Specializing in Ortho

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billiken10

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I know this is an obvious and repetitive topic in this forum, but I have a quick question regarding specializing in ortho. I've heard that you need to be essentially atop your class to have any shot of gaining acceptance in an ortho program. Is it that bleak? If I want to specialize in ortho, and I do, what kind of grades/board scores are necessary to be a competitive applicant? Thanks for humoring me, I appreciate it!

b10
 
top 5%; maybe top 10%

Low to High 90's on the boards. Granted the two scores complement each other, so having a 97 on the boards would help being only in the top 10% of your class.

Why do you want to do ortho before you've even started school? Unless you've got a parent or a practice waiting to take over; it's best just to see what you enjoy. Just my opinion though.
 
ok ... to clarify. Those numbers are needed to get into some of the highest programs or the program of your choice. It's possible to get into a program somewhere with numbers below that. A lot comes down to board scores in the end. Some programs put more weight on those numbers than class rank.
 
What does it take? When you find out, notify sdog, who has applied year after year with the following stats and still not been accepted:

Part I - 96
Part II - 92
Class rank - 11/93 (just outside top 10% and pretty darn good)
Research - 3 years with presentations at national/international levels
GPR - yes, one year

Match for Ortho? Not a single one, even after multiple interviews, for the past two years.


Or, as griffin04 what Ortho programs want. She has great board scores, high class rank, a GPR, and after two years hasn't gotten an acceptence.
 
ItsGavinC said:
Actually, I know what it takes. Parents with large pocketbooks willing to let some of those funds go.
Click to expand...

That and parents who are orthodontists. Nothing says acceptance like an alumnus donating plenty of money. Well, it never hurts.
 
Those numbers ensure you an interview. What gets you accepted is the interview itself. Or so I hear.
 
Keep in mind there are also more competitive programs and less competitive programs. Even being top 5 and high 90's you still may not even be offered an interview at UNC and others. On the other hand, students in the mid 80s have gotten into Vanderbilt and other programs. Now which other programs are traditionally competitive and less competitive, and which programs are stong and not as strong? I don't know.
 
DDSSlave said:
Keep in mind there are also more competitive programs and less competitive programs. Even being top 5 and high 90's you still may not even be offered an interview at UNC and others. On the other hand, students in the mid 80s have gotten into Vanderbilt and other programs. Now which other programs are traditionally competitive and less competitive, and which programs are stong and not as strong? I don't know.
Click to expand...

Does it really matter which ortho program/school to graduate from in order to become a better/more competent orthodontist? I know a few dentists that graduated from less competitive dental schools and they are as competent as the ones who graduated from more competitive dental schools?
 
balance said:
Does it really matter which ortho program/school to graduate from in order to become a better/more competent orthodontist? I know a few dentists that graduated from less competitive dental schools and they are as competent as the ones who graduated from more competitive dental schools?
Click to expand...

I really don't know. There are schools that don't use NiTi. There are probably schools that don't use digital and don't trace via computer. There are probably schools that don't have orthagnathic experience. Honestly, there are probably programs that can make you into a better orthodontist right out of school. Keep in mind that CE and experience over time may equal things out.
 
DDSSlave said:
I really don't know. There are schools that don't use NiTi. There are probably schools that don't use digital and don't trace via computer. There are probably schools that don't have orthagnathic experience. Honestly, there are probably programs that can make you into a better orthodontist right out of school. Keep in mind that CE and experience over time may equal things out.
Click to expand...

What schools don't use NiTi??? I can't imagine a SINGLE orthodontic program not using NiTi and straight wire mechanics...I realize there are programs that have more of a Tweed influence than others (Oklahoma, UTenn, etc...) but I can't imagine any resident coming out of an orthodontic residency not using NiTi. 😱

Just like dental school...any accredited orthodontic residency is going to adequately train their residents. While you may gain more experience in say orthognathic surgery in program A than B I can tell you from personal experience that it all becomes a wash REAL FAST in the "real world" 😉
 
Thanks for the advice. I think it's important to keep in mind that when it comes to applying, one shouldn't be too picky but rather feel fortunate to be accepted to a traditional ortho program period. I'm just hoping to apply, interview, rank and let the cards fall as they may.
 
DDSSlave said:
Keep in mind there are also more competitive programs and less competitive programs. Even being top 5 and high 90's you still may not even be offered an interview at UNC and others. On the other hand, students in the mid 80s have gotten into Vanderbilt and other programs. Now which other programs are traditionally competitive and less competitive, and which programs are stong and not as strong? I don't know.
Click to expand...

