Step 1 stats for schools and residencies

[BillyRubinstein]

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ANyone out there aware of a site that posts the different step 1 averages at different schools? or even avg. step 1 scores for first year docs in various residency programs?

 

[Laureltree]

I have been looking for the exact same info. Someone have an answer?

 

[diosa428]

The following documents contain info about the step 1 scores in each type of residency (IM, Peds, etc): http://www.nrmp.org/data/index.html, but it doesn't contain info regarding each individual program specifically. I don't think you can get that info anywhere. You can always try posting on the specialty forums to get an idea of what places are competitive, but I doubt anyone is going to be able to give you exact numbers.

 

[lord_jeebus]

You won't find it.

Premeds are always looking, and it hasn't been discovered yet

Most schools like to keep this under wraps...or exaggerate their stats.

Bear in mind that the variation between schools is much smaller than the variation within schools, meaning that almost all of your performance is dictated by factors other than your school of choice.

 

[JeffLebowski]

ANyone out there aware of a site that posts the different step 1 averages at different schools? or even avg. step 1 scores for first year docs in various residency programs?

Doesn't exist. No one can force a school to release performance data like that, though some do it willingly.

Although, it would be an interesting project if a motivated pre-med or med student wanted to call up every Dean of Student Affairs and compile a list of all Step I averages that the schools don't mind sharing. But the ones you see on SDN posted should probably not be taken seriously.

I agree with jeebs though that just because school X's avg is 234 and school Y's avg is 224, doesn't mean you'll score higher at school X if a student were to attend school X instead of school Y. You may, you may not. There's really no way to study that or answer that question, even off of relative Step I performance (averages). There are so many factors, it becomes very difficult to figure out what's responsible for your Step I score. I mean there's an MCAT/Step I correlation already established...so if school X has a higher average incoming MCAT score compared to school Y...there you go. In all likelihood, the difference between Harvard and Howard's Step I probably boils down to the type of student they accept...so if you are accepted to both, you should be glad that you're of the caliber to score in the "Harvard range" on Step I...presumably even if you go to Howard. And I think performance in basic science classes correlates to Step I performance, so that's another factor (and a difficult one to extrapolate). From there, I would guess that there are study resources and techniques that correlate to higher Step I performance, (like completion of a qbank, hours studied, etc.). All of these are individual characteristics, with the possible exception of attending a school that teaches basic science material well, though again - the studies show that performance correlates with Step I score, not mastery of the material. So if you go to a school who teaches basic science material well that's great, but if I remember correctly there's only been an established link between getting good grades and doing better on Step I, not just sitting through classes that are supposedly "better" than equivalent classes at another school.

I think the best advice for pre-meds thinking ahead to, "okay, I want to attend a school that'll best put me in a position to be successful" is the same boring advice that we always say: go where you feel like you FIT best. Because what you bring to the table really really seems to outweigh the external factors like whether your school covered immunoglobulin recombination well or whether you had a didactic session on murmurs.

 

[diosa428]

I'm not sure the OP is premed, considering his sig says "SGU Class of 2010".

 

[Law2Doc]

Doesn't exist. No one can force a school to release performance data like that, though some do it willingly.

Yeah, schools have tacitly agreed to keep this under wraps, as they are afraid that if such an objective standard of which school is "better" gets out it kind of ties their hands in terms of improving curriculum, emphasizing research, trying things like PBL, early clinical exposure and other things that they hope make people stronger physicians. The schools don't want to have to "teach to the boards", and be stuck in "black letter" classroom mode in lieu of these other things. So they don't release the scores, and students aren't supposed to rely on them. And because they aren't released, pretty much every school is at liberty to tell applicants that their scores are "above average" for US schools (despite the fact that half likely aren't). Of course one or two schools (usually lowly ranked ones who have nothing to lose by violating this arrangement) do put their higher than average scores on the web each year, proving that the scores certainly aren't particularly well correlated to the US News ranking of the schools.

Truth of the matter is that schools are going to cover pretty much the same information in one fashion or another, and everyone uses the same FirstAid, the same qbanks, the same board review subject books. So it is up to the student to score what he's going to score. No school is going to make the difference here, and to the extent schools have better scores, it's because they likely select for the right work ethic during admissions, not because they add more value than the rest of the pack. The schools will give you lectures and notesets and keep you on your toes with frequent detail oriented tests, but when all is said and done, you are going to learn medicine on your own.

 

[ZonaRidicularis]

z

 

[GMDMD]

Truth of the matter is that schools are going to cover pretty much the same information in one fashion or another, and everyone uses the same FirstAid, the same qbanks, the same board review subject books. So it is up to the student to score what he's going to score. No school is going to make the difference here, and to the extent schools have better scores, it's because they likely select for the right work ethic during admissions, not because they add more value than the rest of the pack. The schools will give you lectures and notesets and keep you on your toes with frequent detail oriented tests, but when all is said and done, you are going to learn medicine on your own.

I'm not sure I agree here. Some schools are better than others at providing more focused / relevant material versus having phd's lecture on their esoteric research. i know one top 25 school, for example, where there are many complaints that their board scores don't match up to what their mcats would predict. certainly it's the exception rather than the rule. there are also many crappy schools where there isn't as much attention paid to the curriculum.

While studying for step 1 I never really got the sense that I was unprepared for the material. I have some friends at other schools who felt like a larger portion of the material they were seeing for the first time.

There is so much material to learn the first two years, I think it is absolutely makes a difference how much effort the faculty puts into making sure the curriculum is correctly focused and high yield.

The quality of your pathology lecturers I think would make a big difference as well. If Goljan is teaching at your school vs. some random schmoe...

 

[Law2Doc]

i know one top 25 school, for example, where there are many complaints that their board scores don't match up to what their mcats would predict. ... If Goljan is teaching at your school vs. some random schmoe...

I'm not sure I agree with these sentences. The MCAT is not nearly as good a "predictor" of board scores as actual med school performance, particularly during second year subjects. (In fact if you look at the studies, which have some flaws, as discussed in other threads, they aren't good "predictors" at all; the studies actually show a slight correlation, not a direct predictive value. Which is why a lot of the top schools don't care as much about the absolute top scores, they just want above a certain high threshold and then move their focus to other parts of your app). If folks are acing second year and still not doing well on the test then perhaps they have grounds to complain, but saying -- we all scored above a 35 so we all should score above 250 doesn't really hold water. It's about how hard you work and push yourself. So yeah, the couple of top schools which have never failed anybody and everyone gets a P regardless, and thus don't really push their students throughout the year, probably do end up with lackluster steps, if the students aren't the type that can drive themselves. If they are, then they do fine, regardless of the school.

