Steroids for the Office: single dose or multidose vials?

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OffPiste

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Anybody using multidose vials for depomedrol/kenalog/decadron for procedures in the office?
Much cheaper it seems, but concerns re sterility and added preservatives, especially with the recent fungal meningitis outbreak?

Better to stick with single dose vials and eat the increased cost?

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Anybody using multidose vials for depomedrol/kenalog/decadron for procedures in the office?
Much cheaper it seems, but concerns re sterility and added preservatives, especially with the recent fungal meningitis outbreak?

Better to stick with single dose vials and eat the increased cost?

?? The outbreak was caused by contaminated PF SDV. Those microorangisms hopefully won't survive in preservative.
 
Using single dose PF or multidose with preservative?
 
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All single dose triamcinolone and depomedrol contain preservatives. In the case of depomedrol it is myristyl gamma picolinium chloride, a germacide used since the 1930s, and has a quaternary structure. The only single dose PF available is dexamethasone.
 
So, are you guys using multidose vials for the cost benefit?
 
All single dose triamcinolone and depomedrol contain preservatives. In the case of depomedrol it is myristyl gamma picolinium chloride, a germacide used since the 1930s, and has a quaternary structure. The only single dose PF available is dexamethasone.

Even the formulations for SDV created by the compound pharmacies have preservative? It was widely reported that the SDV were PF MPA as in this article from the CDC. Is the CDC mistaken or is the preservative such as small amount that it's not considered to have preservative (which would negate the point of having preservative to begin with)?

http://www.cdc.gov/hai/outbreaks/clinicians/faq_meningitis_outbreak.html
 
What is causing these infections?
The infections are caused by a fungus. At this point, the original source of the outbreak has not been determined; however, all infected patients identified thus far have received preservative-free (PF) methylprednisolone acetate (80mg/ml) from among the three lots voluntarily recalled by the New England Compounding Center in Framingham, Massachusetts, on September 26, 2012.
 
Preservative free drugs, other than dex, are not commercially available. Compounding pharmacies are permitted to make up a small number of vials for a specific prescription for a specific patient and these may be preservative free, although it is foolish to order these medications since there have been well documented multiple outbreaks of meningitis from compounding pharmacy epidural steroid preservative free preparations in the past. NECC was making batches of hundreds and thousands of vials without linking them to a specific patient. These were preservative free, but were only available commercially due to illegal manufacturing activity of NECC. They were permitted to compound, not to manufacture. Their manufactured product was not FDA approved since it lacked the MGPC or alcohols or other preservative agents approved by the FDA.
All of that is but a technicality though: the physicians that disabled the safety measures in the commercial product by order preservative free, the pharmacy board conflicts of interest and failure to monitor/act, and the shoddy sterile conditions in the pharmacy where mold and bacteria were growing on surfaces in the pharmacy and failure to live up to manufacturing sterility standards were the reasons the infections occurred. It required all three events to produce the infections in patients.
 
What about Omnipaque? Multidose doesn't even exist, they're all single dose and you're supposed to throw out a $50 bottle with each use...............
 
I've been treating omnipaque 240 as a MDV for years. I suspect I'm not alone.

Uh yeah,

Screw the CDC. Until they convince drug companies to make cheap 5ml SDV of contrast, I'll be using my contrast bottle all day long, with alcohol wipes in between and throwing it out at the end of the day.
 
Uh yeah,

Screw the CDC. Until they convince drug companies to make cheap 5ml SDV of contrast, I'll be using my contrast bottle all day long, with alcohol wipes in between and throwing it out at the end of the day.

:thumbup:
 
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Uh yeah,

Screw the CDC. Until they convince drug companies to make cheap 5ml SDV of contrast, I'll be using my contrast bottle all day long, with alcohol wipes in between and throwing it out at the end of the day.

Agree!!!!!
 
