spine fellowship - open position

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First of all I am a fellowship trained anesthesia pain doc, doing 100% pain.
Now that that is established,

1. I think pain (which really is >75% Spine anyway) has very little to do with anesthesia. Of course it helped doing a thousand blind epidurals and spinals before starting fellowship. Just as PM&R folks may have initially a better understanding of spinal motion preservation, rehab, etc etc. But PM&R folks aren't as handy with procedures right outa the gate as gasdocs are. None of this is a secret or taboo, just the facts.
2. Let's face it the two big players are Anesthesia and Physiatry.
3. Nobody starting Interventional pain kicks A$$ in EVERYTHING from word go, IT ALL CAN BE TAUGHT/LEARNED, none of it is beyond any of us.

BOTTOM LINE:

WE NEED EACH OTHER TO PROVIDE THE BEST TRAINING JOINTLY TO SAVE OUR COLLECTIVE A$$ES FOR THE FUTURE OF OUR SPECIALTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SO LETS JOIN FORCES AND ARGUE WITH THE DAMN SURGEONS AS WHO SHOULD REALLY BE THE PATIENTS FIRST "point of care" PHYSICIAN THAT THEY WILL ENCOUNTER IF THEY HAVE back, neck pain etc.

Most people get better on their own, we all now that. ESI's buys patience and time till **** heals. Not saying there are not surgical candidates out there, but none of this I am 25 y/o aerobics instructor who had some axial LBP for a couple months, so surgeon fused me x2 and now i got chronic LBP bullsh*t, then we get these train wrecks. THATS THE TRUE CRIME. Compare rates of back surgeries around the nation and the world, it's way outa wack. A WELL TRAINED SPINE/PAIN doc or whatever you wanna call the likes of us can make most calls as who is a decent surgical candidate and when that time should be.

I say let's bring Pain/Spine to a whole new level, forget the ASA, AMA, OR PM&R equivalent and team up as COLLEAGUES for the greater good. Not as I am Anesthesia and you are PM&R, but together as Pain/Spine docs. A single collective unit. Have one board, its own residency, etc. etc.

How bad does it look from another docs or patients point of view when there are god knows how many fellowships,boards, and blah blah blah. There are not three Interventional cardiology boards?

Its a very complicated issue I know, that will not and can not be solved easily.

But lets make some baby steps in the right direction.

Whose with me?
 
Well, I was recently browsing through the American Pain Society's newsletter which details the new ACGME program training requirements. It's a good read:

http://www.ampainsoc.org/pub/bulletin/fall07/training.htm


Interesting article.

and more than a little disingenous.


Don't the terms "Pain Medicine" and "Sub-Specialty" used throughout the article contradict one-another.


I think I saw the phrase "equal access" in there as well.:laugh:


If Dr. Rathmell is so concerned with the field having high standards and garnering more respect, then why didn't he push for a pain residency. After all, as he states, there was an ABPM advisory member on the ACGME revision commitee.
 
First of all I am a fellowship trained anesthesia pain doc, doing 100% pain.
Now that that is established,

1. I think pain (which really is >75% Spine anyway) has very little to do with anesthesia. Of course it helped doing a thousand blind epidurals and spinals before starting fellowship. Just as PM&R folks may have initially a better understanding of spinal motion preservation, rehab, etc etc. But PM&R folks aren't as handy with procedures right outa the gate as gasdocs are. None of this is a secret or taboo, just the facts.
2. Let's face it the two big players are Anesthesia and Physiatry.
3. Nobody starting Interventional pain kicks A$$ in EVERYTHING from word go, IT ALL CAN BE TAUGHT/LEARNED, none of it is beyond any of us.

BOTTOM LINE:

WE NEED EACH OTHER TO PROVIDE THE BEST TRAINING JOINTLY TO SAVE OUR COLLECTIVE A$$ES FOR THE FUTURE OF OUR SPECIALTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SO LETS JOIN FORCES AND ARGUE WITH THE DAMN SURGEONS AS WHO SHOULD REALLY BE THE PATIENTS FIRST "point of care" PHYSICIAN THAT THEY WILL ENCOUNTER IF THEY HAVE back, neck pain etc.