And the schools that don't really do a good job of capturing "work ethic" in their admissions process (it's hard to do and some places do a better job than others) probably lose the battle in the adcom, years before the folks sit for the test.

As for Goljan, you hear lots of praises of him by the folks who did well using him, but I suspect the folks who didn't do as well simply don't post on the subject. I wouldn't knock the cast of random schmoes until you give them a chance. And I don't think Goljan teaches at one of the more prestigious schools, FWIW, and his books are widely available through Amazon so anyone can really get a piece of him, regardless of where they attend.

 

[GMDMD]

As for Goljan, you hear lots of praises of him by the folks who did well using him, but I suspect the folks who didn't do as well simply don't post on the subject. I wouldn't knock the cast of random schmoes until you give them a chance. And I don't think Goljan teaches at one of the more prestigious schools, FWIW, and his books are widely available through Amazon so anyone can really get a piece of him, regardless of where they attend.

I didn't mean to imply that MCAT scores directly correlate with success on the boards but the top schools all to tend hover around the higher end of mcat averages. And since for the most part all schools are looking for those "other qualities" as a huge part of the admissions process, a top 25 school would select for a similar caliber of motivated students. Therefore underperforming relative to your mcat scores would signal a curriculum problem to me.

Goljan vs. joe schmoe pathologist was a poor and extreme example on my part. But from personal experience we had some fabulous pathology lectures and then we had quite a few lecturers that made me want to blow my brains out... there was quite a bit of variance. But during Step1 prep it was obvious to me that material covered by the ****ty lecturers I had to spend twice as much time reviewing and sometimes learning for the first time. Other path material I just knew because it had been taught so well the first time around.

Some schools have much stronger pathology departments, and higher quality of pathology lectures across the board. I suspect their students benefit greatly from this compared to other schools where teaching is a weakness of the path department.

 

[Law2Doc]

And since for the most part all schools are looking for those "other qualities" as a huge part of the admissions process, a top 25 school would select for a similar caliber of motivated students. Therefore underperforming relative to your mcat scores would signal a curriculum problem to me.

I still think using the MCAT as a gauge is a mistake, for reasons I won't rehash from other threads. While all schools look for these "other qualities", I am not so sure the top 25 schools do a better job of selecting for them. Which is probably why those no name schools that post their board scores do so well by comparison -- they aren't necessarilly teaching better (although they might be "teaching to the boards" to a greater extent), but perhaps selected folks with the right work ethic. This is pure speculation on my part, but I think a number of the folks who get into the top schools were the kind of folks in college who aced things without ever breaking a sweat. At least those I've come across were of this type. A much smaller number of these savants find their way into the lesser schools, whose applicants more often were the other extremes and had to earn every point they got. Since med school isn't as easy to simply kick back and absorb in, some of these coasters won't put in the effort to get the top scores in med school, and as a result, on the board. In addition, some of the top schools have the more lenient grading systems (never failing folks, making things P/F (really P/P) throughout), and thus don't really push their savants. You can be brilliant, but if you don't work hard you aren't going to get the top score. You still will probably do a whole lot better than the dude at the lesser school who also didn't study, but there will be fewer of those at such school, where the schools force them to work harder just to not repeat things. No idea if this is true, but it's my explanation for why some of the students at top schools seem to feel their scores are lacking. It has less to do with what the school does to prepare you and everything to do with what you do to prepare you.

 

[osli]

Some schools have much stronger pathology departments, and higher quality of pathology lectures across the board. I suspect their students benefit greatly from this compared to other schools where teaching is a weakness of the path department.

I agree completely. Our school has a very good if eccentric pathology professor, and this was by far the easiest area for me to prepare for the USMLE and COMLEX. In fact, there was a very clear relationship during my board prep between the quality of the lecturer in a given subject or on a given topic and the ease and time required for me to adequately review that area. If I ran across something that looked completely unfamiliar, I could invariably think back and go "oh, yeah, that was so and so that gave that series of lecturers..."

 

[BillyRubinstein]

I'm not sure the OP is premed, considering his sig says "SGU Class of 2010".

Sorry - didn't mean to give off the impression I was a pre-med trying to make a decision based on different schools' board scores.....



Just trying (simply out of curiosity) to see how my step 1 score stacks up against different U.S. schools, since I go to SGU and scored rather lowly on the mcat (24) and managed to pull out a 239 on the step 1.... for those of us who didn't get into a U.S. school it was quite frustrating always being told how the mcat correlates with step 1 performance....



When I was preparing for the mcat 3 yrs. ago, I just remember the inference being made to a bunch of us pre-meders that if we score poorly on the mcat, chances are we won't do all that well on the step 1, should we ever get into a school .....I always felt that a was a crock of $hit because I literally had no inherent interest in learning about things such as "backside attacks" in o.chem or vectors in physics.....(in a way, I'm glad I bombed the mcat because living in Grenada for 2 yrs. was pretty damn cool, when I start retrospecting)......I suppose I had always wondered and still do wonder what role "inherent interest" in a particular subject or field plays in determining scores on particular exams, as opposed to some score we received on a previous standardized exam that has nothing to do with the exam it being correlated to.......I bet if they manipulated the stats in the "right way" they could find a correlation between the CTBS scores we received on our 2nd grade standardized exams, and Step1.



....sorry for the rant



On a side note, I'm also shooting for Neurology, and I want to get into a very good program, so I am also trying to find figures and stats pertaining to the avg. first yr. neuro resident's step 1 score in various programs (eg. I'm sure Neuro Residents at COlumbia have a higher step avg. than those at a remote program out in the midwest)

 

[Law2Doc]

On a side note, I'm also shooting for Neurology, and I want to get into a very good program, so I am also trying to find figures and stats pertaining to the avg. first yr. neuro resident's step 1 score in various programs (eg. I'm sure Neuro Residents at COlumbia have a higher step avg. than those at a remote program out in the midwest)

What scores residencies are looking for is a very different question than what scores various med schools produce. Top residency programs tend to require higher scores than lower ranked programs. Students who are coming from non-US schools reportedly need much higher Step scores than US students just to get comparable consideration, if at all. So I probably wouldn't be as focused on getting into "a very good program" so much as matching. Only 40% of Caribbean students match, as compared to the over 94% of US students. Sure, the big 4 schools do better than the 40%, but no matter how you look at it, based on the historic match results showing almost all US students matching every year to one of their top couple of choices, the US schools seem to be taking the choice slice off the top and the offshore crowd is fighting it out for what's left. While neuro is not a particularly competitive field, the top schools aren't going to be taking too many offshore educated students, so I sure wouldn't hold your breath for a place like Columbia. There will be hundreds of US students with solid Step scores vying for those same seats, and a school would be hard pressed to overlook your lack of US pedigree, even if your Step was a few points higher. Maybe I'm wrong, but I kind of doubt it. So I would apply broadly and hope you match into your desired field at all, let alone worrying about top places. Good luck.

