Stanford University PGY-2 for July 2017 opening

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obviously I think everyone agrees the expansion of residency positions without a similar lack of job opportunities is bad for our field. However I would point out two things.

1) There actually is a good supply of jobs, its is just in in geographically undesirable areas. I see tons of jobs with good pay posted in places I don't want to live. This seems to be a theme in medicine in general...

2) Don't hate the player hate the game. This isn't really the (many many not just Stanford) programs that are screwing us all over. It's the system. They are just taking advantage of the system handed to them and playing by the rules in place. I believe this has been debated over and over on this message board in the past on other threads. There are a lot of crappy systems in place in society (think, electoral college where someone can get 3 million less votes but still be president...). People just play by the rules of the system they are in and will take advantage of those rules for their self/institutional interests.

Someone do a root cause analysis on this, but I can guarantee you the blame shouldn't be on Stanford or any other program that is just taking advantage of a system in place to get more cheap labor. The root cause is higher than that. Someone else knows better than me but I believe it has something to do with ACGME/SCAROP/Illuminati/Harambe
First hand knowledge of the ACGME role in resident complement decisions. The ACGME is forbidden from considering workforce supply when it decides to approve a new position. If the institution has the appropriate infrastructure, resources, faculty and patients then they must approve a requested position. The "blame" to the extent that it exists lies with SCAROP.

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First hand knowledge of the ACGME role in resident complement decisions. The ACGME is forbidden from considering workforce supply when it decides to approve a new position. If the institution has the appropriate infrastructure, resources, faculty and patients then they must approve a requested position. The "blame" to the extent that it exists lies with SCAROP.

One can also blame the faculty and residents of the expanding institution. If the faculty and residents are against an expansion, I guarantee you the institution would not expand. But alas the faculty want "coverage" and the residents want more research time. So screw the field let's expand.
 
Sorry if it has been said, but everyone should realize that these types of fellowships and the majority of fellowships in Rad Onc are not ACGME acredited. Program are just making this stuff up out of the blue. Someone should be sure to publicize this and if anyone has pull this kind of thing should be publicized and banned. Also don't forget that old docs (really really bad ones too) are doing way less work than you and have made major major $$ and will continue to prevent you from advancement.
 
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Sorry if it has been said, but everyone should realize that these types of fellowships and the majority of fellowships in Rad Onc are not ACGME acredited. Program are just making this stuff up out of the blue. Someone should be sure to publicize this and if anyone has pull this kind of thing should be publicized and banned. Also don't forget that old docs (really really bad ones too) are doing way less work than you and have made major major $$ and will continue to prevent you from advancement.
The ACGME does not accredit Radiation Oncology fellowships. There are no criteria; making it up is correct.
 
All that the opening of a new PGY-2 spot means is that the Chair and Department of Rad Onc of Stanford do not give a damn about the future of Radiation Oncology as a field.
 
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All that the opening of a new PGY-2 spot means is that the Chair and Department of Rad Onc of Stanford do not give a damn about the future of Radiation Oncology as a field.

That is correct. I guess the question is, should they? I think they should, but don't forget these are greedy little people. Thats how incentives work. Everyone should be supportive of a single payer system. It is the only thing that will take this bull crap of $$$ out of medicine where it doesnt even belong.
 
How long is long enough to learn the practice of advanced circle drawing? Before it was 3. Currently it's 4, but rapidly trending toward 5. I guess the hope is we'll be able to keep the advanced circle drawing course to the same time frame as the advanced brain surgery course.

My circles always end up outside the lines... I'm glad I justify this in my head to account for motion, but really I just have a nervous twitch. Damn coffee!
 
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.

1) There actually is a good supply of jobs, its is just in in geographically undesirable areas. I see tons of jobs with good pay posted in places I don't want to live. This seems to be a theme in medicine in general...

Rad onc just gets it worse given the smaller size of the field and the lower demand per capita population
 
Educate me - seems like if you're a strong enough candidate, you're going to get a good job after residency, regardless of whether or not you're competing against a few more applicants/residents. So why all the fear? Salaries not being as high because of increased supply? It seems like we do pretty well for ourselves...
 
Educate me - seems like if you're a strong enough candidate, you're going to get a good job after residency, regardless of whether or not you're competing against a few more applicants/residents. So why all the fear? Salaries not being as high because of increased supply? It seems like we do pretty well for ourselves...
Do you care about where you practice? If not, you're absolutely correct. It's just that some of us would rather not practice in WI/IA/MI/MN etc and would prefer FL/CA/NC/SC etc
 
Don't hate the player hate the game. This isn't really the (many many not just Stanford) programs that are screwing us all over. It's the system. They are just taking advantage of the system handed to them and playing by the rules in place. I believe this has been debated over and over on this message board in the past on other threads. There are a lot of crappy systems in place in society (think, electoral college where someone can get 3 million less votes but still be president...). People just play by the rules of the system they are in and will take advantage of those rules for their self/institutional interests.