Most people get better on their own, we all now that. ESI's buys patience and time till **** heals. Not saying there are not surgical candidates out there, but none of this I am 25 y/o aerobics instructor who had some axial LBP for a couple months, so surgeon fused me x2 and now i got chronic LBP bullsh*t, then we get these train wrecks. THATS THE TRUE CRIME. Compare rates of back surgeries around the nation and the world, it's way outa wack. A WELL TRAINED SPINE/PAIN doc or whatever you wanna call the likes of us can make most calls as who is a decent surgical candidate and when that time should be.

I say let's bring Pain/Spine to a whole new level, forget the ASA, AMA, OR PM&R equivalent and team up as COLLEAGUES for the greater good. Not as I am Anesthesia and you are PM&R, but together as Pain/Spine docs. A single collective unit. Have one board, its own residency, etc. etc.

How bad does it look from another docs or patients point of view when there are god knows how many fellowships,boards, and blah blah blah. There are not three Interventional cardiology boards?

Its a very complicated issue I know, that will not and can not be solved easily.

But lets make some baby steps in the right direction.

Whose with me?

Hallelujah!
 
I am a full time academic pain physician (PM&R) not fellowship trained. What I find at this juncture in my career that I cannot move. I am overly busy here. But no one wants to hire me to relocate due to the lack of ACGME fellowship. The writing is on the wall for the future.
 
I am a full time academic pain physician (PM&R) not fellowship trained. What I find at this juncture in my career that I cannot move. I am overly busy here. But no one wants to hire me to relocate due to the lack of ACGME fellowship. The writing is on the wall for the future.


Just curious -- Do you find that you are limited for the fact of not having an ACGME fellowship or because of the lack of fellowship regardless of accredidation?
 
I am a full time academic pain physician (PM&R) not fellowship trained. What I find at this juncture in my career that I cannot move. I am overly busy here. But no one wants to hire me to relocate due to the lack of ACGME fellowship. The writing is on the wall for the future.

I'm very sorry to hear that murphles. I wish you the best. 😳
 
I am a full time academic pain physician (PM&R) not fellowship trained. What I find at this juncture in my career that I cannot move. I am overly busy here. But no one wants to hire me to relocate due to the lack of ACGME fellowship. The writing is on the wall for the future.

i live in a major metroploitan area. A rival group just hired a pain physician to a big salary and he is not fellowship trained.

I also know of another pain group who hired a non fellowship trained physician in dallas.

it does happen. we are looking to hire. others here in my group value personality and the ability to work with others. they are not fully focussed on just AGME this, board certified that. of course it plays a part but its more than just that.
 
this is complicated.

UCLA has the primary program for pain with the anesthesia department. UCLA DOES NOT HAVE A PMR DEPARTMENT. The program for PMR is at the WLA VA. The PMR pain program is based at the WLA VA and thus a SEPARATE institution. Since a major rotation is at UCLA and the VA has mandated a cooperation around the country with academic programs, the PMR department gets away with its program by being affiliated with UCLA, but not by being IN UCLA.
 
this is complicated.

UCLA has the primary program for pain with the anesthesia department. UCLA DOES NOT HAVE A PMR DEPARTMENT. The program for PMR is at the WLA VA. The PMR pain program is based at the WLA VA and thus a SEPARATE institution. Since a major rotation is at UCLA and the VA has mandated a cooperation around the country with academic programs, the PMR department gets away with its program by being affiliated with UCLA, but not by being IN UCLA.
Theoretically, could an the fellowship alone be based out of the VA (with the PM&R Dept at the academic institution (e.g. Northwestern, Stanford, etc)? Or does the underlying PM&R residency have to be VA-based, in order to have it count as a separate institution?
 
this is complicated.

UCLA has the primary program for pain with the anesthesia department. UCLA DOES NOT HAVE A PMR DEPARTMENT. The program for PMR is at the WLA VA. The PMR pain program is based at the WLA VA and thus a SEPARATE institution. Since a major rotation is at UCLA and the VA has mandated a cooperation around the country with academic programs, the PMR department gets away with its program by being affiliated with UCLA, but not by being IN UCLA.

Thanks! I've been wondering how this worked for a while now...
 
