Stanford

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DrRads101

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I thought this was an interesting read:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/10/16/specialized.medicine.ap/

Stanford sets new policy for med students
Thursday, October 16, 2003 Posted: 12:13 PM EDT (1613 GMT)

STANFORD, California (AP) -- Dora Castaneda has wanted to become a neuroscientist since her sophomore year of college, when she volunteered as a physical therapist to a 4-year-old autistic boy.

So when Stanford announced last month it would become the first U.S. university to require new medical students to pick "scholarly concentrations" -- similar in spirit to undergraduate majors -- Castaneda didn't hesitate. The author of an upcoming epilepsy article in the Journal of Neuroscience, she selected the molecular and genetic medicine track, then began another research project on stroke.

"Neurological brain disorders, how they function, why they happen -- this is what I want to do with my career," Castaneda said.

Attracting specialized, career-focused students is one reason Stanford University Medical Center overhauled its curriculum and required students to pick a concentration by the end of their first year. Officials say the policy puts Stanford at the forefront of medical education.

Harvard Medical School is considering a similar requirement, said Malcolm Cox, Harvard's dean for medical education. Many of the nation's top medical schools, including Michigan and Northwestern, are introducing dual-degree programs aimed at providing students with subspecialties long before their hospital residencies.

But critics, including some Stanford medical students, say the requirement piles even more pressure on harried first-year students. Others say the specialized approach does little to encourage general practitioners and could exacerbate a growing shortage of American primary care physicians.

School officials argue that eight broad concentrations -- including immunology, women's health, bioinformatics and bioethics -- accommodate family medicine or any niche. Administrators say the extra focus simply provides a channel for students' intellectual passion.

"Students in medical school turn into cookie cutters, all learning the same, huge amount of data, and by the end the idealists are gone," said Dr. Julie Parsonnet, Stanford's senior associate dean for medical education. "We're saying, 'We know you're all different from each other and you have individual reasons for going to school.' We want to foster that passion and still produce great doctors."

Career-minded students

Stanford's program came after an 18-month curriculum review, when officials discovered 70 percent of students were taking five or more years to get through the four-year program. Most spent an extra year on independent projects.

When asked what they'd want in a retooled program, Stanford students overwhelmingly asked for more time for unique research -- in part to pad their resumes and land the specialized residencies seen as a launching pad to lucrative careers.

The average medical student in 2002 graduated with $104,000 in student debt, according to the Association of American Medical Colleges. The salary gap between general practitioners and neurosurgeons or other highly specialized doctors is often several hundred thousand dollars per year.

Stanford's newest class of 87 students must devote at least 200 hours to a project in their concentration. Officials added three weeks to the fall quarter and asked professors to spend less time in the classroom each week and more time supervising students in interactions with patients.

Administrators will update concentrations to reflect demands of hospitals and research labs; they may add concentrations such as bioterrorism, depending on geopolitical trends. Five more areas, including international health, infectious disease and cardiovascular medicine, will debut next year.

Educators are monitoring Stanford, and success could inspire programs throughout the country. Proponents say the "Stanford model" reflects the competitive nature of medical students.

"Sometimes I think we have students whose interest in radiology began in kindergarten," said Dr. Greg Vercellotti, senior associate dean for education at the University of Minnesota Medical School. "These are very career-minded people."

Although Vercellotti has no immediate plans to introduce a concentration requirement, the Minneapolis-based school has seen tremendous growth in the number of medical school applicants to joint-degree programs. More medial students are graduating with degrees in informatics, law and business administration.

Drinking from a fire hydrant

Dr. Raymond Curry, executive associate dean for education at Northwestern University's Feinberg School of Medicine in Chicago, called Stanford's experiment provocative and risky. Physicians in training must learn a staggering array of facts required by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education, North America's accrediting authority for medical schools. It's unclear whether Stanford's program could prove distracting for first-year students.

"The classic metaphor for medical students is that they're trying to drink from a fire hydrant -- there's so much information," Curry said. "The trick is whether Stanford will manage this tension between medicine as an all-encompassing liberal education endeavor, and the fact that we have to ensure that every student has been introduced to a very broad range of topics we're required to present to them."

First-year Stanford medical student Ryan Williams is considering health services and policy research or public service and community medicine concentrations, but the would-be child psychiatrist feels overwhelmed.

"Ultimately, I think it puts us in a better career position," Williams said of the curriculum change. "But just getting through registration, orientation, figuring out financial aid and finding the grocery store -- those are bigger immediate concerns."

Joan Werblun, volunteer executive director for Citizens for the Right to Know, said Stanford's experiment, if widely copied, could encourage specialization when managed health care increasingly "shuttles people to the general practitioner."

"I don't know if this is going to work," said Werblun, a former nurse who heads the Sacramento-based patient advocacy group. "Managed care could turn around and bite Stanford."
 
great read.
looks like they tried to stir up controversy with the Northwestern dean's comments!
 
Pinkertinkle said:
Pah, I still think their hospital is second rate.

Pinkertinkle! (said in raised tone on last syllable)

am I going to have to resort to my spice rack again?
 
Interesting...thanks for the article.
 
Pinkertinkle said:
Pah, I still think their hospitals are second rate.

