St. Vincent's program

[gastech76]

I'm a resident at St. Vinnie's, and I would caution you all before ranking this place. They sold the hospital and they're gonna build a new building, but in the interim the incoming residents may be displaced for a few months. You might end up in locations you never imagined. No one's gonna tell u this at the interview!
They sold all of their manhattan housing, and now the residents have to move to NJ by July. Luckily I'll be gone by then. They may not tell you this either. The hospital is still officially in bankruptcy.
You guys should look at the brooklyn programs before ranking this place. The case load is pretty sucky also.

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[chocomorsel]

Thank you for this informative info. Boy, the things you find out on this forum. Don't plan on living in the east coast anyway.

 

[anestheticman]

Wow, thanks for the information.

Why do the residents need to move to NJ versus somewhere else in Manhattan? Were you just generalizing?

 

[gastech76]

the housing they will be "subsidizing" will be in jersey. There will be no longer any subsudized houysing for st. vincent's residents from now on. Please apply cautiously, this is not an easy area to find housing in, and its definately not the nicest hsopital to work in.

 

[sp1129]

To add insult-to-injury, they also do not allow any of their senior residents to do moonlighting. It is strictly forbidden in the contract. Bottom line - this is the only program now in NYC where you won't have affordable housing AND you won't have the option of making some extra cash to offset the costs of market rent housing. As someone else already put it: apply with caution!

 

[Nauss99]

Where in NJ? Is this in Hoboken and JC or out in Bayonne or something?

 

[anestheticman]

Are there specific issues with the program that I should consider aside from the housing issue and the hospital's debt that might affect my education there and/or job opportunities afterwords?

 

[sp1129]

Well, if you are doing rotations out of other hospitals, you can't be sure how good your clinical experience will be and if you're scattered all over the city, you can forget about didactics. Additionally, if your commute isn't good, you'll be too tired to study.
Just look at other programs, you dont have these headaches to deal with.

 

[gastech76]

Things are going to be pretty turbulent here for the next couple of years. I feel sorry for anyone who comes to this hospital for residency starting this summer. If you come to the interview, they'll paint a peachy picture for you, with slides and all, but the reality couldn't be more different. With no affordable housing, and the old hospital building shutting down before the new one opens, your residency training will be SEVERELY compromised and yes, fellowships and private practice groups pay attention to these things.

 

[sp1129]

yes, its official, no more manhattan housing, effective july '08 for 50% of the residents and jan. '09 for the others.

 

[anestheticman]

so this applies to all of the residency programs right? 50% means maybe i would get housing for the first year and maybe not??

i ask because i am interviewing for anesthesia, surgery, transitional, and medicine there and i really, really want to live in NYC if even for a year.

 

[sp1129]

no, you won't get any housing. the 50% not being kicked out in july will leave by jan, and no new tenants are going to be allowed. You're not going to get any housing in manhattan. Oh and on a side note, the pediatrics and med-peds dept. just announced they're shutting down.
Like I said, things are changing very fast here, apply with caution.

 

[anestheticman]

good lord.

what would we do without these forums?

thanks for the advice. let's hope one of my other manhattan options works out for me

 

[oxygen21]

The housing situation is true and definitely an issue for all of the residency programs at St. Vincent's Hospital in Manhattan, not just Anesthesiology.

However, I would like to know why sp1129 and gastech76 are leaving out the fact that the Anesthesiology residency program at St. Vincent's just received a four-year accreditation from the ACGME and was also just approved for three additional residents starting immediately? Those seem to be two major factors that tell a different story than what we are reading here. I'm also referring to the residency program itself, not the housing situation.

 

[anestheticman]

Nice, so there are 8 categorical spots now?

 

[sp1129]

No, there are 6 spots, one additional resident for each year. And the reason why this program received a 4 yr. accreditation is because they put on a great show for the site visitors, kind of like they'll do for you at the interview. Most of it was a fabrication. For example, on paper, we do 3 months of pediatric anesthesia, but in reality we only have 1 real month (done at westchester), which is below the ACGME requirement. The hospital itself doesn't have the case load to allow any pediatric months, but on paper its written we get 3 full months. So, therein lies the "different story" my respected colleague (oxygen21) was referring to. Actually, its the same story, but a different spin.

