Startling words from a recent dental grad

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can't read it because I'm not a member,
did you guys write your real name/infos and school infos when registering on dentaltown?
 
From the thread:

Just talked with a friend who graduated from dent school (private). Her comments:

"I'm currently on income-based repayment because I do not make enough after taxes to cover my 10 or 30 year repayment plan payments. The 10 year one is about $5000 per month and the 30 year one is about $3000 per month. My interest alone is $2600 per month. And this is without undergrad debt. It's pretty ugly."

She's not a specialist. Thinking about going on for ortho training (another 200 grand!). What do you think of this?
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More info:

She went to a long-established private dental school on the east coast, where tuition and supplies run close to 70K. Add on living expenses and you can see why her total debt load is where it is. Plus undergrad. And at these interest rates....yeah, it's not hard to imagine that for a grad of ANY private dental school these days. Check out UPENN's cost of attendance. It is 400K WITHOUT factoring in interest for four years. UPENN is an old established private dental school and very representative of the current reality. Also check out UPENN's specialty programs such as endo and ortho: 100k/year (for two years) for tuition, fees, and living expenses. Guys, what the hell is happening?
I keep hearing people write, "If it weren't worth it, people wouldn't go into so much debt." But there is a problem with that. These are unprecedented costs. Younger people are looking at the success of the previous generation and thinking that will necessarily be them. The previous generation of dentists paid a pittance for their education and practices. The reality of paying back such enormous loans has yet to his the market place en masse, but rest assured, it will eventually. Only then will potential enrollees begin to question the wisdom of paying for this. Unreal.

For some perspective, I actually attended the dental school this particular graduate attended and I quit early in part because of these costs. I have posted several other threads here and on SDN about these costs...I just don't think people are thinking this all through. If you attend a private dental school and then have to pay for special training, you will be 700K in debt just from your education!
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Members don't see this ad :)
As long as financially incompetent people are willing to do it and the government keeps giving out federal loans like candy, then tuition will keep rising. Simple supply and demand. Can it get any simpler?
 
yappy said:
From the thread:



More info:
Click to expand...
Yikes, that's some scary stuff. I'm wondering if the friend attended UPenn, or if that's just a reference for insane tuition (which it is - 370k total cost according to ADEA book). Even pinching pennies, there's not much you can do to come out with sub 400k at these schools. I'm all in, but it should be a tough decision for future pre-dents.
 
I just finished reading this same thread on dentaltown and came over here to post it. ALL students planning on going to dental school should be required to read this! It takes 5 seconds to sign up for a dentaltown account. Do it even if it is for just this one article and recognize that there are a lot of successful practitioners commenting on this thread.
 
It amazes me that people are willing to pay 400k plus for a dental education. While dentistry is a good career and gives you the potential opportunity to make a great living, I do not think the degree is worth accruing that much in loans; I do not think any degree is worth that much. I have to wonder if there will be a breaking point. I want to be a dentist but I do not want to graduate completely underwater in loans. When I applied to dental schools I primarily chose state schools, wanting to avoid the enormous tuition associated with private schools. I think making a great living in dentistry is heavily contingent on minimizing debt upon graduation. When I look around at the dentists I see doing very well financially, I notice one thing in common. They all own their practices or are equity partners in them. To me achieving that status would be increasingly difficult indebtedness.
 
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jwdent said:
It amazes me that people are willing to pay 400k plus for a dental education. While dentistry is a good career and gives you the potential opportunity to make a great living, I do not think the degree is worth accruing that much in loans; I do not think any degree is worth that much. I have to wonder if there will be a breaking point. I want to be a dentist but I do not want to graduate completely underwater in loans. When I applied to dental schools I primarily chose state schools, wanting to avoid the enormous tuition associated with private schools. I think making a great living in dentistry is heavily contingent on minimizing debt upon graduation. When I look around at the dentists I see doing very well financially, I notice one thing in common. They all own their practices or are equity partners in them. To me achieving that status would be increasingly difficult indebtedness.
Click to expand...

People will pay 400k because they couldn't get into a cheaper school. Let's face it, pre-dents who work hard for 4 years to do well in their science classes and DAT, apply and many don't get into their state schools but instead get into private schools or OOS. The decision becomes do they take the seat and take up all those loans, or back away from dentistry? The decision is not the easiest to make for most. Afterall, they worked so hard for 4 years and so what are the other options? Yes, pre-dents are part to blame but it's mostly the schools who charge outrageous tuition. Also, does the government really need to set the interest rates to the ridiculous figures they have now?
Besides, state schools aren't that cheap either. In fact, tuition for public schools increase every year by a higher percentage than private schools.
Undergraduate programs are getting more expensive by the year, and so are professional programs. It's becoming the norm to be in debt in order to pursue a particular career. This can't go on forever, which is why many people are saying the student loan bubble will burst and who the hell knows what will happen afterwards.