Well, I was recently browsing through the American Pain Society's newsletter which details the new ACGME program training requirements. It's a good read:

http://www.ampainsoc.org/pub/bulletin/fall07/training.htm

Some interesting observations beginning with the very first sentence:

Until the advent of formal training programs in pain medicine 15 years ago, training in pain medicine was carried out through informal fellowships under the tutelage of self-trained experts, such as John J. Bonica, who developed the field (Rathmell & Brown, 2002).

Bonica developed the field? Single-handedly???

Bonica was indeed a major figure in pain medicine. But at the same time John Bonica was working, practicing, and laying the ground-work for multidisciplinary pain clinics across the country, a whole cadre of physiatrists were also at work diagnosing, treating, and rehabilitating people with persistent painful injuries. Many of the basic components of the multidisciplinary pain clinics and training model that Dr. Bonica espoused were straight out physiatric clinics that Dr. Bonica visited and was exposed to during his training in New York City and during his service in the US Army.

In fact, within medicine, the development of a multidisciplinary specialty centered on the diagnosis, treatment and rehabilitation of people with painful and disabling conditions predates Bonica by at least a couple of decades and begins with Howard Rusk, Frank Krusen, and Henry Betts. Now, this article is not meant to be a history lesson in pain medicine, but it seems to ignore some very important contributions by non-anesthesiologist pain practitioners toward developing the field of multidisciplinary pain medicine. Their story starts with Bonica. The problem is that these earlier practitioners did not think of themselves as "pain specialists." They took a broader view of what they did and were called physiatrists.

The article then moves to review the history of the development of the ACGME guidelines for subspecialty training in pain medicine. At the conclusion of this historical analysis, the authors frame the central question for training in this field, "the question to consider was, 'How could training pain medicine specialists be improved to eliminate the tremendous lack of consistency in what is offered from one pain subspecialty clinic to another?'"

Fundamentally, this is a question of standards.

The article then moves to recap some recent events within the last two to four years familiar to many posters on PainRounds. In fact, some of them were involved in the process. It would be interesting to hear from them, if, from their perspectives, the authors got the story right.

The new proposed standards that emerged are now currently the ones under which ACGME-accredited pain fellowship programs function:

Changes Established by 2007 ACGME Program Requirements for Fellowship Training in Pain Medicine (ACGME, 2007)

Only one ACGME accredited Pain Medicine fellowship program will be approved per institution.

The required didactic curriculum has been completely revised to incorporate the IASP Core Curriculum for Professional Education in Pain as the core of the curriculum.

All trainees will be required to gain verified exposure to all four parent specialties: anesthesiology, PM&R, neurology, and psychiatry, through defined clinical rotations with minimal documented clinical experience in each discipline.

While all programs will be required to expose trainees to the range of interventional pain modalities available for pain treatment, a subset of programs may offer expanded training in interventional pain medicine through an established "Advanced Interventional Track." Suggested features of this track include the following:

An expanded didactic curriculum on interventional pain medicine

Minimum suggested numbers of interventional procedures for each trainee

A requirement that program directors complete a final summary letter detailing

The specific interventions with which each trainee has demonstrated competence.


One of the most important changes is the development of the Advanced Interventional Track for selected pain fellowships. It seems to be that the purpose is to delineate between programs that offer EXPOSURE to various interventional pain treatments versus those that offer PROFICIENCY. I think it remains to be seen how this change will be implemented. It seems to suggest that some pain fellowships will have the track and others won't. For those that do, perhaps there will be 2 non-advanced slots and 1 advanced slot? Perhaps there will be some competition among fellows completing the standard 12 month fellowship for the additional 6-12 months of advanced interventional training? I don't know...

Still, according to the authors, the real benefit of this is for hospital credentialing, "This new requirement should serve as an invaluable aid to hospital credentialing committees as they grapple with credentialing new physicians (Lubenow & Rathmell, 2005)"

While this reform process has been nominally multidisciplinary, it has been largely *driven* by academic anesthiology-trained pain practitioners in tertiary care settings. This is laudable as I doubt that physiatry-trained pain practitioners would have had the clout to get around to the question of standards any time soon and carry the process foward on their own. It does, however, reveal a bias. How could it not?