 

[GMDMD]

When I was preparing for the mcat 3 yrs. ago, I just remember the inference being made to a bunch of us pre-meders that if we score poorly on the mcat, chances are we won't do all that well on the step 1, should we ever get into a school .....I always felt that a was a crock of $hit because I literally had no inherent interest in learning about things such as "backside attacks" in o.chem or vectors in physics.....

Why would you think that's a crock of $hit? I think by far you are the exception rather than the rule. If you look at the "biggest mcat->step1 score" thread almost everyone there who rocked step1 but did poorly on the mcat did so because of laziness/personal/motivation issues.

I think few people try really hard and do poorly on the mcat, then try really hard and ace the boards. In that sense, I think the statement is pretty valid. Many smart people don't care for vectors or ochem but they're willing to put the time in because that's part of the price of admission for med school. People who apply themselves fully and do poorly on the mcat usually don't get into med school or struggle when they do.

 

[JeffLebowski]

Sorry - didn't mean to give off the impression I was a pre-med trying to make a decision based on different schools' board scores.....

Just trying (simply out of curiosity) to see how my step 1 score stacks up against different U.S. schools, since I go to SGU and scored rather lowly on the mcat (24) and managed to pull out a 239 on the step 1.... for those of us who didn't get into a U.S. school it was quite frustrating always being told how the mcat correlates with step 1 performance....

When I was preparing for the mcat 3 yrs. ago, I just remember the inference being made to a bunch of us pre-meders that if we score poorly on the mcat, chances are we won't do all that well on the step 1, should we ever get into a school .....I always felt that a was a crock of $hit because I literally had no inherent interest in learning about things such as "backside attacks" in o.chem or vectors in physics.....(in a way, I'm glad I bombed the mcat because living in Grenada for 2 yrs. was pretty damn cool, when I start retrospecting)......I suppose I had always wondered and still do wonder what role "inherent interest" in a particular subject or field plays in determining scores on particular exams, as opposed to some score we received on a previous standardized exam that has nothing to do with the exam it being correlated to.......I bet if they manipulated the stats in the "right way" they could find a correlation between the CTBS scores we received on our 2nd grade standardized exams, and Step1.

....sorry for the rant

On a side note, I'm also shooting for Neurology, and I want to get into a very good program, so I am also trying to find figures and stats pertaining to the avg. first yr. neuro resident's step 1 score in various programs (eg. I'm sure Neuro Residents at COlumbia have a higher step avg. than those at a remote program out in the midwest)

Yeah, I mostly agree with Law2Doc. Just because there's a statistical correlation doesn't mean it's unexpected to have people who do poorly on the MCAT and well on Step I. The fact that people were telling you about the correlation is probably an explanation to those countless people who said, "what does the MCAT have to do with being a good doctor?! I'm a great applicant except for my MCAT score! I know I'll be a good doctor, I know I can do well in medical school if you just give me a chance!" They say this over in pre-allo all the time.

 

[BillyRubinstein]

So I probably wouldn't be as focused on getting into "a very good program" so much as matching..... so I sure wouldn't hold your breath for a place like Columbia. .

I appreciate your feedback, but I AM focused on getting into a very good residency program (Yes, I will even apply to Columbia), as opposed to just matching. Having the attitude of "just matching," because I go to a school in a country known for its beaches and spices, would be pathetic on my part. I am aware of the "stigma" some carib students feel they will always carry into an interview or an application, but none exists for me. We (as in SGU students) use the same books as U.S students, rotate in the same U.S. hospitals, and take the same boards. I really have a tough time seeing why people have such a difficult time seeing past that a student attended a foreign school, regardless of their step scores and especially their U.S. citizenship. Oh well, just fuel for the fire...

 

[BillyRubinstein]

Why would you think that's a crock of $hit? I think by far you are the exception rather than the rule. If you look at the "biggest mcat->step1 score" thread almost everyone there who rocked step1 but did poorly on the mcat did so because of laziness/personal/motivation issues.

I think few people try really hard and do poorly on the mcat, then try really hard and ace the boards. In that sense, I think the statement is pretty valid. Many smart people don't care for vectors or ochem but they're willing to put the time in because that's part of the price of admission for med school. People who apply themselves fully and do poorly on the mcat usually don't get into med school or struggle when they do.

I actually could not DISAGREE more. I was not at all implying that I, or others who didn't rock the mcat and subsequently didn't get into a U.S. med school, were being lazy or had a lack of motivation. I busted my ass my last two years of college and studied insanely for the mcat, as many of my classmates did; we just didn't grasp the material well enough "to cut it." I was more than willing to "pay the price to get into a U.S. school." You state that "people who apply themselves fully but still do poorly on the mcat usually struggle in med school." You really are quite off about this topic, but that's ok; I go to school with 300+ people who wanted to get into a U.S. school as badly as any of you, there's just simply not enough spots for all the qualified students.

When I spoke of the fact that I didn't have much of an "inherent interest" in pre-med classes, this was not meant to imply that I didn't care to learn the material to get into a U.S. school. I tried my damn best to understand the material that I was uninterested in.

I was pointing out the mere fact that having an "inherent interest" in a subject tends to allow that material to "stick" better in one's mind.

 

[JeffLebowski]

I actually could not DISAGREE more. I was not at all implying that I, or others who didn't rock the mcat and subsequently didn't get into a U.S. med school, were being lazy or had a lack of motivation. I busted my ass my last two years of college and studied insanely for the mcat, as many of my classmates did; we just didn't grasp the material well enough "to cut it." I was more than willing to "pay the price to get into a U.S. school." You state that "people who apply themselves fully but still do poorly on the mcat usually struggle in med school." You really are quite off about this topic, but that's ok; I go to school with 300+ people who wanted to get into a U.S. school as badly as any of you, there's just simply not enough spots for all the qualified students.

