Stanford/Kaiser vs UCLA Harbor vs Harvard/BIDMC (Beth Israel Deaconess)

[Emergentleman]

Just wondering what current applicants and residents think about these 3 programs: Stanford, UCLA Harbor, BIDMC.

Not trolling a "which is best" but curious about what other people think about the +/-, unique characteristics, and gestalt.

Thanks!

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[old_boy]

Just wondering what current applicants and residents think about these 3 programs: Stanford, UCLA Harbor, BIDMC.

Not trolling a "which is best" but curious about what other people think about the +/-, unique characteristics, and gestalt.

Thanks!

I'll bite. I interviewed at Stanford and Harbor. I got a positive feeling from both.

Stanford:
+: nice residents/people, good academic opportunities (including u/s, international, wilderness), a few big name faculty (aurbach), close to SF, well funded, good pay, Valley looks like a kick ass hospital/ED with lots of pathology, 3 years, great variety of practice environments with their 3 hospital model
-: palo alto, palo alto, palo alto, not the big dog in the hospital, stanford ED is small, not an actual department, questionable rep around CA compared to a few of the powerhouse programs (which may be outdated but still persists), no longer rotating at SFG, lots of driving

Harbor: amazing program
+: location is awesome, amazing patients with great pathology who are very thankful, amazing faculty/teaching, very "hands-on", talented and interesting residents, EM is big dog in hospital but off service rotations are still pretty good, 3-yr program with limitless opportunities post graduation given Harbor name
-: switching to 4-yr program next year so may be some issues with didactic curriculum, ED is small and old (new ED in the works - I actually liked the old ED), less attending oversight than some places, all paper charting, I did not get the feeling that the program was flush with cash to shower on its residents (but at least any risk of the hospital closing seems to have faded)

What did you think?

 

[quicknss]

what sort of issues did you think would happen with the didactics during the switch?

 

[old_boy]

what sort of issues did you think would happen with the didactics during the switch?

Probably very minor ones. They are going to have two didactics curriculums going at the same time with some overlap. I see the potential for duplicate lectures/cases and that kind of thing. Really doubt it'll be an issue though.

It will kind of suck for next year's (starting 2012) intern class though. They'll say goodbye to their seniors in a few years and then still have 2 years of being the senior residents. The good news is I suppose that there will be a year without Harbor residents graduates so employers and fellowship directors and whatnot will be itching to hire them. ...plus it's one of the best residency programs in the country so it won't be that bad 😀

 

[Emergentleman]

Thanks for the solid feedback so far - agree with lots of what's been said. I would clearly be thrilled to match at any of them (and many others, these were just similar ones that came up for me and other people i talked to). My two cents:

BIDMC -
Pos Thoughtfully designed residency by Rosen and Wolfe aiming for high yield training without the crap, really think the 3+1 is a fantastic concept (and truly a 3+1 where 4th year serve 1/2 time jr attending with equivalent salary plus 1/2 time academic pursuit including MPH/MPP/etc for the +1 vs other places who market a 3+1 which is really a 4), strong independence managing dept in 3rd year, best IT/workflow anywhere, powerful academic setting BI with high acuity/sick older medical population with decent amoutn of time at several community sites that fill in the experiences, links to Harvard resources, lots of opportunities for research and other projects but didn't seem too heavy handed, awesome group of residents who are interested, interesting, and balanced, and supported incredibly well financially and emotionally by program, growing opps for int'l; relatively young program but strong reputation already

Neg Boston weather, considerably older population at BI (although this could be + or -), didn't seem as US heavy as other places, less int'l/global involvement (but growing, sweet!)