The CDC treats every series of infections as though it were an ebola virus outbreak: it must be eradicated at all costs. They have engaged in pseudoscientific analysis of outbreaks that could have had several sources, namely the reuse of needles or syringes in single dose vials. Yes thats right, the CDC has determined that it is the single dose vial that is responsible for series of outbreaks when in over 95% of their cataloged cases the culprit was reuse of needles and syringes. Of course the same thing happens even with multidose vials but lets not let a little truth get in the way of the CDC investigations. This quantum leap in logic occurs because that is the only modus operandi the CDC knows: scorched earth. Eradicate all known sources of infection and adopt very scientifically shaky dogma in order to save people from infection, when in fact a bit of common sense would go a long way in eradicating infection. Nevermind that the federal government pays 2-3 times as much for the same identical injection given in a hospital. Nevermind that contrast, if used as single dose, would make injections financially impossible in an outpatient clinic setting. The CDC does not operate on pragmatism, only on extremism. Every infection is an ebola virus to the CDC.
 
The CDC treats every series of infections as though it were an ebola virus outbreak: it must be eradicated at all costs. They have engaged in pseudoscientific analysis of outbreaks that could have had several sources, namely the reuse of needles or syringes in single dose vials. Yes thats right, the CDC has determined that it is the single dose vial that is responsible for series of outbreaks when in over 95% of their cataloged cases the culprit was reuse of needles and syringes. Of course the same thing happens even with multidose vials but lets not let a little truth get in the way of the CDC investigations. This quantum leap in logic occurs because that is the only modus operandi the CDC knows: scorched earth. Eradicate all known sources of infection and adopt very scientifically shaky dogma in order to save people from infection, when in fact a bit of common sense would go a long way in eradicating infection. Nevermind that the federal government pays 2-3 times as much for the same identical injection given in a hospital. Nevermind that contrast, if used as single dose, would make injections financially impossible in an outpatient clinic setting. The CDC does not operate on pragmatism, only on extremism. Every infection is an ebola virus to the CDC.

Algosdoc, that is excellent information. May I ask where you got that and if there is a source I can quote if presenting that logic to my hospital. It would possibly be very useful information
 
Algosdoc, that is excellent information. May I ask where you got that and if there is a source I can quote if presenting that logic to my hospital. It would possibly be very useful information

1. i would never trust a hospital to disagree with a federal government agency recommendation UNLESS you have it in writing. likely scenario - you tell the hospital this, they say "great idea, we agree with you", you have an accident or a completely unforeseen situation, and they say "we had NO idea he was doing this, its so obviously against CDC recommendations - you're fired!"

2. I know its easy to crucify the CDC, and it does affect our pocketbooks. they are looking at the situation not only for pain, but also for all uses of SDV, and some of the worst infections are from the GI world, where people are accessing propofol wrong. the CDC is looking at the situation from a public health standpoint, re sociology/society, rather than an individual standpoint. they can tell people "dont reuse needles", but people still are. they can tell people "dont reuse syringes", but people still are.

so they do the next best thing to that - limit single use vials to 1 needle 1 syringe - i.e. dont reuse.

suppose you worked in a govn't agency, and at least 130,000 people got sick from something completely avoidable. what would you recommend? keep doing what you're doing, those 130,000, well they are #$%^ out of luck, and too bad? or "what can we do to avoid this from happening again? telling people not to reuse hasnt worked..."

Hepatitis B and C outbreaks 1998-2008- possibly 60,000 people exposed due to poor sterile technique and basic fundamentals of patient care
 
2. I know its easy to crucify the CDC, and it does affect our pocketbooks. they are looking at the situation not only for pain, but also for all uses of SDV, and some of the worst infections are from the GI world, where people are accessing propofol wrong. the CDC is looking at the situation from a public health standpoint, re sociology/society, rather than an individual standpoint. .

The problem is that the CDC is making blanket statements without any research/scientific data in the world of pain demonstrating that MDV is the smoking gun for pain infections which are incredibly rare (unless the medication itself isn't sterile, as with NECC).

If they don't take the time to actually study the issue instead of just issuing a lazy blanket statement then I will ignore them. Just as I would ignore a 40mph speed limit on a deserted highway in the sticks, that should be higher if someone in government took the time to think about and change.

