Stanford MD/MBA

[Nexus777]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Even if a program doesn't have a formal joint program, is it possible to do the dual degree in 5 years, such as at Stanford?

 

[DrBowtie]

Even if a program doesn't have a formal joint program, is it possible to do the dual degree in 5 years, such as at Stanford?

PM mward04. He is doing an informal at Emory. He'd probably be able to tell you the best info.

 

[Law2Doc]

Even if a program doesn't have a formal joint program, is it possible to do the dual degree in 5 years, such as at Stanford?

There are a variety of MBA programs, some are two years some are slightly shorter. But because the MBA world is rankings oriented, if you plan to work on the business side, you may be more interested in the more established formats, which tend to be 2 years. Probably the best advice, if you don't get into a formal MD/MBA program is to hold off on the MBA until after your residency, and see if you still want it then.

 

[Nexus777]

There are a variety of MBA programs, some are two years some are slightly shorter. But because the MBA world is rankings oriented, if you plan to work on the business side, you may be more interested in the more established formats, which tend to be 2 years. Probably the best advice, if you don't get into a formal MD/MBA program is to hold off on the MBA until after your residency, and see if you still want it then.

What makes them take 2 years - just the coursework? Is it possible to take additional classes with the medical school classes and in effect, stretch the MBA over 3 years - some classes during the 2 preclinical years and one additional year as well?

 

[Law2Doc]

What makes them take 2 years - just the coursework? Is it possible to take additional classes with the medical school classes and in effect, stretch the MBA over 3 years - some classes during the 2 preclinical years and one additional year as well?

Unless you are a work maniac, you will not be able to take many more classes during the preclinical years than the normal load. Maybe one or two, over the course of both years, but that won't shorten the business school down a year. Med school is hard enough without trying to tack on graduate business classes. Business school can involve lectures, homework, tests, problem sets, group projects and presentations -- easy enough if you do it alone, but not some token add on you can squeeze into an otherwise very full med school schedule. And without a lot of background, you can end up struggling in certain classes like finance or accounting (required first year classes at many business schools), and you don't really have the time to struggle on something else during med school, as there is enough struggling in that alone. Not a great idea unless you really really are going to need the MBA for something specific, and there is a really really good reason you need it faster than the two years.

 

[Nexus777]

Unless you are a work maniac, you will not be able to take many more classes during the preclinical years than the normal load. Maybe one or two, over the course of both years, but that won't shorten the business school down a year. Med school is hard enough without trying to tack on graduate business classes. Business school can involve lectures, homework, tests, problem sets, group projects and presentations -- easy enough if you do it alone, but not some token add on you can squeeze into an otherwise very full med school schedule. And without a lot of background, you can end up struggling in certain classes like finance or accounting (required first year classes at many business schools), and you don't really have the time to struggle on something else during med school, as there is enough struggling in that alone. Not a great idea unless you really really are going to need the MBA for something specific, and there is a really really good reason you need it faster than the two years.

I guess I am looking to replace the time that students spend on research with B-school classes. Tons of motivated students who are gunning for their top residencies are trying to get research done on top of their med school curriculum, get papers out, etc. Why is it not possible to "substitute" that research time with business classes?

 

[Law2Doc]

I guess I am looking to replace the time that students spend on research with B-school classes. Tons of motivated students who are gunning for their top residencies are trying to get research done on top of their med school curriculum, get papers out, etc. Why is it not possible to "substitute" that research time with business classes?

Part of the problem is scheduling (research can be done any time, classes and group presentation meetings not so much), part is that you can more easilly not do research for a week or two if you need to for exam reasons -- you have some flexibility there you will not in a business school. Part is that you will be pretty screwed if you have a big exam in two different schools in the same week. Also bear in mind that a relatively small minority of students in med school do research during the academic year actually -- most do it over the first summer or else take off a year somewhere along the road. So again, it is perhaps possible to squeeze in a course or two, but it won't save you a whole year by any stretch of the imagination, and in my opinion would be a bad idea. The goal (hopefully) isn't to flounder through two schools rather than excel at one. Although easier than med school, I suspect you are underestimating the level of difficulty of graduate business programs.

 

[Nexus777]

Part of the problem is scheduling (research can be done any time, classes and group presentation meetings not so much), part is that you can more easilly not do research for a week or two if you need to for exam reasons -- you have some flexibility there you will not in a business school. Part is that you will be pretty screwed if you have a big exam in two different schools in the same week. Also bear in mind that a relatively small minority of students in med school do research during the academic year actually -- most do it over the first summer or else take off a year somewhere along the road. So again, it is perhaps possible to squeeze in a course or two, but it won't save you a whole year by any stretch of the imagination, and in my opinion would be a bad idea. The goal (hopefully) isn't to flounder through two schools rather than excel at one. Although easier than med school, I suspect you are underestimating the level of difficulty of graduate business programs.