Right now I am in dental school so I'm already in the rollercoaster. I looked at my particular situation with regards to my total loans, interest rates, payment plans, hypothetical practicing salaries, and how much I would spend in living costs, as conservatively as I possibly could and I still see dentistry financially rewarding. I don't think I could say the same if I had a $400k loan. Pre-dents need to look at what they are getting themselves into.
 
BTW is there anyway we can get a sticky in the "pre-dent" forum so that predents can be more enlightened about this enormous financial commitment.
 
suarez 7 said:
BTW is there anyway we can get a sticky in the "pre-dent" forum so that predents can be more enlightened about this enormous financial commitment.
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are you kidding me? if you put this in the predent forum, you would get these responses:

"I'm not really worried about debt"
"I'll pay it off eventually"
"I think dental therapists are great"
"I'm not in it for the money"
"So, what if UOP is expensive, I'll be graduating a year earlier. I pay over 100k more for UOP then I would for another school, but it doesnt matter. I'm going to graduate 1 year earlier and when I do graduate, I WILL DEFINITELY have a 100K job lined up for me."
"So what if Columbia is 100K more expensive. Columbia has a high specialization rate"

I could go on and on, but you get the point. Most of them have no idea of the real world.
My favorite quotes from dentists/MDs on premeds/predents from SDN forums:

Premed: "Why do most premeds seem to be in favor of Obamacare, but a majority of doctors aren't in favor of it?"
MD: "Important qualifier. Most premeds are dumb as rocks."

DDS: "Note to predents: Loan money is not the same as lottery money."
 
Because being a poor dentist is still better than many of the other jobs out there.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
UCSD6 said:
Because being a poor dentist is still better than many of the other jobs out there.
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Because confronting problems with the philosophy of "It could be worse" is NOT a strategy that made the US the greatest country the world has ever seen.

God bless America. :thumbup:
 
suarez 7 said:
BTW is there anyway we can get a sticky in the "pre-dent" forum so that predents can be more enlightened about this enormous financial commitment.
Click to expand...

That's not a bad idea. I mean, it couldn't be a complaining thread like this one, but a thread that shows predents ways to calculate debt and make a repayment schedule might be nice. We could explain how compounding interest works, what an initiation fee is, how to predict monthly payments, and how the different payment plans stack up against eachother.

You could also throw in a sample budgeting spreadsheet. I made one of those and I found it very helpful in the planning process. I made it interactive so I could change the values as my circumstances change, but this spreadsheet could be made in the same way to accommodate different predents.

Keeping other dental students in good (or at least better) financial straights benefits us all. Fewer patients will be subject to the treatment plans of desperate dentists, and there would be less fuel for the supposed trend toward the marginalization of dentists. Because graduates will be more likely to have the leverage to buy their own practice, rather than depend on the corporate model, we could see a slower move away from the cottage industry dentists enjoy today.

A little educational thread couldn't do all that, but it wouldn't be that hard to make, and it would probably help a few of them out.
 
hellopeople said:
That's not a bad idea. I mean, it couldn't be a complaining thread like this one, but a thread that shows predents ways to calculate debt and make a repayment schedule might be nice. We could explain how compounding interest works, what an initiation fee is, how to predict monthly payments, and how the different payment plans stack up against eachother.

You could also throw in a sample budgeting spreadsheet.
Click to expand...

Here are a couple very good and detailed threads. This first one is an in depth look at how much money a brand new grad can expect to make for their first few years out. It assumes a 350K loan balance and a starting salary of 120K. Essentially after taxes, loan repayments, insurance, CE, etc, a new grad can only expect to have 30-40K of spending money for rent, car, living expenses.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=866015

This second one is a very detailed spreadsheet that Bereno put together. It allows you to put your loan amount in, yearly salary, living expenses, etc and it calculates exactly what you will have as available spending cash. He said it took him like 8 hours to put it together.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=868931
 
UltimateHombre said:
Here are a couple very good and detailed threads. This first one is an in depth look at how much money a brand new grad can expect to make for their first few years out. It assumes a 350K loan balance and a starting salary of 120K. Essentially after taxes, loan repayments, insurance, CE, etc, a new grad can only expect to have 30-40K of spending money for rent, car, living expenses.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=866015

This second one is a very detailed spreadsheet that Bereno put together. It allows you to put your loan amount in, yearly salary, living expenses, etc and it calculates exactly what you will have as available spending cash. He said it took him like 8 hours to put it together.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=868931
Click to expand...

