specializing from pass/fail schools

[iLuvDAT]

even though some schools give out honors/pass/fail which is equivalent to A/B/F, would this grading system help you or not if you compete for a spot with another school?

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[armorshell]

My personal opinion is it's basically a wash, not helpful or harmful, but in real life it's probably impossible to figure out what effect it might actually have.

 

[capisce?]

It really just depends on each specific program. I know our director prefers people who have an actual class rank. I guess it comes down to this: two applicants with similar board score, similar experience and extracurriculars and one with a class rank of top 15% and the other pass. How can you not take the ranked student? Same goes for gpa/no class rank vs class rank. With two similar applicants it's hard not to take the one with a high class rank. A gpa without rank is meaningless...what's a 3.9 at one school may be a 3.3 at another.

 

[Revellian]

even though some schools give out honors/pass/fail which is equivalent to A/B/F, would this grading system help you or not if you compete for a spot with another school?

It was my understanding that my alma mater switched to pass/fail and removed class ranking to give its graduates a better shot at matching into specialty programs. I believe the reasoning was that a class ranking is difficult to compare between schools, ie some schools are more/less competetive than others and the student ranked 10/100 at one school could be more competetive than the student ranked 1/100 at another. It forces specialty programs to focus on board scores, extracurriculars, and letters of rec when reviewing students from unranked schools. I guess the administration at my school felt class ranking was hurting its students chances. Removing the ranking was definitely an advantage for a lot of my classmates who would have been somewhere in the middle of the pack, but whose Part I scores were in the high 90s.

 

[charlestweed]

Yes, it is definitely an advantage. P/NP system makes dental education a lot less stressful. When students are not under a lot of stress, they can focus better on the more important things: NDBE I and Research.

 

[armorshell]

Yes, it is definitely an advantage. P/NP system makes dental education a lot less stressful. When students are not under a lot of stress, they can focus better on the more important things: NDBE I and Research.

If that's true, that P/F programs allow you to focus a good deal of attention on the boards by more or less marginalizing class grades, then it completely undermines the system with which specialties accept students.

It simultaneously takes away a good indicator of performance (rank) while potentially boosting the only decent indicator left (NBDE).

 

[rarm1]

While many programs still look at grades.. other items are more important...
what you did... ie research, community service, dental related activites
other scores - national boards
recommendations - especially personal type.

For some specialities, and additional year helps, many look for a AEGD or GPR, or Anesthesia(especially OS - also OS internship)

We look at the total individual and try to blend the program from different schools

 

[DrJeff]

Don't forget also that the residencies past experience(if any) with students from that schoool can be a factor too. Particularly with a P/F school.

 

[charlestweed]

If that's true, that P/F programs allow you to focus a good deal of attention on the boards by more or less marginalizing class grades, then it completely undermines the system with which specialties accept students.

It simultaneously takes away a good indicator of performance (rank) while potentially boosting the only decent indicator left (NBDE).

You are correct! This is really an “unfair” advantage (UCLA/Harvard people possibly will disagree w/ me on this). This is definitely a huge bonus for students who attend Pass/Fail schools and want to specialize. However, it is not easy to get accepted to these schools; you must have good undergrad GPA and DAT score.

 

[armorshell]

You are correct! This is really an "unfair" advantage (UCLA/Harvard people possibly will disagree w/ me on this). This is definitely a huge bonus for students who attend Pass/Fail schools and want to specialize. However, it is not easy to get accepted to these schools; you must have good undergrad GPA and DAT score.

Well, I'm not a fancy program director or anything but it seems to me in that case, when comparing otherwise identical students, one ranked marginally well and one unranked, you would almost always pick the ranked student.

I mean, the P/F guy had 2 years to study for boards and basically nothing else to worry about right?

 

[charlestweed]

Well, I'm not a fancy program director or anything but it seems to me in that case, when comparing otherwise identical students, one ranked marginally well and one unranked, you would almost always pick the ranked student.

I mean, the P/F guy had 2 years to study for boards and basically nothing else to worry about right?

Right! That’s why there are so many “average” guys in P/F programs scoring 90+ on the NDBE.

