prior to a residency, but who knows where the next 4 years will take me.

 

[alliecat44]

Most specialties require a one-year rotating internship (small animal medicine/surgery or large animal medicine/surgery) or equivalent clinical experience before beginning a residency program.

Pathology and lab animal medicine are two that do not have this requirement--I think nutrition might be another one, and perhaps theriogenology?

 

[Poochlover11]

Most specialties require a one-year rotating internship (small animal medicine/surgery or large animal medicine/surgery) or equivalent clinical experience before beginning a residency program.

Pathology and lab animal medicine are two that do not have this requirement--I think nutrition might be another one, and perhaps theriogenology?

So is match day for internships or residency? If match day is for internships how do you get a residency?

 

[Bill59]

"Match day" is when all the matches are announced, for internships and residencies.

Shelter medicine is not an official (ABVS recognized) specialty.

 

[StillDreaming]

So is match day for internships or residency? If match day is for internships how do you get a residency?

It's for both of them. However, some internships don't go through the matching program (especially Large Animal ones). This you have to apply seperately for each internship, and you may know way before Match day about your internship. Some of the large animal students at my local vet school knew about their interships back in november.

I believe (please correct me if i am wrong), all residencies go through the above matching site (virmp). This is useful in that you can search the different options for residencies and then see how few there are (like i do for large animal surgery and see there are so few, and SO many people who want them) lol...

seriously, calioutlaw was right... like vet school, only harder to get it...

 

[alliecat44]

There are some residencies that also do not go through the match. Generally, since a residency program is more difficult to put together and actually does have rigid requirements for accreditation, there are fewer residencies overall than internships, and thus fewer residencies available outside the match.

Also, some residency positions are being "bought out" by corporations, but that's a whole 'nother story...

 

[Caninerepro]

Therio requires one year of clinical, and two of residency, or 6 of specific clinical experience and two of directed mentorship. FYI 🙂

 

[StealthDog]

Also, some residency positions are being "bought out" by corporations, but that's a whole 'nother story...

There are also some corporate clinics (VCA) that fund residencies that schools wouldn't otherwise have the money to offer.

 

[alliecat44]

There are also some corporate clinics (VCA) that fund residencies that schools wouldn't otherwise have the money to offer.

That's the way it started, but now it's progressed on to actually funding positions that would otherwise have been publicly available through the match. They choose and pay one of their own candidates who agrees to work for them for three years (or whatever) upon board certification.

One vet school this year had four of their residencies purchased by VCA. One way for schools to save money, I suppose...*sigh*

 

[Poochlover11]

Wow, so you are saying that large vet clinincs buy these residencies and they pick someone who is already working for them and tell them if they work for three more years they are board certified? Is that what you mean?

Also, how well do you get paid for internships and residencies-will you be able to start paying off loans from vet school? I think I have the heard the pay isn't real well for internship, if at all. How do you deal with that?

 

[StillDreaming]

Also, how well do you get paid for internships and residencies-will you be able to start paying off loans from vet school? I think I have the heard the pay isn't real well for internship, if at all. How do you deal with that?

PRobably not at a rapid rate... the general pay is about 25k a year... federal loans do allow you to hold off paying the full monthly payments while in your residency or internship, but that just menas you are paying more interest, etc, etc. Private loans are a whole nother story.

 

[alliecat44]

Wow, so you are saying that large vet clinincs buy these residencies and they pick someone who is already working for them and tell them if they work for three more years they are board certified? Is that what you mean?

Not quite--I don't know if they always choose someone who is already working for them/completing an internship at one of their hospitals, or if they're open to other candidates. I'm not sure of all of the exact details, but I believe the corporation chooses the candidate and the school has to approve the candidate. (I would think you'd have to have three heads in order for a school to decline your candidacy and save $25-30k a year for three years, but don't know 🙂) Then the spot is taken out of the match, as it's already been filled.