Ok, I agree that research can be done at any time. However, most students will do research throughout their academic year as well as in the summer in order to get significant research experience, at least in the medical schools I've seen. Also, I feel like this is the reason medical school is pass fail - to allow students to delve into other interests that will ultimately make them better workers in the medical profession. At some schools, they actively push you to take extra coursework if you are seeking a dual degree. This isn't much different than MD/PhDs at some schools who are advised to take graduate level courses along with their med school classes in order to save time, and the adcom admissions staff have said, "That's why we're pass/fail these two years, use it to your advantage." In the end, we all have to nail the boards anyways, which is just time studying the concrete material. I'm not saying to skip the 1st two years, but one can take them more relaxed than usual since there are no consequences. If MD/PhDs are advised to do this, I don't see why it should be a problem for MD/MBAs.

 

[Law2Doc]

Ok, I agree that research can be done at any time. However, most students will do research throughout their academic year as well as in the summer in order to get significant research experience, at least in the medical schools I've seen. Also, I feel like this is the reason medical school is pass fail - to allow students to delve into other interests that will ultimately make them better workers in the medical profession. At some schools, they actively push you to take extra coursework if you are seeking a dual degree. This isn't much different than MD/PhDs at some schools who are advised to take graduate level courses along with their med school classes in order to save time, and the adcom admissions staff have said, "That's why we're pass/fail these two years, use it to your advantage." In the end, we all have to nail the boards anyways, which is just time studying the concrete material. I'm not saying to skip the 1st two years, but one can take them more relaxed than usual since there are no consequences. If MD/PhDs are advised to do this, I don't see why it should be a problem for MD/MBAs.

A lot of this post is simply not accurate. First MOST students at most med schools don't do much research during the academic year. Some do, but they are in the distinct minority. Many more do research over the summer or take a year off someplace, if they do research at all. Second, saying the first two years have "no consequences" is inaccurate. They are less important than some other factors, but most schools will rank you, and the rank will play some role in residency options. You also take a board exam after the second year on the material in the prior two years, and so if you didn't learn it solidly during those years, you may have trouble doing well on the boards (which has significantly more implications in residency selection). There is quite a bit of correlation between the material you learn in those years and the "black letter" material you need to know for the boards, and if you slid by during the first two years, you may have too much to learn at the end. Also don't take for granted that you can pass med school classes without putting the time in -- a number of people every year end up repeating classes in the following summer due to not giving the material adequate time. Finally, bear in mind that a lot of the MD/PhD types may be contemplating going into scientific fields, not medicine, and so they may not be gunning for the more competitive residencies; as a result they may not care if they are ranked at the bottom of the class.

 

[Nexus777]

A lot of this post is simply not accurate. First MOST students at most med schools don't do much research during the academic year. Some do, but they are in the distinct minority. Many more do research over the summer or take a year off someplace, if they do research at all. Second, saying the first two years have "no consequences" is inaccurate. They are less important than some other factors, but most schools will rank you, and the rank will play some role in residency options. You also take a board exam after the second year on the material in the prior two years, and so if you didn't learn it solidly during those years, you may have trouble doing well on the boards (which has significantly more implications in residency selection). There is quite a bit of correlation between the material you learn in those years and the "black letter" material you need to know for the boards, and if you slid by during the first two years, you may have too much to learn at the end. Also don't take for granted that you can pass med school classes without putting the time in -- a number of people every year end up repeating classes in the following summer due to not giving the material adequate time. Finally, bear in mind that a lot of the MD/PhD types may be contemplating going into scientific fields, not medicine, and so they may not be gunning for the more competitive residencies; as a result they may not care if they are ranked at the bottom of the class.

MD/PhDs are still gunning for, and still get, top residencies while still being ranked in the middle of the pack. With all the things that residency directors can select from (quality of letters, board scores, clinical grades - rank will play little role). However, I'm sure when I say that, you will consider ALL 150 med schools in this country, so let me narrow it down. Let's subtract out most med schools and lets consider only the top 20 schools. I was wrong to assume that everyone does research, because of my limited perception of "everyone". Let's consider those kids who got into the top 20 schools because research was the biggest component of their med school app - most likely, they will continue on to do research. Even if this is an incorrect statement, let's consider those schools within the top 20 that highly push their students to do research in their first two years while taking classes, or more abstractly, push their students to do "something" outside of class besides study. Why not take 1, at most 2, more classes during this time, take advantage of pass fail (provided you are still smart enough to learn B's worth of material for your med school exams), and use this time to learn additional information that you wouldn't have known. I would rather learn 7 classes at B/B+ level than 5 classes at A/A+ level, and get an extra experience out of it.

