Specialty hype

[UCSFplayboy]

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Looking at schools like Penn, UW, UCSF, Stony Brook, UoP, their AA's are so nearly identical - and within 0.5 at the far end -some schools seem to receive much more attention on being a specialty school. Namely Penn and to a lesser degree UCSF. UW, SB and UoP have practically the same quality of students as Penn, but people rarely target them as specialty schools. At least one is known as a GP school. This casts so much doubt whether the school a person attends really does play a role in specializing. There is talk among entering students that anyone who works hard can go where they want, but to me history and the schools' track record seem to indicate otherwise.

 

[rkamsterdam]

Looking at schools like Penn, UW, UCSF, Stony Brook, UoP, their AA's are so nearly identical - and within 0.5 at the far end -some schools seem to receive much more attention on being a specialty school. Namely Penn and to a lesser degree UCSF. UW, SB and UoP have practically the same quality of students as Penn, but people rarely target them as specialty schools. At least one is known as a GP school. This casts so much doubt whether the school a person attends really does play a role in specializing. There is talk among entering students that anyone who works hard can go where they want, but to me history and the schools' track record seem to indicate otherwise.

umm what??

 

[CMistry]

What?? A school's reputation on specialization is not based on the DAT or their GPA. It is based on how they prepare their students, and how many choose to pursue specialities. How smart the students are has nothing to do with it. I know plenty of genious pre-dents whose dreams are to become a G.P.!

-Cyrus

 

[armorshell]

Couple of things here. First of all, Statistics 101, correlation does not equal causation. Just because a school has a track record of graduating a large number of specialists doesn't really say anything about why.

Secondly, you're making a faulty assumption that all dental students want to specialize. You can't really consider a "specialty rate" without considering the number of people actually pursuing specialty training. I've met tons of people at my school with impeccable undergraduate GPAs and 24+ DAT scores who have literally no interest in any sort of specialty training whatsoever. We have a lot of career changers as well, and family men/women who aren't interested in devoting more time to their education than they have to, etc...

The only thing that can stop someone from specializing, is them, and vice versa. Penn doesn't take mediocre students and turn them into surgeons, just like stony brook doesn't take excellent students and prevent them from becoming orthodontists.

 

[dr bojangles]

ditto to what armor said

 

[lindsey122]

I disagree... if a school doesn't have everybody wanting to specialize...then the school sucks. And by the way everybody knows that the DAT shows how good you are with your hands which means it shows all the people that will make good surgeons. They shouldn't even base it on how you do in dental school.

 

[rkamsterdam]

I think it all depends on your own personal goals and what you make of your education.

If you take the same bright student and put him at his state school as opposed to Columbia, I'd venture to say that his/her chances of specializing are equal.

 

[axum]

And by the way everybody knows that the DAT shows how good you are with your hands which means it shows all the people that will make good surgeons. They shouldn't even base it on how you do in dental school.

Really? I didn't realize that being able to fill in bubbles with a mouse meant that you had good hand skills...maybe good hand-eye coordination.

 

[armorshell]

I disagree... if a school doesn't have everybody wanting to specialize...then the school sucks. And by the way everybody knows that the DAT shows how good you are with your hands which means it shows all the people that will make good surgeons. They shouldn't even base it on how you do in dental school.

 

[armorshell]

Really? I didn't realize that being able to fill in bubbles with a mouse meant that you had good hand skills...maybe good hand-eye coordination.

Pretty sure they were being sarcastic.

 

[crazy4clana]

Couple of things here. First of all, Statistics 101, correlation does not equal causation. Just because a school has a track record of graduating a large number of specialists doesn't really say anything about why.

That's not true, at least for med schools where most people specialize and most tend to go to more expensive schools over cheaper public schools with lower board scores. There are schools that prepare students better which equals higher board scores and better specialty placements. Why do you think top high school students go to Harvard, Yale, ect.? Not saying that those schools are lesser quality or offer inferior education, but schools such as Penn would definately give you a more competitive edge.

 

[bluejellybelly]

I disagree... if a school doesn't have everybody wanting to specialize...then the school sucks. And by the way everybody knows that the DAT shows how good you are with your hands which means it shows all the people that will make good surgeons.

IS THIS PERSON SERIOUS??

What a joke... good one...