The corporation "provides the funding" for the residency at a veterinary school; i.e. a VCA resident's paycheck comes from VCA, whereas a "normal" resident's paycheck would come from the school. (Tiny as those paychecks are!) This is in exchange for the resident's commitment to work at one of the corporation's hospitals for 3 or whatever years after passing their boards. Their training is the same as any other resident and in these cases occurs at a veterinary school, not at one of the corporate hospitals.

Again, this all started with corporations creating ADDITIONAL residency slots. Now, however, they are actually taking "original" residency slots.

 

[aretoo]

I found a really cool site yesterday - to my understanding they are creating a board certification process in equine lameness (locomotor) pathology. One of the first (or the first? Not sure) qualifying exam is in Aug 2009. Looks really cool to me, though the program is very different from a typical residency. Here's the URL: www.iselp.org

 

[tpad40]

I found a really cool site yesterday - to my understanding they are creating a board certification process in equine lameness (locomotor) pathology. One of the first (or the first? Not sure) qualifying exam is in Aug 2009. Looks really cool to me, though the program is very different from a typical residency. Here's the URL: www.islep.org

The link didn't work 🙁 But I am very curious!

 

[tpad40]

Aha, it is iselp.org not islep.org 😉

 

[absvet]

I know this doesn't technically have to do with board certified specialties, but is it important to adcoms that you know what kind of medicine you want to practice after graduation? I am interested in so many different types, but I don't want to seem flighty! Is it bad to say that I am interested in lab animal, surgery, large animal or wildlife and hope to figure it out while I'm in school?

I do want to do a specialty, and board certification in one of those areas! I'm so undecided, though...

 

[Poochlover11]

PRobably not at a rapid rate... the general pay is about 25k a year... federal loans do allow you to hold off paying the full monthly payments while in your residency or internship, but that just menas you are paying more interest, etc, etc. Private loans are a whole nother story.

Do you take classes at all during a residency or internship?

 

[Poochlover11]

I know this doesn't technically have to do with board certified specialties, but is it important to adcoms that you know what kind of medicine you want to practice after graduation? I am interested in so many different types, but I don't want to seem flighty! Is it bad to say that I am interested in lab animal, surgery, large animal or wildlife and hope to figure it out while I'm in school?

I do want to do a specialty, and board certification in one of those areas! I'm so undecided, though...

I am assuming you are talking about what to say during an interview? From I have heard it isn't essential that you have down what you are interested in. You have four more years to figure that out. 🙂 Just have a general idea-like "large animal, lab animal, or wildlife." I think that would be a decent response. I don't think it is essential you have an exact path yet.

 

[alliecat44]

Do you take classes at all during a residency or internship?

No. Although most internships and residencies have journal clubs, presentations that you need to give, etc, this isn't done in a classroom type setting. Rather, this is on top of your 70-80 hour workweek at the hospital seeing cases.

Residency programs usually allot you time to study for boards, too.

 

[Poochlover11]

No. Although most internships and residencies have journal clubs, presentations that you need to give, etc, this isn't done in a classroom type setting. Rather, this is on top of your 70-80 hour workweek at the hospital seeing cases.

Residency programs usually allot you time to study for boards, too.

70-80 hrs a week! Holy moly! Is that the normal work schedule? Maybe I am naive but I was think like 40-50 hrs a week for a residency or internship.

 

[alliecat44]

70-80 hrs a week! Holy moly! Is that the normal work schedule? Maybe I am naive but I was think like 40-50 hrs a week for a residency or internship.

Noooo......70-80 hours a week is typical. Some residencies have a fairly good share of 100-hour weeks (surgery, anyone?). 🙂 It's very, very demanding.

 

[tpad40]

70-80 hrs a week! Holy moly! Is that the normal work schedule? Maybe I am naive but I was think like 40-50 hrs a week for a residency or internship.

If you have cases that need attention late in the day, you stay. If one of your cases goes south overnight, even if you might not be "on call" you may still need to come in. Also, residents/interns do a lot of on-call work. At the hospital where I work, the interns are out in the barn to relieve me at 5:45 am and if they're lucky, heading home for the night at 10:30 pm (unless I drag them out of bed for something ). Sometimes they are really lazy and come out to the barn at 6:30 am... As rough as it sounds, they learn a lot and have a lot of responsibility and they will leave the internship with a great set of skills/experience!