 

[Law2Doc]

MD/PhDs are still gunning for, and still get, top residencies while still being ranked in the middle of the pack. With all the things that residency directors can select from (quality of letters, board scores, clinical grades - rank will play little role). However, I'm sure when I say that, you will consider ALL 150 med schools in this country, so let me narrow it down. Let's subtract out most med schools and lets consider only the top 20 schools. I was wrong to assume that everyone does research, because of my limited perception of "everyone". Let's consider those kids who got into the top 20 schools because research was the biggest component of their med school app - most likely, they will continue on to do research. Even if this is an incorrect statement, let's consider those schools within the top 20 that highly push their students to do research in their first two years while taking classes, or more abstractly, push their students to do "something" outside of class besides study. Why not take 1, at most 2, more classes during this time, take advantage of pass fail (provided you are still smart enough to learn B's worth of material for your med school exams), and use this time to learn additional information that you wouldn't have known. I would rather learn 7 classes at B/B+ level than 5 classes at A/A+ level, and get an extra experience out of it.

Are you in med school yet? If not, you will learn that the ability to do less work and earn a B versus more work to earn an A is not as linear as you think. At any rate, from my experience you are wrong about most folks doing research (even at the top 20 places). But I think I clarified on the other thread why the business school addition might not be useful for you. Good luck.

 

[beetlerum]

law2doc is right

Though, ironically, I'm not sure if law2doc is in med school yet, and I don't know what personal experience law2doc has with MD/MBA programs. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe law2doc is in a MD/MBA program.

Personally, I think the OP needs to decide if the MBA is worth doing, and if it is, it's worth doing whether it takes 5 or 6 years. I don't understand how the extra tuition and effort could be worth it for 5 years but not for 6. Of course, the OP may want to finish it as soon as possible. I just don't understand how that one extra year should be such a pressing, deciding factor now, even before applying.

I think the MBA could add a lot of value for the OP. Yes, in theory, you could get a bunch of books and learn about business on your own. But in reality, it's unlikely you'll spend nearly as much time studying business as you would with the joint degree. You might end up spending none. Also, it adds a lot of credibility, especially a Stanford MBA. Perhaps it seems irrational given what even MBAs say about the MBA, but it does. And you benefit from meeting a new group of people with business backgrounds.

Not sure about that "interpreter" theory. Whether an MD and an MBA work together, despite different cultures, will depend little on whether there's an MD/MBA there to intermediate.

 

[worriedwell]

law2doc is definitely right regardless of what level he is in. By far and away the most common amount of time spent doing research is summers, usually you can block out 3 months btween 1st and 2nd year and some of the top schools finish the first two years in 1.5 years, thus leaving about a 6month to 1 year period near the end of med school to do something scholarly.

if you are heavily involved in something meaningful or interesting outside of your normal classes (in research, or potentially in something else) then some rare students continue working on some project here and there, but its usually on things that are on ones own terms that are flexible. Extracurriculars and community outreach projects fall into this category and many people partake, so its not like there is no time to do other things, but formally taking classes and being responsible to go to them and take exams is much harder to organize that you realize.

You just can't avoid having some conflicts with exams and the like, but of course, nothing is impossible if you are motivated.

On the other hand, if its strategically that you are trying to do this, don't assume MBA style activities are neccessarily giving you a leg up for residencies the way that PHDs or research will overcome certain other shortcomings in your application. They are not equivocal generally speaking in the somewhat biased minds of most academic MDs. This is a gross generalization but definitely realistic to understand. Do an mba for your own interest, but if clinical medicine is for you, don't short change your clinical training to be doing finance.

What I mean is, don't water down both your MBA and your MD.

 

[peacefuljourney]

Hi.

I did my MBA at Queen's U in Canada (like US ivy league - well at least in thier minds...; anyhow highly ranked program). I went full time 2 years. I'm now doing my MD.

I would say my MBA was tougher - for me. Your affinity may lie in the other direction - ie MD tougher.

By the way, you can often shave off a year of your MBA by doing a couple of years of an undergrad commerce degree first. If you do that - commerce degree plus pre-med electives then you keep both doors open as long as possible. Most meds programs just want limited undergrad science courses (Chem, Biol, whatever). This varies greatly from school to school but it's worth asking this type of question when thinking about schools/programs. Also, for both programs you need kickass marks SO take the courses that you can do well in and check out published student grades in different classes and sections - usually these are available in department secretary offices. Take the time to do this.


BUT the key thing I wanted to bring out in addition to our colleagues' comments is that the 2 programs aren't very compatable. Very different mindsets, materials/content and approach. Queen's was highly competitive and MAJOR groupwork in ALL classes. I don't find meds near as competitive and the philosophy and folks are much 'kinder' for lack of a better word. I wouldn't expect your MBA colleagues to cut you slack because you are busy with other committments.

If integrated programs exist - ie MD/MBA programs that were designed from the onset to mesh together - those might work.

MD/Phd programs are intertwined and there is lots of overlap and synergy.

I'd approach it from the angle of looking where you want to be. Where is your real interest?

Higher level business folks like to see an MBA - it is a required credential for many higher level jobs - Director plus. But of course there are many successul folks out there without one.

I'm actually worried how I will explain my 'diverging' degrees and career change...

Good luck. You're so organized thinking about this at your stage! Cool.

S-

 

[Nexus777]

Stanford MD/MBA - here I come!!!