 

[rkamsterdam]

That's not true, at least for med schools where most people specialize and most tend to go to more expensive schools over cheaper public schools with lower board scores. There are schools that prepare students better which equals higher board scores and better specialty placements. Why do you think top high school students go to Harvard, Yale, ect.? Not saying that those schools are lesser quality or offer inferior education, but schools such as Penn would definately give you a more competitive edge.

The problem with medical school is the availability of published rankings like us news and world report. Dental schools avoid these rankings, so there is a good deal of parity in the disbursement of quality students among all dental schools.

Thus, residency depts dont discriminate applicants based on school attended like in medicine.

 

[armorshell]

That's not true, at least for med schools where most people specialize and most tend to go to more expensive schools over cheaper public schools with lower board scores. There are schools that prepare students better which equals higher board scores and better specialty placements. Why do you think top high school students go to Harvard, Yale, ect.? Not saying that those schools are lesser quality or offer inferior education, but schools such as Penn would definately give you a more competitive edge.

During summer in Florida every year, there's a sharp increase in ice cream sales and drowning deaths. Therefore I conclude that ice cream causes drownings, right?

You're right though, smart students who want to go into competitive specialties often end up at expensive, elite private schools. And, unsurprisingly, these incredibly motivated bright students score highly on the boards and get great matches. The school claims that they have superiority over specialization, and the cycle repeats itself. Note, that those same students would have likely achieved their goals at any other program as well, and it's not hard to find research that suggests the educational benefit of "superior schools" is much more closely linked to selection bias.

There's the all too human tendency to place things into boxes. For some reason, it's "common sense" that there have to be specialty schools and clinical schools, where in reality the education and quality between dental (or medical) schools is probably tight to the point where they're almost homogeneous.

A man is an island. We're born alone, we go through life alone, and we damn sure die alone. There is no person or institution in this world who is going to achieve your goals for you besides the one in the mirror.

Please, I ask you to prove me wrong though. I'd love to hear a logical argument I couldn't, at least in my own mind, refute.

 

[crazy4clana]

You're right though, smart students who want to go into competitive specialties often end up at expensive, elite private schools. And, unsurprisingly, these incredibly motivated bright students score highly on the boards and get great matches. The school claims that they have superiority over specialization, and the cycle repeats itself. Note, that those same students would have likely achieved their goals at any other program as well, and it's not hard to find research that suggests the educational benefit of "superior schools" is much more closely linked to selection bias.

Well of course it all depends on the student, no one is argueing that. I just meant that schools like Penn boast their specialty rate because they can and they provide a great dental education. If two people are competing for the same residency spot, both have the same board scores, gpa ect., are they going to pick the one from *insert name of some podunk school* or Penn? Yes all smart students can excel at any dental school, but they have better chances of securing a spot if they went to a better school.

 

[NewMexDent]

Well of course it all depends on the student, no one is argueing that. I just meant that schools like Penn boast their specialty rate because they can and they provide a great dental education. If two people are competing for the same residency spot, both have the same board scores, gpa ect., are they going to pick the one from the *insert name of some podunk school* or Penn? Yes all smart students can excel at any dental school, but they have better chances of securing a spot if they went to a better school.

I'd really like to know which dental school you consider to be a "podunk school".

If I was interested in specializing the last thing I'd want to do is be surrounded by my fiercest competitors. Also, if I was planning on specializing I'd be warry of attending an expensive school as that debt would only increase during a specialty residency.

You're telling me that if you have the same scores as I do but I went to a different school and you went to Penn that you deserve a spot more than me? No way.

 

[Regmata]

I don't know, but my guess is that if two students have the same gpa and board scores then the student that went to the better clinical school would get picked...All didactic aspects being equal, I want the dentist with the best hands, bedside manner and clinical abilities in my program...

 

[crazy4clana]

I'd really like to know which dental school you consider to be a "podunk school".

If I was interested in specializing the last thing I'd want to do is be surrounded by my fiercest competitors. Also, if I was planning on specializing I'd be warry of attending an expensive school as that debt would only increase during a specialty residency.

You're telling me that if you have the same scores as I do but I went to a different school and you went to Penn that you deserve a spot more than me? No way.

Simmer down there sparky, first of all, I didn't mean to insult you when I said "podunk." I was just refering to a school that doesn't have amazingly stellar stats, which is sort of nonexistant because all dental schools are competitive.