When I spoke of the fact that I didn't have much of an "inherent interest" in pre-med classes, this was not meant to imply that I didn't care to learn the material to get into a U.S. school. I tried my damn best to understand the material that I was uninterested in.

I was pointing out the mere fact that having an "inherent interest" in a subject tends to allow that material to "stick" better in one's mind.

I'm not sure that you want to draw people into a caribbean vs. U.S. med school debate here...which is what this post and your last one kind of look like. I think some of your ideas will be met with a lot of opposition. I mean I don't go to a top tier school, and frankly I don't really expect to be treated the same as a Harvard med student with the same qualifications as I do. It's a difference. Does it mean I'm less qualified? No, not really. But one of us went to Harvard and one of us didn't. All things equal, I'd give the other guy the spot too. Those are the breaks, man. Know them, accept them, overcome them in any way you can (so you don't have to worry about the "all things equal" scenario).

 

[BrisketAttack]

Yeah, schools have tacitly agreed to keep this under wraps, as they are afraid that if such an objective standard of which school is "better" gets out it kind of ties their hands in terms of improving curriculum, emphasizing research, trying things like PBL, early clinical exposure and other things that they hope make people stronger physicians. The schools don't want to have to "teach to the boards", and be stuck in "black letter" classroom mode in lieu of these other things. So they don't release the scores, and students aren't supposed to rely on them. And because they aren't released, pretty much every school is at liberty to tell applicants that their scores are "above average" for US schools (despite the fact that half likely aren't). Of course one or two schools (usually lowly ranked ones who have nothing to lose by violating this arrangement) do put their higher than average scores on the web each year, proving that the scores certainly aren't particularly well correlated to the US News ranking of the schools.

Truth of the matter is that schools are going to cover pretty much the same information in one fashion or another, and everyone uses the same FirstAid, the same qbanks, the same board review subject books. So it is up to the student to score what he's going to score. No school is going to make the difference here, and to the extent schools have better scores, it's because they likely select for the right work ethic during admissions, not because they add more value than the rest of the pack. The schools will give you lectures and notesets and keep you on your toes with frequent detail oriented tests, but when all is said and done, you are going to learn medicine on your own.

you write like a lawyer

 

[GMDMD]

I actually could not DISAGREE more. I was not at all implying that I, or others who didn't rock the mcat and subsequently didn't get into a U.S. med school, were being lazy or had a lack of motivation. I busted my ass my last two years of college and studied insanely for the mcat, as many of my classmates did; we just didn't grasp the material well enough "to cut it." I was more than willing to "pay the price to get into a U.S. school." You state that "people who apply themselves fully but still do poorly on the mcat usually struggle in med school." You really are quite off about this topic, but that's ok; I go to school with 300+ people who wanted to get into a U.S. school as badly as any of you, there's just simply not enough spots for all the qualified students.

When I spoke of the fact that I didn't have much of an "inherent interest" in pre-med classes, this was not meant to imply that I didn't care to learn the material to get into a U.S. school. I tried my damn best to understand the material that I was uninterested in.

I was pointing out the mere fact that having an "inherent interest" in a subject tends to allow that material to "stick" better in one's mind.

I'm not sure I understand what exactly you disagreeing with. Do you think most people with sub-25 MCATs are hidden geniuses who simply weren't interested in the material?

I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but you know those guys who score 40+ on their mcats without hardly even trying? They didn't score well simply because they were more interested in the material. They really are smarter than you and me. That material was just easy for them. Does that mean they'll be better doctors than you or me? No. Does that mean they'll probably be worse? Heck no. If anything if they have an ounce of compassion it'll be that much easier for them to be better doctors because they think fast and have to study less.

In no way am I implying that the MCAT is the end-all be-all for gauging your potential. But it does correlate with intelligence. Those who underperform usually do so because they had personal problems, relationship problems, laziness/motivation problems, partying, work, lack of time, or simply a bad test day. I myself was one of those huge underperformers.

You are obviously a bright guy and I suppose the premed material never really clicked for you. But I don't think it's realistic to extrapolate much from any personal N=1 experience. Like I said before, you are more likely the exception rather than the rule.

Most smart people can overcome any inherent disinterest in material simply through hard work. Most of the guys who had big mcat->step1 jumps were smart dudes who had glaring reasons for underperforming on the mcat. Those who study like crazy and score sub 25's will tend to struggle much harder than their peers in med school. The average student (not you) at your school would not be close to the average student at a UCSF or WashU.

I think it's great that you've done so well and that you're aiming so high- you should definitely set your sights on programs such as Columbia. You're proving you deserve to be at program of that caliber.

But in general there's a reason why med schools are reluctant to accept students with sub 27 mcats, and residency programs are reluctant to accept carribean students.

 

[nbme123456]

But in general there's a reason why med schools are reluctant to accept students with sub 27 mcats, and residency programs are reluctant to accept carribean students.

I don't complete understand why residency programs would be willing to take a US med student instead of a caribbean med student with a similar score. Some one who scored maybe in the lower 20's on the MCATS and then ended up scoring the same or even better than the avg US student takes a tremendous amount of motivation. That type of motivation is a reflection their character. What I would consider laziness is someone who went to an ivy league med school and scored a 210 than a caribbean student who got a 21 on the MCATS then scored a 220 on their step. I would take character and motivation any day over someone who is just a genius.

 

[nowai]

There's something to be said for a track record of excellence. The student who gets 95% HS marks, 3.95 undergrad gpa, 40 MCATs, and 260s USMLE scores will probably continue onwards as an outstanding clerk, intern, resident, fellow, attending, etc.

 

[JeffLebowski]

I don't complete understand why residency programs would be willing to take a US med student instead of a caribbean med student with a similar score. Some one who scored maybe in the lower 20's on the MCATS and then ended up scoring the same or even better than the avg US student takes a tremendous amount of motivation. That type of motivation is a reflection their character. What I would consider laziness is someone who went to an ivy league med school and scored a 210 than a caribbean student who got a 21 on the MCATS then scored a 220 on their step. I would take character and motivation any day over someone who is just a genius.

Crap. This has turned into a U.S. MD vs. caribbean MD thread.