 

[anestheticman]

if you wouldn't mind, would you 3 residents PM me your email or any other contact information you feel comfortable sharing?

i have many questions about the program that would influence where i will rank it that were not answered at my interview day.

 

[oxygen21]

No, there are 6 spots, one additional resident for each year. And the reason why this program received a 4 yr. accreditation is because they put on a great show for the site visitors, kind of like they'll do for you at the interview. Most of it was a fabrication. For example, on paper, we do 3 months of pediatric anesthesia, but in reality we only have 1 real month (done at westchester), which is below the ACGME requirement. The hospital itself doesn't have the case load to allow any pediatric months, but on paper its written we get 3 full months. So, therein lies the "different story" my respected colleague (oxygen21) was referring to. Actually, its the same story, but a different spin.

No, I am not a colleague. However, I, like most people, can tell that sp1129 oozes disgruntled resident. The hospital administration is altering your housing situation, forcing you to move, and you are now taking it out on the Anesthesiology department. You also may be a disgruntled ex-resident, but that is a different story.

I believe there is no minimum requirement as to how many months you have to do pediatric anesthesia. Rather, a minimum number of cases you must perform. St. Vincent's primarily serves the Greenwich Village and Chelsea neighorhoods of Manhattan. If you know Manhattan neighborhoods and populations, you know why there are not a lot of pediatric patients in this vicinity. The Anesthesiology department at St. Vincent's is very up front that they lack the population under one year of age which is why residents spend one month at Westchester Children's Hospital. This is the only month spent outside of St. Vincent's Hospital in Manhattan. I am sure that their residents would not be graduating and becoming board certified without the minimum number of pediatric cases. Unless of course, the department is "putting on another show" for the ACGME and tricking them into thinking their residents do the minimum number of pediatric cases. By the way, that must have been some "show" to fool the ACGME into a four-year accreditation and extra resident spots!

To settle all of this, I encourage all of the interviewees to talk to the residents when they interview and during the pre-interview dinner the night before. There are no attendings at the dinner and ample time without attendings to discuss with the residents during the interview day. The residents have no reason to hide anything. There is no reason for the residents to trick you and paint a great picture like sp1129 claims the department officials do. Are there some things that could be improved? Yes, but this is the answer at every program.

 

[ruch1979]

I dont know who the people posting on this thread have been, attendings, residents, or ex-residents, but let me tell you, I'm a current resident, and I dont agree with the nonsense thats been put forth. This dept. is very pro-resident. I can't tell you how many times they've supported me, financially, physically, and professionally in my endeavors. They are the only program in the city that is categorical, one of 2 that has a simulator (the other being mt. sinai), one of the few that has trauma, and all the didactics are during work hours, not at 5am like some places.

The resident-faculty ratio is great, and every individual who graduates does well. Many are faculty at places like Wake forest and Mt. Sinai while others are working in the community. Some stayed on as faculty here. If the training wasn't good, the results would've been different.

Now, as this silly peds debate and housing goes, yes, we are losing manhattan housing, but we're also being given the option to move to luxury high rises in NJ at a subsidized rent. And the peds training here is not that strong, which is y we go to westchester. However, that exists everywhere. Go to some other places, and they'll complain they dont get trauma. Its impossible to find a perfect program, just like its not possible to find a perfect resident.

For my part,. I interviewed at every NYC program, and I have no qualms about my decision.

 

[gastech76]

I dont know how much they paid that other resident for making comments, but let me inject my 2 cents:

YES, THERE IS A MINIMUM NUMBER OF MONTHS OF PEDS YOU HAVE TO DO. I specifically is required by the ACGME that you have 3 IDENTIFIABLE months of pediatric anesthesia, and 1 identifiable month of neuranesthesia, neither of which this place has.

People dont get disgruntled unless they have a reason to be. You evict your residents, take away their pay raise, and lie to them about your case load...yes, that makes me disgruntles, and oxygen21, if you're an applicant, trust me, you'd be disgruntled to under these conditions.

Its true, the peds and med/peds depts are toast, and yes, these people were told just months ago "NO ONE IS LOSING THEIR RESIDENCY, DON'T WORRY."

