Star Tribune Article

[pinkpuppy9]

http://www.startribune.com/local/275017651.html#lTuTOCYvKkf6Wui5.01

Thoughts? Seems like it might spread as quickly as that article about island school debt did.

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[CalliopeDVM]

It's a good story -- prices are still high, but even a tuition freeze is a small step forward.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I can't help but notice the article insinuates that Ashley was blissfully unaware of the debt problem in the profession until she accepted that first loan...

 

[KCgophervet]

Our Dean's response to the news article:


Dear UMN CVM Students:

You may have seen the Star Tribune’s Sunday feature on veterinary student debt at the U.http://www.startribune.com/local/275017651.html

I want our students to know that student debt is a priority for our College and the University’s administration. As state support has decreased or remained flat during the recession, other costs have continued to escalate significantly, accounting for today’s tuition rates.

For the past several years we have implemented cost cutting measures in the College and developed strategies to increase revenue streams through the Veterinary Medical Center, the Veterinary Diagnostic Laboratory and donor sources to help with our increased costs.

This year, we were able to freeze tuition for this current year for all D.V.M. classes, and even reduce tuition by 8% for our 4th year students, effective summer 2014.

Just last week University President Kaler introduced his biennial budget request to the Board of Regents, which includes a tuition freeze that would further reduce the burden on students and families by approximately $65 million for the next two years (FY 16-17). The proposal extends the current tuition freeze for resident undergraduate students to include resident graduate and professional students. To implement the freeze the U will seek additional funding allocations from the MN Legislature, for each of the next two years.

You all get a great education at the College with excellent facilities, significant flexibility and abundant clinical and diagnostic case material to enhance your training. The College will continue to make tuition costs a priority in our budget decisions this year.

Respectfully

Trevor

Trevor R. Ames DVM MS DACVIM

 

[pinkpuppy9]

have ANY other schools done so much as freeze tuition or even decrease it?

 

[dyachei]

have ANY other schools done so much as freeze tuition or even decrease it?

Yes

 

[DVMDream]

Edinburgh freezes tuition at whatever it is when you are accepted. So while tuition is increasing each year for each subsequent class, once you are in that is your cost of tuition for every year. So if tuition was 25,000 pounds when you were accepted, it will be 25,000 pound every year.

 

[LyraGardenia]

Beside the point, but the part that gave me pause was the claim that "Minnesota was the only vet school in an urban area." Are we forgetting Penn? (Among others, but no one could possibly argue that Philly isn't urban.) Maybe it's just poor sentence structure and the author meant it was the only school in an urban area that also had plenty of job opportunities for Ashley's husband.

I agree @pinkpuppy9 that Ashley seems to have been rather naive about the debt problem in vet med, but at least "she readily admits that she took on the loans willingly and made her own choices." It is an institutional problem that needs to change somehow, and maybe schools' making efforts to freeze tuition and decrease costs to students is part of the answer.

 

[DVMDream]

Beside the point, but the part that gave me pause was the claim that "Minnesota was the only vet school in an urban area." Are we forgetting Penn? (Among others, but no one could possibly argue that Philly isn't urban.) Maybe it's just poor sentence structure and the author meant it was the only school in an urban area that also had plenty of job opportunities for Ashley's husband.

I took it to mean that Minnesota was the only school she was accepted to that was in an urban area and provided job opportunity for her husband.

 

[allieh8607]

have ANY other schools done so much as freeze tuition or even decrease it?

Ross currently is in a tuition freeze

 

[LyraGardenia]

I took it to mean that Minnesota was the only school she was accepted to that was in an urban area and provided job opportunity for her husband.

Ah, that makes sense. Clearly I haven't had enough coffee today.

 

[LetItSnow]

It's a good story -- prices are still high, but even a tuition freeze is a small step forward.

One thing they didn't mention is that the med school had a tuition freeze for quite a long time before the vet school decided it was sufficiently important. I know Dean Ames would disagree with me, and I absolutely respect our dean, but I don't feel our school has been NEARLY aggressive enough in managing tuition. Whether that's through managing costs or increasing revenue streams ... that's something I'd leave to them. But they have said relatively little about tuition being a problem they are aware of up until the last year or so, and they've been raising tuition steadily for much longer. Maybe it's just a communication failure. And for sure, it has to be a frustrating position for the vet school administrators to be in; they don't have absolute control over a lot of factors. But overall, I don't feel they've been very responsive to the issue up until recently.

 

[LetItSnow]

Edinburgh freezes tuition at whatever it is when you are accepted. So while tuition is increasing each year for each subsequent class, once you are in that is your cost of tuition for every year. So if tuition was 25,000 pounds when you were accepted, it will be 25,000 pound every year.