I think you're extrapolating too much based on hypothetical scenarios, which aren't really realistic. The bottom line is this: yes, there's a preference for U.S. applicants. Yes, it depends on the field, and it depends on the program. No, it's not purely based on prejudice, there are legitimate reasons to prefer domestically-trained applicants. No, the preference is not insurmountable. The amount of "surmounting" you'll have to do depends on a lot of factors including field, program, personality(which is where your "character and motivation" come in), luck, and the other aspects of your application. It is inaccurate to say that a 220 for a caribbean student is more impressive than a 220 from a U.S. med school, however, and it's a pretty arbitrary judgement call to say that a 220 from a caribbean school shows more "character and motivation" than a 210 from an ivy league school, especially when it's probably the case that programs have no shortage of equally numerically qualified applicants from U.S. schools.

 

[BillyRubinstein]

I'm not sure I understand what exactly you disagreeing with. Do you think most people with sub-25 MCATs are hidden geniuses who simply weren't interested in the material?

I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but you know those guys who score 40+ on their mcats without hardly even trying? They didn't score well simply because they were more interested in the material. They really are smarter than you and me. That material was just easy for them. Does that mean they'll be better doctors than you or me? No. Does that mean they'll probably be worse? Heck no. If anything if they have an ounce of compassion it'll be that much easier for them to be better doctors because they think fast and have to study less.

In no way am I implying that the MCAT is the end-all be-all for gauging your potential. But it does correlate with intelligence. Those who underperform usually do so because they had personal problems, relationship problems, laziness/motivation problems, partying, work, lack of time, or simply a bad test day. I myself was one of those huge underperformers.

You are obviously a bright guy and I suppose the premed material never really clicked for you. But I don't think it's realistic to extrapolate much from any personal N=1 experience. Like I said before, you are more likely the exception rather than the rule.

Most smart people can overcome any inherent disinterest in material simply through hard work. Most of the guys who had big mcat->step1 jumps were smart dudes who had glaring reasons for underperforming on the mcat. Those who study like crazy and score sub 25's will tend to struggle much harder than their peers in med school. The average student (not you) at your school would not be close to the average student at a UCSF or WashU.

I think it's great that you've done so well and that you're aiming so high- you should definitely set your sights on programs such as Columbia. You're proving you deserve to be at program of that caliber.

But in general there's a reason why med schools are reluctant to accept students with sub 27 mcats, and residency programs are reluctant to accept carribean students.

Look, this whole thread has gone wayyyy off topic. My initial motives were to basically see how I stacked up against my competition for top Neuro programs...that's it.....as some have stated, if you check my initial posting, it was NOT meant to become a Carib vs. U.S. thread - because for the majority of U.S. schools and the majority of Carib schools, there is no comparison....there is only a few of the many Carib schools that a large cut above the rest.

To contradict what I've just said and actually vere further off topic, I have to say though that I actually do agree with much of what you've said above I certainly agree that those with 40+ mcats are just smarter and have an easier time learning, and are not just simply more interested. I do feel that having a fascination for a topic allows it to be learned better, but this "inherent interest" thing I keep mentioning is certainly not the end all, as I may have originally implied.

I suppose I would like to think that the mcat is poor step 1 correlator, because it kept me out of an American school, but like you said, people who score above avg. probably are the exception, rather than rule.

Thanks for the comments to all - let's kill the stupid carib vs. u.s. debate, if that has begun boiling. It's a silly topic and is something that will go nowhere fast.

If anyone one wishes to rekindle my initial post, check the first thing I wrote...if not, there's better ways to use our time than typing about the mcats

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Did you read charting outcomes for the match? With a 239 you're doing pretty well cept for the FMG thing.

 

[ZonaRidicularis]

z

 

[diosa428]

For those of you who don't think it's "fair" that FMGs aren't held to the same standard as US grads, I hate to tell you this, but it doesn't really matter what you think. The fact is that an FMG has to have better scores/grades than a US grad to be considered on equal ground. It's not fair, but it's the truth. It doesn't mean you shouldn't apply to whatever programs you want, but there are programs out there who still don't take FMGs. That's just how it is.

As Pinkertinkle referenced, you should check out the Charting outcomes. If you look at Neurology, for example, you'll see that 29 "independant applicants" applied with a Step 1 of between 231-240 and 21 of them matched (72.4%). 47 US seniors applied with between a 231-240 and all of them matched. It doesn't say anything about what programs they matched at though.

Here's the link: http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2007.pdf

 

[Law2Doc]

For those of you who don't think it's "fair" that FMGs aren't held to the same standard as US grads, I hate to tell you this, but it doesn't really matter what you think. The fact is that an FMG has to have better scores/grades than a US grad to be considered on equal ground. It's not fair, but it's the truth. It doesn't mean you shouldn't apply to whatever programs you want, but there are programs out there who still don't take FMGs. That's just how it is.

Yep. US schools and the LCME have done a nice job of branding the Caribbean schools as last resort options, and program directors have a hard time justifying to their administration why they are looking at offshore applicants if there are US applicants to look at. The LCME has made a variety of public comments questioning the quality of offshore education, the fact that there is no accrediting body oversight, and has expressed dismay that US schools are not adequately filling US needs. This is reportedly part of the impetus of increasing US med school class sizes without subsequently following with increased residency slots -- it puts the squeeze on non-US applicants. The NRMP each year indicates that > 94% of US students match and that > 80% get one of their top three choices. Only 40% of non-US students match (although admittedly the top couple of offshore schools do better than the offshore average). You can basically extrapolate this to mean that almost all US students are getting slots off the top, and that offshore educated folks are fighting over what's left.

So folks coming from offshore basically have to have much, much better numbers to compete against US applicants, and even then there is absolutely a stigma to overcome. Because the PD is not going to want to give a spot to an offshore educated student if a kid down the street with a US education is clamoring for it. Most of the 40% of non-accredited Caribbean school educated folks who match thus end up in primary care in less desirable parts of the country. Others try to scramble for these slots after shooting much higher. You will see one or two offshore educated folks get into something like neuro every now and then, but usually not at a top place, unless there are some serious connections at work.

Is it fair? Depends on how you look at it. A lot of folks go offshore as a "second chance" at becoming a doctor in the US. They didn't manage to secure a US slot after reasonable efforts, so they toiled on some island and were lucky enough to actually get a shot at becoming a doctor. And 40% of those that survived the 4 years of offshore medical school actually will go on to be successful. That the doors still open tend to be less desirable specialties in less desirable locations is too bad, but most folks make the most of it and manage to become practicing physicians in the US, their dream. But giving someone who was a washout during med school applications equal status when seeking residency isn't the way it works, and per the LCME (which doesn't consider the lack of regulation conducive to producing good doctors) nor should it.

 

[GMDMD]

And 40% of those that survived the 4 years of offshore medical school actually will go on to be successful.