Government isn't always right and I plan to willfully disobey unless they can demonstrate why. Free thinking is part of being an American.

von Steuben, one of the foreign officers who trained the early American militia with George Washington commented how the American settlers were
"so different from all the soldiers he had trained all over europe, because they demanded to know the reasoning behind why doing things in a certain way was correct"

They wouldn't just blindly follow orders from those in authority. Neither will I.
 
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The problem is that the CDC is making blanket statements without any research/scientific data in the world of pain demonstrating that MDV is the smoking gun for pain infections which are incredibly rare (unless the medication itself isn't sterile, as with NECC).

If they don't take the time to actually study the issue instead of just issuing a lazy blanket statement then I will ignore them. Just as I would ignore a 40mph speed limit on a deserted highway in the sticks, that should be higher if someone in government took the time to think about and change.

Government isn't always right and I plan to willfully disobey unless they can demonstrate why. Free thinking is part of being an American.

von Steuben, one of the foreign officers who trained the early American militia with George Washington commented how the American settlers were
"so different from all the soldiers he had trained all over europe, because they demanded to know the reasoning behind why doing things in a certain way was correct"

They wouldn't just blindly follow orders from those in authority. Neither will I.

Do you also have wooden teeth and carry a musket?
 
We did our own analysis of the CDC data they used to draw their incorrect conclusions.

"The CDC developed “guidelines” for the use of single dose contrast vials that fail to take into account costs of their recommendations, practicality of their recommendations, whether their recommendations would curtail or eliminate beneficial treatments, or whether their recommendations might actually cause more harm. Therefore the key questions the CDC uses in their development of guidelines in this case focused only on risks and not of benefits of a treatment, a position that is contrary to nearly all other medical guideline development. The CDC openly admits this to be the case:

”Concerns have been raised about whether these guidelines and related policies contribute to drug shortages and increased medical costs to healthcare providers. CDC recognizes the problem of drug shortages; however, such shortages are a result of manufacturing, shipping, and other issues unrelated to the above guidelines. CDC ’s priority is protecting patients from harm.” From the CDC document “Protect Patients Against Preventable Harm from Improper Use of Single-Dose/Single-Use Vials http://www.cdc.gov/injectionsafety/cdcposition-singleusevial.html

The “recommendations” based on the “guidelines” are therefore flawed, and there was no benefit/risk cost analysis performed since the CDC did not analyze the large numbers of injections being performed everyday with multiple uses of “single dose” vials. Nor did the CDC recognize that many patients would simply not be able to receive injections in an outpatient office setting given the very high cost of single dose vials that would make such injections financially unviable, nor did they factor in the economic cost of lost patient-years of work and the increase in pain and suffering that would result in the absence of such injections.

Furthermore, the CDC was dealing with a relatively small number of infections (compared with the millions of injections performed yearly) due to a multitude of errors in practice that the CDC ultimately attributed solely to the reuse of single dose vials rather than to other known factors of contamination. For instance, in the CDC investigations, the reuse of syringes, reuse of needles, improper skin decontamination, and inadequate hand hygiene were factors in the 16 investigations by the CDC. The number exposed to infection in these 16 studies cited (http://www.cdc.gov/HAI/settings/outpatient/outbreaks-patient-notifications.html) is approximately 75,000. Of these, 96% were associated with the reuse of syringes (“double dipping”), a known common source of infection. Rather than focus on the processes that led to the infection exposures, the CDC used the single dose vial as a scapegoat for all infection exposures. Reuse of syringes or needles in any setting, whether single use vials, multidose vials, or accessing IV sites has a known increased risk for infection. The CDC did not comment on the use of good practices that would eliminate such contamination when reusing single dose vials such as adequate decontamination of the stopper when re-accessing the vials, use of an unused needle and syringe for every access of these vials, avoidance of adding any diluent to the vials, etc. The Pain Society simply reflects in its policy that there are logical and proven methodologies towards harm reduction by focusing on the processes of infection control rather than eliminating the common practice of reuse of single dose vials costing up to $50 each. We do not dispute that the single use of single dose vials is the optimal method to eliminate iatrogenic contamination, however by using the infection control processes outlined by the Pain Society that have been used for decades by physicians that have not had outbreaks of clusters of infections, an alternative is presented to the recommendations of the CDC that are practical and permit the continued access of care that would be eliminated if CDC recommendations were followed. However, if single dose vial cost of contrast material drops significantly, then the use of single dose vials could be employed.