Now these people's careers are screwed. If you want to take chances, please come to St. Vincent's. If you want some stabiliuty during an already difficult time in your career (aka residency), I suggest you don't rank this place.

 

[gastech76]

oh and i forgot to mention, yes if the hospital is screwing residents over, then the dept. is also partially to blame. They could've told their applicants that the financial situation of the hospital is not that solid and put their cards out. The chairmen sits on the committee for housing, yet he favors everything they say, leaving the residents out in the cold. Please, oxygen21, dont comment on things you dont know about.

 

[anestheticman]

Any other St. V's residents on here?

 

[oxygen21]

I dont know how much they paid that other resident for making comments, but let me inject my 2 cents:

YES, THERE IS A MINIMUM NUMBER OF MONTHS OF PEDS YOU HAVE TO DO. I specifically is required by the ACGME that you have 3 IDENTIFIABLE months of pediatric anesthesia, and 1 identifiable month of neuranesthesia, neither of which this place has.

People dont get disgruntled unless they have a reason to be. You evict your residents, take away their pay raise, and lie to them about your case load...yes, that makes me disgruntles, and oxygen21, if you're an applicant, trust me, you'd be disgruntled to under these conditions.

Its true, the peds and med/peds depts are toast, and yes, these people were told just months ago "NO ONE IS LOSING THEIR RESIDENCY, DON'T WORRY."

Now these people's careers are screwed. If you want to take chances, please come to St. Vincent's. If you want some stabiliuty during an already difficult time in your career (aka residency), I suggest you don't rank this place.

Gastech76, I will honor your request and not comment on things I do not know about. What we all do know is that you clearly are a sub-par resident who has spent extra time in the eye room and are now trying to single-handedly take down an entire residency program. You yourself even said I know what I am talking about since I called you disgruntled and you admitted to being so. Your problem lies in your misinformation which I will comment on:

Here is the link to the ACGME Program Requirements for Anesthesiology Residencies: http://www.acgme.org/acWebsite/downloads/RRC_progReq/040pr07012007.pdf You will not find anything stating that a minimum three months of pediatric anesthesia is required. Page 3 does mention a minimum requirement of one month. I like how you used ALL CAPS to emphasize your point too. Also, if you count craniotomies and spine surgery, there is neuroanesthesia as well.

The program does not lie about their case load. You probably don't realize that your colleagues are doing the open hearts, craniotomies, livers, kidneys, prostates, spine and total joints while you are watching the ophthalmologic surgeon perform his retrobulbar block. As mentioned earlier in this thread, that must have been some show the program put on in order to be given a four year accreditation by the ACGME. Also, if I'm not mistaken, I believe part of the re-certification process involves the residents meeting with an ACGME representative with no one else from the department around. If you had such an issue, why didn't you expose all of these lies then? Or maybe you weren't there?

As I agreed to earlier, the residents having to be rellocated is a big issue. I cannot argue that. I would check your pay stubs though because everyone else is getting the raise from last year. The hospital is out of bankruptcy and the new facility is already through the beginning stages. That says financial stability to me. I would also check your grammar and misspellings before sending posts out to a very widespread professional audience. It doesn't help your one-person crusade to not have passed high school English.

Ruch1979 is much more representative of a St. Vincent's resident. So is drjeffkim from the Scutwork review 6-28-07.

 

[anestheticman]

My main concern was what I have heard about residents being fired/ asked to "resign" from the program. In some ways, it sounds like there are some "dictatorship" elements to the program which concern me. Like the scutwork review with the quote about Hitler rings in my head when I consider the program and where to rank it.

Seems a little scary to pledge my future to a program that might do this to me, but it is hard to tell if the rumors are true. I hinted at these sorts of things at my dinner and interview but of course who would tell an applicant anything bad. One resident did allude to the chair not being the most warm and friendly guy in the world but that the PD was which I found to be true. Nothing wrong with someone not being the most warm and friendly though. Hard to tell what people would be like to work with.