Just out of curiousity, what happens to the other 60%??? Do most of them match after an interim year? That seems like an insane amount of debt to go into without anything to show for it after 4 years.

To the OP: i apologize for derailing your thread. This internet arguing business has become a nice way for me to avoid studying for my shelf.

Getting back to your original point, I do wish USNews or whomever else would do the requisite research necessary in order to publish Step1 data and factor that into their rankings and ratings. It seems much more relevant to me to know the kind of stats schools are producing vs the stats kids are coming in with. Many schools do release their step1 score data. It seems if they factored that into the rankings a bit that would pressure most of the top50 to release their scores in order to maintain their status on the totem pole.

 

[BillyRubinstein]

But giving someone who was a washout during med school applications equal status when seeking residency isn't the way it works, and per the LCME (which doesn't consider the lack of regulation conducive to producing good doctors) nor should it.

I know there are some people out there who clump all Caribbean schools together - WRONG....try not to do it - it's quite annoying for a school like SGU to be anchored down by the random "pop-up" caribbean schools that seem to be founded on a daily basis.....

And for the person who posted the above, you should really watch what you say.....your spot one day may very well be snatched from one of us Caribbean students who you deem were "washouts" when it came to med school applications.....

I find it pathetic on your part, and others who wish to chime in on your behalf, to actually feel they are able "extrapolate" on things in which they are lacking knowledge......honestly, who are you to be all knowing and knowledgeable about the qualifications of students who are not accepted into American schools (and have the audacity to imply they are washouts).....you have no idea what my, or other offshore students', credentials were when we applied to U.S. schools.....yes, we obviously were not "MCAT qualified" as you may have been, but in the end, the MCAT is just another test like the SAT. We may "self-study" like you all do, but just in a different country.....we are trained by the same U.S. docs in the same U.S. hospitals.....you all really need to get over yourselves

Just do yourselves a favor and save some energy - if you wish to respond to my initial post as few actually have (thank you), please continue.....but don't turn this seemingly benign thread into "I'm a U.S. student, you're a Caribbean student, you get our scraps." Don't be pathetic, you're gonna be doctors.

 

[Orthodoc40]

I don't complete understand why residency programs would be willing to take a US med student instead of a caribbean med student with a similar score.

I don't completely understand it, either, BUT, my advice would be to do a thorough research about any program you want to apply for. Even call, if you need to, and ask flat out if they consider FMG applicants, or under what circumstances would they do so.

Because if they just don't - whatever their reasons are - you'll be wasting your time, money & effort. This is advice I got from a program director at a major location, when I was considering applying to SGU.

 

[Orthodoc40]

Oh yea, if you were talking about Columbia University in New York... according to the data it says that 0 US IMG's matched into a PGY1 neurology program in the entire state of New York and that 4 IMG's matched. However, the data doesn't say what hospital it was at specifically. On a good note, it says 9 US IMG's and 11 IMG's matched into a neurology PGY2 program... again.. it doesn't specify which program exactly so you can't tell if it was Columbia or not.

It also doesn't specify how many applied to what programs and whether they came anywhere near their first choices or not, does it? I mean, if 1 US IMG tried to match into a PGY1 program - it sounds far less daunting than if you say 50 tried.

Also, I'm not certain but I believe matching into neuro is a PGY2 thing mostly, anyway...?

 

[ZonaRidicularis]

z

 

[Law2Doc]

I know there are some people out there who clump all Caribbean schools together - WRONG....try not to do it - it's quite annoying for a school like SGU to be anchored down by the random "pop-up" caribbean schools that seem to be founded on a daily basis.....

I do it (lump, not clump), because the AAMC and LCME do it in their press releases, and in all probability many program directors do too. Check out press releases by an AAMC president Jordan Cohen on the net and you will find an awful lot of published "concerns" about the quality control of offshore schools. He doesn't really parse them out as good schools and bad ones, just unaccredited and unregulated.

In terms of the rest of your post, the Caribbean med schools (all of them, including yours) were founded as a cottage industry to accept US students who were unable to secure US med school admissions. As such, they are "second chance" schools for US students. Doesn't really matter if the problem was GPA or MCAT or whatever, they only are going offshore because they didn't get in here. If you prefer another term to "washout" that's fine -- I didn't mean anything by it, it just seemed to sum up the notion of folks who applied but weren't successful in the process. So if that term offended, I apologize.

Good luck.

 

[Law2Doc]

Also, I'm not certain but I believe matching into neuro is a PGY2 thing mostly, anyway...?

You apply during the match for neuro as an "advanced" program in most cases, and have to also match into a prelim year (usually medicine) or transitional program for the PGY1 year on top of that. But yeah, you apply for neuro in the match, but won't start it until your second year of residency.

 

[flumazenil]

for all you step 1 rookies out there with your 260+. I think you guys should really appreciate one another, that is- caribbean MD and US MD. Afterall after we go through these annoying licensing exams and survive residency- we are practicing MD's. Harvard, yale, SGU, Ross, state U...we are all MD's. I really think we should look at it that way, because instead of the LCME branding the offshore schools as last resort and whatnot, the midlevels are creeping up slowly on us. Doctor of Nurse Practitioner? Are you serious? Don't even get me started. The point is lets join forces and actually keep the OTHER degrees that do not nearly have the same testing and training and post medical school training from taking our primary care turfs.

 

[Law2Doc]

for all you step 1 rookies out there with your 260+. I think you guys should really appreciate one another, that is- caribbean MD and US MD. Afterall after we go through these annoying licensing exams and survive residency- we are practicing MD's. Harvard, yale, SGU, Ross, state U...we are all MD's. I really think we should look at it that way, because instead of the LCME branding the offshore schools as last resort and whatnot, the midlevels are creeping up slowly on us. Doctor of Nurse Practitioner? Are you serious? Don't even get me started. The point is lets join forces and actually keep the OTHER degrees that do not nearly have the same testing and training and post medical school training from taking our primary care turfs.

For whatever reason, (probably denial) medicine has turned a blind eye toward this form of encroachment on the field. The public loves them because they still wear white coats but are easier to get appointments with and don't bill nearly as much. Insurance companies love them because the are cheap. So it's becoming a real thorn.

But I don't think joining forces with foreign trained docs is the solution. US MDs and DOs really should figure out how to supply all of the country's physician needs and box everyone else out. Other professions have done this. You won't see foreign trained lawyers or paralegals "practicing law" in the US. Not sure why US doctors are so different or short sighted.