At the very least, I think that bias could be summarized and restated as, "The standard for training in multidisciplinary pain medicine should be that the trainee trains in an academic anesthesiology department (in fact is preferably an anesthesiologist though mechanisms will allow for the consideration of others) in a tertiary-care medical center." It's not necessarily a bad bias, but certainly different from the direction in which many physiatric post-residency fellowship training opportunities have gone.

These opportunities have developed into "Interventional Spine" fellowships. These fellowships tend to be non-academic or private practice based, physiatric-based, and single-specialty and see an overlapping population of patients seen in traditional pain clinics. Setting aside the question of the merits of IS as a distinct sub-specialty compared to pain medicine, :beat: I wonder what will be the future of IS given the biases outlined above? Moreover, it seems to me that organized physiatry has almost completely surrendered its claim to the history of pain medicine and has chosen to invest in the interventional MSK/Spine training model almost exclusively. I think that ampaphb keeps track of the latest number of ACGME-accredited versus non-accredited PM&R fellowship numbers and can quote them off the top of his head!

Only time will tell if this gamble pays off for physiatry. But as defphiche, drrinnoo, lobelsteve and others can tell you, I think it has some pretty steep political costs associated with it.

I agree that there are deep Physiatric roots in the multidisciplinary approach to pain management, and that we may have forgotten these roots. However, as of 2008, if you eliminate all the Physiatrists working for Ortho-spine or Neurosurg groups, and all those that choose not to prescribe opiates, how many Physiatrists does that leave practicing "Pain Medicine"?

Not many.

When the PM&R RRC representatives were discussing the pain fellowship revisions, it is my assumption that the above probably went through their heads at some point.

You're right about the issue revolving around "standards". In many areas of medicine there is considerable overlap e.g. Interventional Radiology/Interventional Cards and every other specialty, Ortho-spine/Neurosurg, Plastics/ENT, PMR/Neurology. We don't say IR is really Interventional Cardiology, or vice-versa, with sub-standard training/limited knowledge. We call it what it is. On the other hand, both IR and Cardiology have training that is standardized and certifiable, which I think are key words here.

In a recent guest editorial in the December 2007 issue of Pain Medicine News (not sure which pain organization sends this to me), ASIPP president Andrea Trescot, M.D. takes issue with criticism leveled by Dr. Rathmell on the idea of Interventional Pain Management/Medicine as opposed to comprehensive Pain Medicine. In the editorial, she makes specific use of the examples of Cardiology/Interventional Cardiology and Radiology/Interventional Radiology to support her argument. Sounds similar to the Interventional Spine argument doesn't it?

Back to the issue of standards. Both you and I have likely observed or worked with musculoskeletal Physiatrists who possess no or limited interventional skills but have a base of knowledge/skills plenty deep to describe specialties of musculoskeletal medicine or Interventional Spine (whatever you want to call it). Physiatry has a tough time making this argument, however, because it has not developed its own certification or stringent enough residency training standards to encompass this type of practice. How many Joel Press or Heidi Prather types are out there? Probably less than 1% of practicing Physiatrists. The change is just too slow for most I guess.

At this particular point in time, the only viable option I see is to accept the chosen path and try to make it successful. It is unlikely that the majority of existing PM&R residency programs would be able to incorporate standardized interventional training. There would be all sorts of excuses made by individual programs, and it would be bad for the specialty to start shutting down non-compliant programs, of which there would be many. We do know that the better programs provide good MSK/spine/sports training and incorporate interventional training, and do a decent job of it. So why not create a certification pathway allowing one to obtain CAQ in procedures (last I heard a CAQ was under ABPMR consideration) through residency or post-residency training (dual pathways)?

This would put the onus to improve/evolve on the individual programs, because the best applicants would choose the programs with the best training. Residents unsatisfied with their training experiences would try to transfer. Poor programs would feel the sting, and not the ABPMR. One pathway would be a year longer, but either way, the same standard would be met regarding procedural proficiency and patient safety.

Credentialing would no longer be an issue, and neither would the typical semantics/scope of practice arguments that surround specialties utilizing spinal injections and other procedures.
 
