Step-1 emphasizing programs

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PL198

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Are there specific programs known to emphasize step 1 scores more than others? I'm comparing this basically to certain medical schools that are known to put more stock into the MCAT than others. Just curious.
Note: I am not reflecting on the validity of step 1 as a metric for student performance, how good of a doctor they will become etc.
Note 2: I am not talking about specialties, I'm talking specific programs.
 
Are there specific programs known to emphasize step 1 scores more than others? I'm comparing this basically to certain medical schools that are known to put more stock into the MCAT than others. Just curious.
Note: I am not reflecting on the validity of step 1 as a metric for student performance, how good of a doctor they will become etc.
Note 2: I am not talking about specialties, I'm talking specific programs.
The emphasis on Step 1 is directly related to specialties AND programs. You can't talk about one without talking about the other.
 
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The emphasis on Step 1 is directly related to specialties AND programs. You can't talk about one without talking about the other.

Ok that's more of what I meant, I just didn't want to get responses like " well ortho usually has good step 1 scores," I wanted something like " XYZ ortho program"
 
Are there specific programs known to emphasize step 1 scores more than others? I'm comparing this basically to certain medical schools that are known to put more stock into the MCAT than others. Just curious.
Note: I am not reflecting on the validity of step 1 as a metric for student performance, how good of a doctor they will become etc.
Note 2: I am not talking about specialties, I'm talking specific programs.
I don't know for sure, but I would venture to guess that the big-name powerhouse residency programs go for the higher step 1 scorers, just as the powerhouse med schools would judge highly based off MCAT scores.
 
Ok that's more of what I meant, I just didn't want to get responses like " well ortho usually has good step 1 scores," I wanted something like " XYZ ortho program"
Well, Ortho bc it's a competitive specialty, tends to value Step 1 scores more. Why? Bc it's an easy metric to cut down the number of applications that they have to look at bc they get so many. They can afford to do that bc it's a "competitive" specialty (at least for now), what will distinguish the competition at each program is probably location, prestige, fellowships, etc. but it's still quite competitive even for the last ranked Ortho program.

However, if you look at IM, which is relatively non-competitive as a specialty, near the top, at places like MGH, Brigham, UCSF, etc. those people more likely than not will be the 240+, AOA type (and not surprisingly from top tier medical schools) and can afford to be pickier in their selection. Near the bottom, IM community program, not as much.
 
You can look at the FREIDA website. Some programs list their step 1 cut-offs. For example, jefferson ortho requires at least 240 for interview, while Harvard considers any step 1 above 200.
 
You can look at the FREIDA website. Some programs list their step 1 cut-offs. For example, jefferson ortho requires at least 240 for interview, while Harvard considers any step 1 above 200.
Really?!!? Is this a common thing now?
 
Really?!!? Is this a common thing now?

Yep. Most programs list a score in the 220's, but theres a handful that list 240.

I've noticed quite a couple programs say something very differently on FREIDA then what they do on their website... (E.g. saying they don't use a cutoff on their website and publishing one on FREIDA, or just a different cutoff on both)

Yeah, I'm sure there's some variability based on the PD. But I know for sure that my home program's listed step 1 cut off on FRIEDA is accurate, and I'm guessing the majority of the others are as well. FRIEDA is updated every cycle, while program websites can stagnate for years.
 
Yep. Most programs list a score in the 220's, but theres a handful that list 240.

Yeah, I'm sure there's some variability based on the PD. But I know for sure that my home program's listed step 1 cut off on FRIEDA is accurate, and I'm guessing the majority of the others are as well. FRIEDA is updated every cycle, while program websites can stagnate for years.
There are a few Derm programs that do that as well although they are more subtle. MUSC's Derm program on VSAS doesn't even let you audition rotate with them unless your Step 1 is at least 250. 🙄
 
There are a few Derm programs that do that as well although they are more subtle. MUSC's Derm program on VSAS doesn't even let you audition rotate with them unless your Step 1 is at least 250. 🙄

Interesting... heard of this in ortho as well, particularly at places that heavily favor rotators. Always amazes me how some of these programs are so shamelessly obsessed with the numbers game.
 