 

[ZonaRidicularis]

z

 

[JeffLebowski]

Step outside you comfy little bubble for a second and realize that there are soooooooooooo many doctors and med students all over the world (by world I don't mean Mexico and Canada, go look at a map) and some of these people have an amazing amount of intelligence and innovation. These "foreign trained" doctors think globally while you can't even wrap your head around the 2 block neighborhood you live in. And guess what? The beautiful country which is the United States of America want to grab them all up and not only give them a chance to use their talent but also to give them the opportunity to teach and do research to make the field of medicine even better than it is today. It's gonna be a sucky day for you when you get owned by an IMG in training.. worst nightmare of your life probably. I'm well aware of the incredibly ******ed doctors/med students out there, it's amazing that you've managed to meet every single one of them. Go ahead and try to get your head out of your WASP rear end and stop trying to flex your knowledge muscles with your ignoranant thinking which you're obvously trying to pawn off as some sort of insight.

Out.

Wow, this is an extremely abrasive post and Law2Doc definitely didn't deserve the attacks.

He wasn't saying foreign trained doctors are inferior, he was saying there shouldn't be a need to import doctors, we should be training them domestically instead of draining off the doctors being trained by foreign countries who need them. The exception to this of course is the caribbean schools, which he (quite accurately) characterized as being alternate, back-door feeders for people to practice medicine in the U.S. that likely couldn't have without such an option. Again - I don't think he's said or implied that the caliber of the doctors produced from caribbean schools is subpar, rather that the system we have that (for whatever reason) has this strange loophole seems strange.

 

[BillyRubinstein]

First of all, it's ******ed to compare law to medicine. People have been getting sick since the beginning of time and have needed the help of doctors/medicine men/wizards whatever... it's a hell of a lot more universal than law. I'm guessing the only lawyer one would need in the olden days came in the form of a large blunt object to seek damages for mental/emotional distress... there's your law for you.

Step outside you comfy little bubble for a second and realize that there are soooooooooooo many doctors and med students all over the world (by world I don't mean Mexico and Canada, go look at a map) and some of these people have an amazing amount of intelligence and innovation. These "foreign trained" doctors think globally while you can't even wrap your head around the 2 block neighborhood you live in. And guess what? The beautiful country which is the United States of America want to grab them all up and not only give them a chance to use their talent but also to give them the opportunity to teach and do research to make the field of medicine even better than it is today. It's gonna be a sucky day for you when you get owned by an IMG in training.. worst nightmare of your life probably. I'm well aware of the incredibly ******ed doctors/med students out there, it's amazing that you've managed to meet every single one of them. Go ahead and try to get your head out of your WASP rear end and stop trying to flex your knowledge muscles with your ignoranant thinking which you're obvously trying to pawn off as some sort of insight.

Out.

Took the words right out my mouth

 

[diosa428]

First of all, it's ******ed to compare law to medicine. People have been getting sick since the beginning of time and have needed the help of doctors/medicine men/wizards whatever... it's a hell of a lot more universal than law. I'm guessing the only lawyer one would need in the olden days came in the form of a large blunt object to seek damages for mental/emotional distress... there's your law for you.

Step outside you comfy little bubble for a second and realize that there are soooooooooooo many doctors and med students all over the world (by world I don't mean Mexico and Canada, go look at a map) and some of these people have an amazing amount of intelligence and innovation. These "foreign trained" doctors think globally while you can't even wrap your head around the 2 block neighborhood you live in. And guess what? The beautiful country which is the United States of America want to grab them all up and not only give them a chance to use their talent but also to give them the opportunity to teach and do research to make the field of medicine even better than it is today. It's gonna be a sucky day for you when you get owned by an IMG in training.. worst nightmare of your life probably. I'm well aware of the incredibly ******ed doctors/med students out there, it's amazing that you've managed to meet every single one of them. Go ahead and try to get your head out of your WASP rear end and stop trying to flex your knowledge muscles with your ignoranant thinking which you're obvously trying to pawn off as some sort of insight.

Out.

Sorry, I missed your point because I was too busy wondering whether or not you are still in high school. Your immaturity is pretty astounding. Sorry, I'm not usually the PC police, but I really don't think that the word "******ed" belongs in an educated discussion among people in the medical field. Additionally, telling someone that they're going to be "owned" by an IMG is not even a logical argument. Why don't we just resort to "you're rubber, I'm glue, whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks on to you".

Furthermore, yes there are sooooo many medical students and doctors all over the world. But there are also soooooo many people around the world that need doctors. If you're going to train to be a doctor in another country, you are taking up a spot at an institution in that country, and essentially practicing on patients in that country. Is it really appropriate to then turn around and come to the US, without giving anything back to that country? Don't those people need medical care too? What about all the other countries in the world that don't even have the resources to train doctors? Why doesn't anyone go there? Yeah, there are plenty of opportunities in the US that don't exist in other countries but not everyone that comes here does so so that they can do research and teach. Many will just go into private practice.

And yes, there are areas of the country that are underserved and less desirable residencies that need to be filled. But with the increasing number of medical schools and increasing class sizes, we will hopefully end up with the ability to supply enough students to fill our own residency classes. And there will be room in our medical schools for more qualified applicants who would have otherwise ended up in at a school outside of the US.

 

[BillyRubinstein]

For whatever reason, (probably denial) medicine has turned a blind eye toward this form of encroachment on the field. The public loves them because they still wear white coats but are easier to get appointments with and don't bill nearly as much. Insurance companies love them because the are cheap. So it's becoming a real thorn.

But I don't think joining forces with foreign trained docs is the solution. US MDs and DOs really should figure out how to supply all of the country's physician needs and box everyone else out. Other professions have done this. You won't see foreign trained lawyers or paralegals "practicing law" in the US. Not sure why US doctors are so different or short sighted.

Just exactly what is your definition of FOREIGN-TRAINED and what is your hang up about doctors that are trained in other countries? There is an exam out there - its called the UNITED STATES (yes UNITED STATES OF AMERICAN THAT IS) medical licensing exam....maybe I should spell this out for you a bit more......ok....pay attention now - this exam tests the knowledge of medical students who are wishing to become licensed to practice medicine in......ok...now you fill in the blank - Yes...you are correct - the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.......now please feel free to answer, but what the f**k is the purpose of having an exam that holds everyone to the same standards, if people are going to be blinded by what school we attended, which ultimately boils down to how we did on our mcat (an exam which assesses absolutely no medical knowledge)......what exacly is the purpose of the USMLE then???

