SSRIs and med school

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starbuk007

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Is it just my school or does it seem like they give this stuff out like candy. This seems to be the preferred method of helping students to cope with the **** that is med school.

Ive heard that 60% of my class is on this junk which at first was kind of 😱. Complain of some SIGECAP symptoms and walk away with a mental pickmeup :laugh:
 
society gives 'em out like candy.

You can get adderall if you just tell your PCP that you've stopped smoking pot for med school and now you have no attention span.

Or, you can get a CT scan if you go to the ER and say you are having the worst headache of your life. Or, if you are female, you can get a pregnancy test just by walking near the entrance to the ER.
 
You can get adderall if you just tell your PCP that you've stopped smoking pot for med school and now you have no attention span.

Or, if you are female, you can get a pregnancy test just by walking near the entrance to the ER.

:laugh::laugh:
 
Is it just my school or does it seem like they give this stuff out like candy. This seems to be the preferred method of helping students to cope with the **** that is med school.

Ive heard that 60% of my class is on this junk which at first was kind of 😱. Complain of some SIGECAP symptoms and walk away with a mental pickmeup :laugh:

Rule Number 1: Don't believe everything that you hear.

Suggestion: Do a poll and get actual evidence. You could ask for a show of hands.

Conclusion: Be glad you don't have to take anything to "cope" with medical school.
 
It's a Brave New World....now shut up, take your pill, and be happy.
 
Is it just my school or does it seem like they give this stuff out like candy. This seems to be the preferred method of helping students to cope with the **** that is med school.

Ive heard that 60% of my class is on this junk which at first was kind of 😱. Complain of some SIGECAP symptoms and walk away with a mental pickmeup :laugh:
I'm surprised that no one has pulled your chain yet, so I will. When I was in my first semester of medical school (at the age of 45), an old panic disorder that I hadn't had trouble with since my 20's came back with a roar. And, no, I was not some "sissy" who ran to mommy for a "happy pill" - I toughed it out as long as I could - I lost 30-something pounds in about six weeks and used to keep both a fan and a jacket at my desk at home because I could alternate cold chills and sweats two or three times in an hour. And, you know what? I kept working and I kept a 4.0.

But when I knew I was coming apart at the seams, I went for some help. I wasn't really excited about SSRI's - been there, done that, limited results. But, venlafaxine - an SNRI - got me back on my feet in about 2 weeks. I put weight back on, was able to sleep, and was able to concentrate on my studies. I wasn't "happy", buddy, I was back to normal. I had a condition that needed treatment.

I no longer take venlafaxine. I decided that I wanted to get back off of it before third-year rotations, and I did. I'm doing fine.

As a student, I don't expect you to have a lot of experience in the proper use of anti-depressant drugs - and I admit they can be abused. I do expect you to have a little more compassion and humility before you go off on things you don't understand a damn thing about. Those meds saved my life - for a time-limited period. Your future patients who may truly be in need of help for a legitimate medical condition deserve a better attitude from you. The stress of medical school can derange the neurotransmitter balance of anyone who happens to be susceptible - and there are a lot of us, I know, who were deeply offended by such a callous post.
 
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Probably not a good idea to be non-compliant with medications like this. Would you do that with your heart medications as well?

I think the OP was talking about people who abuse the meds... not about people who actually need them.
I wasn't non-compliant. You don't just stop taking Effexor - you'll live to regret it if you do - it's a bloody awful drug to stop. You have to taper carefully on a pretty exacting schedule - hopefully under a physician's supervision. Why would you assume I was non-compliant? Anti-depressants are almost never a life-long commitment and none of them are approved for indefinite use.

I was trying to give the OP a little wiggle room by saying the meds are sometimes abused - but you're proving my point, actually. I think the meds are over-prescribed by a few practitioners - I don't think they're "over-taken" by anybody. If you don't need them, you don't get any "rush" and you don't rise above a baseline of a normal mood - you just get the side effects which, even with the newer drugs, are considerable and highly unpleasant.

My point is, I took antidepressants and I jolly well needed them. I knew some other students who were on SSRIs and, trust me, I knew enough about their symptoms to know that they needed them, too. It's very common, given the stress of medical school. Who gets to judge who really needed the drugs, and who didn't? The implication - clearly - was that the majority of students who take SSRIs in medical school are whiny wimps and that is absolute rubbish - and highly offensive to anyone who took SSRIs who read the post. The post was inappropriate.
 
Sorry for the confusion.. it sounded like you just stopped taking them on your own without consulting your physician. I'm pretty familiar with the non-compliant cycle especially with mood-altering drugs so that's why I asked. It's a pretty risky thing to do b/c most patients don't realize that doctors are not lying when they say it may take 3-4 weeks for the medication to start working... and that you absolutely should not stop it abruptly b/c of an increased risk of some pretty bad side effects. You're right about some doctors over prescribing medications that people may not need.. so that's why it's always good to go in for check-ups and a med eval. As you know, there will always be a stigma associated with those who take psychiatric medications. Thinking that people who take SSRI's are whimps probably doesn't help the whole stigma situation out too much... so yea that can be seen as offensive. Anyways... who would abuse a SSRI anyways? That doesn't even make sense. They should take pharmacology first. 😀
Thanks for the very reasonable post, Zona. The smoke has quit coming out of my ears. The OP is not on my Christmas card list, but my apologies if I jumped on you.
 