Whoa!! 😱 Vanderbilt has an ortho program!! 😍
 
balance said:
Does it really matter which ortho program/school to graduate from in order to become a better/more competent orthodontist? I know a few dentists that graduated from less competitive dental schools and they are as competent as the ones who graduated from more competitive dental schools?
Click to expand...

Yeah, don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Getting into any ortho program is a feat requiring quite a bit of luck, even if your board I scores are in the high 90s and you rank #1 in your class. Ortho is ortho. Is ortho. Let me in!!!!
 
Supertrooper- How'd you get an avatar of Johnny Chimpo? That's awesome!! Great movie.
 
SuperTrooper said:
Whoa!! 😱 Vanderbilt has an ortho program!! 😍
Click to expand...

Yes, the orthodontic program is one of the only two dental residencies availalbe at the Vanderbilt University Medical Center. The other dental residency is the oral & maxillofacial surgery. Not surprisingly, Vanderbilt orthodontic program will expose you to a lot of surgical orthodontics/orthognathic cases. I'll be heading Nashville in July.
 
DDSSlave said:
Now which other programs are traditionally competitive and less competitive, and which programs are stong and not as strong? I don't know.
Click to expand...

Just to clarify, there is no such thing as a "less competitive" ortho program. Every ortho program is full after match day. It's a fluke if there is a spot open anywhere post-match day. Not like GPR programs where 8/8 spots can be open after match day.

From the applicant end, I think it is very unpredictable as to where you will get an interview. I got some interviews at places I almost didn't apply to b/c I thought they'd laugh at my application, and I didn't get interviews at other programs where I thought I would be a competitive candidate.
 
UTDental said:
Supertrooper- How'd you get an avatar of Johnny Chimpo? That's awesome!! Great movie.
Click to expand...

Hey, glad you like it!! I came across it on some random website - and thought it was really cool. I'm glad it was the censored version of the picture. I'm sure you know that in the real Johnny Chimpo emblems in the movie - the banana is something else 😉 . Couldn't have made that my avatar. 😱
 
BlueToothHunter said:
Yes, the orthodontic program is one of the only two dental residencies availalbe at the Vanderbilt University Medical Center. The other dental residency is the oral & maxillofacial surgery. Not surprisingly, Vanderbilt orthodontic program will expose you to a lot of surgical orthodontics/orthognathic cases. I'll be heading Nashville in July.
Click to expand...

Wow! Congrats!! Vanderbilt would be a dream come true - my father has now settled down in nashville. I don't know if I'll be able to pull off getting into ortho. So far, I'm pretty much middle of my class rank-wise. I'm gonna have to start hunkering down.
 
drben said:
What schools don't use NiTi??? I can't imagine a SINGLE orthodontic program not using NiTi and straight wire mechanics...I realize there are programs that have more of a Tweed influence than others (Oklahoma, UTenn, etc...) but I can't imagine any resident coming out of an orthodontic residency not using NiTi. 😱
Click to expand...

I asked around and apparently UTenn does incorporate some NiTi, but its emphasis is Tweed and edgewise.
 
billiken10 said:
I know this is an obvious and repetitive topic in this forum, but I have a quick question regarding specializing in ortho. I've heard that you need to be essentially atop your class to have any shot of gaining acceptance in an ortho program. Is it that bleak? If I want to specialize in ortho, and I do, what kind of grades/board scores are necessary to be a competitive applicant? Thanks for humoring me, I appreciate it!

b10
Click to expand...


My older friend which graduated in 2004, matched her number one spot. She had 96 NBDE1, 96 NBDE2, and was 5th out of a class of 55 (roughly top 5%). So...... yes it is that bleak, do the best possible you can, and see what happens....thats my plan too. Good Luck 👍
 
What else could they want??? 😱 😱 (If are parents arent filthy) Possbily research?

Seems like its impossible, but Im still going for it with my best.


ItsGavinC said:
What does it take? When you find out, notify sdog, who has applied year after year with the following stats and still not been accepted:

Part I - 96
Part II - 92
Class rank - 11/93 (just outside top 10% and pretty darn good)
Research - 3 years with presentations at national/international levels
GPR - yes, one year

Match for Ortho? Not a single one, even after multiple interviews, for the past two years.