Finally, CDC recommendations are just that: recommendations. The CDC has no regulatory or enforcement function. From the CDC website: “Is CDC a regulatory agency? CDC is not a regulatory or enforcement agency and does not make policy decisions. CDC conducts science-based investigations, research, and public health surveillance (tracking) both nationally and internationally when there is an outbreak (large number of cases) of disease”.http://www.cdc.gov/cdc-info/inquiries.html

None of this serves to diminish the value of the work of the CDC, nor our appreciation of the difficulties of epidemiological investigation, but instead demonstrates the CDC examines risk in the absence of benefit. The CDC is focused solely on harm elimination rather than balancing the continued availability of important pain relieving therapies or the negative effect of CDC recommendations might have such as forcing physicians to engage in potentially risky practices of interventional pain procedures without the use of contrast.
 
You hit the nail and missed the board., euphemistiically speaking

You are absolutely right about one thing - they are a public policy organization. From their standpoint, one life lost due to human error is too much.

The old adage holds - of you want your mother/grandma/uncle to be "needlessly" exposed to someone knowingly or otherwise violating sterile technique?

Would you want yourself to be exposed to someone who is wiping their arse before sticking a needle in your spine, to get crude about it?

The problem comes that warnings have been made with dubious results, as there continue to be concerns with sterile technique, even with multiple teachings and warnings. Do u fully expect them to do more of the same, and just wait for the next local outbreak to occur?

What if the FDA did nothing after NECC? What would we all think of them as an organization? Might they become as popular as Congress?

In this case, what cost can be associated with the loss of human life? Is it the cost of SDV?
 
You hit the nail and missed the board., euphemistiically speaking

You are absolutely right about one thing - they are a public policy organization. From their standpoint, one life lost due to human error is too much.

The old adage holds - of you want your mother/grandma/uncle to be "needlessly" exposed to someone knowingly or otherwise violating sterile technique?

Would you want yourself to be exposed to someone who is wiping their arse before sticking a needle in your spine, to get crude about it?

The problem comes that warnings have been made with dubious results, as there continue to be concerns with sterile technique, even with multiple teachings and warnings. Do u fully expect them to do more of the same, and just wait for the next local outbreak to occur?

What if the FDA did nothing after NECC? What would we all think of them as an organization? Might they become as popular as Congress?

In this case, what cost can be associated with the loss of human life? Is it the cost of SDV?

I would let any practitioner inject myself or my family members as long as he wasn't double dipping i.e reusing syringes and needles.
 
Y
The old adage holds - of you want your mother/grandma/uncle to be "needlessly" exposed to someone knowingly or otherwise violating sterile technique?

Would you want yourself to be exposed to someone who is wiping their arse before sticking a needle in your spine, to get crude about it?

Your words are markedly dishonest and distort what is being discussed. We are talking about using new, sterile needles and syringes to obtain contrast from a vial, ensuring that no used needle/syringe contacts that vial. You equate this to "needless" carelessness akin to using a needle as a piece of Charmin. Shut up.
 
Your words are markedly dishonest and distort what is being discussed. We are talking about using new, sterile needles and syringes to obtain contrast from a vial, ensuring that no used needle/syringe contacts that vial. You equate this to "needless" carelessness akin to using a needle as a piece of Charmin. Shut up.

thats what you are talking about.

thats apparently not what the CDC is seeing in practice. they are seeing SDV being used on multiple patients and reaccessed by previously used needles and syringes.

you must have read their initial May 2012 advisory - summarized key points:

"This practice protects patients from life-threatening infections that occur when medications get contaminated from unsafe use. "

"CDC 's priority is protecting patients from harm. CDC routinely investigates and is apprised of infectious disease outbreaks involving single-dose/single-use vials being used for multiple patients."