I'm surprised that no one has pulled your chain yet, so I will. When I was in my first semester of medical school (at the age of 45), an old panic disorder that I hadn't had trouble with since my 20's came back with a roar. And, no, I was not some "sissy" who ran to mommy for a "happy pill" - I toughed it out as long as I could - I lost 30-something pounds in about six weeks and used to keep both a fan and a jacket at my desk at home because I could alternate cold chills and sweats two or three times in an hour. And, you know what? I kept working and I kept a 4.0.

But when I knew I was coming apart at the seams, I went for some help. I wasn't really excited about SSRI's - been there, done that, limited results. But, venlafaxine - an SNRI - got me back on my feet in about 2 weeks. I put weight back on, was able to sleep, and was able to concentrate on my studies. I wasn't "happy", buddy, I was back to normal. I had a condition that needed treatment.

I no longer take venlafaxine. I decided that I wanted to get back off of it before third-year rotations, and I did. I'm doing fine.

As a student, I don't expect you to have a lot of experience in the proper use of anti-depressant drugs - and I admit they can be abused. I do expect you to have a little more compassion and humility before you go off on things you don't understand a damn thing about. Those meds saved my life - for a time-limited period. Your future patients who may truly be in need of help for a legitimate medical condition deserve a better attitude from you. The stress of medical school can derange the neurotransmitter balance of anyone who happens to be susceptible - and there are a lot of us, I know, who were deeply offended by such a callous post.

I don't understand why are you getting so upset at the OP. Ok, you had a legitimate condition that you needed SSRIs to help you with, but out of the 100 young adults who get prescribed medication for conditions that are diagnosed subjectively (ADHD, depression,...) about 30 of them trully need it. In todays society, it has become a well accepted trend that when anything is wrong with you, the drug is the only answer. You get the sniffles go for an antibiotic (even though it wont do a damn thing), you bf/gf dumps you get an antidepressant, you are too dumb to study, get an amphetamine. people would get online and look up a few symptoms that they have at a time, come up with a self-diagnosis, and just go to the doctor and ask for a drug. The worst part is that most doctors do give them what they ask for. I mean would you ever put your child on Focalin and concerta?! i sure would not.

So no disrespect to you, I am sure that the SNRI helped you and that your condition was genuine. But the OP had a huge point and he was right.
 
I don't understand why are you getting so upset at the OP. Ok, you had a legitimate condition that you needed SSRIs to help you with, but out of the 100 young adults who get prescribed medication for conditions that are diagnosed subjectively (ADHD, depression,...) about 30 of them trully need it. In todays society, it has become a well accepted trend that when anything is wrong with you, the drug is the only answer. You get the sniffles go for an antibiotic (even though it wont do a damn thing), you bf/gf dumps you get an antidepressant, you are too dumb to study, get an amphetamine. people would get online and look up a few symptoms that they have at a time, come up with a self-diagnosis, and just go to the doctor and ask for a drug. The worst part is that most doctors do give them what they ask for. I mean would you ever put your child on Focalin and concerta?! i sure would not.

So no disrespect to you, I am sure that the SNRI helped you and that your condition was genuine. But the OP had a huge point and he was right.
Not buying it. We were NOT discussing ADHD or "society in general" or anything like it. The OP was discussing medical students - and I really hate to drag this out and be argumentative, but I maintain my original position - it was inappropriate, offensive, insensitive, and a definite put-down. Confining the discussion to medical students only - yes, a lot of medical students take meds. For good reason. Let me take you down the hallways of my medical school - in the years of class portraits, you'll see many years where one or two pictures are marked "in memoriam." They were suicides for the most part. This became much rarer when Prozac was introduced in the late 1980s. To take your argument at face value - no, I'm not going to prescribe powerful drugs to a child who doesn't need them - but if you have a prejudice and a jaundiced eye toward mental health, you're going to miss some important cases. I'm not going to quote figures that I can't remember, but did you know that a large percentage of suicides visit their primary care physician in the 6 weeks preceding the suicide? It used to be that you could do nothing and get away with it, but currently in many jurisdictions, under-prescribing has been successfully litigated as malpractice.

And where in God's name did you get this 30/100 statistic? Do you think that little of the profession you're trying to enter? Until you're in practice and have had some experience or have had some personal experience, your statements are pure prejudice. As discussed earlier, SSRIs have nasty side effects - people don't take them for fun or for minor depression that doesn't need treating. To be blunt, you think it's fun to be totally impotent or, on a very good day, ejaculate backwards into your bladder? Check the latest literature and you'll find that the true figures for major side effects on SSRIs are well over 25%, not 2-3%. People do not take these drugs lightly - they are, trust me, no fun.