Or, as griffin04 what Ortho programs want. She has great board scores, high class rank, a GPR, and after two years hasn't gotten an acceptence.
Click to expand...
 
5th out of 55 students is top 9-10%. Impressive nonetheless. It seems being in the top 10% from has been the maker/breaker for many applicants.
 
Just for the sake of clarification...Tweed is a treatment philosophy that uses distinctive treatment mechanics (tip-backs on second molars, "10-2 anchorage", lots of High Pull J-Hook Headgear, etc...) to obtain a desired treatment outcome. Tweed mechanics utilizes edgewise brackets (typically 0-0 or "standard" edgewise brackets.

Straightwire technique (vast majority of US orthodontists practice this technique) still uses edgewise brackets but each brackets has a specific prescription.

I just don't want any of you potential orthodontic applicants to be as clueless as I was when I was applying 😀
 
drben said:
I just don't want any of you potential orthodontic applicants to be as clueless as I was when I was applying 😀
Click to expand...

Very much appreciated! I guess I was trying to say that there are some (or one) programs that focus heavily on using standard brackets and less on prescription brackets when this seems to be the opposite of most other programs. But for anyone who's interested keep in mind this is secondhand info. Thanks again. It's great to have orthodontists and ortho residents here. Just wish there were more.
 
does it help to know all this stuff prior to applying? through independent study and reading tons of the CE materials that one of my relatives (an ortho) gets, along with shadowing, i know a heck of a lot more about case planning and different ortho techniques than most 1st year residents. just afraid that i won't even get an interview anywhere to demonstrate this fact (if i do indeed to apply).


drben said:
Just for the sake of clarification...Tweed is a treatment philosophy that uses distinctive treatment mechanics (tip-backs on second molars, "10-2 anchorage", lots of High Pull J-Hook Headgear, etc...) to obtain a desired treatment outcome. Tweed mechanics utilizes edgewise brackets (typically 0-0 or "standard" edgewise brackets.

Straightwire technique (vast majority of US orthodontists practice this technique) still uses edgewise brackets but each brackets has a specific prescription.

I just don't want any of you potential orthodontic applicants to be as clueless as I was when I was applying 😀
Click to expand...
 
Jone said:
I know a heck of a lot more about case planning and different ortho techniques than most 1st year residents.
Click to expand...


If you get an interview I think you should definitely repeat this statement to the program director. This is BS.
 
His statement would definately make it into the Orthodontic Applicants' Hall of Fame as "what not to say in front of the program director"...
 
Jone said:
does it help to know all this stuff prior to applying? through independent study and reading tons of the CE materials that one of my relatives (an ortho) gets, along with shadowing, i know a heck of a lot more about case planning and different ortho techniques than most 1st year residents. just afraid that i won't even get an interview anywhere to demonstrate this fact (if i do indeed to apply).
Click to expand...

Honestly, I don't think the interviewers give a crap how much ortho you think you know. You are going to learn ortho when you get there. I think the most important thing they look at during an interview is your personality and how you carry yourself. There were quite a few well qualified candidates that interviewed in my program that had no chance because of their "I am God" attitudes. It was actually kinda amusing.
 
I think most program directors simply want to know what type of personality you have. Afterall, they have to spend a LOT of time with you over the next couple of years. Eliminating the dorks makes their lives a whole lot easier. They'll teach you all you need to know.
 
Dumb question,... but does anyone know how large most ortho program are? (If only the top few students at each school are accepted, I was guessing that they'd have a small class size.)
 
dz2110 said:
Dumb question,... but does anyone know how large most ortho program are? (If only the top few students at each school are accepted, I was guessing that they'd have a small class size.)
Click to expand...

I dont know the number for all the programs, but UNC accepts more than most I am told, and they accept 5-6/year. Unless of course you count OEC programs b/c they accept around 15/year (I think). I think the average (I am waiting for the 2005 ASDA book still) is like 3 or 4 per year.
 
St. Louis takes 14 residents a year.

dz2110 said:
Dumb question,... but does anyone know how large most ortho program are? (If only the top few students at each school are accepted, I was guessing that they'd have a small class size.)
Click to expand...
 
UTDental said:
St. Louis takes 14 residents a year.
Click to expand...

I know first hand that St. Louis does in fact take about 14 a year. This makes it, I believe, the biggest ortho program in the nation and the facilities are outstanding. I am almost certain it is the newest and most advanced as well. The clinic is mind-blowing. Very impressive.
 