Anyway, yes students who went to a better school will probably get the spot if it was down to that. That's how it works unfortunately, this is the same thought process that says a 3.3 at Harvard correlates to a 4.0 at an easy school, get my drift homeslice?

 

[armorshell]

Well of course it all depends on the student, no one is argueing that. I just meant that schools like Penn boast their specialty rate because they can and they provide a great dental education. If two people are competing for the same residency spot, both have the same board scores, gpa ect., are they going to pick the one from *insert name of some podunk school* or Penn? Yes all smart students can excel at any dental school, but they have better chances of securing a spot if they went to a better school.

Explain by what process you imagine this decision would be made. If you have two identical students from two different schools, by all objective criteria they have had the same dental education.

Basically, why do you think a program director would make such a choice in favor of Penn over, as you called it, a "podunk" school.

 

[armorshell]

Simmer down there sparky, first of all, I didn't mean to insult you when I said "podunk." I was just refering to a school that doesn't have amazingly stellar stats, which is sort of nonexistant because all dental schools are competitive.

Anyway, yes students who went to a better school will probably get the spot if it was down to that. That's how it works unfortunately, this is the same thought process that says a 4.0 at an easy university correlates to a 3.3 at Harvard, get my drift homeslice?

I like the way you just repeat,ad nauseum something to the effect of "That's the way it works", giving any sort of thought process behind:

1. Why you believe "that's the way it works".
2. Any evidence that it is, in fact, "the way it works."

 

[crazy4clana]

As I said before, I don't know how it works with dental schools, they are not ranked and therefore are pointless in this dicussion but...I have spoken to admission officers about this and their thoughts on it, not exactly like this scenario but the "if I apply from this school will I have a better chance of acceptance than this person from that school" sort of deal. Also spoke to my advisor about this. All of my cousins are currently in med school/in the process of applying and they range from going to undergrad at Johns Hopkins to the U of Missouri. All I know is that it pertains to med school, for instance, my brother's school said that they admit a lot of people from California because the universities are better there. All of this is a moot point for dental though.

 

[rkamsterdam]

All of this is a moot point for dental though.

And he finally accepts defeat.

 

[armorshell]

As I said before, I don't know how it works with dental schools, they are not ranked and therefore are pointless in this dicussion but...I have spoken to admission officers about this and their thoughts on it, not exactly like this scenario but the "if I apply from this school will I have a better chance of acceptance than this person from that school" sort of deal. Also spoke to my advisor about this. All of my cousins are currently in med school/in the process of applying and they range from going to undergrad at Johns Hopkins to the U of Missouri. All I know is that it pertains to med school, for instance, my brother's school said that they admit a lot of people from California because the universities are better there. All of this is a moot point for dental though.

These don't sound like the words of someone who truly believes it's a "moot point":

I just meant that schools like Penn boast their specialty rate because they can and they provide a great dental education. If two people are competing for the same residency spot, both have the same board scores, gpa ect., are they going to pick the one from the *insert name of some podunk school* or Penn? Yes all smart students can excel at any dental school, but they have better chances of securing a spot if they went to a better school.

As far as admissions directors and undergrad advisers, I'd suggest you get your advice from the horse's mouth if you want it to be accurate. I asked the same question of program directors when I was applying, and by far the majority response I got was "Just do well on your boards and you'll be set."

 

[UCSFplayboy]

I just noticed things like UoP and UCSF having nearly identical academic averages over certain years (a difference of 0.1 two years ago). Yet, UCSF is known as a specialty school while UoP a GP. Penn's AA is 21, while UW is 21.2. Penn is specialty, while UW is ...untalked about.

Only Harvard, Columbia, and UCLA significantly overshadow the other schools and have higher specialty placement. But for at least some schools, there appears to be more going into the specialties while the quality of the students are nearly comparable. Whatever the reason - causation vs correlation or whatever - the distinction of Specialty vs GP appears to exist.

 

[stdmufin27]

I disagree... if a school doesn't have everybody wanting to specialize...then the school sucks. And by the way everybody knows that the DAT shows how good you are with your hands which means it shows all the people that will make good surgeons. They shouldn't even base it on how you do in dental school.