Someone do a root cause analysis on this, but I can guarantee you the blame shouldn't be on Stanford or any other program that is just taking advantage of a system in place to get more cheap labor. The root cause is higher than that. Someone else knows better than me but I believe it has something to do with ACGME/SCAROP/Illuminati/Harambe

Does this make it OK? Does this make it justified? Do other desirable specialties have a similar philosophy of "the game"? Is there transparency in this recruiting process? Are the PGY2s or fellows fully informed on their future salary and job prospects in the Bay area?
 
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Educate me - seems like if you're a strong enough candidate, you're going to get a good job after residency, regardless of whether or not you're competing against a few more applicants/residents. So why all the fear? Salaries not being as high because of increased supply? It seems like we do pretty well for ourselves...

Sure, settle in.

The fear that there are not enough jobs for the amount of trainees is based on objective information as well as subjective.
1) The 2014 resident survey, published in 2015, which showed 33% of graduates did not get the region they wanted, 16% could not get academics, and 7% felt they were forced into fellowship (citation, http://www.redjournal.org/article/S0360-3016(15)00337-5/abstract).
2) The updated supply and demand forecast (citation http://www.redjournal.org/article/S0360-3016(16)00233-9/abstract).
3) Since both the survey and the model, residency expansion has only continued! Hello to SUNY Stony Brook and new Stanford position.
4) The explosion of fellowships, which are not accredited, including such blatant manipulative ones as 'in-patient rad onc' courtesy of columbia. There is no major subspecialization in our field outside pediatrics, which is contracting. Maybe you can educate me on the value of SBRT, SRS and 'palliative care' fellowships. I would truly like your opinion as an attending in a field that allows programs to graduate such substandard residents / adhere to substandard ACGME guidelines as to make it even possible that such basic parts of our field become a fellowship.
5) The fact that the labor market has already been destroyed in similiar situations (delayed entry into workforce in Canada https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26238955, the lengthening of residency in the mid 1990s in the US)
6) The rise of exploitative positions. It has been mentioned in this thread about the 90K stanford job. That is pretty well known in the field at this point, and it was real (if it still is I cannot vouch). But it was 90K for scut attending work without even the veneer of education that these fake fellowships apply, meant to take maximal advantage of a desirable location.
7) The fact that hypofractionation requires less manpower and is here to stay, and is good for patients.
8) That all of this is occuring as student debt increases year after year, reimbursement is decreasing year after year, and payment models are being explored whose cost savings rely on a gatekeeper who is incentivized not to refer patients out (Oncology home model)

Guaranteeing a great salary? The previous generation had that feast. When trainees are forced into fellowship carrying $200K plus debt, already with 5 years of residency, fighting for crumbs from an older generation not inclined to retire and no central body (ASTRO / ACGME / SCAROP) is even bothering to detail this is happening or providing objective information on the inability to work in large parts of the country, then fear is clearly justified. And the fear is amplified by anger of the blatant disregard of at least part of the older generation who could care less about the new grads by continuing expansion, as Stanford has decided with all this information available. I did not notice in their advertisement they were screening for people to serve in 'undesirable' parts of the country where there is a labor shortage (or so is claimed), did you? Also did not see any guidance from then on any of the published points I cited. When the supply/demand model from 2007 showed an increased demand, it was plastered pretty predominately on the ASTRO website. Now that the model predicts oversupply the same gravitas does not seem to be given to that information, and I sure don't hear the faculty where I am discussing this or being honest with medical students.

To top all this off, this is bad not only for residents and new graduates but for society. It is a waste of tax payer money on some level, because not all these positions are self funded. It increases health expenditures by increasing utilization (people with 200K debt can't survive on 90K, nor should they after 8 years of schooling and 5 years of residency), which is a known phenomenon and a generally accepted driver of health costs by CMS (and in response to radiatormike in the other thread - I sent the email and concede your points, but have a follow up call to an aide). Most of all people, like myself, feel betrayed. This isn't hunger games - if the field is bloated and the only jobs are in out of the way places, make that known broadly and honestly, recruit accordingly, and don't grind bright people down into your little scut monkey, accepting half the salary of 5 years ago with more work, and then throw your hands up when they complain. And while you may not control this directly, funding for research and research positions have also been cut as reimbursements are cut, so that having an academic career today is substantially harder than even 10 years ago, but infinitely so compared to 20, or roughly the generation of seniors making the choices now.