As I also mentioned earlier, I'm an odd medical student - I'm 47 years old. My age has enabled me to bring a different perspective to medical school - basically, I've learned the hard way how frail life truly is - and I hope I'm a little less quick to judge. You guys, frankly, are a little scary with your snap judgements and harsh opinions.
 
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Not buying it. We were NOT discussing ADHD or "society in general" or anything like it. The OP was discussing medical students - and I really hate to drag this out and be argumentative, but I maintain my original position - it was inappropriate, offensive, insensitive, and a definite put-down.

And where in God's name did you get this 30/100 statistic? Until you're in practice and have had some experience or have had some personal experience, your statements are pure prejudice. As discussed earlier, SSRIs have nasty side effects - people don't take them for fun or for minor depression that doesn't need treating. To be blunt, you think it's fun to be totally impotent or, on a very good day, ejaculate backwards into your bladder? Check the latest literature and you'll find that the true figures for major side effects on SSRIs are well over 25%, not 2-3%. People do not take these drugs lightly - they are, trust me, no fun.


I am not buying that 60% of medical students, which are in their 20s, need antidepressants. What did people do 40 years ago, just commit suicides?!

I think there are other ways to deal with depression, and people always like to take the easy route.
 
I am not buying that 60% of medical students, which are in their 20s, need antidepressants. What did people do 40 years ago, just commit suicides?!

I think there are other ways to deal with depression, and people always like to take the easy route.

Why aren't you buying it? You're a pharamacy student after all ... what on earth do you know about medical school anyway? Did you even take a minute to read up on these things? Do you think that pharamacists should look facts up or make them up off the top of their head?

Part of the reason that your response bothers me (besides your obvious lack of knowledge, which isn't uncommon) is that I knew a medical student who committed suicide. I also knew another student back in undergrad who committed suicide. Both of them were very talented. Both really had a lot to offer. Both suicides were unexpected and a total waste of life. Suicide is really not that uncommon and is an important cause of death, even among students in their 20s (actually especially so). I'm not sure if either of those two individuals was taking SSRIs. These drugs are pretty effective, but clearly not 100% effective. However, if they weren't I sure wish they would have gotten effective treatment.

Here is a little bit to get you started. I won't even start on your assessment on the application of psych drugs. It's obvious that you have zero clinical experience when it comes to depression and ADHD (I would guess a negative number if it were allowed) and have never looked beyond the likes of Us magazine to form your opinions in this matter.

I don't want to make it sound like medical school is all bad. Many (most?) people do like a significant part of their time in medical school (e.g., other than exam time, other than "bad" clerkships). It does have a significant amount of stress associated with it and learning to cope with this stress appears to be an important part of the process. I like medical school, but it's pretty obvious to me how it could aggravate depression or make life very difficult for someone with ADHD who might get by ok in other circumstances.

Julie M. Rosenthal, and Susan Okie, M.D. NEJM Volume 353:1085-1088, September 15, 2005, Number 11
"Medical students are more prone to depression than their nonmedical peers. Researchers recently surveyed first- and second-year medical students at the University of California, San Francisco (UCSF), and found that about one fourth were depressed.1 Others have suggested that although the rate of depression among students entering medical school is similar to that among other people of similar ages, the prevalence increases disproportionately over the course of medical school.2 Laurie Raymond, a psychiatrist and the director of the Office of Advising Resources at Harvard Medical School in Boston, said that she met individually with 208 medical students — about one quarter of the student body — between July 2003 and July 2005. Thirty-one students (15 percent) presented with self-described depression — 20 of them with transient, "reactive" depressed mood that improved with supportive counseling or therapy and 11 who had a history of major depression. The majority (130 students) consulted Raymond because of concern about academic performance, but major depression was diagnosed in 25 of them."

Mayo Clin Proc. 2005;80(12):1613-1622 © 2005 Mayo Foundation for Medical Education and Research
Medical Student Distress: Causes, Consequences, and Proposed Solutions
LISELOTTE N. DYRBYE, MD; MATTHEW R. THOMAS, MD; TAIT D. SHANAFELT, MD
Mayo Clinic College of Medicine, Rochester, Minn.
"Surveys in both the United States and abroad identify a high frequency of depression and poor mental health among medical students.3-10 In a study from the United Kingdom, more than one third of first-year students had poor mental health when measured with the General Health Questionnaire 12, which assesses anxiety and depression.3 Another study from the United Kingdom of that year students found that the incidence of poor mental health on the General Health Questionnaire 12 doubled during the first year, increasing from 25% to 52%.4 Other studies have reported similar findings5 and suggest that this decline in students' mental health persists throughout the remainder of medical school.6

In a 2002 survey of first- and second-year US medical students, 24% of students were depressed according to the Beck Depression Inventory.7 In a separate study, median Beck Depression Inventory scores increased 3-fold from the time of matriculation to the end of the second year, with 25% of students dysphoric, if not clinically depressed.8 Two additional studies of US students confirm a peak in depression during the second year of medical school, with gradual improvement during the third and fourth year of training.9,10

Despite the high prevalence of mental health–related concerns and ready access to mental health services, depressed medical students are no more likely than the general population to seek treatment for depression.7,11,50,51 Few students use mental health services,7,51 instead relying on the support of family and friends during periods of mental illness.51 Barriers to use of mental health services include lack of time, perception of academic jeopardy, concern regarding confidentiality, the stigma of mental illness, and cost.7,11,51 Some of these issues appear to be even greater barriers for female and minority students.11

...