Does this mean that the program director has mistakenly accepted the wrong candidate (the P/F guy)? Absolutely not! If there was such mistake, UCLA and Harvard wouldn’t continue to maintain high percentage of students who get accepted to specialty programs every year.

 

[Meatwad]

I was under the impression just because your school is P/F does not indicate whether or not the school keeps track of your rank. Example: I've been told by Columbia students that even though the curriculum is P/F, they indicate on your transcript whether you are top 15% or not. I'd assume 99% of directors are aware of this, and if the top 15% mark is missing from the application, they will know that student is not in the top 15%. Seems there's no way to escape ranking.

 

[armorshell]

Right! That's why there are so many "average" guys in P/F programs scoring 90+ on the NDBE.

Does this mean that the program director has mistakenly accepted the wrong candidate (the P/F guy)? Absolutely not! If there was such mistake, UCLA and Harvard wouldn't continue to maintain high percentage of students who get accepted to specialty programs every year.

Didn't you just say that going to a P/F school was an advantage because it let you spend your time focusing on the boards? Wouldn't the more impressive student still be the one who both got the score and maintained the rank?

 

[armorshell]

I was under the impression just because your school is P/F does not indicate whether or not the school keeps track of your rank. Example: I've been told by Columbia students that even though the curriculum is P/F, they indicate on your transcript whether you are top 15% or not. I'd assume 99% of directors are aware of this, and if the top 15% mark is missing from the application, they will know that student is not in the top 15%. Seems there's no way to escape ranking.

And of course, there's that.

 

[charlestweed]

Wouldn't the more impressive student still be the one who both got the score and maintained the rank?

Of course! The point I am trying to make is that they are both highly qualified candidates; the P/F guy does not have to work as hard as ranked guy in order to reach the same goal. And this is a huge advantage.

 

[tinker bell]

Looking at Harvard, ucla, columbia....they are all P/F schools, and they are major producers of specialists. I mean, most of their students specialize in something. It's an advantage to attend a school with P/F system. I think it takes off a lot of pressure so you can concentrate on extra activities like community work, research, or study for ndbe.
However, when it comes to interview, all they care is your personality. Whether you would get along with the people there or not is probably the most important factor. I don't think 1 or 2 points more or less would kill you.

 

[1992Corolla]

The general consensus to me would be to work hard in every situation and try to get chips to fall in your favor.

If you are at a pass fail school then don't just try to get C's to pass. You obviously want to learn as much as you can so you have a strong foundation for your specialty. At a ranked school you will have to work hard as well. The system seems to have worked for more than 20 years.

Good grades, boards, extracurriculars and group dynamic skills (ie, ability to socialize normally) and you have a good chance of getting into a program.

 

[shabu2]

Didn't you just say that going to a P/F school was an advantage because it let you spend your time focusing on the boards? Wouldn't the more impressive student still be the one who both got the score and maintained the rank?

Prob at schools like Columbia, the majority of your classmates are super intelligent and gunners and all have Part I in the 90's, so how do you rank someone at the bottom third of the class with >90s part I and would be a top candidate at another school. That is the whole point of standardized testing, only a percentage of students score well and should be an equalizer in theory. Rank means less because all schools are not equal.

 

[1992Corolla]

Prob at schools like Columbia, the majority of your classmates are super intelligent and gunners and all have Part I in the 90's, so how do you rank someone at the bottom third of the class with >90s part I and would be a top candidate at another school. That is the whole point of standardized testing, only a percentage of students score well and should be an equalizer in theory. Rank means less because all schools are not equal.

I agree. With the trends I have seen at SDN (Stats on SDN are 73.5% accurate - and 20% of those who quote stats on SDN are crazy)...No seriously though, I think if you had someone in the top 50 % and a 94 Part I, he would have a better shot than someone in top 10% and an 86 Part I.
Thats what I think anyway.

 

[armorshell]

Prob at schools like Columbia, the majority of your classmates are super intelligent and gunners and all have Part I in the 90's, so how do you rank someone at the bottom third of the class with >90s part I and would be a top candidate at another school. That is the whole point of standardized testing, only a percentage of students score well and should be an equalizer in theory. Rank means less because all schools are not equal.