Harbor
Pos Incredible clinical training/setting/population, really high volume, super high acuity, intense ER training with early development of independence but with really involved and dedicated attending support, serving lower income/underserved Hispanic/AA communities, solild exposure to trauma, amazing residents again as BI and Stanford, brilliant, passionate, but also just damn cool people who know how to have a good time and support each other, close to beach communities, long history of success with great alum base

Neg LA traffic, lots of off service 1st year including ward time, hectic/cramped/perhaps insane ED (although getting new ED summer '12 I believe), somewhat more traditional didactices although changing, and the move to a 4 year program which has been nicely discussed (appreciated the PD's honesty about needing a 4 year for staffing the new ED volume, but underscores the volume and flow problems in the current setup)


Stanford
Pos Great mix of clinical sites really unique in residencies (their county has really surprising high volume, high acuity, lots of trauma, underserved Hispanic/Asian community; Kaiser provides more community model with interesting integration and efficiency of Kaiser system in beautiful new hospital; Stanford has very academic/tertiary setting with wonderful opps to learn from consultants, etc), fantastic int'l opps, great wilderness leadership, good US division, good sim/education division, significant amount of elective and research time for 3 year program, also amazing residents like other 2 - smart, passionate, but friendly, collegial; program really takes care of residents probably #1 of any place I've seen from $ and benefits to faculty support, would kill to move to the Bay Area

Neg Most time is at Stanford which has it's +/- - more involvement of consultants, more tertiary style of practice, less efficient, lower acuity of patients, frustrating design of ED I think from what I saw (although again balanced with other sites well); academic culture (can be +/-), good but not great reputation across country? A 3 hour tour 2nd only to Gilligan's island (not that interview day tours matter)

 

[surfbro]

I knew there was going to be a switch to a 4 year program, but the PD wasnt sure if it was next year or not. Interesting.This was back in October though.

Did the PD let you recent interviewees know what new projected date (month and year) for the new hospital move in?

Also, any updates on the parking issue, this was a real pain back in Oct?

Were there any other new issues that may have been brought up?

thanks for anybodys input


Best of luck to everybody as they start making the rank lists!

 

[Richspiders07]

Did the PD let you recent interviewees know what new projected date (month and year) for the new hospital move in?

I was told Oct 2013 a few weeks ago... but nobody seemed optimistic about that date

 

[EMRocksmyworld]

Probably very minor ones. They are going to have two didactics curriculums going at the same time with some overlap. I see the potential for duplicate lectures/cases and that kind of thing. Really doubt it'll be an issue though.

It will kind of suck for next year's (starting 2012) intern class though. They'll say goodbye to their seniors in a few years and then still have 2 years of being the senior residents. The good news is I suppose that there will be a year without Harbor residents graduates so employers and fellowship directors and whatnot will be itching to hire them. ...plus it's one of the best residency programs in the country so it won't be that bad 😀

Actually- my understanding is that there will be TWO classes for several years. The last PGY 1-3 class will start in 2011, then a PGY 1-4 and PGY 2-4 class will both be accepted to start in 2012, so that there will two PGY-2 classes in 2012 and two PGY-3 classes in 2013 (then the class that entered in 2011 will graduate in 2014 and the class that started as PGY-2s in 2012 will be 4th years during 2014-2015). Only problem I can see with this is that since the new ED won't be open yet, there may not be quite enough space (although there are always plenty of patients) for 30 PGY-2s in 2012-2013. Otherwise sounds pretty cool to me. Again, this is my understanding from interviewing there (and it was NOT set in stone) so it may change. Awesome awesome program, although I'm sure there will be some kinks to work out with the switchover from 3 to 4 years.

On the subject of Harbor, did anyone get a sense of what kinds of people typically choose Harbor vs LAC and vice versa? And how do people decide between these 2?

 

[quicknss]

as of now the people who choose Harbor want 3 years and the people who want 4 do USC because there are very few differences in them. A little more personable at Harbor but just as busy as USC

 

[old_boy]

Actually- my understanding is that there will be TWO classes for several years. The last PGY 1-3 class will start in 2011, then a PGY 1-4 and PGY 2-4 class will both be accepted to start in 2012, so that there will two PGY-2 classes in 2012 and two PGY-3 classes in 2013 (then the class that entered in 2011 will graduate in 2014 and the class that started as PGY-2s in 2012 will be 4th years during 2014-2015). Only problem I can see with this is that since the new ED won't be open yet, there may not be quite enough space (although there are always plenty of patients) for 30 PGY-2s in 2012-2013. Otherwise sounds pretty cool to me. Again, this is my understanding from interviewing there (and it was NOT set in stone) so it may change. Awesome awesome program, although I'm sure there will be some kinks to work out with the switchover from 3 to 4 years.