Interesting... heard of this in ortho as well, particularly at places that heavily favor rotators. Always amazes me how some of these programs are so shamelessly obsessed with the numbers game.
Esp. since many of their faculty members had nowhere close to those numbers when they applied in med school, since it wasn't competitive then.
 
You have to be an AMA member to access FREIDA. Is it worth the $20/year membership?
 
There are a few Derm programs that do that as well although they are more subtle. MUSC's Derm program on VSAS doesn't even let you audition rotate with them unless your Step 1 is at least 250. 🙄

People should be happy about that. It would be worse if people were doing audition rotations for which they had 0 chance anyway. That's why I always hated hearing that a program interviewed all their rotators. Pity interview is worse than none at all since you have to pay for all the associated costs.
 
The website says that it's $20 for a single-year membership for med students

Shoot if it's free or not, I'm not gonna make an account that the AMA can add to their tallies, f*ck them.
 
FREDIA is basically useless though.

Half of the programs don't even have a cutoff listed and the other half are out-of-date or ridiculously low.
 
FREDIA is basically useless though.

Half of the programs don't even have a cutoff listed and the other half are out-of-date or ridiculously low.

Depends on the specialty you're interested in. There are plenty of legit cut offs listed for ortho programs.
 
You can look at the FREIDA website. Some programs list their step 1 cut-offs. For example, jefferson ortho requires at least 240 for interview, while Harvard considers any step 1 above 200.

Great program! But, that being said, what is up with every guy in medical school wanting to Ortho?
 
Great program! But, that being said, what is up with every guy in medical school wanting to Ortho?

Everyone, not just guys say they want to do ortho. Literally 60-70 % of my class wants to do ortho. It's so enraging. Honestly I think it's just the idiots that look up salaries and are like " zomg I want to do ortho."

I don't even understand why 90 % of them would be interested, like some people are decently athletic so I can see the interest, and other people are really into anatomy. Other people are just like neither and I have literally 0 idea why they'd actually be interested, aside from money. Not being a d*ck here, as I can see why every profession would be desirable to certain people without hating on it, I just truly don't see any other reason why the majorities would be interested in it.
 
FREDIA is basically useless though.

Half of the programs don't even have a cutoff listed and the other half are out-of-date or ridiculously low.

The Freida data is all self reported, usually by the program coordinator. So it is often totally inaccurate and nearly always outdated
 
Great program! But, that being said, what is up with every guy in medical school wanting to Ortho?

Everyone, not just guys say they want to do ortho. Literally 60-70 % of my class wants to do ortho. It's so enraging. Honestly I think it's just the idiots that look up salaries and are like " zomg I want to do ortho."

I don't even understand why 90 % of them would be interested, like some people are decently athletic so I can see the interest, and other people are really into anatomy. Other people are just like neither and I have literally 0 idea why they'd actually be interested, aside from money. Not being a d*ck here, as I can see why every profession would be desirable to certain people without hating on it, I just truly don't see any other reason why the majorities would be interested in it.

Dunno why your schools are so crazy about it, mine has only a small number interested. Probably 25-30 people over all 4 years.

When you get on the wards, you'll see how rarely treatments in medicine actually work. The beauty of ortho is that successful treatment is routine, and you're constantly making people's lives better. Feelsgoodman.jpg. There was a JAMA article not to long ago that demonstrated that total joint arthroplasty provides more quality-adjusted life-years than any other type of surgery in any field.

Plus, you're not futzing around with a pair of sticks trying to grab a slippery appendix/gall bladder in someone's abdomen. No sticking tweezers or long instruments into someone's ears/nose/throat. You're making big incisions and grabbing things with your hands, doing some carpentry, and installing highly-engineered devices and hardware. It's cool stuff.

The atheletic component is such a small part of ortho, not sure why everyone focuses on it. Most ortho patients are really old or young, unless you do sports medicine. I guess trauma has some age variety, but old people break bones more often as well. Orthopaedists aren't jocks anymore than any other field, it's just an old joke/stereotype.
 