WHAT!!!! Everybody knows that the DAT shows how good you are with your hands?????? Good thing knowing how a certain reagent affects a cyclohexene makes for a more proficient dentist. Absolute CRAP! Oh and armorshell, perfect. Smart A people go to the smart A schools and eventually get picked into specialty programs because they want to be the smartest A's out there. But a dumb fool going to a "podunk" school can just as easily decide during his/her dental education that the specialty road is going to be taken and does everything necessary to place themselves right next to the smart A's in those specialty residencies.

 

[Regmata]

WHAT!!!! Everybody knows that the DAT shows how good you are with your hands?????? Good thing knowing how a certain reagent affects a cyclohexene makes a more proficient dentist. Absolute CRAP! Oh and armorshell, perfect. Smart A people go to the smart A schools and eventually get picked into specialty programs because they want to be the smartest A's out there. But a dumb fool going to a "podunk" school can just as easily decide during his/her dental education that the specialty road is going to be taken and does everything necessary to place themselves right next to the smart A's in those specialty residencies.

Absolute sarcasm...how well did you score on your RC section?

 

[armorshell]

I just noticed things like UoP and UCSF having nearly identical academic averages over certain years (a difference of 0.1 two years ago). Yet, UCSF is known as a specialty school while UoP a GP. Penn's AA is 21, while UW is 21.2. Penn is specialty, while UW is ...untalked about.

Only Harvard, Columbia, and UCLA significantly overshadow the other schools and have higher specialty placement. But for at least some schools, there appears to be more going into the specialties while the quality of the students are nearly comparable. Whatever the reason - causation vs correlation or whatever - the distinction of Specialty vs GP appears to exist.

Not really. Because a school graduates many GP's or many specialists does not make it a GP school or specialty school. See my above post about boxes.

 

[UCSFplayboy]

Not really. Because a school graduates many GP's or many specialists does not make it a GP school or specialty school. See my above post about boxes.

I understand the philosophy, but I don't think philosophy is the issue here. I am pointing to one simple statement.- regardless of the reason behind it, regardless of anything at all - that UCSF graduates a greater percentage of specialists than UoP and that Penn graduates a greater percentage of specialists than UW. Regardless of any and all emotions for or against it, regardless of any shread of reasoning behind it, do you agree that the statement in and of itself is accurate?

 

[stdmufin27]

Absolute sarcasm...how well did you score on your RC section?

21, and UCSF Playboy (nice name), look at what I said a couple posts up. Your connecting the two dots is correct but not the whole story or box like armorshell said.

 

[crazy4clana]

And he finally accepts defeat.

Actually, I am a SHE and I have said countless of times that I don't know how it works in dental school. I specifically said this is how it works for med schools and their specialty placement, so it's not a gigantic leap to assume that residency for dentists works the same way.

It is a moot point, I agreed that this strategy does work for med students applicants but not nessessarily for dental students. Your causation vs. correlation does not prove to be true was my initial point but got lost in the confusion. No offence, but the people who are throwing fits over my "podunk" dental schools are probably the ones who go there. If you're in dental school, awesome, be happy and work hard to prove this theory wrong.

And BTW, I am not putting any school down. I myself really want to go to my state school if I get in over other pricey schools that can probably get me the same spot for specialization.

 

[armorshell]

I understand the philosophy, but I don't think philosophy is the issue here. I am pointing to one simple statement.- regardless of the reason behind it, regardless of anything at all - that UCSF graduates a greater percentage of specialists than UoP and that Penn graduates a greater percentage of specialists than UW. Regardless of any and all emotions for or against it, regardless of any shread of reasoning behind it, do you agree that the statement in and of itself is accurate?

How could anyone not? While we're on plainly obvious things, it rained yesterday. I doubt you would post something as commonly known as the specialty rates of schools without some sort of underlying message or motivation though, so what is it?

 

[NewMexDent]

Actually, I am a SHE and I have said countless of times that I don't know how it works in dental school. I specifically said this is how it works for med schools and their specialty placement, so it's not a gigantic leap to assume that residency for dentists works the same way.

It is a moot point, I agreed that this strategy does work for med students applicants but not nessessarily for dental students. Your causation vs. correlation does not prove to be true was my initial point but got lost in the confusion. No offence, but the people who are throwing fits over my "podunk" dental schools are probably the ones who go there. If you're in dental school, awesome, be happy and work hard to prove this theory wrong.