Suicide is the third-leading cause of death among 20- to 30-year-olds in the United States.125 The annual suicide rate for male medical students between 1974 and 1981 was comparable to similarly aged men in the general population.126 Although the suicide rate for female students during this period equaled that of their male colleagues, it was 3 to 4 times higher than age-matched women in the general population.126 In a follow-up study of 101 US medical schools, 15 students were reported to have committed suicide between August 1989 and May 1994.127 All but 1 of these suicides were committed by men.127 In this study, suicide ranked higher as a cause of death in medical students than in similarly aged Americans.127

Annals of Internal Medicine, 2 September 2008 | Volume 149 Issue 5 | Pages 334-341
Burnout and Suicidal Ideation among U.S. Medical Students
Liselotte N. Dyrbye, MD; Matthew R. Thomas, MD; F. Stanford Massie, MD; David V Power, MD; Anne Eacker, MD; William Harper, MD; Steven Durning, MD; Christine Moutier, MD; Daniel W. Szydlo, BA; Paul J. Novotny, MS; Jeff A. Sloan, PhD; and Tait D. Shanafelt, MD
Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minnesota

"Results: Burnout was reported by 49.6% (95% CI, 47.5% to 51.8%) of students, and 11.2% (CI, 9.9% to 12.6%) reported suicidal ideation within the past year. ...

Conclusion: Approximately 50% of students experience burnout and 10% experience suicidal ideation during medical school. Burnout seems to be associated with increased likelihood of subsequent suicidal ideation, whereas recovery from burnout is associated with less suicidal ideation.
 
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The government needs to start putting SSRIs in our water. That way everyone can be happy!!
😀😀😀
 
The government needs to start putting SSRIs in our water. That way everyone can be happy!!
😀😀😀

Don't SSRIs tend to lead to ED? I think a lot of guys would have something else to be unhappy about if we spiked our water supply with SSRIs 🙁.
 
Why aren't you buying it? You're a pharamacy student after all ... what on earth do you know about medical school anyway? Did you even take a minute to read up on these things? Do you think that pharamacists should look facts up or make them up off the top of their head?

Part of the reason that your response bothers me (besides your obvious lack of knowledge, which isn't uncommon) is that I knew a medical student who committed suicide. I also knew another student back in undergrad who committed suicide. Both of them were very talented. Both really had a lot to offer. Both suicides were unexpected and a total waste of life. Suicide is really not that uncommon and is an important cause of death, even among students in their 20s (actually especially so). I'm not sure if either of those two individuals was taking SSRIs. These drugs are pretty effective, but clearly not 100% effective. However, if they weren't I sure wish they would have gotten effective treatment.

Here is a little bit to get you started. I won't even start on your assessment on the application of psych drugs. It's obvious that you have zero clinical experience when it comes to depression and ADHD (I would guess a negative number if it were allowed) and have never looked beyond the likes of Us magazine to form your opinions in this matter.

I don't want to make it sound like medical school is all bad. Many (most?) people do like a significant part of their time in medical school (e.g., other than exam time, other than "bad" clerkships). It does have a significant amount of stress associated with it and learning to cope with this stress appears to be an important part of the process. I like medical school, but it's pretty obvious to me how it could aggravate depression or make life very difficult for someone with ADHD who might get by ok in other circumstances.

Julie M. Rosenthal, and Susan Okie, M.D. NEJM Volume 353:1085-1088, September 15, 2005, Number 11
"Medical students are more prone to depression than their nonmedical peers. Researchers recently surveyed first- and second-year medical students at the University of California, San Francisco (UCSF), and found that about one fourth were depressed.1 Others have suggested that although the rate of depression among students entering medical school is similar to that among other people of similar ages, the prevalence increases disproportionately over the course of medical school.2 Laurie Raymond, a psychiatrist and the director of the Office of Advising Resources at Harvard Medical School in Boston, said that she met individually with 208 medical students — about one quarter of the student body — between July 2003 and July 2005. Thirty-one students (15 percent) presented with self-described depression — 20 of them with transient, "reactive" depressed mood that improved with supportive counseling or therapy and 11 who had a history of major depression. The majority (130 students) consulted Raymond because of concern about academic performance, but major depression was diagnosed in 25 of them."