Great program! But, that being said, what is up with every guy in medical school wanting to Ortho?
Everyone, not just guys say they want to do ortho. Literally 60-70 % of my class wants to do ortho. It's so enraging. Honestly I think it's just the idiots that look up salaries and are like " zomg I want to do ortho."

I don't even understand why 90 % of them would be interested, like some people are decently athletic so I can see the interest, and other people are really into anatomy. Other people are just like neither and I have literally 0 idea why they'd actually be interested, aside from money. Not being a d*ck here, as I can see why every profession would be desirable to certain people without hating on it, I just truly don't see any other reason why the majorities would be interested in it.
Probably bc of the machismo and athletics of it (i.e. Sports Medicine) augmented by salary:
upload_2014-7-26_18-57-49.jpeg
 
Everyone, not just guys say they want to do ortho. Literally 60-70 % of my class wants to do ortho. It's so enraging. Honestly I think it's just the idiots that look up salaries and are like " zomg I want to do ortho."

I don't even understand why 90 % of them would be interested, like some people are decently athletic so I can see the interest, and other people are really into anatomy. Other people are just like neither and I have literally 0 idea why they'd actually be interested, aside from money. Not being a d*ck here, as I can see why every profession would be desirable to certain people without hating on it, I just truly don't see any other reason why the majorities would be interested in it.


Cool! Sounds like
Dunno why your schools are so crazy about it, mine has only a small number interested. Probably 25-30 people over all 4 years.

When you get on the wards, you'll see how rarely treatments in medicine actually work. The beauty of ortho is that successful treatment is routine, and you're constantly making people's lives better. Feelsgoodman.jpg. There was a JAMA article not to long ago that demonstrated that total joint arthroplasty provides more quality-adjusted life-years than any other type of surgery in any field.

Plus, you're not futzing around with a pair of sticks trying to grab a slippery appendix/gall bladder in someone's abdomen. No sticking tweezers or long instruments into someone's ears/nose/throat. You're making big incisions and grabbing things with your hands, doing some carpentry, and installing highly-engineered devices and hardware. It's cool stuff.

slippery appendix/gall bladder in someone's abdomen
-- Really? Nope.

Literally 60-70 % of my class wants to do ortho. It's so enraging. Honestly I think it's just the idiots that look up salaries and are like " zomg I want to do ortho.

That's what I was talking about.

The atheletic component is such a small part of ortho, not sure why everyone focuses on it. Most ortho patients are really old or young, unless you do sports medicine. I guess trauma has some age variety, but old people break bones more often as well. Orthopaedists aren't jocks anymore than any other field, it's just an old joke/stereotype.
 
Anyone feel sorry for all of the people who "think" they are going to be an ENT/orthopod/dermatologist on day 1 of medical school, try to do research, and then end up with a low step 1 while others calmly and methodically get their respectably high scores.
 
Anyone feel sorry for all of the people who "think" they are going to be an ENT/orthopod/dermatologist on day 1 of medical school, try to do research, and then end up with a low step 1 while others calmly and methodically get their respectably high scores.
Your attempts at trolling really do need some work.
 
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Not trolling but thanks anyways. Maybe around 40 kids in my class did research in those 3 fields their first 2 years and now there might be 6-8 total who are still thinking that. OP asked about step-1 emphasizing programs so people should know that these fields fit the bill (like you said earlier)
 
Depends on the specialty you're interested in. There are plenty of legit cut offs listed for ortho programs.

Good.

I was looking at mostly EM and IM, which aren't the most forthcoming when it comes to listing cut-offs.
 
Yeah I've always wondered about the post step 1 change in people's career desires. Do people openly discuss what professions they want to do 3rd year and after? It seems to me like these would indirectly reveal step 1 scores. Though I'm sure there are a least a few delusional people that apply to ortho with like 200 step 1 scores and still expect to make it. Not to mention I'm sure this makes a few people have a mid life crisis as pathways are relatively opened/closed that they weren't expecting.
 