I think it would be great to get a new thread that compiles all these similar threads, a description that summarizes them all, and have it stickied in the pre-dental forum. Attaching Bereno's spreadsheet to it (I use it myself) is also a good idea.
 
Anyone else check out this thread yet? You can create an account for free if you want to comment on it. It's a very good and insightful read.
 
Wow, if that post is talking about Penn I'm shocked at how much the tuition has gone up since I applied. I turned down an admission to Penn because it would have cost me $320k for 4 years in 2006. I can't imagine that it's gone up $80k in 6 years! :eek: What is happening? The cost of dental education is getting out of control and factor in the interest rates, it's almost impossible to come back.

As a (sort of) new dentist, I'm in the process of paying back $270k loans from dental school and undergrad. I consolidated my loans about 2 years ago and my 30 year repayment is half what hers is. It's incredible.

For all the numbers being thrown around in the posts, I can tell you that $120k - $150k is not the norm for a newly minted dentist. Those figures are generally for corporate dentistry and most people will not make those numbers coming straight out of school. I haven't hit anywhere near that yet. It's daunting to come out of school and be expected to make the same amount as someone who has practiced for several years or who owns their own, albeit small, office. Plus as more dentists have entered the market, wages have gone down. But that's a completely different thread...

With the repayment plan that I'm working through, I actually have very little money left over at the end of the month. We live off my husband's salary (very small apartment), drive old cars, buy store-brand food, I shop in thrift stores, nothing extravagant.

As a predent, I was so focused on crushing the DAT, killing interviews and getting the acceptance. No one ever sat down and discussed repayment with me. It was always "you'll have no trouble being able to pay it back." And you know, people didn't have any problems. When I started school, the interest rate jumped from 3.5% to 6.25%. :eek: Now it's becoming more and more difficult. The only counseling I had was where to apply for the loans and of course, where to sign.

If money isn't issue, then jump in and don't look back. If you need to take out $400k in student loans, crunch numbers to see how you can make it work with minimum payments and living expenses. When you've done that, crunch them again. Then do it again. Assume tons of different salary points from $70k to $200k. We have no idea where this country will be in 4 years and who knows where the average dental patient will be either.

These loans, sadly, put a huge stress on new grads to come out school and be able to PRODUCE at the rate of a seasoned dentist. "Back in the day" :rolleyes:, it used to be that you'd have a few years to come out of school and work in a few offices, see how they operated and then you bought your own. With these loans payments, there's no time to get acquainted with an office and build. Unless you have a working spouse or no loans, you need a full schedule from day one and good minimum guarantee. Few places offer that other then corporate. :mad:

Now that being said, I would still choose this job again. I love what I do. I make good money and when I've satisfied the loans my husband and I will live very well. It's just getting there that will be difficult and if it's changed this much in 6 years, how much will it change in the next 6?

Also, don't forget about taxes. They'll take $120k down to like $90k real quick.

Hope that's not too doom and gloom.
 
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When i went to UOP and was in student government, I had some wonderful conversations with the school about fees and costs. I remember well that 5-6% was the average increase in tuition cost each year. Since it cost about $70,000 a year (UOP years btw are 9 months) at a total cost of $280,000, today the cost (5 years later) should be $91,500 a year at a total cost of $366,000. Wonder what it'll be in 5 years. oh wait...it'll be $475,000. Eventually something will happen obviously...
 
Something will happen and I hope the schools get screwed and close down. This is what they get for becoming greedy corporations. For some reason it is okay for education to hire completely useless employees that are locked in with great pay and pensions, while running an extremely inefficient machine, instead of cutting cost, they will just raise tuition. Last time I have checked I didn't notice an increase in alginate costs.
 
Tuition costs spiraling out of control, yet many schools still have a hard time hiring enough faculty due to the meager rates they're being paid. Meanwhile, patient costs are increasing to reduce the tuition burden resulting in less student encounters/experiences/bang for your buck.

This is not a sustainable model. However, I don't have an alternative idea...
 
Not all schools are "greedy corporations." When the state only subsizes 5% of the operating budget of a public school (as is the case with my school), of course it's going to be outrageously expensive. Schools can be affordable if the state simply finances higher education better. Chapel Hill and MCG are prime examples.
 