"Ongoing outbreaks provide ample evidence that inappropriate use of single-dose/single-use vials causes patient harm."

"In times of critical need, contents from unopened single-dose/single-use vials can be repackaged for multiple patients."

"Basic Safe Injection Practice Messages:
1. a.... However, single-dose/single-use vials typically lack antimicrobial preservative and can become contaminated and serve as a source of infection when they are used inappropriately.
2. Unsafe injection practices include, but are not limited to, reuse of syringes for multiple patients or to access shared medications, administration of medication from a single-dose/single-use vial to multiple patients, and failure to use aseptic technique when preparing and administering injections.

4.When providers deviate from CDC's safe practice guidelines, they are imposing risks on their patients. Since the CDC Guidelines were published in 2007, CDC is aware of at least 19 outbreaks associated with single-dose/single-use medications:

b. All of these outbreaks involved outpatient settings, with the majority occurring in pain remediation clinics (n=8)."

"CDC continues to see outbreaks in healthcare settings where providers thought they were preparing and administering injections safely."

In the Outbreaks, 3 of the listed outbreaks were in pain clinics. 2 of them - "syringe reuse" from double dipping (using new syringes on patients, but reaccessing the bottle after it was used on patient". in the 3rd, SDV reuse and poor hand hygiene (who knows, maybe my made up scenario came true).
 
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The tacit position of the CDC is that doctors are too recalcitrant and greedy that they cannot use sterile technque with multiple access of a vial, therefore should not reuse vials. Of course this is BS but the ebola mentality of the CDC is that there is no middle ground, no logical solution except for complete eradication of all potential factors, ignoring the solution of simply not reusing needles or syringes, not injecting any liquid into the vials, and using sterile technique on alcohol of the top of the vial. Their solution is to eliminate all interventional pain injections using contrast in the outpatient setting, cost be damned. This is myopic, another simple minded approach that drives up the cost of medical care by 3-10 times, but theirs is not to question cost or cost containment....they are ebola specialists.
 
The tacit position of the CDC is that doctors are too recalcitrant and greedy that they cannot use sterile technque with multiple access of a vial, therefore should not reuse vials. Of course this is BS but the ebola mentality of the CDC is that there is no middle ground, no logical solution except for complete eradication of all potential factors, ignoring the solution of simply not reusing needles or syringes, not injecting any liquid into the vials, and using sterile technique on alcohol of the top of the vial. Their solution is to eliminate all interventional pain injections using contrast in the outpatient setting, cost be damned. This is myopic, another simple minded approach that drives up the cost of medical care by 3-10 times, but theirs is not to question cost or cost containment....they are ebola specialists.

you're right about the first part, but you know what?

our "colleagues" - not just pain, but GI, cards, etc - refuse to take standard well documented and scientifically valid methods of sterility to heart, and continue to allow the CDC the grandstand to trumpet that they know what to do.

their solution is not to eliminate pain injections, their solution is to prevent practitioners from doing the wrong thing - either financially or because they are too stupid to know that syringes/needles cant be "shared".

the cost of medical care doesnt need to go up 3-10 times - Big Pharma needs to be reined, and there is no reason whatsoever that 2.5-5cc doses of omnipaque cant be made, and no reason whatsoever that 10cc bottles are almost the same price as 20cc bottles.

personally, i would deem this a crisis. maybe it is time to consider contacting compounding pharmacies to distribute my omnipaque....
 
There may be hope.....50cc vials have just dropped precipitously from our buying group...I am attempting to verify the cost before I post it here....
 
So we are getting reviewed again and this has come up. They are asking that we use a new bottle of omni and marcaine/lido for every patient. I just can't do it....any new updates/arguments on this?
 
So we are getting reviewed again and this has come up. They are asking that we use a new bottle of omni and marcaine/lido for every patient. I just can't do it....any new updates/arguments on this?
i hated being forced to go single use but eventually i got used to it. Like 10 year limits on board certification. resistance is useless.
 