 

[Poochlover11]

Noooo......70-80 hours a week is typical. Some residencies have a fairly good share of 100-hour weeks (surgery, anyone?). 🙂 It's very, very demanding.

Hmm...that is good stuff to think on. I know you mentioned surgery-can you think of other specialites that would be so demanding (100 hrs 😱)? Are there other residencies that aren't so demanding? Or is this pretty typical. Man, I think that would be so difficult on someone's family. Basically you would have 70 hrs of free time if you worked 100 hrs-which would be enough time to shower and sleep. That is intense.

 

[Poochlover11]

By the way, thanks for the info everybody! This is good stuff to think on, and will help me decide if specializing is right for me. Thanks 🙂

 

[alliecat44]

Hmm...that is good stuff to think on. I know you mentioned surgery-can you think of other specialites that would be so demanding (100 hrs 😱)? Are there other residencies that aren't so demanding? Or is this pretty typical. Man, I think that would be so difficult on someone's family. Basically you would have 70 hrs of free time if you worked 100 hrs-which would be enough time to shower and sleep. That is intense.

Yes--very intense. Per hour, you make less than a babysitter--or a waitress! It's a very serious commitment.

Surgery is typically known as the most demanding residency out there (I could never do it), but all of them are pretty intense. I think hour-wise, the less-intense ones are anatomic and clinical pathology, and (likely, though I don't know) things like nutrition and therio. Medicine, surgery, critical care, neurology, oncology...they're all pretty darn demanding. Nobody has a life during internship/residency--and that is DEFINITELY something people need to seriously consider before entering into such a program.

 

[StillDreaming]

It's a pretty rough life, and starting a family as a resident is near to impossible (sorry to day but especiialy if you are female)... Carrying around a baby for 9 months of surgery is not very condusive, and maternity leave is probably not a feasible option.

It's definitely something you need to consder yourself and talk to you family about. It is rough on everyone. I have seen one resident break off an engagement, another really struggle with theri marriage, and yet another put off their wedding until after the residency. But then i have also seen one of the residents really luck out as their SO also did a residency (prior to this resident's term) and completely understood the requirements, so when they get called in at 4am, the SO is a little more understanding as they had been there...

If it is something you are considering, let your SO know. Present them with the cons of the residency but also the pros post-residency. Consider everything and talk it out. If it is your dram to be board certified in such and such a field, your SO will most likely work with you. IT's three years of hell in some cases, but after that you may be getting the better paycheck and have an easier time finding a job.

 

[Poochlover11]

I have a very supportive SO. But I don't think he can really understand (or I for that matter) how intense it will be until it happens. I would love to specialize, but I will also need to see where things stand at the time. Ideally I would like to wait to get pregnant till after residency (which would make me 29ish) but things happen and if I have a small child at that time I just don't know how that would fly.

 

[alliecat44]

It's really hard...good that you have a supportive SO. 🙂 It will definitely be a decision made after many, many discussions!

Myself, I'll be 31 when I graduate, and 36 by the time I finish internship/residency--assuming I get each on my first try (which is a big "if"). One of my major stressors is whether or not I want to have a family...it might turn out to be career or family for me, period, because of my age. 🙁 However, I've always wanted to specialize and I'm very single, so who knows...

It's tough for women! I definitely would not want to have a child during residency (or be raising one). Way too hard.

 

[Poochlover11]

It's really hard...good that you have a supportive SO. 🙂 It will definitely be a decision made after many, many discussions!

Myself, I'll be 31 when I graduate, and 36 by the time I finish internship/residency--assuming I get each on my first try (which is a big "if"). One of my major stressors is whether or not I want to have a family...it might turn out to be career or family for me, period, because of my age. 🙁 However, I've always wanted to specialize and I'm very single, so who knows...

It's tough for women! I definitely would not want to have a child during residency (or be raising one). Way too hard.