I still don't understand what you consider to be a "podunk" dental school. But, it doesn't matter. The kind of people that put so much stock in a schools name and that label other schools as "podunk" are the type of people that would make me not want to attend such schools.

 

[UCSFplayboy]

How could anyone not? While we're on plainly obvious things, it rained yesterday. I doubt you would post something as commonly known as the specialty rates of schools without some sort of underlying message or motivation though, so what is it?

I am suggesting that scenario of specialty vs GP is complex, and no one could possibly come up with a reason to properly explain it. Lots of people will say that a person can succeed regardless of where they go. It sounds so intuitive that they accept it, but they may not consider an alternative possibility: maybe they're wrong. I won't go into a debate on this, but I'll leave it as a simple statement: some schools with virtually comparable students produce more specialists. I'll let each applicant decide for themselves whether the school they go to actually matters.

 

[NewMexDent]

I am suggesting that scenario of specialty vs GP is complex, and no one could possibly come up with a reason to properly explain it. Lots of people will say that a person can succeed regardless of where they go. It sounds so intuitive that they accept it, but they may not consider an alternative possibility: maybe they're wrong. I won't go into a debate on this, but I'll leave it as a simple statement: some schools with virtually comparable students produce more specialists. I'll let each applicant decide for themselves whether the school they go to actually matters.

Schools don't produce specialists. Students choose to pursue dentistry regardless of their school. A more appropriate analysis of the statistics is that some schools have more students that pursue specialties than others.

It would be interesting to take a look at the accepted:applied ratio at specific schools - I bet it would be about the same.

 

[UCSFplayboy]

Schools don't produce specialists. Students choose to pursue dentistry regardless of their school. A more appropriate analysis of the statistics is that some schools have more students that pursue specialties than others.

It would be interesting to take a look at the accepted:applied ratio at specific schools - I bet it would be about the same.

Okay. I'll refine my wording. Some schools with virtually identical student quality graduate more specialists.

 

[absolutely]

Specialty issue aside..... It seems to me like many people are of the opinion that all dental school are of equal quality, but just different in certain ways. Is it possible that there are actually some schools that are academically and clinically better than others?

Sorry if that is off the topic of the thread

 

[armorshell]

Okay. I'll refine my wording. Some schools with virtually identical student quality graduate more specialists.

I said it long ago, but I'll repeat it: You're making a seriously faulty assumption that every dental student is seeking specialty training, which is just flat out not the case.

Yes, there's a possibility that my opinion could be wrong, and I eagerly await the day I see evidence that bears that out. But you seem to be content with a "proof" consisting of a single observation and then speculation with no sort of evidence.

 

[armorshell]

It would be interesting to take a look at the accepted:applied ratio at specific schools - I bet it would be about the same.

👍

 

[armorshell]

Specialty issue aside..... It seems to me like many people are of the opinion that all dental school are of equal quality, but just different in certain ways. Is it possible that there are actually some schools that are academically and clinically better than others?

Probably, but it's all a matter of degree. The range of quality in dental and medical education is so tight, were they ranked, the #1 and number #25 dental school would probably be almost functionally identical.

 

[UCSFplayboy]

I said it long ago, but I'll repeat it: You're making a seriously faulty assumption that every dental student is seeking specialty training, which is just flat out not the case.

Yes, there's a possibility that my opinion could be wrong, and I eagerly await the day I see evidence that bears that out. But you seem to be content with a "proof" consisting of a single observation and then speculation with no sort of evidence.

I am not trying to provide an explanation of any sort. I'm simply making an observation. The number of students applying each year is one possible explanation for the observation, and whether that's accurate is up to each applicant to decide.

I am only trying to simplify this down to a single statement almost everyone can agree on. Some schools with virtually identical student quality graduate more specialists. It's up to everyone else to identify their own stance on the Specialty vs GP issue.

 

[TubaFish]

It would be interesting to take a look at the accepted:applied ratio at specific schools - I bet it would be about the same.

I tried to look up Stats like this for a few schools I will be applying to, but many include GPR and AEGD programs in their specialty placement statistics ( which are specialties but just not among those typically considered competitive residencies). Anyways, because of these the specialty percentages can be skewed pretty heavily (ex. most schools report 80-90% or higher).