Dunno why your schools are so crazy about it, mine has only a small number interested. Probably 25-30 people over all 4 years.

When you get on the wards, you'll see how rarely treatments in medicine actually work. The beauty of ortho is that successful treatment is routine, and you're constantly making people's lives better. Feelsgoodman.jpg. There was a JAMA article not to long ago that demonstrated that total joint arthroplasty provides more quality-adjusted life-years than any other type of surgery in any field.

Plus, you're not futzing around with a pair of sticks trying to grab a slippery appendix/gall bladder in someone's abdomen. No sticking tweezers or long instruments into someone's ears/nose/throat. You're making big incisions and grabbing things with your hands, doing some carpentry, and installing highly-engineered devices and hardware. It's cool stuff.

The atheletic component is such a small part of ortho, not sure why everyone focuses on it. Most ortho patients are really old or young, unless you do sports medicine. I guess trauma has some age variety, but old people break bones more often as well. Orthopaedists aren't jocks anymore than any other field, it's just an old joke/stereotype.

I agree with you about those being reasons it's cool, but the avg M1 doesn't know these things. So I guess I just don't understand. Honestly whenever I talk to any pre-meds I know, 95% of them will say ortho is what they want to go into.
 
Great program! But, that being said, what is up with every guy in medical school wanting to Ortho?

Our class has at least 16 this year out of ~150.

They almost couldn't fit everyone in for summer AIs.

Its likely a combination of great salary, less paperwork/social work, high patient satisfaction, and a more fun/laid back environment.

FWIW if I had to do surgery I'd also do orthopedics. One of the main reasons why I love EM is because of all the ortho patients.
 
Yeah I've always wondered about the post step 1 change in people's career desires. Do people openly discuss what professions they want to do 3rd year and after? It seems to me like these would indirectly reveal step 1 scores. Though I'm sure there are a least a few delusional people that apply to ortho with like 200 step 1 scores and still expect to make it. Not to mention I'm sure this makes a few people have a mid life crisis as pathways are relatively opened/closed that they weren't expecting.
I think it's a combination of things. I think as you progress in medical school you get a clearer picture of what you can shoot for (although sometimes things can be mitigated somewhat by taking a year off and doing research): based on your preclinical grades (assuming you go to a school that isn't true P/F those years), clinical grades, Step scores, etc.

I think as far as discussion, it depends on your class makeup. If you have a very collaborative class, then people might reveal it. If not, then you won't find out till the beginning of MS-4. Part of it's ego, I think, as well. The match is always a playing of the odds. I think there will always be cases, in which some people will be "delusional" as you term it. Some people will have all their ducks in a row, and make a bad impression on interviews.

It's the job of your med school faculty and student affairs office to advise you accordingly, although sometimes the latter can be just as clueless.
 
Our class has at least 16 this year out of ~150.

They almost couldn't fit everyone in for summer AIs.

Its likely a combination of great salary, less paperwork/social work, high patient satisfaction, and a more fun/laid back environment.

FWIW if I had to do surgery I'd also do orthopedics. One of the main reasons why I love EM is because of all the ortho patients.
Was this after MS-1?
 
Our class has at least 16 this year out of ~150.

They almost couldn't fit everyone in for summer AIs.

Its likely a combination of great salary, less paperwork/social work, high patient satisfaction, and a more fun/laid back environment.

FWIW if I had to do surgery I'd also do orthopedics. One of the main reasons why I love EM is because of all the ortho patients.

Yea. The workers comp patients would do me in.
 
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I agree with you about those being reasons it's cool, but the avg M1 doesn't know these things. So I guess I just don't understand. Honestly whenever I talk to any pre-meds I know, 95% of them will say ortho is what they want to go into.

That's interesting and pretty weird. All the premeds I talk to want to be paul farmer/atul gawande, saving the world one ethiopian primary care visit at a time. I find that most pre meds and people at my school are pretty bashful about showing ambition for the competitive specialties.