I totally understand that, but it still provides for some weird situations. For example, imagine two imaginary candidates applying for ortho, Columbia Carl and Pacific Pete. Both are "ranked" 70th in their class (bottom of the class for Carl and ~50% for Pete). They both studied hard and got 96 on the boards. I think anyone here would tell you Pete doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell, where Carl has a pretty darn good shot, even though they've both shown through a impartial qualifying test that they're equal. (This is of course hypothetical, because if Pete can get a 96 he can probably do a lot better than 70th at Pacific)

I just can't wrap my head around why it's considered okay for some school to block part of the equation for determining a good candidate. If I didn't submit my GPA to AADSAS a year ago I'd be in the pre-dental forum still.

 

[charlestweed]

If you are at a pass fail school then don't just try to get C's to pass. You obviously want to learn as much as you can so you have a strong foundation for your specialty.

I agree. Even at P/F program, you still want to learn as much as possible since most of the material that are taught during the first 2 years will be asked on the 1st board exam.

 

[winlin]

I agree. Even at P/F program, you still want to learn as much as possible since most of the material that are taught during the first 2 years will be asked on the 1st board exam.

I'd agree with this. But it's not like you take a break from class and study for boards at these schools. Years 1 and 2 at most schools focus on the stuff on the boards, and these schools likely do this particularly well. Every semester or quarter is jammed with classes. Even though it's P/F, the curriculum is crazy rigorous, even to pass. I've heard Columbia's might be the toughest out of all dental schools and I know Ucla is no picnic. Seems like specialty programs love the quality of these students and respect the reputations of these programs as well, whether they rank students or not. Much of this quality may come from the students themselves but it would be naive to not attribute some of this to the schools themselves.

 

[helico]

It really just depends on each specific program. I know our director prefers people who have an actual class rank. I guess it comes down to this: two applicants with similar board score, similar experience and extracurriculars and one with a class rank of top 15% and the other pass. How can you not take the ranked student? Same goes for gpa/no class rank vs class rank. With two similar applicants it's hard not to take the one with a high class rank. A gpa without rank is meaningless...what's a 3.9 at one school may be a 3.3 at another.

Do you only have people in your program from schools that rank applicants? That's important for people to know before applying.

 

[armorshell]

Much of this quality may come from the students themselves but it would be naive to not attribute some of this to the schools themselves.

I don't think naive is the right word to use their. It seems unsurprising that schools who only recruit the best of the best have high board averages.

 

[Revellian]

I don't think naive is the right word to use their. It seems unsurprising that schools who only recruit the best of the best have high board averages.

I think the preponderance of a student's success is due to individual effort, but you don't think the school plays a role? Although it's impossible to quantify the exact magnitude of their effect, it seems to me the curriculum, the faculty, as well as peer-motivation can make a significant contribution to the aspirations of a student body.

 

[armorshell]

I think the preponderance of a student's success is due to individual effort, but you don't think the school plays a role? Although it's impossible to quantify the exact magnitude of their effect, it seems to me the curriculum, the faculty, as well as peer-motivation can make a significant contribution to the aspirations of a student body.

I never said the school didn't play a role. As you mentioned, it's all about magnitude, and I personally believe the greatest burden falls upon the individual.

 

[2thmaker]

I attended a P/F school on the east coast and there really was no time to relax. There is a misconception that students from P/F schools don't have to work as hard or are at an advantage versus rank when applying to specialty programs. True it is harder to gauge where the student is compared to other students in a P/F system. My first two years in dental school were spent with the medical school, taking their exams and attending full body dissections labs and other lab courses. Also, the P/F mark was never the same "number" from exam to exam. It shifted based based on how the overall cohort performed. You may have done decent on a major exam, but still failed because your score lied outside the standard deviation needed to pass. Without rank as a major indicator to assess applicants, other qualities are reviewed ie. board scores and letter of recs. Is this unfair.. probably. but as Dr. Jeff astutely pointed out: a school that consistently delivers competent residents into specialty programs will have the advantage, P/F or not.