 

[armorshell]

I am not trying to provide an explanation of any sort. I'm simply making an observation. The number of students applying each year is one possible explanation for the observation, and whether that's accurate is up to each applicant to decide.

I am only trying to simplify this down to a single statement almost everyone can agree on. Some schools with virtually identical student quality graduate more specialists. It's up to everyone else to identify their own stance on the Specialty vs GP issue.

Feel free to tell people whatever you want; its a free country, the constitution is still in force last time I checked, and this is an open board.

At the same time, I'll exercise my rights, and provide an simple and empirically true explanation for your pointless and purposefully vague statement. 👍

 

[crazy4clana]

I still don't understand what you consider to be a "podunk" dental school. But, it doesn't matter. The kind of people that put so much stock in a schools name and that label other schools as "podunk" are the type of people that would make me not want to attend such schools.

Well it's good that you don't then huh? 😛

Really? It's not that complicated, a public school, most of the time in the middle of nowhere and usually has low stats and easy enrollment. I use podunk to refer to schools that are not "top tier." How about instead of focusing on semantics, you listen to the arguement at hand. I am not putting any stock in the school's name! It's a FACT that these schools produce more specialists and have higher board averages. You are trying to refute something that is already proven correct and are going off in tangents. I have given my opinion on the subject, that's just what I know from previous experiences. Do I agree with it? No, but that doesn't make it anyless untrue. 🙄

 

[gogiantsss]

I dont seem to know of any dental school in this country that produces exclusively GPs or exclusively specialists. Having said that, we cannot discount the fact that some schools provide stronger didactic curriculum that gear students towards higher board scores. And if logic dictates, higher board scores give you a better chance of specializing, then YES, there are indeed your so called "specialty schools".

Having said that, I agree with armorshell completely that this does not take into account personal considerations like self motivation etc. I realize that not everyone wants to specialize but i get the impression that the majority of people out there is at least willing to entertain that possibility.

But to put all of the weight on the student may be slightly premature. There are certainly external factors that gives students a better chance (could be an infinitesimal percentage) to specialize.

Armorshell, I respect your opinion greatly but sometimes you seem to stymie opposing arguments by dominating a conversation. And it doesnt make complete sense to me to have a "what I say is right so prove me wrong" attitude.

 

[TerpFan]

It's not that complicated, a public school, most of the time in the middle of nowhere and usually has low stats and easy enrollment.

Care to name some schools that fit all the things you just mentioned as qualities of a "podunk" school? 🙄

 

[armorshell]

Well it's good that you don't then huh? 😛

Really? It's not that complicated, a public school, most of the time in the middle of nowhere and usually has low stats and easy enrollment. I use podunk to refer to schools that are not "top tier." How about instead of focusing on semantics, you listen to the arguement at hand. I am not putting any stock in the school's name! It's a FACT that these schools produce more specialists and have higher board averages. You are trying to refute something that is already proven correct and are going off in tangents. I have given my opinion on the subject, that's just what I know from previous experiences. Do I agree with it? No, but that doesn't make it anyless untrue. 🙄

You said it yourself: It's a FACT that schools with high admissions standards have high boards scores. Is that really that big of a surprise to you? There's no indication to me that the specialty placements of top tier schools have anything to do with the schools themselves, and in FACT have everything to do with the students.

 

[armorshell]

Armorshell, I respect your opinion greatly but sometimes you seem to stymie opposing arguments by dominating a conversation.

I don't see why this is a problem. If someone who holds an opposing viewpoint can't defend their position from all sides, then it doesn't hold much water. And I've always heard the best defense is a good offense.

And it doesnt make complete sense to me to have a "what I say is right so prove me wrong" attitude.

The OP seems, in this case, to be reluctant to do anything besides laud what I believe to be a misleading blanket statement, so in this case I issued him that challenge. I don't honestly believe I'm infallible, and my opinion on the issue evolves constantly as I gather new information. It's also impossible for anyone to find "right" on this issue, as it's really too complex to warrant such a simple answer. I must say though, I personally don't see the bad in defending my opinions. Without argument like this, it would be impossible to stimulate new thought and ideas on the issue.