Plus, all the "me ortho, me fix bone" jokes actually do turn some people off from the field. I still argue that ortho and EM get crapped on more than any other docs in the hospital. If you need respect from your colleagues, then the other surgical specialties are the way to go, because ortho gets close to none.

Uro/Plastics/ENT/Nsurg/Ophtho = people say "super smart, best students in the class, wish I had the scores for those fields, etc..."
Ortho = people say "Smartest students become the dumbest doctors, wasn't even competitive in the 70's, etc..."

Yea. The workers comp patients would do me in.

Workers comp is a drag, but even in spine it's only like 1 out of 10 patients. Besides, orthopedists generally deal with the ones who actually need surgery. So even if they're getting workers comp, its because they got effed up pretty bad and deserved it. Primary care and PM&R have to put up with all the fakers and iffy cases.
 
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Our school has such a huge emphasis on Primary Care that when I went to a Derm interest meeting, only 2 others showed up. One was an MS1 and the other was an MS3 who got a 259 on his Step 1, so he was competitive Step 1-wise. Literally, 87% of my class including me will be going into Primary Care. Of that, a little over half will do IM. That makes the residency spot at our hospital (only level-1 trauma center in the state) very competitive. I myself scored a 246 (so happy when I got my score), so if I decide to come back after navy residency I am competitive (if they still look at step 1 scores at that point).
 
Our school has such a huge emphasis on Primary Care that when I went to a Derm interest meeting, only 2 others showed up. One was an MS1 and the other was an MS3 who got a 259 on his Step 1, so he was competitive Step 1-wise. Literally, 87% of my class including me will be going into Primary Care. Of that, a little over half will do IM. That makes the residency spot at our hospital (only level-1 trauma center in the state) very competitive. I myself scored a 246 (so happy when I got my score), so if I decide to come back after navy residency I am competitive (if they still look at step 1 scores at that point).

So close to 50% of your entire class will go into IM. How many of them will become general internists?

The notion that IM = primary care is more than a tad flawed, but it's one that medical school administrators love to manipulate to fit their dialogue.

Then again, maybe very few people from your school that go into IM end up doing a fellowship. I find that very hard to believe, though.
 
So close to 50% of your entire class will go into IM. How many of them will become general internists?

The notion that IM = primary care is more than a tad flawed, but it's one that medical school administrators love to manipulate to fit their dialogue.

Then again, maybe very few people from your school that go into IM end up doing a fellowship. I find that very hard to believe, though.
No, of the 87%, around 53% of those will be competing for IM residencies. A lot of them right now have what specialty they want (Cardio is leading the trail, followed by Neuro). Some of them barely passed (lowest I heard was 212). Some, like me, got some pretty great scores that can get us out of the state. At our school, we have an actual student-run board that specifically helps students that are pursuing internal medicine. I am on the committee and we are trying to get a scholarship for students to specialize in IM and stay in state (gotta start talking to the State Gov!)
 
So close to 50% of your entire class will go into IM. How many of them will become general internists?

The notion that IM = primary care is more than a tad flawed, but it's one that medical school administrators love to manipulate to fit their dialogue.

Then again, maybe very few people from your school that go into IM end up doing a fellowship. I find that very hard to believe, though.
Yes, it's called the Dean's lie: http://www.google.com/#q=Dean's+lie
 
A lot of them right now have what specialty they want (Cardio is leading the trail, followed by Neuro).

Wait what?

I don't know why you're bringing people interested in Neuro into the conversation as that is not a subspecialty of Internal Medicine and would not involve those people you're talking about.

And a 212 isn't "barely passing."

I'm becoming increasingly confused when I go back and read your post. Are you not from the US?
 
Wait what?

I don't know why you're bringing people interested in Neuro into the conversation as that is not a subspecialty of Internal Medicine and would not involve those people you're talking about.

And a 212 isn't "barely passing."

I'm becoming increasingly confused when I go back and read your post. Are you not from the US?
Sorry, not Neuro. Meant to type Nephro.

Once again, it's what I heard. I could've sworn a 212 was passing.

Yes, I am located in the U.S.
 
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