I *really* think that's a super way to approach tuition. Definitely harder for the school because they have to think harder about budgeting, but it makes it much easier for a student to know exactly what their debt will be.

 

[LetItSnow]

Ah, that makes sense. Clearly I haven't had enough coffee today.

Meh. Not your fault. I just wouldn't read too much into quotes... it's so common to cut a quote up, and there's disagreement in the news field about how much to 'correct' in a quote, and it lacks context.... you just don't want to make too many conclusions about what the person <actually> meant.

 

[that redhead]

On the one hand, something like a tuition freeze is an admirable show of concern over student costs and I sure wouldn't turn my nose up at it. But they will eventually have to find another way to supplement the school's income and/or cut the costs and often that's where class size increases come in, or cutting of important programs. AVC has been doing a lot of cost cutting (while tuition increases something like 6% per year) which I think has hurt our students as well as the overall moral of everyone involved at the school.

Sure, I can live without the discounted veterinary services, and I can deal with absorbing the workload of an extra tech that would have to be paid to work when I can be made to work for free but not having any exotics program to speak of when that's one of my primary interests? Having exceptional professors and clinicians leaving because of the atmosphere and politics behind cost saving? Admitting more students that will go out to further saturate the veterinary market? That's not really an acceptable solution, at least in my opinion.

 

[LetItSnow]

On the one hand, something like a tuition freeze is an admirable show of concern over student costs and I sure wouldn't turn my nose up at it. But they will eventually have to find another way to supplement the school's income and/or cut the costs and often that's where class size increases come in, or cutting of important programs. AVC has been doing a lot of cost cutting (while tuition increases something like 6% per year) which I think has hurt our students as well as the overall moral of everyone involved at the school.

Sure, I can live without the discounted veterinary services, and I can deal with absorbing the workload of an extra tech that would have to be paid to work when I can be made to work for free but not having any exotics program to speak of when that's one of my primary interests? Having exceptional professors and clinicians leaving because of the atmosphere and politics behind cost saving? Admitting more students that will go out to further saturate the veterinary market? That's not really an acceptable solution, at least in my opinion.

Totally agree. On the one hand - sure, I think a tuition freeze is a great start. It sorta rubs me the wrong way how much back-patting they are doing here about it, as if they're totally on top of the tuition issue. I mean, the absurdly high cost here isn't a new thing, but they're just now talking about it like it's some new issue. And they haven't really communicated much about what other plans they might have to manage costs or increase income.

 

[that redhead]

Totally agree. On the one hand - sure, I think a tuition freeze is a great start. It sorta rubs me the wrong way how much back-patting they are doing here about it, as if they're totally on top of the tuition issue. I mean, the absurdly high cost here isn't a new thing, but they're just now talking about it like it's some new issue. And they haven't really communicated much about what other plans they might have to manage costs or increase income.

In a way it reminds me a bit of the passage of the Veterinary Mobility Act: it was an important thing to address and they got it done. But the AVMA keeps waving that around in the forefront as though it absolves them of any need to get anything else started any time soon. The whole "good job old chap!" circle jerk gets frustrating pretty quickly when you're in our position and they're in their position.

 

[LetItSnow]

In a way it reminds me a bit of the passage of the Veterinary Mobility Act: it was an important thing to address and they got it done. But the AVMA keeps waving that around in the forefront as though it absolves them of any need to get anything else started any time soon. The whole "good job old chap!" circle jerk gets frustrating pretty quickly when you're in our position and they're in their position.

Yup.

Honestly, the language coming from them (stuff like "I want our students to know that student debt is a priority") is all hand-waving. There's nothing concrete in there. Lots of "we're aware" and "we value" and stuff. But no "this is what we're doing to raise more money" and "this is what we're doing to cut costs". When I see things like that it sets off my buzzword bingo radar. If you tell me that you want me to know it's a priority, AND these are the <specific> things we're doing to address it .... that's different. But stuff like "developed strategies" is corporate lingo for "we've come up with some great ideas but we either haven't implemented them yet or we haven't seen any return on them." It's spin. The single concrete thing so far is the tuition freeze (which is great, no doubt!).

That said, I think our vet school administration runs a pretty decent ship. Everyone in our administration is impressively focused and professional. They don't have tons of excessive administrative staff like some places on campus (at least, it doesn't look like it to me!). They invest slowly but steadily in facilities improvements and they appear to me to prioritize well.

So where does that leave things?

It says to me that it's largely out of their control.

