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Fair enough, just for my curiosity then what would a new grad travel pt working in Alaska/Texas (or other relatively high paying areas) expect to make the first couple years out?
Starting Salary for DPT new-grads
Started by jblil
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If you look at the result of my salary survey (link on page 1 of this thread), you'll see that most new grads get offers between 60K-65K/yr. Travel PTs will make more than that and you'll see a few who report offers around 70K-85K in the survey. But one can't infer any trend, or average, from just 2 or 3 data points. And this onion has many layers: Texas can mean DFW, Houston, Austin, as well as the areas near the Mexico border where you may end up treating a Zeta cartel member...
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I am currently at the CSM convention in Indianapolis and talked to a bunch of recruiters. As of right now (early 2015), the job market is still strong for folks who want to travel, but the vast majority of the positions are in SNFs, esp. in smaller cities or rural areas. I also talked to a handful of PTs who have their own practices and all agreed that the environment is getting tougher (more paperwork, diminishing reimbursements, etc). Colorado seems to be one state where PT pay is fairly low, possibly because lots of people want to relocate there.
I've been talking to recruiters, and there's a lot of opportunity in rural medical centers, SNFs, and travel (or contract) therapy. These settings pay more, and the COL is much cheaper in rural areas, or even smaller cities. But most new grads don't want to work in those areas. They all want to work in an outpatient orthopedic clinic in a popular city. Then they wonder why they're only making $60k a year.
Since this thread is the one that gets the most views on this section of SDN, I propose we put in here links to websites that could be useful to new grads.
There is of course the Facebook DPT group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/370244506354966/
And I recently found the Reddit board which also has interesting discussions:
http://www.reddit.com/r/physicaltherapy/
There is of course the Facebook DPT group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/370244506354966/
And I recently found the Reddit board which also has interesting discussions:
http://www.reddit.com/r/physicaltherapy/
A few weeks ago, we were talking about South College's online & shortened DPT program. It was just granted candidate status by CAPTE, meaning that it will get accredited; check the DPT Facebook group for a discussion. How much longer before the Univ of Phoenix offers a DPT?
From the school's website: ".... Further, though achievement of Candidate for Accreditation status signifies satisfactory progress toward accreditation, it does not assure that the program will be granted accreditation."
I'm surprise it got as far as candidacy status nonetheless. Let's see how their first class of students turn out.
According to this article, they'll be starting their first class this June.
http://www.evidenceinmotion.com/about/blog/2015/03/our-candidacy-for-accreditation-has-been-granted/
Here's the conversation on facebook for anyone interested:
http://www.evidenceinmotion.com/about/blog/2015/03/our-candidacy-for-accreditation-has-been-granted/
Here's the conversation on facebook for anyone interested:
Indeed. The first for-profit physical therapy program is officially open for business. Not only that, it's a DPT in 2 years flat at a business college...and it's almost entirely online. Give me a break. I hope that the licensure exam will select out students that really do get a crappy education like this. Or perhaps they will all do just fine. If that is the case, then perhaps the rigor of the licensing exam needs to be bumped up if this kind of educational trend is going to continue.
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They claim that their vision is for PT education to be 2 years followed by a year of residency training rather than 3 years of education. If you read through that Facebook thread posted above, their program director sounds like a used car salesman. He's a fast talker with an answer for everything. I guess CAPTE bought it...
If it's 2 years, lets stop kidding ourselves and just call it a Master's degree.
They charge as much if not more per credit to provide compressed-format online education that real PT schools charge for, well...a real PT school...
If it's 2 years, lets stop kidding ourselves and just call it a Master's degree.
They charge as much if not more per credit to provide compressed-format online education that real PT schools charge for, well...a real PT school...
If they produce quality clinicians who treat their patients well using up to date evidence based techniques it's really just sour grapes for everyone who spent time at institutions and went about it the normal route. Technology changes the way education is provided- at least the apta isn't going to let old school mentality stop a possible step in the next direction. We won't know the quality of the clinicians until a few years from now and then it's worth revisiting the issue. There are distance learning programs and residencies that exist now which only require small percentages of time in the classroom and additional time online and they are accredited. They will still have clinicals. If their education really sucks than they will all fail their cljnicals. The system is already designed to keep people who aren't prepared out (failing clinicals, never passing npte, poor grades, etc.....)