 

[sp1129]

Your concern is valid. Ask these "true residents" ruch1979, and oxygen21, when was the last time the program graduated a full class? They have 5 residents, and they cannot even keep all 5. One always goes for some mysterious reason, and those remaining are told that the one who "left" was unfit for the field and if we knew what they know, we would have done the same thing. However, when you talk with the resident being fired, they always say lies are being made up. If this happened once or twice, I'd understand, but this happens EVERY YEAR. You don't beleive me? Ask the PD next time you interact if anyone "left" last year. Don't ask about firing, because on paper they're never fired, they're simply "asked to resign or transfer."
If you are the unfortunate sole that has been earmarked for dismissal, god have mercy on you, because the chairmen and the dept. here won't.

PS. Please read the review by drjeffkim on scutwork. And if possible, keep scrolling down and read what other residents have had to say. You'll understand my point.

 

[oxygen21]

I never said that I was a resident at St. Vincent's. I do feel bad though that you were "asked to resign". I hope everything is working out for you now.

 

[sp1129]

I never said that I was asked to resign, but I know people that were, and yes, you should feel bad for them, because like you, they too wanted to be anesthesiologists and their careers were cut short by an arrogant program that is more concerned about dominating residents than training them. Don't worry though, I'm sure all the good posts you and ruch1979 have made will help you both secure a job here.

 

[oxygen21]

I never said that I was asked to resign, but I know people that were, and yes, you should feel bad for them, because like you, they too wanted to be anesthesiologists and their careers were cut short by an arrogant program that is more concerned about dominating residents than training them. Don't worry though, I'm sure all the good posts you and ruch1979 have made will help you both secure a job here.

That is hilarious! Your best post in this thread!

 

[ruch1979]

I think residents leave (voluntery or otherwise) in every program and in every dept., but perhaps its more noticeable here because we're such a small program. I definately don't think people are "gunning" for anyone. My understanding is that those who were dismissed had been put on probation several times before, so they had it coming.

I assure you, my comments are not an attempt by me to impress anyone or "get a job here". Where there are weaknesses, I'll point to them. I just don't think its fair to take single instances out of contexts and paint a negative picture based on rumors and intuition.

 

[gastech76]

There's no need for this back-and-forth between people on this thread. There's obviously a difference of opinion. Here are the facts: The program was accredited for 4 years and has 6 residents per class. Some do fellowships and some don't. However, other facts are also that the program has dismissed residents under suspicious circumstances every year, and is still in financial trouble. Peds is gone, and for all we know anesthesia could be next. Housing is finished, only NJ is available. If these facts suit u, come here. If they don't find another place. I felt that applicants were getting a scewed version as did I many years ago. I feel it has been sufficiently clarified for everyone in this dialogue. If people are comfortable with these problems and putting their faith in the hands of a bankrupt system, then this is the place for you.

 

[Plead the Fifth]

I interviewed there last week, and this is what was told to me:

The hospital went into bankruptcy but emerged from it last year (2007 or 2006). According to the PD, St. Vincent's acquired some less than stellar hospitals in the surrounding NY area (Bronx, etc) in an attempt to bring them up to par. The project failed and led to bankruptcy. They no longer operate those other hospitals.

Manhattan housing is indeed gone. The housing used to be joined to the hospital, but as part of their emergence from bankruptcy, they sold of the housing. Housing is available in Jersey City, NJ. They are very new, upscale condominiums though. Their website is http://www.grovepointerentals.com/. Rent is subsidized, reducing the cost from $2200 to $1790 a month for residents (for a one bedroom). According to the residents, travel time is approximately 12-16 minutes in the morning via the Path train.

Call ranges from 6-8 calls per month, which sucks in my opinion. The PD (and residents) say that residents leave at 5 PM every day unless on call. If there are pre-ops, you can expect to stay until about 6 PM every day. A typical day runs from 7 AM to 5:30 PM.

You do 3 months of anesthesia beginning your intern year (this program is categorical) with increasing responsibility as each month passes. You're actually added to the regular CA-x call schedule in your last month. In your first month, you take call until 9 PM. You also have to do a month of CCU and MICU.

There is no moonlighting, but a sort of odd way to make additional cash is to start IV's in the holding area as opposed to the OR. The pay is $10 per IV. Average for residents is about $150 - $200 per month. One resident made $600 a month.