Cost, waste etc. Let's say realistically, if every pain clinic in the nation started operating this way tomorrow we would have a national shortage of all injectables by Thursday. It's completely asinine and irrational. It would be completely unsustainable....even for a week.
 
So we are getting reviewed again and this has come up. They are asking that we use a new bottle of omni and marcaine/lido for every patient. I just can't do it....any new updates/arguments on this?

We would just draw a vial up in a 20 cc syringe in a sterile fashion for the first patient of the day and then just squirt into each tray how much we’d need for each patient. Throw out any excess at the end of the day. The single dose vial was thus only accessed a single time.
 
We would just draw a vial up in a 20 cc syringe in a sterile fashion for the first patient of the day and then just squirt into each tray how much we’d need for each patient. Throw out any excess at the end of the day. The single dose vial was thus only accessed a single time.
interesting concept... may have to try that
 
We would just draw a vial up in a 20 cc syringe in a sterile fashion for the first patient of the day and then just squirt into each tray how much we’d need for each patient. Throw out any excess at the end of the day. The single dose vial was thus only accessed a single time.
then you have stuff you are going to inject into someone's spine sitting around on a tray with who knows whom walking by, sneezing, coughing, huffing and puffing....

and the question comes up, where do you store 20-30 trays?

i highly doubt that companies wouldnt change their practices in a very short period of time to accomodate for not making multidose vials.

from the CDC standpoint, 1 person catching Hep C or HIV or MRSA from a reused needle is 1 life saved, which is nothing compared to the supposed extra cost of meds.
 
then you have stuff you are going to inject into someone's spine sitting around on a tray with who knows whom walking by, sneezing, coughing, huffing and puffing....

and the question comes up, where do you store 20-30 trays?

i highly doubt that companies wouldnt change their practices in a very short period of time to accomodate for not making multidose vials.

from the CDC standpoint, 1 person catching Hep C or HIV or MRSA from a reused needle is 1 life saved, which is nothing compared to the supposed extra cost of meds.

Sorry, I wasn’t clear in my post. It stays in the syringe that was prepared until right before the next procedure when a new tray is opened. Then inject however much you’ll need into a well of the tray. We don’t open trays ahead of time.
 
Any infection, or incorrect medication given, no matter what the cause, will have plaintiffs looking closely at your technique for flaws. Also remember that the way the public finds out about infections is when a clinic has a string of them in the same day. If you are using one vial per patient it is unlikely you will get 15 patients on the same day developing the same meningitis.
Steroid meningitis echoes local incident
 
Sorry, I wasn’t clear in my post. It stays in the syringe that was prepared until right before the next procedure when a new tray is opened. Then inject however much you’ll need into a well of the tray. We don’t open trays ahead of time.

im pretty sure the infection control people wouldnt like this.

the biggest issue is the contrast. it is expensive, and only comes in 50 mL vials where i work, and i use what 1-3 m per case? huge waste of money and contrast, but i havent been able to figure out a way around it.
 
im pretty sure the infection control people wouldnt like this.

the biggest issue is the contrast. it is expensive, and only comes in 50 mL vials where i work, and i use what 1-3 m per case? huge waste of money and contrast, but i havent been able to figure out a way around it.
Get tbe 10ml omnipaque vials.
 
Get tbe 10ml omnipaque vials.
a few years ago the 15 ml vials were more expensive than the larger vials. something about volume discounts.
same with IV fluid - 500 ml bags cost more than 1000 ml.
 
Well it looks like I'm going to lose this battle. JACHO came in and told us we had to do this or else. I hate JCAHO btw....and not only single use vials but all multi-dose vials. Every vial we own can only be entered once. The amount of waste and money is going to be astronomical. So much so, I might cut down the number of injections I offer patients by half. I get paid regardless so who cares
 
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exactly. who cares. the system will still make a killing even with the added expense of single dose vials (something about site of service etc.). ultimately, the administrators of the pharmaceutical and bottle industry will make a killing with the extra cost of those single dose vials, and they will be happy too. they will then kick it back to the hospital administrators, who will get good ratings by JACHO, and the system will give them a big fat bonus for getting a good report...
 
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