If you want to have an open competition for jobs, and not entrenched seniority, be my guest and your argument may have merit. But that is not how radiation oncology works. You may do well for yourself, but the guy who took the 90K job at Stanford that year, or the people forced to fellowship, or the new residents who work hard and publish and get satellite jobs when a senior physician who is coasting will not be forced out until they retire may disagree with you. That is not a function of ability, that is a function of an entrenched senior work force using residency expansion to pad their lifestyle as long as possible. Ability has nothing to do with it.
 
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Good post. Thanks.

Sure, settle in.

The fear that there are not enough jobs for the amount of trainees is based on objective information as well as subjective.
1) The 2014 resident survey, published in 2015, which showed 33% of graduates did not get the region they wanted, 16% could not get academics, and 7% felt they were forced into fellowship (citation, http://www.redjournal.org/article/S0360-3016(15)00337-5/abstract).
2) The updated supply and demand forecast (citation http://www.redjournal.org/article/S0360-3016(16)00233-9/abstract).
3) Since both the survey and the model, residency expansion has only continued! Hello to SUNY Stony Brook and new Stanford position.
4) The explosion of fellowships, which are not accredited, including such blatant manipulative ones as 'in-patient rad onc' courtesy of columbia. There is no major subspecialization in our field outside pediatrics, which is contracting. Maybe you can educate me on the value of SBRT, SRS and 'palliative care' fellowships. I would truly like your opinion as an attending in a field that allows programs to graduate such substandard residents / adhere to substandard ACGME guidelines as to make it even possible that such basic parts of our field become a fellowship.
5) The fact that the labor market has already been destroyed in similiar situations (delayed entry into workforce in Canada https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26238955, the lengthening of residency in the mid 1990s in the US)
6) The rise of exploitative positions. It has been mentioned in this thread about the 90K stanford job. That is pretty well known in the field at this point, and it was real (if it still is I cannot vouch). But it was 90K for scut attending work without even the veneer of education that these fake fellowships apply, meant to take maximal advantage of a desirable location.
7) The fact that hypofractionation requires less manpower and is here to stay, and is good for patients.
8) That all of this is occuring as student debt increases year after year, reimbursement is decreasing year after year, and payment models are being explored whose cost savings rely on a gatekeeper who is incentivized not to refer patients out (Oncology home model)

Guaranteeing a great salary? The previous generation had that feast. When trainees are forced into fellowship carrying $200K plus debt, already with 5 years of residency, fighting for crumbs from an older generation not inclined to retire and no central body (ASTRO / ACGME / SCAROP) is even bothering to detail this is happening or providing objective information on the inability to work in large parts of the country, then fear is clearly justified. And the fear is amplified by anger of the blatant disregard of at least part of the older generation who could care less about the new grads by continuing expansion, as Stanford has decided with all this information available. I did not notice in their advertisement they were screening for people to serve in 'undesirable' parts of the country where there is a labor shortage (or so is claimed), did you? Also did not see any guidance from then on any of the published points I cited. When the supply/demand model from 2007 showed an increased demand, it was plastered pretty predominately on the ASTRO website. Now that the model predicts oversupply the same gravitas does not seem to be given to that information, and I sure don't hear the faculty where I am discussing this or being honest with medical students.

To top all this off, this is bad not only for residents and new graduates but for society. It is a waste of tax payer money on some level, because not all these positions are self funded. It increases health expenditures by increasing utilization (people with 200K debt can't survive on 90K, nor should they after 8 years of schooling and 5 years of residency), which is a known phenomenon and a generally accepted driver of health costs by CMS (and in response to radiatormike in the other thread - I sent the email and concede your points, but have a follow up call to an aide). Most of all people, like myself, feel betrayed. This isn't hunger games - if the field is bloated and the only jobs are in out of the way places, make that known broadly and honestly, recruit accordingly, and don't grind bright people down into your little scut monkey, accepting half the salary of 5 years ago with more work, and then throw your hands up when they complain. And while you may not control this directly, funding for research and research positions have also been cut as reimbursements are cut, so that having an academic career today is substantially harder than even 10 years ago, but infinitely so compared to 20, or roughly the generation of seniors making the choices now.

If you want to have an open competition for jobs, and not entrenched seniority, be my guest and your argument may have merit. But that is not how radiation oncology works. You may do well for yourself, but the guy who took the 90K job at Stanford that year, or the people forced to fellowship, or the new residents who work hard and publish and get satellite jobs when a senior physician who is coasting will not be forced out until they retire may disagree with you. That is not a function of ability, that is a function of an entrenched senior work force using residency expansion to pad their lifestyle as long as possible. Ability has nothing to do with it.
 