Here is where you should really take a few notes - us FOREIGN-TRAINED Caribbean students, are actually trained in the same country as your are! You must be thinkinking, "OMG, this can't be possible, they are supposed to trained in a foreign country!" Well here's a question for you - from your experience as a medical student, how much TRAINING (no, not reading textbooks) did you receive in your first two years of basic science study, as opposed to what you have or will be receiving as a clinical student during your last two years. At SGU and most other Carib programs, students complete only their first 2 years in the caribbean (at Ross, it's even less). Now do the math - this leaves the last two years of school to be completed in the U.S.A, YOUR COUNTRY. Wait, maybe this makes us American-Trained students......hmmm.....doesn't really sound like hour baseless arguement of foreign-trained doctors is really all too accurate. Last time I checked, my school and many of the other top Caribbean programs pattern their academic programs after U.S. medical schools and actually follow the same set of guidelines set forth by the LCME, though we are not technically accredited by them. But honestly, in the end, what should matter is the kind of doctors these schools are producing, not what kind students they accept. SGU produces doctors with brains, not egos.....you might wanna have that checked out.

 

[BillyRubinstein]

Sorry, I missed your point because I was too busy wondering whether or not you are still in high school. Your immaturity is pretty astounding. Sorry, I'm not usually the PC police, but I really don't think that the word "******ed" belongs in an educated discussion among people in the medical field. Additionally, telling someone that they're going to be "owned" by an IMG is not even a logical argument. Why don't we just resort to "you're rubber, I'm glue, whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks on to you".

Furthermore, yes there are sooooo many medical students and doctors all over the world. But there are also soooooo many people around the world that need doctors. If you're going to train to be a doctor in another country, you are taking up a spot at an institution in that country, and essentially practicing on patients in that country. Is it really appropriate to then turn around and come to the US, without giving anything back to that country? Don't those people need medical care too? What about all the other countries in the world that don't even have the resources to train doctors? Why doesn't anyone go there? Yeah, there are plenty of opportunities in the US that don't exist in other countries but not everyone that comes here does so so that they can do research and teach. Many will just go into private practice.

And yes, there are areas of the country that are underserved and less desirable residencies that need to be filled. But with the increasing number of medical schools and increasing class sizes, we will hopefully end up with the ability to supply enough students to fill our own residency classes. And there will be room in our medical schools for more qualified applicants who would have otherwise ended up in at a school outside of the US.

I really don't know how else this can spelled out to you people - WE (as in Carib students) are mostly American-born students who train in the United States of America, side by side with people like yourself. In my upcoming rotations, I will be training (YES, you heard correct, TRAINING) with students from my school and students from two other American medical schools. Yes, there is some basic introduction to clinical training in Grenada, and even real patient contact, but you know as well as I do that the majority of the first two years boils down to self-studying and clinical case group work. So please, get off this kick making it sound like we are nor trained in the U.S., when we really are

 

[owenmichael]

delete

 

[blz]

I don't even a think a 239 would suffice for US grads at top neurology programs. I think you'll match though.

 

[diosa428]

I really don't know how else this can spelled out to you people - WE (as in Carib students) are mostly American-born students who train in the United States of America, side by side with people like yourself. In my upcoming rotations, I will be training (YES, you heard correct, TRAINING) with students from my school and students from two other American medical schools. Yes, there is some basic introduction to clinical training in Grenada, and even real patient contact, but you know as well as I do that the majority of the first two years boils down to self-studying and clinical case group work. So please, get off this kick making it sound like we are nor trained in the U.S., when we really are

Yes, and WE (as in, American medical school students) understand that. I don't quite get what part of my post you were responding to. If you were to follow the discussion, you would note that we are all discussing ALL FOREIGN MEDICAL SCHOOL GRADS, not just those from the Carib. I was not looking for, nor do I need, an explanation of your medical school training.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Just exactly what is your definition of FOREIGN-TRAINED and what is your hang up about doctors that are trained in other countries? There is an exam out there - its called the UNITED STATES (yes UNITED STATES OF AMERICAN THAT IS) medical licensing exam....maybe I should spell this out for you a bit more......ok....pay attention now - this exam tests the knowledge of medical students who are wishing to become licensed to practice medicine in......ok...now you fill in the blank - Yes...you are correct - the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.......now please feel free to answer, but what the f**k is the purpose of having an exam that holds everyone to the same standards, if people are going to be blinded by what school we attended, which ultimately boils down to how we did on our mcat (an exam which assesses absolutely no medical knowledge)......what exacly is the purpose of the USMLE then???

Here is where you should really take a few notes - us FOREIGN-TRAINED Caribbean students, are actually trained in the same country as your are! You must be thinkinking, "OMG, this can't be possible, they are supposed to trained in a foreign country!" Well here's a question for you - from your experience as a medical student, how much TRAINING (no, not reading textbooks) did you receive in your first two years of basic science study, as opposed to what you have or will be receiving as a clinical student during your last two years. At SGU and most other Carib programs, students complete only their first 2 years in the caribbean (at Ross, it's even less). Now do the math - this leaves the last two years of school to be completed in the U.S.A, YOUR COUNTRY. Wait, maybe this makes us American-Trained students......hmmm.....doesn't really sound like hour baseless arguement of foreign-trained doctors is really all too accurate. Last time I checked, my school and many of the other top Caribbean programs pattern their academic programs after U.S. medical schools and actually follow the same set of guidelines set forth by the LCME, though we are not technically accredited by them. But honestly, in the end, what should matter is the kind of doctors these schools are producing, not what kind students they accept. SGU produces doctors with brains, not egos.....you might wanna have that checked out.

Whoa is that a chip on your shoulder?

 

[BillyRubinstein]

ANyone out there aware of a site that posts the different step 1 averages at different schools? or even avg. step 1 scores for first year docs in various residency programs?

This was my initial post......I find it rather comical how many of you (not all) are so quick to spit out your opinions as to what program(s) I have the potential to make it into or even if I'll match at all. Take the time to read what this thread was supposed to be about - I simply asked if anyone had a website that listed info regarding various residency programs and what their avg. step 1 score representation was. I never asked for your pinhead opinions....this was not a "what are my chances" post. Before you carry out your urge to spue out your daily load of crap at me (I know its hard to hold it in since you all scored a 260+), just understand that your opinions about what I, or other Caribbean graduates can achieve, is the equivalent to a drunken confabulation of words to me. I'm sorry, but your opinions don't count.