As far as residents leaving, the PD said that 6 residents have left over the past 8 years. 2 or 3 were due to drug abuse. One was severely impaired in interpersonal skills. I think the other ones left for family or personal reasons. At least, this is what I was told.

According to the PD, the board certification rate is 96% with only resident failing in the past 5 years.

Pay seemed decent, PGY1 at about $51k.

So take it for what it is worth. They won't be high on my rank list, but not because I don't think I could get good training. Rather, I'm looking for a more family friendly city and program.

If you have specific questions, just ask them in this thread and I'll see if I can remember. I did try to ask a lot of questions and I wasn't able to write everything down so if you ask, it may jog something.

 

[sp1129]

Well said, "Plead the fifth." Just a couple of corrections: The PATH train is not just 12-15 min, but instead more like 20-25 min, and thats assuming there are no hold ups. Also, of the 6 or 8 residents that "left" in the past several years, 2 or 3 were indeed due to drug abuse, but others were "asked to resign." Then it was told to us that the person left for family reasons.

If you come here and decide after a year or 2 you want to transfer, you will not succeed. They don't allow people to transfer. That's why it's hard to believe anyone left voluntarily. If you do try, you will be blackballed, and the normal administrative support you would receive from a program will be pulled away and your transfer sabotaged.

 

[NotAMD]

how many weekends off do you typically get per month?

 

[anestheticman]

I could be wrong but I know SLR was 2 weekends off a month and I think SV was the same but I really didn't take good notes because I knew they were top choices for me.

 

[NotAMD]

Why are they your top choices? Manhattan location? want to go into pain?

What did you think overall of St. V's and all this controversy around the chair, does it deter you at all ?

 

[anestheticman]

mostly location

SLR higher bc of housing and interest in regional yes

 

[anestheticman]

St. V's yes I am somewhat deterred by all of the rumors but would still rank it above many other choices.

Here is the housing update:

To Our Interviewees,

When you where here I told you that I would send an email to update you about
the housing situation here at St Vincent's. As you may recall, there are two
buildings that currently house our residents: Martin Payne and Staff House.
The Martin Payne building will not house residents after this June. Staff
House will see continued use, but perhaps for only another year and a half.

During you interview I mentioned that the hospital plans to offer housing in
Jersey City in a new luxury development call Grove Pointe (see the website:
grovepointerentals.com). Jersey City has become very popular as many young
professionals from NY are choosing to live there: restaurants and amenities
abound. The hospital has taken a master lease on a large number of apartments
with an option to rent more if there is sufficient demand. These apartments
are beautiful and very convenient to Manhattan, the PATH train stops right
outside and comes quickly to the hospital. There is a health club in the
building. The hospital is subsidizing the rental costs: one bedrooms will be
$1790 per month. Our first resident has already moved in and loves his view
of Manhattan from his 25th floor apartment. Note that this housing is not
guaranteed, it is anticipated that there may be more demand than availability.
We will be sure that the Anesthesiology Department gets our "fair share".

For those who choose to live elsewhere, all the subway lines converge at 14th
Street. It is easy to get here from pretty much everywhere in the NY
metropolitan region. I live in Brooklyn Heights and get here in less than 15
minutes. The hospital is discussing plans to work with local real estate
brokers to identify apartments in the neighborhood as they become available.
There is a subsidy of $2000 per year currently being paid to those who live
outside hospital housing. I am pretty sure that this will be continued, and
perhaps increased, in the future. However, I have not yet seen it in writing.
As you well know, Craigslist is a very popular way of identifying housing
options.

I know that housing is important and I hope that this information will be
helpful to you. We look forward to match day to see who we will have the
privilege of training for the next four years.

Sincerely,
Don Mathews
Program Director

 

[NotAMD]

the housing update email essentially says, yes we no longer have manhattan subsidized housing, now jersey isnt even gauranteed, but well give you an extra 2000. at least it is something, they could just do nothing, no housing, sorry.

 

[anestheticman]

bump

any other thoughts?

 

[welovelamarodom]

bump

any other thoughts?

i guess there's a newer thread on this topic started by one of the SV residents. there are what, like 130+ anesthesia programs out there, if even 1% of this thread is true how could ANYONE possibly justify ranking them at the top of their list?