Sure, settle in.

The fear that there are not enough jobs for the amount of trainees is based on objective information as well as subjective.
1) The 2014 resident survey, published in 2015, which showed 33% of graduates did not get the region they wanted, 16% could not get academics, and 7% felt they were forced into fellowship (citation, http://www.redjournal.org/article/S0360-3016(15)00337-5/abstract).
2) The updated supply and demand forecast (citation http://www.redjournal.org/article/S0360-3016(16)00233-9/abstract).
3) Since both the survey and the model, residency expansion has only continued! Hello to SUNY Stony Brook and new Stanford position.
4) The explosion of fellowships, which are not accredited, including such blatant manipulative ones as 'in-patient rad onc' courtesy of columbia. There is no major subspecialization in our field outside pediatrics, which is contracting. Maybe you can educate me on the value of SBRT, SRS and 'palliative care' fellowships. I would truly like your opinion as an attending in a field that allows programs to graduate such substandard residents / adhere to substandard ACGME guidelines as to make it even possible that such basic parts of our field become a fellowship.
5) The fact that the labor market has already been destroyed in similiar situations (delayed entry into workforce in Canada https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26238955, the lengthening of residency in the mid 1990s in the US)
6) The rise of exploitative positions. It has been mentioned in this thread about the 90K stanford job. That is pretty well known in the field at this point, and it was real (if it still is I cannot vouch). But it was 90K for scut attending work without even the veneer of education that these fake fellowships apply, meant to take maximal advantage of a desirable location.
7) The fact that hypofractionation requires less manpower and is here to stay, and is good for patients.
8) That all of this is occuring as student debt increases year after year, reimbursement is decreasing year after year, and payment models are being explored whose cost savings rely on a gatekeeper who is incentivized not to refer patients out (Oncology home model)

Guaranteeing a great salary? The previous generation had that feast. When trainees are forced into fellowship carrying $200K plus debt, already with 5 years of residency, fighting for crumbs from an older generation not inclined to retire and no central body (ASTRO / ACGME / SCAROP) is even bothering to detail this is happening or providing objective information on the inability to work in large parts of the country, then fear is clearly justified. And the fear is amplified by anger of the blatant disregard of at least part of the older generation who could care less about the new grads by continuing expansion, as Stanford has decided with all this information available. I did not notice in their advertisement they were screening for people to serve in 'undesirable' parts of the country where there is a labor shortage (or so is claimed), did you? Also did not see any guidance from then on any of the published points I cited. When the supply/demand model from 2007 showed an increased demand, it was plastered pretty predominately on the ASTRO website. Now that the model predicts oversupply the same gravitas does not seem to be given to that information, and I sure don't hear the faculty where I am discussing this or being honest with medical students.

To top all this off, this is bad not only for residents and new graduates but for society. It is a waste of tax payer money on some level, because not all these positions are self funded. It increases health expenditures by increasing utilization (people with 200K debt can't survive on 90K, nor should they after 8 years of schooling and 5 years of residency), which is a known phenomenon and a generally accepted driver of health costs by CMS (and in response to radiatormike in the other thread - I sent the email and concede your points, but have a follow up call to an aide). Most of all people, like myself, feel betrayed. This isn't hunger games - if the field is bloated and the only jobs are in out of the way places, make that known broadly and honestly, recruit accordingly, and don't grind bright people down into your little scut monkey, accepting half the salary of 5 years ago with more work, and then throw your hands up when they complain. And while you may not control this directly, funding for research and research positions have also been cut as reimbursements are cut, so that having an academic career today is substantially harder than even 10 years ago, but infinitely so compared to 20, or roughly the generation of seniors making the choices now.

If you want to have an open competition for jobs, and not entrenched seniority, be my guest and your argument may have merit. But that is not how radiation oncology works. You may do well for yourself, but the guy who took the 90K job at Stanford that year, or the people forced to fellowship, or the new residents who work hard and publish and get satellite jobs when a senior physician who is coasting will not be forced out until they retire may disagree with you. That is not a function of ability, that is a function of an entrenched senior work force using residency expansion to pad their lifestyle as long as possible. Ability has nothing to do with it.

One of the realest post I've came across. I'll follow you, lead the way!
 
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Good post. Thanks.

I appreciate your response, and if you really do believe it then I would only ask you share this information with anyone whom you think may be in a position of power. I keep getting closer but I am limited by being a in a powerless position. But this is not right, for anyone.

Thank you RadOncDoc21 as well, your support is good to have.
 
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