For sure! I remember reading on the allo thread about how med school was designed for men (I don't 100% agree and we aren't talk about med school). Because it is so much easier for guys to go through med school (or vet residency) and have a wife that stays at home and takes care of the kids. As women it is harder because it does sort of feel like choosing between residency and family.

 

[alliecat44]

For sure! I remember reading on the allo thread about how med school was designed for men (I don't 100% agree and we aren't talk about med school). Because it is so much easier for guys to go through med school (or vet residency) and have a wife that stays at home and takes care of the kids. As women it is harder because it does sort of feel like choosing between residency and family.

Abso-freaking-lutely. And the whole admissions process and how it affects things...I mean, if I had gotten accepted on my first try, then I would have plenty of time for both (and for paying off my loans)...*sigh* The whole apply-three-plus-times before you get accepted has a lot of ramifications, believe me!

🙂 Best of luck whatever you decide--you've got PLENTY of time to make the decision that's right for you. Good for you for thinking about this so early on! 🙂

 

[Caninerepro]

I don't know about total hours, but with therio the work is invariably at 2:00AM on a Saturday morning. Doing an insemination on a dog you have a 4 hour window for the maximum fertility if using frozen, and that almost never works out to be during regular clinic hours. C-sections too -- the clients always like to try to do it on their own, then figure out in the middle of the night that it is not going to work and they need to come in. I really don't know horses as much, but the few I have worked with wanted to foal at inconvienient hours as well. It's the 24/7 on call and never knowing when, or being able to make any plans that gets to you. You can't tell the client sorry, I'm reading my kid a bedtime story, it will have to wait... I am sure a lot of specialties are like that. As the resident you are the one that gets to come in. It is still the coolest job in the world though, and thus far I have only been the assistant. 🙂

 

[eventualeventer]

RE: taking classes:

It depends. Some programs require that you earn a master's degree during your residency, which involves both taking classes and doing research.

I would like to go into (equine) academic medicine, which means that I have to do an internship and residency. I'm not sure about what type of residency; the most common residencies in equine are medicine (ACVIM) and surgery (ACVS), but there are some in other fields.

 

[StillDreaming]

RE: taking classes:

It depends. Some programs require that you earn a master's degree during your residency, which involves both taking classes and doing research.

I would like to go into (equine) academic medicine, which means that I have to do an internship and residency. I'm not sure about what type of residency; the most common residencies in equine are medicine (ACVIM) and surgery (ACVS), but there are some in other fields.

i would say your best bet is probably a medicine residency. Then you'll be teaching the medicine aspect. If you go into surgery residency, then you will most likely be teaching the surgery course work. Of course the others such as therio, food animal, etc. but again this is you specializing so you will be teaching courses in that specialty.

🙂

 

[alliecat44]

RE: taking classes:

It depends. Some programs require that you earn a master's degree during your residency, which involves both taking classes and doing research.

Whoops--forgot about the concurrent MS/PhDs! However, my understanding is that there are far fewer "classes" than a typical MS/PhD program.

It probably goes without saying, but if you choose a private practice residency, you aren't going to be getting an MS or a PhD. Many academic residencies require an MS, but some do not.

 

[aretoo]

Aha, it is iselp.org not islep.org 😉

Oh, I'm really sorry!! Glad you figured it out 🙂


As for classes...at OVC at the University of Guelph, their LA residencies are really unique...you work on clinics 2/3 of the time (there are 3 residents so there's always two working clinics, one on each of the services), you do lots of on call, you supervise/teach interns and 4th year DVM students, you do a research project and have to defend your thesis at the end of your 3 year residency, and you take some classes (not sure how many but they are very specific, i.e. Soft Tissue Surgery for a surgery resident, Bovine Respiratory Pathology for medicine, etc.). At the end you have a DVSc degree and you can write your board exams.

This is all from what a couple of the current residents have told me... it sounds busy (and they are very, very busy).

ETA: the small animal ones are probably similar...I just hang out in LA not SA so I don't really know first hand. I also have no idea how the therio/neuro/critical care/whatever ones go.