They can't dictate their budget - they can only request from the larger university. So they're kinda between a rock and a hard place when it comes to a budget. What <really> needs to happen at UMN is that the larger university (and beyond that - the state legislature) needs to make a conscious decision about how much they value having an excellent vet school in MN and whether it's worth supporting. Because if so, they need to support it better so tuition can go down. And if not .... then make some drastic cuts and move on. But we're the most (or very near, I forget) expensive land-grant university vet school in the nation. That's not ok in any economic environment, and it's certainly not ok in today's veterinary economy.

I'm glad the issue is finally get public attention. I'm somewhat disappointed that it took this long for our school to be more vocal about it.

 

[DVMDream]

I *really* think that's a super way to approach tuition. Definitely harder for the school because they have to think harder about budgeting, but it makes it much easier for a student to know exactly what their debt will be.

Well, when you add in that tuition for Scottish students is FREE. (Not kidding) And for British students (if it is their first degree) is significantly cheap (like 9,000ish pounds give or take a bit)... it makes you wonder how they manage? I mean, the school has to get money from somewhere and I doubt that the international students are enough to give them the funds needed to run that school. Maybe it is, but I doubt it.

 

[shortnsweet]

Well, when you add in that tuition for Scottish students is FREE. (Not kidding) And for British students (if it is their first degree) is significantly cheap (like 9,000ish pounds give or take a bit)... it makes you wonder how they manage? I mean, the school has to get money from somewhere and I doubt that the international students are enough to give them the funds needed to run that school. Maybe it is, but I doubt it.

Trust me....the UK vet schools have plenty of money. And they are accepting more and more N. American students as well as internationals which contribute a significant amount, plus the development funds are very secure. Government support as well as research also contributes. Scottish students don't pay accept for books, labs, other expenses, English pay the lowest, then N. Irish/Welsh at the Scottish schools. Though I would imagine this would all change significantly if *things* happen on Thursday....

Glasgow also has no inflation. I paid the same all 5 years.

 

[DVMDream]

Trust me....the UK vet schools have plenty of money. And they are accepting more and more N. American students as well as internationals which contribute a significant amount, plus the development funds are very secure. Government support as well as research also contributes. Scottish students don't pay accept for books, labs, other expenses, English pay the lowest, then N. Irish/Welsh at the Scottish schools. Though I would imagine this would all change significantly if *things* happen on Thursday....

Glasgow also has no inflation. I paid the same all 5 years.

Oh I know they get funds from other places, but they don't have near as many international students as say some US schools have out of state students. I also know that they get quite a bit of funding from the government and from research.

I am interested to see the outcome of Thursday's vote. I wonder if it ends up being a yes what impact that will have on those universities. Kind of scary to think about.

 

[shortnsweet]

Oh I know they get funds from other places, but they don't have near as many international students as say some US schools have out of state students. I also know that they get quite a bit of funding from the government and from research.

I am interested to see the outcome of Thursday's vote. I wonder if it ends up being a yes what impact that will have on those universities. Kind of scary to think about.

Really? My class certainly had more internationals/non-scottish than Scottish students.

And yeah...Thursday is gonna be a hot mess no matter what. I highly recommend watching the video on my facebook wall. It made me laugh.

 

[DVMDream]

Really? My class certainly had more internationals/non-scottish than Scottish students.

And yeah...Thursday is gonna be a hot mess no matter what. I highly recommend watching the video on my facebook wall. It made me laugh.

I did! I was almost in tears from laughing so hard.

The GEP class everyone pays the "international" tuition. However, there are only a handful of international students in the 5 year program classes. Everyone else was either British/Scottish.

 

[shortnsweet]

I did! I was almost in tears from laughing so hard.

The GEP class everyone pays the "international" tuition. However, there are only a handful of international students in the 5 year program classes. Everyone else was either British/Scottish.

Ah...we had N Americans(obvi--but we made up a third of the class), a few from Asia, the EU, and then Botswana. We also had a few second degree students. Plus a TON of N Irish....

 

[DVMDream]

Ah...we had N Americans(obvi--but we made up a third of the class), a few from Asia, the EU, and then Botswana. We also had a few second degree students. Plus a TON of N Irish....

Yeah we had a few other internationals besides those from N. America... Singapore, Japan, China, Trinidad, Australia, Sweden... but that was just a few.. some in the GEP course and some in the 5 year program.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

Well, when you add in that tuition for Scottish students is FREE. (Not kidding) And for British students (if it is their first degree) is significantly cheap (like 9,000ish pounds give or take a bit)... it makes you wonder how they manage? I mean, the school has to get money from somewhere and I doubt that the international students are enough to give them the funds needed to run that school. Maybe it is, but I doubt it.

I suspect they get most from the government, like the schools in Canada do. In 3 of the 5 Canadian vet schools there are no international students, and spots are reserved for regional residents.....even in the two schools who do take some international students, students from other parts of Canada (outside the designated region) can't apply.