Staying at Undergrad Institution for MSTP

[huknows00]

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This is probably way too early in the app process for me to think about this, but I want to hear some of you old-timer's opinion about staying at one's undergrad institution for MD/PhD.

I am torn between staying or moving onto new things. On one hand, I am finishing up undergrad at one of the top 5 MSTP's, and they offer great opportunities in terms of research, integration and med school. On the other hand, I like the city but I don't know if I should stay here fore another 8 years, (4 + 8 = 12 years!!), especially since all my friends have moved onto new and better things. The prospect of having my entire CV filled with names of the same school is not too appealing either.

So what do you think? Is staying at the same school undesirable for one's education, future career development? Is it sensible to go to a less highly-regarded but still great institution in order to avoid staying at one place forever?

This is just a purely academic discussion, I haven't received acceptance from my undergrad school yet. I am going to interview there, however, and I would like to develop some idea of how much I actually want to stay here before I interview. Thank you for your replies, I would like to receive as much advice from anyone as possible. I am sure a lot of us are in similar situations.

 

[solitude]

Basically every academic I have ever known has said that this is a bad idea. There are plenty of people who do it, although probably not as many for MSTP (I'm only guessing here). It can definitely speed things up e.g. if you finish some of the PHD course requirements while still in undergrad, but as far as I know it is generally looked down upon.

Additionally, it is usually harder to get admitted to the same institution than it is to get admitted to comparable institutions. MSTP programs technically have a cap on the number of students from their own institution that they are allowed to admit (i.e. admit=matriculate) using NIH's money. Apparently if a program matriculates too many from their own institution then their funding can be jeopardized. For example, Duke MSTP only allows an average of 1 Duke undergrad/year matriculate in their program. So it can be considerably easier for a Duke undergrad to get into Harvard/Hopkins/UCSF/whatever MSTP than Duke MSTP, simply because those other schools are likely to admit a few (and perhaps 1 or 2 will matriculate), whereas Duke MSTP must be careful in only admitting 1 or 2 and then letting people off the waitlist when/if those admitted choose to go elsewhere.

The one exception to this rule that I know of is Harvard, which is notorious for nepotism with regards to graduate school admissions. On another thread somebody noted that the new Harvard MSTP class has 4 Harvard undergrads!

I am curious to see what other people have to say about the general discussion, or about my comments in particular. I should note that my comments about Duke MSTP admissions are second-hand evidence, from the mouth of the Duke MSTP director, via an MSTP student here.

This is probably way too early in the app process for me to think about this, but I want to hear some of you old-timer's opinion about staying at one's undergrad institution for MD/PhD.

I am torn between staying or moving onto new things. On one hand, I am finishing up undergrad at one of the top 5 MSTP's, and they offer great opportunities in terms of research, integration and med school. On the other hand, I like the city but I don't know if I should stay here fore another 8 years, (4 + 8 = 12 years!!), especially since all my friends have moved onto new and better things. The prospect of having my entire CV filled with names of the same school is not too appealing either.

So what do you think? Is staying at the same school undesirable for one's education, future career development? Is it sensible to go to a less highly-regarded but still great institution in order to avoid staying at one place forever?

This is just a purely academic discussion, I haven't received acceptance from my undergrad school yet. I am going to interview there, however, and I would like to develop some idea of how much I actually want to stay here before I interview. Thank you for your replies, I would like to receive as much advice from anyone as possible. I am sure a lot of us are in similar situations.

 

[beary]

I think that it doesn't really matter if you do your undergrad and MSTP at the same place. Where it can be important to go to a different institutions is at the intersection between MSTP and residency/postdoc.

I'm in my last year of MSTP right now and it doesn't seem like anybody cares what I did as an undergraduate since it was so long ago.

 

[ChyLn]

I'd have to agree with Beary. While I think it may be nice to have a change in scenery, I don't think staying in the same place as your undergrad as making a negative impact on your development as a scientist. I am definitely considering staying at my undergrad for MD/PhD (assuming I get in, of course!)

 

[Neuronix]

I should note that my comments about Duke MSTP admissions are second-hand evidence, from the mouth of the Duke MSTP director, via an MSTP student here.

I remember when I interviewed at Duke that Sal was particularly adamant about this point compared to other program directors. The problem is, opinions about this vary widely depending on who you talk to. There is some bias at each program against their own undergrads, but then again you can almost bet that every single undergrad applying MD/PhD will apply to their own school.