 

[crazy4clana]

You said it yourself: It's a FACT that schools with high admissions standards have high boards scores. Is that really that big of a surprise to you? There's no indication to me that the specialty placements of top tier schools have anything to do with the schools themselves, and in FACT have everything to do with the students.

They have high specialty rates because they produce them through their cirriculum! Again, why do you think parents send their kids to public high schools and then to schools like Harvard and Princeton? Because they have a higher chance in succeeding in the future whatever their endeavors. Again, I gave you an example of a med school who admits a lot of applicants from California because they came from good schools, but again you negate the fact because it doesn't fit with your opinion, which by the way you failed to produce any evidence to support it. Placing all of the credit on the student is BS in my opinion, students become who they are from their teachers and quality of their education. Your basing your entire arguement on your own personal opinions which renders it invalid.

 

[armorshell]

They have high specialty rates because they produce them through their cirriculum! Again, why do you think parents send their kids to public high schools and then to schools like Harvard and Princeton? Because they have a higher chance in succeeding in the future whatever their endeavors. Again, I gave you an example of a med school who admits a lot of applicants from California because they came from good schools, but again you negate the fact because it doesn't fit with your opinion, which by the way you failed to produce any evidence to support it. Placing all of the credit on the student is BS in my opinion, students become who they are from their teachers and quality of their education. Your basing your entire arguement on your own personal opinions which renders it invalid.

At least I manage to base my argument on MY opinion, which has a logical basis. Your opinion is based upon the opinions of some random medical school personnel, completely unaffiliated with dentistry as you mentioned above, and the opinions of "parents who send their kids to Harvard." They've got a name for that kind of thought, and it's called a bandwagon fallacy. Just because all the cool kids are doing it, doesn't make it true, and to me nothing says "I'm serious" like a by definition fallacious, second-hand opinion.

Evidence? Funny you mention parents sending their children to private schools to give them a better chance to succeed in life, because I happen to have a few studies that directly refute that notion and managed, by happenstance, to eliminate ethically almost all systemic bias that could occur in such a study:
Cullen, Brian Jacob, and Steven D. Levitt, "The Impact of School Choice on
Student Outcomes: An Analysis of the Chicago Public Schools." Journal of
Public Economics, 2000

Julie Berry Cullen, Brian Jacob, and Steven D. Levitt, "The Effect of School Choice on Student Outcomes: Evidence from Randomized Lotteries," National Bureau of Economic Research, 2003

Feel free to believe that I form my opinions and then mold facts to fit them, but I can assure you it's just not true. I have ideas, not beliefs, as Chris Rock would say.

 

[UCSFplayboy]

The question of whether a certain school tends to favor specializing is problematic because there is a shortage of verifiable facts. Ideas like fewer applicants apply, students who prefer 3-year programs also have a preferance for general practice, and some schools have curriculum geared for specializing are largley opinions, as there are no available published information to confirm any of those ideas. If formulating the idea "Some schools with virtually equal quality of students graduate more specialists," I tried my best to use only what are known to be facts, leaving out all information that's close to opinion.

There is this popular stance that **any particular student has the same chance of specializing coming from any school.** Now, I consider some statistics: according to the latest published data, UoP has an AA of 20.5, while UCSF has an average AA of 20.6. I'm taking this to mean that the two schools have virtually comparable students. Yet, UCSF is popularly acknowledged to graduate many more specialists. Also, UW's AA is 0.22 points higher than that of Penn. Yet, Penn is popularly recognized as graduating more specialists. If anything at all, this information seems to indicate that any particular student may have an advantage of specializing coming from certain schools.

(I exclude from consideration Harvard, UCLA, and Columbia, since their AA is significantly higher than average. The argument "they have better students, so more specialize" is all too obvious. I could also use Maryland, Loma Linda, Uconn, BU, and USC, as they all have an AA of 20. But no one really knows their specialty rate.)

Published data seems to indicate that, in some cases, a person may have a greater chances of specializing coming from certain school. Arguments to the contrary seem to be backed up by a string of unverifyable opinions (Not all people want to specialize. People go to the cheapest schools possible. I know somebody super smart but have an aversion to specializing).

That's what the data suggests to me. However, I back up and leave the argument simple, in a way most people would agree with, avoiding trying to fill in the gaps with possible reasons why this observation exists. Some schools with virtually comparable quality students graduate more specialists.