So I just emailed a dentist on dentaltown. These were my questions and the response I got:

Question:

"In the thread, you posted what Midwestern U. said were the income averages for GP and Specialist, but you said each was BS. Would you comment a little on that? Also, do you think it would be reasonable to attend a school like BU or NYU, where the graduating loan balance would be $550K+? Also, what is a reasonable income for a GP who owns the practice?"


Response:

The statistics that Midwestern University were from around 2006 if I remember correctly. Incomes have dropped 15% at least since then due to the recession. Were those statistics correct in the first place? That is questionable. Those incomes would be for a doctor that owned his own practice. These days fewer and fewer docs are looking to own thier practice due to the time committment and stress. That is fine but your income will always be lower if you are not the owner. I don't know if those stats also considered associates and doctors that practiced part time. Most docs I know that are making 250k or more are in their late 40s and 50s. It takes awhile to build a practice that allows that amount of income. What I don't like is that schools make it sound like those stats are a starting salary. Not even close.
When I got out in 2006, the average for a GP associate was 80-100k. Since then, it has dropped. Probably closer to 80k now due to the recession. It will get better but many associates can only find part time work. Now imagine having 550k in loans and making 80-100k a year. That is absurdity. You have to remember, to get to that 200k plus level it may take 10 years or more. You have to be an owner to make that kind of money. In order to be an owner, you need to buy or start a practice. That's MORE debt.
I think the turning point of student debt versus dentistry is probably about 250k in student loan debt. My partner and I talk about this all the time and agree that if you have more than this in student loan debt, it's not worth it. That's another mortgage you're paying. 550K in student loans? No way. Don't even consider it. You end up with a hire net worth being a plumber, trust me.
Another thing about dental specialties... they don't make as much as you may think. When the economy goes through it's cycles of recession, specialties get hit the hardest. Plus, competition among specialists is very competititive. For several years, students thought that going into a specialty was a sure thing to a higher income, thus more applicants lead to a glut of specialists out there... I have 4-5 endodontists within a mile of me. There really is only a need for 1 or 2.
In a nutshell, there is no sure thing anymore in dentistry. Be careful what you read on DT as people like to brag about how much they make to make themselves appear successful. For each guy that brags that he's making over 300k a year (if you can believe him), there's 100 docs not posting that make 120k. This is a pretty good gig if you can keep your student loan debt low. If not, consider another profession until the student loan bubble bursts.
To answer your last question, for a GP that owns his own practice and all loans are paid off, a reasonable take home would be 150-250k. The caveat is that this doctor is usually in his late 40s, early 50s and his practice has been paid for and has been growing for 10 plus years. This is where you make the most and your income usually plateaus (top of the bell curve). For a new practice owner, a reasonable take home is 0k-150k.
Hope this helps.
 
Silent Cool said:
So I just emailed a dentist on dentaltown. These were my questions and the response I got:

Question:

"In the thread, you posted what Midwestern U. said were the income averages for GP and Specialist, but you said each was BS. Would you comment a little on that? Also, do you think it would be reasonable to attend a school like BU or NYU, where the graduating loan balance would be $550K+? Also, what is a reasonable income for a GP who owns the practice?"


Response:

The statistics that Midwestern University were from around 2006 if I remember correctly. Incomes have dropped 15% at least since then due to the recession. Were those statistics correct in the first place? That is questionable. Those incomes would be for a doctor that owned his own practice. These days fewer and fewer docs are looking to own thier practice due to the time committment and stress. That is fine but your income will always be lower if you are not the owner. I don't know if those stats also considered associates and doctors that practiced part time. Most docs I know that are making 250k or more are in their late 40s and 50s. It takes awhile to build a practice that allows that amount of income. What I don't like is that schools make it sound like those stats are a starting salary. Not even close.
When I got out in 2006, the average for a GP associate was 80-100k. Since then, it has dropped. Probably closer to 80k now due to the recession. It will get better but many associates can only find part time work. Now imagine having 550k in loans and making 80-100k a year. That is absurdity. You have to remember, to get to that 200k plus level it may take 10 years or more. You have to be an owner to make that kind of money. In order to be an owner, you need to buy or start a practice. That's MORE debt.
I think the turning point of student debt versus dentistry is probably about 250k in student loan debt. My partner and I talk about this all the time and agree that if you have more than this in student loan debt, it's not worth it. That's another mortgage you're paying. 550K in student loans? No way. Don't even consider it. You end up with a hire net worth being a plumber, trust me.
Another thing about dental specialties... they don't make as much as you may think. When the economy goes through it's cycles of recession, specialties get hit the hardest. Plus, competition among specialists is very competititive. For several years, students thought that going into a specialty was a sure thing to a higher income, thus more applicants lead to a glut of specialists out there... I have 4-5 endodontists within a mile of me. There really is only a need for 1 or 2.
In a nutshell, there is no sure thing anymore in dentistry. Be careful what you read on DT as people like to brag about how much they make to make themselves appear successful. For each guy that brags that he's making over 300k a year (if you can believe him), there's 100 docs not posting that make 120k. This is a pretty good gig if you can keep your student loan debt low. If not, consider another profession until the student loan bubble bursts.
To answer your last question, for a GP that owns his own practice and all loans are paid off, a reasonable take home would be 150-250k. The caveat is that this doctor is usually in his late 40s, early 50s and his practice has been paid for and has been growing for 10 plus years. This is where you make the most and your income usually plateaus (top of the bell curve). For a new practice owner, a reasonable take home is 0k-150k.
Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