From the look of things, they're not really in the clear yet. According to their curriculum, students are expected to cram 135 credits across a 2-years span (including a 31 weeks full-time clinical). Even though their didactic portions are online, it still seems very tough. They have roughly 3 months to fill their first class, and I hope that people who sign up fully understand what they're in for. I'm not saying it's a bad model nor am I discrediting their ability. The two-years turnover rate for a DPT degree is a scary thought in itself when you consider employment opportunities...
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Let me offer a more sanguine view. If South offers 135 credits, 30 weeks of clinical rotations, plenty of time in the lab, and prepares its students for the NPTE, then the only problem is that the program is way too accelerated. USA offers a 2 1/4 year program and that seems fast. I sure as hell would not want to take 135 credits in two years but I'm sure some applicants will try. Some nursing programs are 13 months and as far as I know the quality of the nurses they produce is not any lower than those of other programs.
If South cannot produce component PT's who can guarantee patient safety and treat impairments, then employers are going to find out really soon. Of course that would be easier in a cash-based system but I won't go there.
If South cannot produce component PT's who can guarantee patient safety and treat impairments, then employers are going to find out really soon. Of course that would be easier in a cash-based system but I won't go there.
This is a massive risk for students going in.....USA has been around awhile and the grads I know we're great, but from what I've heard, those 22 credit semesters which are basically full time work in class. 135 creds in two years is insane. This is going to be an example of where employers will toss apps out if the first classes of graduates can't perform. School quality and name may start to matter significantly more although that won't be for a while.
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We can definitely all philosophize about this South College program and have lots of different opinions on its legitimacy, but I think there are a few things that we could all agree on:
- We are already struggling to get the rest of the healthcare community on board with the DPT and the underlying ideals that spurred its introduction. Think more in terms of what the move to the DPT symbolizes as our profession's goals, rather than what it literally has done (which is very little so far) or what the problems with it are. When PTs start going out into the world saying that they earned a "doctorate" degree in physical therapy online from a small for-profit business college in 2 years flat, that is going to do nothing to help us champion the cause for the direct access, "autonomous practice", etc. that we supposedly seek.
- If the curriculum can be completed in 24 months, lets stop kidding ourselves and just call it a master's degree. Plenty of MPT programs that formerly existed were actually longer than 24 months.
- The opening of a PT school at a for-profit college foretells the beginning of overproduction of new PTs and market saturation. Once upon a time the media promoted law as the hot profession, law programs across the country proliferated rapidly, for-profit colleges eventually opened law schools and the law job market for new grads subsequently sunk like a lead balloon. The media started promoting pharmacy as the hot profession, pharmacy programs around the country proliferated rapidly, for-profit colleges eventually opened pharmacy schools, and the pharmacy job market for new grads subsequently sunk like a lead balloon. We are ridiculous if we don't believe that the future will repeat itself in physical therapy. Nevertheless, accreditation standards are very specific and very black and white and allow for anyone with the resources and determination to open an accredited PT school. And there will always be an endless supply of eager students willing to pay whatever the cost. As a result, everyday PTs and PT students can't really do anything to prevent the overproduction of graduates from happening around the country.
Well I can't speak for other clinicians but after about 6 months of school you stop saying or caring about a doctorate anyway. People think phd, and it doesn't change the way people approach you as a clinician and if u go around asking ppl to call you dr whatever it is my guess that you will lose part of the informality and the relationship that we are able to form with our patients that mds don't. So who cares if you can get an education online in 24 months instead of the 28 months my (and other accelerated programs) education was. I know what the dpt means globally but on a day to day level no one cares-
2.5 year programs have education AND clinicals in 28-29 months crammed in there so how is that different? It will actually be LONGER than other programs out there if you factor another year of 'residency' in after the 24
Months.
Stop freaking out- you're talking like things in the future are definites and you have yet to actually see what is going on the workforce. Don't believe everything you read on the forums- people give advice who haven't even lived it yet.
2.5 year programs have education AND clinicals in 28-29 months crammed in there so how is that different? It will actually be LONGER than other programs out there if you factor another year of 'residency' in after the 24
Months.