Some programs take only one (Mayo), some take quite a few more as previously posted. If I had to guess, I would put the median number at five or six per program.
 
Here are the stats from the pass/match website.

http://www.natmatch.com/dentres/prgstats.htm

Part way down the page you will see the number of positions for each of the specialities. 10 schools accepted 3, 12 schools accepted 4, and then it tapers down from there on both sides.

Hope that helps.
 
Wow! Looks like most programs have less than 8 students--and only 243 students are accepted each year.
 
ORTHO 2001 2002 2003 2005 2004
Applicants Participating in the Match* 572 502 530 512 504 (-8)
Positions Offered 233 248 256 248 244 (-4)
Matches/Filled Positions 231 247 253 243 243 (n/c)
Unfilled Positions 2 1 3 5 1 (-4)

These odds dont seem too bad to me. I got this from grtuck's link. Looks to be about a %50 chance.
 
J2AZ said:
ORTHO 2001 2002 2003 2005 2004
Applicants Participating in the Match* 572 502 530 512 504 (-8)
Positions Offered 233 248 256 248 244 (-4)
Matches/Filled Positions 231 247 253 243 243 (n/c)
Unfilled Positions 2 1 3 5 1 (-4)

These odds dont seem too bad to me. I got this from grtuck's link. Looks to be about a %50 chance.
Click to expand...

Those stats are based on those who got interviews. So it's a 50% chance if you apply to all schools and get interviews at all schools.

Getting an interview can be difficult these days.
 
ItsGavinC said:
Those stats are based on those who got interviews. So it's a 50% chance if you apply to all schools and get interviews at all schools.

Getting an interview can be difficult these days.
Click to expand...

are you sure about that? Since the link says "Applicants Participating in the Match", not "Interviewed Applicants Participating in the Match". Please advise.
 
balance said:
are you sure about that? Since the link says "Applicants Participating in the Match", not "Interviewed Applicants Participating in the Match". Please advise.
Click to expand...

You have to interview at a program before you can put them on a Match list.
 
J2AZ said:
ORTHO 2001 2002 2003 2005 2004
Applicants Participating in the Match* 572 502 530 512 504 (-8)
Positions Offered 233 248 256 248 244 (-4)
Matches/Filled Positions 231 247 253 243 243 (n/c)
Unfilled Positions 2 1 3 5 1 (-4)

These odds dont seem too bad to me. I got this from grtuck's link. Looks to be about a %50 chance.
Click to expand...

Since you brought this up, let me make an assumption here and correct me if i am wrong.
243 positions are filled and there are 50 dental schools in total, so that averages to about 5 positions per school. If you stay in top 5 of your class, you will have a solid chance to match no matter where you are.
 
BlueToothHunter said:
Not everyone in the top 5 wants to go into orthodontics.
Click to expand...



right, but to be safe, let's say.

plus, you have to remember some schools are bigger than others. NYU might match 8-10 into orthodontics, while the university of missisippi might only match 1, or even none.
 
DDSSlave said:
You have to interview at a program before you can put them on a Match list.
Click to expand...

Do you know approximately know how many people apply for Ortho each year?

Would you agree 10 applicants from each school, 50 x 10 = 500 (total current year applicants) + 200 (previous years graduates) = 700 (total Ortho applicants).

Out of these 700 applicants, 240 will interview which is 33%. Out of these 33%, 50% match, so you have a 17% chance.
 
balance said:
Do you know approximately know how many people apply for Ortho each year?

Would you agree 10 applicants from each school, 50 x 10 = 500 (total current year applicants) + 200 (previous years graduates) = 700 (total Ortho applicants).

Out of these 700 applicants, 240 will interview which is 33%. Out of these 33%, 50% match, so you have a 17% chance.
Click to expand...

No, you're not interpreting the match results properly. The number of "applicants participating in the match" is the same as saying "applicants who had at least 1 interview." In the case of 2004, this number was 504. "Positions offered" is the number of spots there are out there; for 2004, this was 244.

There may have been more than 504 applicants because there are applicants who get zero interviews. But if you get at least 1, you will most likely participate in the match to see if you get into that program, or any others if you had more than 1 interview.

However, not every program participates in match, so there are more than 244 spots each year. The programs that don't participate in match make their acceptance offers prior to the match. Applicants who get accepted this way must withdraw from the match, so they don't get included in the 504 "applicants participating in the match."

Confusing? I think so.

Bottom line - cross your fingers and hold your breath. If you are the religious type, pray. A lot.
 
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