I too have heard about the CAQ- how long do oyu think it will take to get this in action and more importantly accepted? How would one verfiy their skills as being "competent" in these specific techniques? Maybe something like the BOTOX - elvis???
As someone considering a pain fellowship this can be soooo confusing trying to tease out the accredidation argument and programs the offer a good education but no accreditation? And then the CAQ?
 
I too have heard about the CAQ- how long do oyu think it will take to get this in action and more importantly accepted? How would one verfiy their skills as being "competent" in these specific techniques? Maybe something like the BOTOX - elvis???
As someone considering a pain fellowship this can be soooo confusing trying to tease out the accredidation argument and programs the offer a good education but no accreditation? And then the CAQ?


I can guarantee you that this will never happen.
 
I am a full time academic pain physician (PM&R) not fellowship trained. What I find at this juncture in my career that I cannot move. I am overly busy here. But no one wants to hire me to relocate due to the lack of ACGME fellowship. The writing is on the wall for the future.

Come to Canada... Much better here anyway. Pick a city and/or join a practice.🙂
 
Come to Canada... Much better here anyway. Pick a city and/or join a practice.🙂

I know this has been brought up before, but the responses have been limited.
Interested in Pain fellowship under anesthesia and was wondering which anesthesia pain programs, have regularly accepted PMR residents. Any help would be appreciated, whether word of mouth or actual former/current fellows. thanks
 
I should be more clear here. Nobody wants to hire me for the job I want....academic/program development/clinical. That's OK-I'll just hunker down for the time being and reinvent this world.

Honestly, I think that it is time for PM&R to stop fighting and start focusing on our own specialty. We do amazing things in our specialty and we need to stop apologizing for what we are not and to fully embrace what we are-the best neuromusculoskeletal physicians focused on function. Well, geez, how cool is that!

😍
 
I should be more clear here. Nobody wants to hire me for the job I want....academic/program development/clinical.

Hmmm... That's clears things up a bit.

If that's the case, why not approach a PM&R dept about starting a spine center or adding an interventional component to their program? I am sure alot of programs would love to have someone with your experience come in and train their residents.
 
I should be more clear here. Nobody wants to hire me for the job I want....academic/program development/clinical. That's OK-I'll just hunker down for the time being and reinvent this world.

If you can bring all that to the table, *AND* work for a generalist physiatrist academic salary, department chairs will be drooling all over you...

Go to the AAP Meeting and start shaking hands. Or, put your own advert in their bulletin advertising what kind of job you want.
 
"I think that ampaphb keeps track of the latest number of ACGME-accredited versus non-accredited PM&R fellowship numbers and can quote them off the top of his head! "

Hey could I have that number!

I am part of a PM&R department and they are clueless. Oh, My! I love my field and practice but I wonder about our leadership.....

We were looking at an ACGME pain fellowship (my pain practice is mulitdisciplinary if not always interdisciplinary). My evil plan is to develop a musculoskeletal and spine fellowship. I don't know yet if I can pull it off. I can't remember who said it here but pain is not mostly spine. It is all over. Some interventionalists just have focused on the spine. We need to reclaim physical medicine and not just the pain symtom.

My folks don't just have spine pain. They also have shoulder, hip, and DPN... I find it encumbant on me that I treat this.

But I really do not feel that it is horrible that individuals break off what aspect of pain on which they wish to focus. Headache patients make me crazy!

Our goal was to return to my husband's home town which is a western city. No PM&R department. But there is a medical school and large hospital. Oh, well.
 
Could someone please define for me what constitutes an INSTITUTION? The plain language of the word would indicate that places like Harvard and UCLA would qualify as an institution, and thus only be able to maintain one fellowship, but in fact, both have more than that, and so clearly the word has a different meaning.

That being the case, I wonder why other "institutions" have not taken advantage of the same apparent loophole.

Harvard Medical School's affiliated hospitals sponsor their own residency programs. Hence, if you wished to apply for internal medicine, you could choose from BWH, BIDMC, MGH, MAH, etc. They are all teaching affilaites of Harvard Medical School. Sometimes there is collaboration as in HAREM, the Harvard Affiliated Residency in Emergency Medicine, which is a Partners collaboration (ie MGH/BWH).
 
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