I think this is a very nice assessment of the current situation. I would hope that ALL applicants would read this and take it to heart.
 
Silent Cool said:
So I just emailed a dentist on dentaltown. These were my questions and the response I got:

Question:

"In the thread, you posted what Midwestern U. said were the income averages for GP and Specialist, but you said each was BS. Would you comment a little on that? Also, do you think it would be reasonable to attend a school like BU or NYU, where the graduating loan balance would be $550K+? Also, what is a reasonable income for a GP who owns the practice?"


Response:

The statistics that Midwestern University were from around 2006 if I remember correctly. Incomes have dropped 15% at least since then due to the recession. Were those statistics correct in the first place? That is questionable. Those incomes would be for a doctor that owned his own practice. These days fewer and fewer docs are looking to own thier practice due to the time committment and stress. That is fine but your income will always be lower if you are not the owner. I don't know if those stats also considered associates and doctors that practiced part time. Most docs I know that are making 250k or more are in their late 40s and 50s. It takes awhile to build a practice that allows that amount of income. What I don't like is that schools make it sound like those stats are a starting salary. Not even close.
When I got out in 2006, the average for a GP associate was 80-100k. Since then, it has dropped. Probably closer to 80k now due to the recession. It will get better but many associates can only find part time work. Now imagine having 550k in loans and making 80-100k a year. That is absurdity. You have to remember, to get to that 200k plus level it may take 10 years or more. You have to be an owner to make that kind of money. In order to be an owner, you need to buy or start a practice. That's MORE debt.
I think the turning point of student debt versus dentistry is probably about 250k in student loan debt. My partner and I talk about this all the time and agree that if you have more than this in student loan debt, it's not worth it. That's another mortgage you're paying. 550K in student loans? No way. Don't even consider it. You end up with a hire net worth being a plumber, trust me.
Another thing about dental specialties... they don't make as much as you may think. When the economy goes through it's cycles of recession, specialties get hit the hardest. Plus, competition among specialists is very competititive. For several years, students thought that going into a specialty was a sure thing to a higher income, thus more applicants lead to a glut of specialists out there... I have 4-5 endodontists within a mile of me. There really is only a need for 1 or 2.
In a nutshell, there is no sure thing anymore in dentistry. Be careful what you read on DT as people like to brag about how much they make to make themselves appear successful. For each guy that brags that he's making over 300k a year (if you can believe him), there's 100 docs not posting that make 120k. This is a pretty good gig if you can keep your student loan debt low. If not, consider another profession until the student loan bubble bursts.
To answer your last question, for a GP that owns his own practice and all loans are paid off, a reasonable take home would be 150-250k. The caveat is that this doctor is usually in his late 40s, early 50s and his practice has been paid for and has been growing for 10 plus years. This is where you make the most and your income usually plateaus (top of the bell curve). For a new practice owner, a reasonable take home is 0k-150k.
Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

:thumbup: Good stuff (or accurate stuff at least). I wish we had more of this and less of the starry-eyed predental gushing.
 
Just launched a new site for recent grads to use as a resource to navigate the first few years after school. In it discusses loan repayment, finance, investing, and topics in dentistry.
Website name is:
recentdentalgrad
type it in using same format as normal website
 
UCSD6 said:
Because being a poor dentist is still better than many of the other jobs out there.
Click to expand...
Not true. Being a poor dentist will be even more difficult than being a dentist in the first place. This is not an easy job, and spending 8-9 years training to be poor, with no benefits or pension is not much to look forward to. The student loan debt crisis is real. It is very real in dentistry.
 
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