Stop freaking out- you're talking like things in the future are definites and you have yet to actually see what is going on the workforce. Don't believe everything you read on the forums- people give advice who haven't even lived it yet.
Sorry. Siding with knj on this one. For profit schools destroy quality and saturate markets fast. Really really bad when trying to increase rep for a field. I heard someone got an interview with a 28 pcat score. Check out the horror threads of certain Carib med schools where ppl just fail out or can't match and the school has drained six figs in debt from them.
Yeah, you can blame the applicants that's very true, but predatory education is the real one here. You want good rep for a profession? Keep admissions competitive.
There's something to be said about the quality of a person who maintains a strong gpa, does something for redemption of past grades, balances the Ec's and has motivation for hours and a decent gre performance. If your coworkers are subpar, then the atmosphere of your clinic will definitely not be great. That's gonna carry on to your patients and the perception of you and the perception of your work.
Yeah, you can blame the applicants that's very true, but predatory education is the real one here. You want good rep for a profession? Keep admissions competitive.
There's something to be said about the quality of a person who maintains a strong gpa, does something for redemption of past grades, balances the Ec's and has motivation for hours and a decent gre performance. If your coworkers are subpar, then the atmosphere of your clinic will definitely not be great. That's gonna carry on to your patients and the perception of you and the perception of your work.
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Then the problem is the DPT itself. Why don't we go back to the master's degree? I actually feel uncomfortable telling people I'm a "doctor." Personally, I think it's a joke when "doctor" is synonymous with "medical doctor." I don't think anyone takes our title seriously. I'd rather put 'PT' behind my name than 'DPT.' The shift to DPT did nothing for this profession and instead just raised the cost of education and artificially inflated the status of our profession. Nothing was wrong with "master's of physical therapy." Only the APTA thought it was wise to do that.
The results will be neutral. At worst, new graduates will have to find work in rural areas or small towns. They won't be able to find work in expensive cities like DC and Miami as new grads. Too bad. They will have to do their time and prove their value in less desirable locations. I know pharmacy is oversaturated, but I haven't seen too many pharmacists at the soup kitchen lately. They just have to be more flexible. The market for PT's collapsed in 1998 and 1999. It recovered within several years. That's the nature of economics. There are lean times and there are bull times. When the market becomes saturated and salaries start falling, fewer people will apply to schools. If two-year programs produce incompetent graduates, nobody is going to hire them, and the value of component PT's will go up. Good PT's will always be in demand. Keep your skills up and invest in your profession and you'll be fine.
keep the grades up, network in school, and be ready to compete to a degree. Not law/dent/med cutthroat but stand up from the people that trickle in. Im amazed accreditation is still happening. There are already a ton of schools. The trick is the low class size rather than 270 per class that destroys other professions.
Great description....it reminds me of my economic classes in undergrad haha
Thanks NT. I agree with you regarding the DPT. I'm not concerned with what my title is when I graduate, I just want to be a PT. But I do think that South College's "doctorate" is more absurd than most DPT programs, and that is what I was trying to point out.
I am also not trying to be pessimistic about the future of PT, nor do I think PTs will be lining up at the soup kitchen. I love PT and wouldn't choose any other field.
But I think the facts and logic as I presented them are sound and the candidacy for accreditation that South College has received symbolizes trends in PT that we should all be concerned about. Do I think we should freak out? No. Do markets bounce back? Yes. But the law market has still not made a strong recovery after a number of years and may never fully recover in the foreseeable future. What is happening in pharmacy right now will take decades, not years, to recover from. I have no evidence at this point that such severe levels of underemployment will happen in PT. Just trying to highlight that those who don't learn from the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.
And as stated before, as long as there is money to be made and an endless supply of willing students with the capacity to easily borrow vast sums of money, the expansion of the academy will continue no matter how mad it may make some people.
I read about their model. It has MBA written all over it, with terms like "disruptive" and "innovation" flung around like monkey poop. Im my opinion, it's all about profit versus steering the education of PT's for betterment. Though, I think their model may be sound, however, I do not see any measures indicating that it will produce better PT's. I'm guessing that's why they are trying out their own program.
How many for-profits are there now? South College and West Coast U. Are there any more?