Huh, that wasn't my understanding when I interviewed there but you could be right. Can anyone confirm that this is the way it will happen?

On the subject of Harbor, did anyone get a sense of what kinds of people typically choose Harbor vs LAC and vice versa? And how do people decide between these 2?

I liked the residents at both programs and didn't see a huge difference in the residents that I met. I think the experience would be very different though, at least for the next few years before the new Harbor ED opens. LAC's ED is huge with multiple pods, compared to the cramped and open Harbor ED. Resources at LAC seem much greater (20+ u/s machines, lectures videotaped, tons of supplies). I spent time shadowing in both and I also felt like attending coverage was greater in LAC with the Harbor residents doing more on their own, but I only spent a few hours in each so hard to tell. Certainly not all patients get seen by an attending at both places, which I think is kind of cool but a little scary, especially compared to some non-county programs where residents really have their hands held even with straight forward patients and every patient gets a full visit and note from an attending. There is the 3 vs. 4 year thing too, and shift length is 12 hrs at LAC and 10 hrs at Harbor (although more shifts a month). I think you'd get kick ass training at both places and all the residents and faculty that I met seemed really cool - just can't say for sure if there was a big difference personality wise. Talking to residents, it seems like most residents at each place ranked their program #1 or 2. I'm sure neither program has to go very far down their rank list to fill and both are among the top programs in the country in my opinion.

 

[xyxyxy]

Hi,

Can anyone confirm when harbor will be switching to a 4 year program. I have not heard a definite date for either the incoming class of 2012 or 2013. If anyone has talked to the PD and heard a definite date, it would be great to know. Thanks.

 

[quicknss]

2012

 

[13770]

2012

 

[Emergent]

Actually- my understanding is that there will be TWO classes for several years. The last PGY 1-3 class will start in 2011, then a PGY 1-4 and PGY 2-4 class will both be accepted to start in 2012, so that there will two PGY-2 classes in 2012 and two PGY-3 classes in 2013 (then the class that entered in 2011 will graduate in 2014 and the class that started as PGY-2s in 2012 will be 4th years during 2014-2015). Only problem I can see with this is that since the new ED won't be open yet, there may not be quite enough space (although there are always plenty of patients) for 30 PGY-2s in 2012-2013. Otherwise sounds pretty cool to me. Again, this is my understanding from interviewing there (and it was NOT set in stone) so it may change. Awesome awesome program, although I'm sure there will be some kinks to work out with the switchover from 3 to 4 years.

On the subject of Harbor, did anyone get a sense of what kinds of people typically choose Harbor vs LAC and vice versa? And how do people decide between these 2?

Can anyone confirm if Harbor will be accepting a PGY-1 and a PGY-2 class concurrently next year? Will the PGY-2 class be the same size as the incoming? thanks

 

[Emergent]

Bump. Anyone?

 

[DrBeat]

Application process for away-rotations for UCLA-Harbor has opened for students that would be starting in 2012 and there doesn't seem to be any updates, announcements, or changes to curriculum on the Harbor-UCLA emergency medicine website. Anyone know when there will be an official message about what is going to be offered for the class that starts in 2012? There are conflicting reports in this thread.

 

[winkleweizen]

So Harbors curriculum website still states its a 3 year program..if im applying this year for matriculation into the class of 2013, will I be applying for a 3 year or 4 year program?

 

[Dane07MD]

4 year. I'm 99% sure the four year thing has been solidified. I guess not just updated on the website.

Someone who knows otherwise should chime in...