Mayo Clin Proc. 2005;80(12):1613-1622 © 2005 Mayo Foundation for Medical Education and Research
Medical Student Distress: Causes, Consequences, and Proposed Solutions
LISELOTTE N. DYRBYE, MD; MATTHEW R. THOMAS, MD; TAIT D. SHANAFELT, MD
Mayo Clinic College of Medicine, Rochester, Minn.
"Surveys in both the United States and abroad identify a high frequency of depression and poor mental health among medical students.3-10 In a study from the United Kingdom, more than one third of first-year students had poor mental health when measured with the General Health Questionnaire 12, which assesses anxiety and depression.3 Another study from the United Kingdom of that year students found that the incidence of poor mental health on the General Health Questionnaire 12 doubled during the first year, increasing from 25% to 52%.4 Other studies have reported similar findings5 and suggest that this decline in students’ mental health persists throughout the remainder of medical school.6

In a 2002 survey of first- and second-year US medical students, 24% of students were depressed according to the Beck Depression Inventory.7 In a separate study, median Beck Depression Inventory scores increased 3-fold from the time of matriculation to the end of the second year, with 25% of students dysphoric, if not clinically depressed.8 Two additional studies of US students confirm a peak in depression during the second year of medical school, with gradual improvement during the third and fourth year of training.9,10

Despite the high prevalence of mental health–related concerns and ready access to mental health services, depressed medical students are no more likely than the general population to seek treatment for depression.7,11,50,51 Few students use mental health services,7,51 instead relying on the support of family and friends during periods of mental illness.51 Barriers to use of mental health services include lack of time, perception of academic jeopardy, concern regarding confidentiality, the stigma of mental illness, and cost.7,11,51 Some of these issues appear to be even greater barriers for female and minority students.11

...

Suicide is the third-leading cause of death among 20- to 30-year-olds in the United States.125 The annual suicide rate for male medical students between 1974 and 1981 was comparable to similarly aged men in the general population.126 Although the suicide rate for female students during this period equaled that of their male colleagues, it was 3 to 4 times higher than age-matched women in the general population.126 In a follow-up study of 101 US medical schools, 15 students were reported to have committed suicide between August 1989 and May 1994.127 All but 1 of these suicides were committed by men.127 In this study, suicide ranked higher as a cause of death in medical students than in similarly aged Americans.127

Annals of Internal Medicine, 2 September 2008 | Volume 149 Issue 5 | Pages 334-341
Burnout and Suicidal Ideation among U.S. Medical Students
Liselotte N. Dyrbye, MD; Matthew R. Thomas, MD; F. Stanford Massie, MD; David V Power, MD; Anne Eacker, MD; William Harper, MD; Steven Durning, MD; Christine Moutier, MD; Daniel W. Szydlo, BA; Paul J. Novotny, MS; Jeff A. Sloan, PhD; and Tait D. Shanafelt, MD
Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minnesota

"Results: Burnout was reported by 49.6% (95% CI, 47.5% to 51.8%) of students, and 11.2% (CI, 9.9% to 12.6%) reported suicidal ideation within the past year. ...

Conclusion: Approximately 50% of students experience burnout and 10% experience suicidal ideation during medical school. Burnout seems to be associated with increased likelihood of subsequent suicidal ideation, whereas recovery from burnout is associated with less suicidal ideation.

I respect all the proof that you provided for your argument, and I am very sorry for the loss of your friends.

But the information that you have provided applies to the people in the western civilizations, which is what I referred to as "todays society". I am from Eastern Europe, where I grew up and also attended college. I am beyond any doubt 100% sure that the school there is 5 times more difficult to complete. the average bachelor's degree completion lasts on average 7-8 years. And then again, the use of antidepressants and suicides are not even close as in the west. I never met someone that used any medication to help them get through a tough time, because we know how to deal with things, having experiences that people in the western countries don't. and to remind you, our lives resemble nothing you know (years of wars and economic hardship).

I don't understand why you have to insult my intelligence. You question my clinical knowledge about drugs and their action, but what do you know about drugs as a medical student, having pharmacology for one semester?! And how do you know as a medical student how effective they are?! Are you a psychiatrist?! Have you yourself done research?! Published papers?!
No, just a medical student....
 
I don't understand why you have to insult my intelligence. You question my clinical knowledge about drugs and their action, but what do you know about drugs as a medical student, having pharmacology for one semester?! And how do you know as a medical student how effective they are?! Are you a psychiatrist?! Have you yourself done research?! Published papers?!
No, just a medical student....

There is only so much you can know about a drug and its mechanism. SSRIs block 5-HT reuptake. But where in the body is serotonin made? What are its effects on the body? What role does it play in migraines? What are the precursors in its synthetic pathway? What role does it play in sleep patterns and sleep stages? How does it interact with other neurotransmitters? What clinical signs and symptoms do you look for in serotonin syndrome? How do you treat serotonin syndrome? These are things that can easily be googled, but most medical students know the answers like the back of their hand. There is an endless amount of information to know about how the drug effects different organs of the body, the clinical manifestations, and what lab tests to order to monitor progress and adverse reactions.

If I needed someone to list every possible drug for hypertension and every drug interaction, I will ask a pharmacist/pharmacy student. If I needed to know when a drug should be prescribed for a certain medical condition, and if a patient even suffers from said condition, I will ask a physician/medical student.

I agree that psychiatric drugs are generally overprescribed these days. But to say just because your culture managed fine without SSRIs that now all Americans in medical school don't need them is foolish and closed minded. I'm sure if you took a survey across cultures and had them rank their happiness, quality of life, and expected quality of life you would see a drastic difference as well.
 