As far as the name of the school goes, if you're going to a MSTP it's a big enough named school and I wouldn't worry about stepping down in some sort of ranking.

 

[tr]

Having done this exact thing, I would generally recommend against it.

I think it's useful to see how science works at different institutions. Different places have different research emphases, and it's valuable to get a broad understanding of what sorts of things are out there.

For me, I elected to stay at the same institution because it happened that this university was extremely strong in my area of interest. In addition, I generally preferred urban locations, and no other institution to which I was admitted had my desired combination of location and research.

So faced with the same choice I would do it again; but I do think it would have been advantageous for me to be exposed to some other research environments. What I hear from other students and postdocs leads me to believe that there is a lot of variation from place to place.

Also there's a strictly psychological issue for me, which is that I just generally feel more and more ******ed as I get older and my friends move on to different things. I've been at the same institution (barring a one-year break after graduation) since 1995(!!). That just doesn't sit well with me, and I'm about ready to tear out of here and go somewhere - anywhere - else.

 

[microTAS]

I faced the same decision last year and decided on a new institution over a super quick phd at the undergrad stronghold.

But I think if I was hypothetically an undergrad at my new university, I would have stayed. So in other words, don't worry too much about staying or going, consider the other important factors to you: research, location (family, weather), curriculum.

The medical education is pretty much the same for us mstps anywhere. We'll be so focused on getting a good research career that the extra clinical benefits of each school are less beneficial. Flexibility is definitely good. The research environment can be different at different school but you can have situations where you do a collaborator-related research period elsewhere. I think the benefits of seeing one new research environment is marginal compared to the research you like and your ideal location.

 

[CaipirinhaQuinho]

If the school accepts someone outside of their undergrad institution then they will have an extra alumni. Since you will be an alum of the ugrad and grad you would probably only donate once whereas if they accepted someone outside of their ugrad then they would still get your donation plus another.

I don't completely believe in this way of thinking but it was brought up by a friend of mine when we were talking about Hopkins who is notorious for not "taking care of their own."

 

[IBleedGreen]

I'm not MSTP, but I am MD/PhD. I ended up getting accepted to the same school as my undergrad and stayed here. During 1st year I decided I wanted to continue with research, so I applied for the graduate neuroscience program. I spoke with professors and graduate students to get their thoughts on staying at the same institution. Most of them said that if I were pursuing a PhD only, then it's better to go to a different institution. But, they acknowledged that an MD/PhD is a different matter because you aren't going to spend the 4-6 years most grad students take to get a PhD. And this way I'll definitely have to go somewhere else for residency 🙂

I think it really comes down to how your situation is at your current school. I enjoy the lab I worked in in undergrad and feel that I can really learn a lot about science and research continuing with the same mentor. When you ultimately finish, I don't think people will really care where you got the dual degree from. More importantly, will you feel burnt out by that time or will you have enjoyed the time you spent preparing for life after it?

 

[b&ierstiefel]

I don't completely believe in this way of thinking but it was brought up by a friend of mine when we were talking about Hopkins who is notorious for not "taking care of their own."

Things may have changed but in the late 90's, Hopkins certainly did not take care of its own as you say it. Hopkins will grant quite a few Hopkins undergrads for interviews but extend very few acceptances to its undergrads. It's funny...you have many people who go to Hopkins undergrad, complete a major in BME (which is very excruciatingly rigorous), and do research at the medical school thinking that they will be at an advantage when it comes down to being accepted by Hopkins. Boy, are they in for a rude awakening!

 

[CaipirinhaQuinho]

Things may have changed but in the late 90's, Hopkins certainly did not take care of its own as you say it. Hopkins will grant quite a few Hopkins undergrads for interviews but extend very few acceptances to its undergrads. It's funny...you have many people who go to Hopkins undergrad, complete a major in BME (which is very excruciatingly rigorous), and do research at the medical school thinking that they will be at an advantage when it comes down to being accepted by Hopkins. Boy, are they in for a rude awakening!

You're preaching to the choir.

-'05 JHU BME

 

[b&ierstiefel]

You're preaching to the choir.

-'05 JHU BME

Didn't know you went to Hopkins. Guess things haven't changed much.

-'98 JHU A&S (Biology)