...and treat the wealthiest members of Palo Alto. It's like a country club out there :laugh:
 
Pinkertinkle said:
Pah, I still think their hospitals are second rate.

there goes pinkertinkle taking shots at stanford. :laugh:
 
I think their new curriculum could definitely turn on some, but turn off others. First year is extremely difficult and stressful, and it seems a bit far reaching to require a scholarly concentration after you've only been in med school one year. Maybe the school will cater to a different audience now, though. But hey, if you decide that you didn't like immunology and want to do neuro later on in med school, you are literally screwed out of a lot of time. Med school is partly education, and partly discovering and getting your feet wet in the many different fields of medicine, and then coming to the decision what you want to be as the years go by. This curriculum sounds like it is catered to gunners who already think they have to be a heart surgeon even though they have never tried radiology, for instance. I'm an M1 and I'm pretty sure I want to do radiology, but I am also open to other ideas and am beginning to look into internal medicine the more I learn about it. Med school gives you time to grow and actually discover what the fields really are rather than an abstract concept in your mind of what you THINK they are. I just can't imagine that at this stage with all the studying we're doing, having to essentially pick my specialty in a few months? Sheesh, that's what I call pressure.

I don't think this is good or bad news for Stanford, though. It is obvious that with the increasing need for general practitioners, and the mere fact that medical students are stressed out enough only to add a scholarly concentration requirement, essentially having them pick their field just after one year, it just doesn't sound like it is going to fly as a REQUIREMENT though. I'm sorry but unless you've done rotations how is your thinking mature enough to know what you really want to be? I mean, how many times in your life have you wanted to be something specific and then once you actually do it and find the nitty gritty about the job you no longer want to be that anymore? I think what will happen is that this will be an option, not a requirement, down the road. Either that or Stanford will be THE place to go if you already are 100% you know what type of doctor you want to be before school starts, and that doctor happens to not be primary care.
 
ctwickman said:
I think their new curriculum could definitely turn on some, but turn off others. First year is extremely difficult and stressful, and it seems a bit far reaching to require a scholarly concentration after you've only been in med school one year. Maybe the school will cater to a different audience now, though. But hey, if you decide that you didn't like immunology and want to do neuro later on in med school, you are literally screwed out of a lot of time. Med school is partly education, and partly discovering and getting your feet wet in the many different fields of medicine, and then coming to the decision what you want to be as the years go by. This curriculum sounds like it is catered to gunners who already think they have to be a heart surgeon even though they have never tried radiology, for instance. I'm a first year at NU (which is how I found the article, I did a search for Northwestern on google)---and I'm pretty sure I want to do radiology, but I am also open to other ideas and am beginning to look into internal medicine. Med school gives you time to grow and actually discover what the fields really are rather than an abstract concept in your mind of what you THINK they are. I just can't imagine that at this stage with all the studying we're doing, having to essentially pick my specialty in a few months? Sheesh, that's what I call pressure.

I don't think this is good or bad news for Stanford, though. It is obvious that with the increasing need for general practitioners, and the mere fact that medical students are stressed out enough only to add a scholarly concentration requirement, essentially having them pick their field just after one year, it just doesn't sound like it is going to fly as a REQUIREMENT though. I think what will happen is that this will be an option, not a requirement, down the road. Either that or Stanford will be THE place to go if you already are 100% you know what type of doctor you want to be before school starts, and that doctor happens to not be primary care.

The scholarly concentrations aren't as intense as one might think...there's plenty of leeway to change later on....there's a cocentration specifically for those interested in primary care...I like it...getting a mentor early on during medical school...many of my classmates already have research projects lined up....

-Harps
 
it seems pretty much custom made for me. i loved reading and writing about it.
 
Harps said:
The scholarly concentrations aren't as intense as one might think...there's plenty of leeway to change later on....there's a cocentration specifically for those interested in primary care...I like it...getting a mentor early on during medical school...many of my classmates already have research projects lined up....


Every school has loads of research opportunity though. The difference is it is not required. Also what do you do if you've done 1 year of neuro and have worked toward that "degree" and decide you want to do pediatric IM once you start rotations in year 3? With other schools this wouldn't be a problem because your research/extracurricular track is your own, and only as intense as you make it.
 
you don't have to pick your area of concentration the first week you get there. You have a bit of leeway to take some time and decide. Besides, that's why this school isn't for everyone. I see it as a way to get some advanced training in something I'm interested in while in medical school.

There are lots of schools interested in increasing the primary care population of physicians, Stanford just doesn't seem to be one of them!
 
DrYo12 said:
I see it as a way to get some advanced training in something I'm interested in while in medical school.

But you can get all the advanced training you want at most med schools. Most research schools encourage their students to do research from day 1, and the research opportunities at any top tier school are ENDLESS and allow you to discover or stick to your own, specialized path. You can be as broad or as specific as you want--every department has available faculty and programs for you to get involved in at any top school. You can start advanced training on day 1 if you want. I just don't see the advantage to making it a required part of the curriculum, however, because it's not like it brings the opportunity for advanced research to the table. It just simply makes something that has always been there at any top school an official curriculum requirement, rather than a student-directed option.
 
ctwickman said:
But you can get all the advanced training you want at most med schools. Most research schools encourage their students to do research from day 1, and the research opportunities at any top tier school are ENDLESS and allow you to discover or stick to your own, specialized path. You can be as broad or as specific as you want--every department has available faculty and programs for you to get involved in at any top school. You can start advanced training on day 1 if you want. I just don't see the advantage to making it a required part of the curriculum, however, because it's not like it brings the opportunity for advanced research to the table. It just simply makes something that has always been there at any top school an official curriculum requirement, rather than a student-directed option.

The advantage of making research a required part of the curriculum (as opposed to an optional part of the curriculum) is that instead of just creating an ACCEPTABLE environment for starting a research project, Stanford creates an IDEAL environment for starting a research project. It does this by making classes P/F throughout all four years (to my knowledge no other school does this), by limiting class/lab time during the first two years (specific blocks of time set aside for research), and by limiting required clerkships. As others have mentioned, such a heavy research focus is not for everybody, but it is definitely appealing for some.
 
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