I must say I enjoyed j1515's recent "heated discussion". He isn't way off about the fact that not everything is possible in life and one simply has to accept it and move on. Looks like he's learned to accept the fact that he's a midget and can't play pro bb no matter how hard he tries 😉. Seriously though, he's not completely wrong. All he needs to do now is to let us know who he is and what he has done so we can admire him more. If he's currently attending DO school, he should also share his experiences as they may prove to be useful to those who probably won't enter med school. Final note, j1515 is a very wise and worldly man who got his info about other folks off websites like juicy campus and speaks like he personally knows them.
 
Med school stressful? Baahhhh! I am one of the very few lucky people that dont worry. Its just not in my nature. But I did know that a significant amount of my classmates where on adderall or SSRIs.
 
If I needed someone to list every possible drug for hypertension and every drug interaction, I will ask a pharmacist/pharmacy student. If I needed to know when a drug should be prescribed for a certain medical condition, and if a patient even suffers from said condition, I will ask a physician/medical student.

Unbelievable how ignorant you are about the work clinical pharmacists do. however, I am not even going to attempt to get into discussion about this with you.


Someone from Asia will not understand the stress of having $200,000 in student loans to pay back; someone from the US will not know the feeling of not having enough money to ever be able to purchase a home for your family.

I find it hard to believe that the hardship people right now in Georgia are experiencing is comparable to any kind of loan debt that a person might have. I must say that the hardships in different countries are impossible to compare.

If you can give me an equivalent hardship of surviving the siege of Sarajevo (Bosnia), I would be truly amazed.

Nevertheless, I also wanted to point out that I never said that antidepressants should NEVER be prescribed. I do believe that there are people who really need them. I was just trying to say that a lot of people think they need them, when they actually don't.
 
Thanks for the help, guys. I went out on a limb there saying, "I took Effexor for 2 years and I needed it!" But I thought it was important to speak for those who won't. I was beginning to wonder where the Cavalry had gotten off to. :laugh:
 
1. Why do you care what drug other people are taking?
2. you need to get off your soap box
3. It is better to have someone on a pill, than to have them take their own life, or someone elses (assuming they are seeking help, and are compliant).
4. I understand your argument for more resilience...my generation is a bit more sensitive than our grandfathers, etc..., but you bitching on SDN isn't going to do anything other than make you look like an ass.



Unbelievable how ignorant you are about the work clinical pharmacists do. however, I am not even going to attempt to get into discussion about this with you.




I find it hard to believe that the hardship people right now in Georgia are experiencing is comparable to any kind of loan debt that a person might have. I must say that the hardships in different countries are impossible to compare.

If you can give me an equivalent hardship of surviving the siege of Sarajevo (Bosnia), I would be truly amazed.

Nevertheless, I also wanted to point out that I never said that antidepressants should NEVER be prescribed. I do believe that there are people who really need them. I was just trying to say that a lot of people think they need them, when they actually don't.
 
I respect all the proof that you provided for your argument, and I am very sorry for the loss of your friends.

But the information that you have provided applies to the people in the western civilizations, which is what I referred to as "todays society". I am from Eastern Europe, where I grew up and also attended college. I am beyond any doubt 100% sure that the school there is 5 times more difficult to complete. the average bachelor's degree completion lasts on average 7-8 years. And then again, the use of antidepressants and suicides are not even close as in the west. I never met someone that used any medication to help them get through a tough time, because we know how to deal with things, having experiences that people in the western countries don't. and to remind you, our lives resemble nothing you know (years of wars and economic hardship).

I don't understand why you have to insult my intelligence. You question my clinical knowledge about drugs and their action, but what do you know about drugs as a medical student, having pharmacology for one semester?! And how do you know as a medical student how effective they are?! Are you a psychiatrist?! Have you yourself done research?! Published papers?!
No, just a medical student....

You're probably quite intelligent, but you were too lazy or unmotivated to look up the facts. I'm probably being overly harsh because I'm unhappy about the fact that many medical students suffer and, in some cases, die for something that can be treated successfully if people who needed treatment would take the initiative to get it. It's an obvious problem with a very good treatment and your uninformed comments just get in the way.

Mental illness has a stigma, even in medicine and even though we can prove that the patient in many cases is a victim of genetics, circumstance, and physiology and not at fault (no self-inflicted injury). The biggest problem here not the lack of effective treatment possibilities (whether pharma or not) ... it's frequently the failure to seek treatment, thanks to attitudes such as yours. That's why I'm being harsh about it ... because your line of thinking leads to completely unnecessary suffering and death. It's really nothing against you personally. It's an argument against sloppy thinking. Your off the cuff comment would be similar to saying (hypthetically, I hope this is not the case) that in Eastern Europe we don't treat blood pressure or diabetes very often and do just fine, and the fact that you treat so many for this in the U.S. suggests those medicines are overprescribed and that there is no good basis for such treatment. Although this analogy has several limitations, I hope it communicates that you can't draw these kinds of comparisons rationally.