I'm curious about where this will lead. South College's EIM partnership can be a good thing or bad. The DPT Students Facebook post revealed that EIM's residency is not required, but highly encouraged. Although residencies are paid, EIM charges a fee. So, where is the cost savings in this? Students still end up with >$100k of debt.
jblil may be correct. The University of Phoenix DPT program may just be around the corner...
I'm curious about where this will lead. South College's EIM partnership can be a good thing or bad. The DPT Students Facebook post revealed that EIM's residency is not required, but highly encouraged. Although residencies are paid, EIM charges a fee. So, where is the cost savings in this? Students still end up with >$100k of debt.
jblil may be correct. The University of Phoenix DPT program may just be around the corner...
Just because something is accelerated doesn't always mean it's a problem. University of the Pacific in Stockton, CA is a 25 month DPT program and its main draw for students is that it is fast. While it's fast paced, it's certainly doable while maintaining a high standard for students. But I totally agree with your second statement...as not only employers but clinical sites will recognize early on the quality of the students.
This is exactly why I thought the director that was fielding questions sounded like a used car salesman.
This is unnerving.
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I am still unclear about the total costs if one goes to South College. On their website, they have the tuition & fees at $73K, for 8 quarters. Add to it 84 days of onsite lab, which they estimate at $8.4K (or $100/day; I think it's low if you have to pay for hotel + car + meals). But ok, let's accept their estimate so it'd be $81.4K total. Probably more like $90K to be realistic.
Included in the above 8 quarters, students get "31 weeks of full-time clinical education, in a variety of clinical settings, consisting of an 8-week experience and a 23-week terminal internship" with EIM. Do students have to pay an additional fee to EIM? If yes, how much is it?
Included in the above 8 quarters, students get "31 weeks of full-time clinical education, in a variety of clinical settings, consisting of an 8-week experience and a 23-week terminal internship" with EIM. Do students have to pay an additional fee to EIM? If yes, how much is it?
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The EIM clinical affiliations are most likely factored into the tuition cost, though its very unclear. What they neglected to mention is the estimated COL if those sites are not within the student's location.
I saw that someone was inquiring about more cost transparency on the "Doctors of Physical Therapy Students" Facebook page, and was met with a "Go to EIM's website if you want to know" [paraphrased] from South College's Director of Admissions. Very classy response. They want to enshroud students under the illusion of the, "we're addressing the ballooning costs of PT education" simply by hiding the real costs from the unsuspecting.
I had some free time so I put the Excel data into charts, to compare 2103/2014 new-grads' starting salaries:
https://dptfinances.wordpress.com/2015/03/21/salary-survey-march-2015-update/
"Take-away" from the very last slide: do try to negotiate your offer as you have a better-than-even chance of improving it.
https://dptfinances.wordpress.com/2015/03/21/salary-survey-march-2015-update/
"Take-away" from the very last slide: do try to negotiate your offer as you have a better-than-even chance of improving it.
Thank you. This is probably one of the most important resources I will utilize when I graduate. I check the updates often. Truly valuable.
Can one not get two per diem jobs out of school? .. I remember reading somewhere, maybe on indeed. Com where there was a poster who took up two per diem jobs and making close to the six figures.
Working two per diems is great for some people and I personally know a few people who do it. Some pros are you make a lot more money and you can take time off whenever you want without it being approved. The cons are you get no benefits. You would have to get health insurance elsewhere. No paid leave. Some companies give 401Ks for per diem but don't match. If you get injured or sick for a long period you have no back up disability plan and no income. Also if it's inpatient and the census drops the per diems are the first to get flexed out of work and you usually don't know this until the night before.
I wouldn't say becoming an ER doc takes "little work", nor is it a lifestyle or stress level that everyone will be compatible with.
Other than winning the lottery or a windfall from a rich uncle or something, there is really no way to make "big bucks" with little work in life.
Yes there is. Get elected to Congress and you'll be paid for doing nothing.
Sadly true.
😵 ER docs are often times the first contact point with a critically ill patient and have to make judgment calls and decisions I hope I never have to make in my lifetime...but I guess that qualifies as little work lol.
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^I dare you to post that in allo........
You'll also get paid to take other people's money. Lots of it.
Of course they will take the time off of bashing each other and inflating their stats to address that comment, but let's not invite that here...