 

[Notradaya]

i am acutally attending a P/F course in australia, and was pretty damn convinced that my only ticket into a specialty program in the states was by doing the honours program here... something to set me apart from the rest of my classmates. i was very convinced that being in a P/F program would hinder my ability to get in anywhere... but now i'm not so worried. not that i'm going to now drop the idea of honours all together, but i'm not worried so much that if i don't do it i'm screwing myself for the rest of my dental career. 😀 i tend to over-drama-fy the situation, can't you tell!?

now i guess my only obstacle will be trying to get into a specialty program as a foreign trained dentist. that or i'll have to do that stupid 2yr bridging thing that most schools require you to do to get that damn DDS from a stateside school. (i'll make sure to do it at a P/F school though! 😛) why i came here is looking pretty fuzzy to me... especially considering that i still may like the option of returning home someday!! but this post eased some of my anxieties! and now it's back to studying for me... believe me, a P/F course is not a walk in the park, we work just as hard, we just don't get recognised for it... now THAT is frustrating. 🙂

 

[OpenMargins]

The ortho program that accepts Carl will regret their decision. He's a really annoying person.

I totally understand that, but it still provides for some weird situations. For example, imagine two imaginary candidates applying for ortho, Columbia Carl and Pacific Pete. Both are "ranked" 70th in their class (bottom of the class for Carl and ~50% for Pete). They both studied hard and got 96 on the boards. I think anyone here would tell you Pete doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell, where Carl has a pretty darn good shot, even though they've both shown through a impartial qualifying test that they're equal. (This is of course hypothetical, because if Pete can get a 96 he can probably do a lot better than 70th at Pacific)

I just can't wrap my head around why it's considered okay for some school to block part of the equation for determining a good candidate. If I didn't submit my GPA to AADSAS a year ago I'd be in the pre-dental forum still.

 

[lightspeedTX]

Anyone have a list of all the d-schools with P/F?

 

[rarm1]

Grad programs use all the info they can to select the best matches... as I said before grades are only 1 part... many of the other items have been mentioned.... national boards, experience, extra activities, recommendations, especially if the program goes someone at your school, experience with other graduates...etc

Often a post grad year will help you get the best experience... often a AEGD, GPR, or OS or Anesthesia internship.... Just be sure that the program will assist you in apply to an advanced program.

Again, This year, two of my residents are seeking advanced training, and should have no problem getting in.

 

[in her drawer]

I'm not sure what effect a pass/no pass curriculum has on getting into a specialty program. While we don't do Exceptional Pass like UCLA, the UCSF faculty will write letters of commendation and place them in your file if you do well in a class.

 

[eapleitez]

Just because a school is P/F, that doesn't mean it's going to be easy or that you don't have to worry about doing well. Some of these classes are really hard!

 

[rarm1]

I'm not sure what effect a pass/no pass curriculum has on getting into a specialty program. While we don't do Exceptional Pass like UCLA, the UCSF faculty will write letters of commendation and place them in your file if you do well in a class.

The recommendation letters are great to see... but most students only ask/sent the ones they are know will be positive... I would generally call and speak to the profs who wrote the letters.... or at San Fran... maybe to Bud Silverman... or Francina Nur

 

[Ligature]

I just can't wrap my head around why it's considered okay for some school to block part of the equation for determining a good candidate. If I didn't submit my GPA to AADSAS a year ago I'd be in the pre-dental forum still.

So, I don't think tha Dental schools are "pre-specialty schools". As a result, the purpose of dental school should be to educate the best possible dentists, not to get people into specialty. I personallly attend one of those Pass-Fail schools with no class ranks, and I think that the greatest benefits are that it lightens the stress load allowing students to focus on LEARNING so they can be the best THEY can be not so they can be better than the next guy. It also encourages an environment of cooperation. If someone discovers a great resource, there's less incentive to keep it to onesself in an effort to "stay one step ahead." I love pass-fail, and I do understand how it can be a dilemma when choosing students for specialty. But face it-all of us that have been invited for interviews have proven that we are QUALIFIED. I think it's more about WHO YOU ARE at this point

 

[armorshell]

Adam Smith and Darwin are always telling me competition breeds fitness, but what the heck do those guys know?