I have enjoyed working in many different stressful professional situations outside the medical field and, in those situations, suicide was completely unheard of in my experience. A certain amount of stress is necessary ... without gravity our bones would waste away, for example. In those non-medical situations, I found that people might be unhappy but for whatever reason suicide was basically never on the radar. They might be mad at their boss, spouse, have a illness, etc., but it was a problem that was dealt with in various mature or childish ways but never suicide. By contrast, the only two suicides I know of happened with students, and, of course, we see high incidence of suicide in soldiers returning from war. Would you argue that war veterans should just "suck it up" rather than get treated for PTSD? We see the result of that brilliant policy with large numbers of recent veterans turning to all kinds of harmful activities, including killing themselves and family members (many of them are the low risk 20-somethings you claim are such low risk). You certainly aren't alone in your erroneous, harmful thinking. It's the thinking I have a problem with, not you personally.

As far as this thread goes, we aren't talking about the use of antidepressants or ADHD drugs at your pharmacy school in Eastern Europe. We aren't even talking about suicide among pharmacy students in the U.S or U.S. war veterans. We are talking about something that I see around me in medical school and that you do not see but try to extrapolate to from your experience. I have lived in Europe and the U.S. and, if you are in your early 20s, I'm old enough to be your father. I hold a Ph.D. and, yes, I have published papers although I'm not a psychiatrist nor do I consider myself to be an expert in the matter. At least I'm one of the "subjects" as a medical student whereas you aren't.

The questions you are talking about are psychiatry 101 that any medical student in our school learns in the first year and quite possibly may observe with patients as I and many of my classmates have. It's not difficult, but it requires looking at the facts rather than jumping to conclusions with no information. Before I learned this I actually thought a lot like you and feel a bit guilty about it now because I was raised to think that people should be tough and overcome challenges. Drug-free was certainly a value. While working hard and working through challenges drug-free is a good idea, it is completley inappropriate in certain important cases. Now, looking back, I wonder sometimes if I could have helped a friend rather than being part of the problem and stigma in mental illness treatment. For whatever reason, when it comes to psychiatry, everyone is suddenly an expert in a way that no one would even dream to claim to be an expert in say, neurosurgery. I don't claim to be an expert and feel free to brief me on what you find if you see a huge falacy in my logic or explanation. I personally saw the falacy of my formative thinking on this (similar to yours) despite mountains of high quality research results that show that mental illness is usually not something that the patient can just get over like the flu.

It's easy to be dismissive of the facts from a distance. I have dealt with a few psychiatric patients (including adults, students, and children) and can say that appropriate use of antidepressants and ADHD medications often has a very positive effect in saving lives and improving quality of life. It really isn't that complicated. I would say it's similar to say, giving food to a hungry baby ... the fed baby does better than the starving one. Anyone with an IQ above maybe 80 can figure this out and it's backed up by good data. It requires no complex powers of analysis.

It does require looking at the facts. The biggest problem is failure to seek or get access to treatment or screening for mental illness followed by non-compliance with medication regimens. People have a major breakdown, are treated with meds, feel better, stop taking the meds, and the cycle repeats with a major treatment. In this thread, we aren't talking about how to distuish subtle differences in an ADHD primary diagnosis with comorbid depression-like symptoms versus a primary MDD that has a distractability component that would require a psychiatrist. We're talking about simple things like strong aqueous acid-base neutralizations will make salts and usually heat level of knowledge that most of us learned in high school or earlier. The problem isn't that you're not smart enough to figure this out. This is really simple material if you just take the time to look at it.

I will say that some of this psych stuff does run counter to "intuition" and what many of us have been taught growing up. It's tempting to think of overprescription of antidepressants or stimulants similar to giving out valiums or crack to anyone who asks. While abuse and overprescribing of antidepressants and stimulants does occur, the consequences are mostly wasted money because the first line drugs are often relatively safe (there are always exceptions, of course). If you don't think so, show me some study results as to what the public health consequences of overprescribing these drugs are. I would be interested in such a study anyway. On the other hand, failure to treat mental illness leads to serious problems in medical school and, in society, fills our prisons and homeless shelters and leads to all kinds of other serious, expensive, life-long problems. I'm not suggesting that every use of these medications is appropriate anymore that I would suggest that every other prescription is always appropriate. That doesn't mean that these medications don't have an appropriate use. Just because the average person can survive without appropriate mental health treatment doesn't mean it's the best approach.

Perhaps you erroneously assumed that because U.S. students have it easier that they should be even less prone to mental disorders than people in your class. It's not entirely clear where you are coming from. Maybe your assumption is that it's the difficulty of life (income, access to nutrition, services, etc.) causes mental disorders when there are actually a number of studies that show that there is a genetic predisposition that is unaffected by how much money or food a person has (again, perhaps you could clarify your thinking). In classic MDD, it appears that a few ordinary life stress events prime the sytems in the brain and the disease then kicks in without the need for environmental stressors. A person with this disorder might feel despondent even when everything in their environment appears to be fine.

I will grant you that life is much harder where you live, but it is what you are used to and the expectations are adjusted accordingly. Stress is based on non-conformance to expectations, not necessarily some absolute quantity. A poor villager in a developing country might be quite content to live in a straw hut with a dirt floor. A pediatric heart surgeon committed suicide because he couldn't deal with the fact that some of his patients died (even though he was one of the best). My point is that you can't just take your life experience and extrapolate it on an entirely different situation.

I assume you strive to be rational, logical, educated person. This means that when you find a situation you know nothing about you at least have the decency to look up the basics, and this is something you did not do. If you were arguing about math, I wouldn't care. The implications might be important but not life-threatening. The fact is that you are arguing for something that is actually harmful (not getting treatment) when the information we have (limited as it may be) is that medical students actually tend to get less treatment than they need and are embarrassed to seek it rather than running to the psychiatrist at every little life challenge. By complaining about the overprescription of these drugs, you are discouraging those who do need treatment, and there are many such people in U.S. medical schools as I outlined in the brief quotes in my earlier post.
 
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People may sometimes take an aspirin/tylenol to relieve their headaches, muscle pain, etc. They may even have trouble sleeping one night for some reason other than stress/anxiety (i.e. try getting a good night sleep in the woods). A genius who loves to poke his/her nose into other people's affairs usually comes up with such intelligent explanations: "they probably suffer from insomnia, they're on antidepressant pills, etc. I don't know jack, I'll just go with the brilliant assumptions that come out of my behind." :slap:
 
After reading all these posts, I must admit that I was out of line. I apologize if I appeared insensitive, or trying to look down on people who needed help. That was not my intention. Perhaps it might be that coming from a different culture, I might have a different point of view of things...
 
After reading all these posts, I must admit that I was out of line. I apologize if I appeared insensitive, or trying to look down on people who needed help. That was not my intention. Perhaps it might be that coming from a different culture, I might have a different point of view of things...
I sincerely appreciate that. I don't mind a good argument, but it's fairly rare for me to grab onto something and refuse to let it go - this time I did. The new medications, carefully prescribed and properly used, have eliminated an enormous amount of suffering - thing is, people used to suffer in silence. I never told my mod-mates how much trouble I was in and how much I was suffering until after things had calmed-down - there is an unwritten code that you keep your "happy face" on campus no matter what's happening inside. I've never been so willing to talk much about what happened to me until now, either. But I know that there are some MS-I's (or other health professions students) who need to know that asking for help and perhaps taking meds for a while won't ruin your career or mark you for life - that's why I've been so passionate in this thread. Thank you very much for opening your mind to listen to my experience.
 
After reading all these posts, I must admit that I was out of line. I apologize if I appeared insensitive, or trying to look down on people who needed help. That was not my intention. Perhaps it might be that coming from a different culture, I might have a different point of view of things...

I'm glad to hear this situation is making more sense to you. Your former perspective is actually pretty common. I was suprised and quite bothered when I learned many of these things myself. I've seen physicians and pharmacists making fun on depressed patients, lose their temper with them, or make remarks that express their disgust about such patients ... something I haven't seen with most illnesses even if the biomedical roots of the problem are there in both cases and out of the patient's control. On the other hand, when a serious problem occurs with a medical student or physician, these issues are often kept fairly quiet (in a denial as opposed to privacy oriented way) lest the public find out and think less highly of our profession than they ought to. There is a huge stigma here and it's not going to change quickly. It's a pretty sad state of affairs but I'm still somewhat hopeful that things will improve. Many medical school educators are aware of the problem and are working on various ways to correct it.
 
From my time in psychiatry, I have learned that the key specifiers are the ones that most people pay the least attention to such as specifiers about how much an impact the constellation of symptoms have had on an individual.

This is a really really interesting discussion. I congratulate all of you on some very intelligent, and reasoned responses. It's discussions like these that leave us ALL better off. Well done team!

I noticed that one (or more of you) mentioned that SSRi's should be in the water. While I appreciate this is a joke, there is pretty good evidence that SSRis have little effect on people with 'normal' moods. If you are normal, and you take an SSRi you will not become manic.

I think there are probably very good reasons why we try and keep mental illness within professionals as quiet as possible. Most people on the 'outside' don't have a systematic way of conceptualising mental illness. Depression, Mania, Psychosis, Anxiety disorders all fit into one big deep black bag called "madness" for them - whereas for us, we obviously have different ways of grouping things. As a result, no matter what diagnosis you have, people will always assume that you're a little crazy, and unstable - and will question your judgement, and ability to make rational decisions. This can irreversibly harm the patient-doctor relationship.

It's interesting how much our biomedical model of health filters out into society. It's amazing how few people grasp the concept that a lot of illnesses in western society now are lifelong problems that require ongoing monitoring, and therapy. Tablets essentially provide remission/symptom control - and only in a select number of cases (ie infections) go any length to "curing" an illness. I think this is also partly due to our inability to accurately inform/educate patients. What do you think ?
 
WTF is up with all these drug threads?

If you need drugs to study,

1.) You care WAYY too much about your grades. Chill the ***k out.
2.) You are studying wrong. See an academic counselor, you junkie.
 
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